quality
7 posts
Feb 25, 2008
1:07 PM
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When do straight flyers come into the breeding program?
If you say they don't, maybe you should listen to some of the old timers more closely to learn something. Like for example Bill Barrett, Bob Brown, and even Bill Pensom.
All these men used straight flyers in there breeding program. Do you now where & when?
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DeepSpinLofts
339 posts
Feb 25, 2008
1:36 PM
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Now that's a darn good question.
My thoughts on this issue would be that when; your family of rollers are too frequent in their rolling... and kitting as a unit has become a very serious problem.
Now I could be wrong, so please don't just take my word for it.
Hmm.....
Quite possibly the old timers used high flying rollers and not tipplers for this type of breeding experiment. There's a good chance the old-timers used straight flyers which belong to the same family thereby maintaining key biogenetic traits (ro-genes) within that family.
Maybe someone else has a better idea of how the old-timers did it.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2008 1:41 PM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
449 posts
Feb 25, 2008
5:46 PM
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Quality, what is your name? I read your profile and agree with you.
R-LUNA
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quality
11 posts
Feb 25, 2008
6:48 PM
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R Luna, 1st of all I'm From a small town north of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. My father once told me that my relatives in the states dropped the "U" off the end of our name.
I find it humorous that you would agree with me. You see my name is Don Lunau.
Pigeonpairadice Lofts
pigeonpairadice@hotmail.com
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
451 posts
Feb 25, 2008
7:02 PM
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WHAT A TRIP Don.. It's good to meet you.For me it's about quality and calibre first with NO COMPROMISE.. Thanks for putting your e-mail address ...I will e-mail you.
Richard Luna
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Scott
94 posts
Feb 25, 2008
7:08 PM
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Don, I have no use for them other than for fosters,I breed a stable family and I like to balance my matings in a smaller parameter,not hot to cold.
I find that some of my best producers come from the ones that come in a little hot with depth and then get a handle on it in a week or two and become solid as a rock , that is how it works in my family.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2008 7:08 PM
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quality
13 posts
Feb 25, 2008
7:29 PM
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If you put a pair of birds to stock & raise 6 young ones.
3 cocks, 3 hens, from them 1 hen rolls down, 1 cock won't kit, 1 hen is a champion in all aspects, 1 hen is a mediocore roller, 1 cock is a straight flyer, 1 cock is a good roller but infrequent.
What would happen if you put the straight flying cock to his full sister the champion in all aspects. And both birds were black badges.
Now what if the pair of birds you put together to produce the 6 young ones were:
1/2 brother & sister off the same cock.
their mothers were mother & daughter and 1st cousins to the cock.
If this full brother & sister produced 6 young ones what would you get.
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Scott
97 posts
Feb 25, 2008
7:36 PM
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Don,that is exactly the point, I don't want my pairs hitting all over the board , it is a never ending cycle,been there,done that.
I want much more consistancy , I have had birds like that in the past and you usualy see it in a very loose gene pool and or trying to balance the matings using a very broad parameter such as you are suggesting.
I am only refering to "my" birds and what works or doesn't work for "my" family
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2008 8:07 PM
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wishiwon2
45 posts
Feb 25, 2008
10:13 PM
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If you have an established family, which it appears to be due to the relatedness of the hypothetical pairing, whatwould be the value of continuing to use anything but excellent performers? You arent or shouldnt be trying to build someting or to compensate for something that isnt there ... I am by no means a top notch breeder, but, I want what Scott described, ... consistentcy ... first. I will then try to improve upon the individual aspects with in the matings such as increase work rate, add speed, etc, etc. That said i hope to be able to fix high quality traits initially instead of having to try and add them later or compensate for faults. I have been through the compensating routine, it is slow, frustrating and unproductive. There are enough variety of families around I think one could choose what they like and continue on with a stable established bloodline that doesnt need 'major tweaking'. Or in other words the should be no need to breed from a straight flyer.
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PR_rollers
591 posts
Feb 25, 2008
10:31 PM
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First I thing I do is evaluate that pair. If you put a pair of birds to stock & raise 6 young ones.
3 cocks, 3 hens, from them 1 hen rolls down, 1 cock won't kit, 1 hen is a champion in all aspects, 1 hen is a mediocre roller, 1 cock is a straight flier, 1 cock is a good roller but infrequent.
To me out of that 6 I got one good, one a champion,and a cock that's a good roller but infrequent,that percentage is low for me I want at least more good ones than just one ,I wouldn't even use that pair again I would switch them.or mate the good roller back to the mother.rather than the non roller.
and when you say " both birds were black badges." why does that certain marking matters.. just curious.
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Ralph....
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2009 7:07 PM
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quality
15 posts
Feb 26, 2008
8:43 AM
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First this is not a hypathetical question. This is a match up I did 5 or 6 years ago. Of the 6 young ones I raised,4 are still flying and 2 are in the stock pens.
The 2 cocks in the breeders are champions both in the air & in the stock pens. The 4 birds still in the air are;
1)An amazing spinner, but only 7'or 8' deep. (cock)
2)An amazing spinner, but infrequent. (hen)
3)A fasr flipper never leaving the middle of the kit. (hen)
4)A good spinner, but a little too deep. (cock)
Now what bird will go back to it's father this year?
The reason I put that they were both black badges, when putting real close relations to each other, if the birds are the same color this is 1 thing in the gene pool they have in common & that we can see.
The straight flyer gives you stability in your blood line. It is like outcrossing without entering new blood into the equation.
I have learned this through a friend that was passed to him from Bill Barrett. Bill used straight flyers regularly in his breeding program. I have tried it with both my bloodlines with great success.
My 2 bloodlines are Bill Barrett's and Bob Brown's, both lines proven to be champions. Of course I have had them for 15 years & they are now my bloodlines.
Don Lunau
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Scott
101 posts
Feb 26, 2008
5:54 PM
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Don, if it works for you,truck on buddy.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2696 posts
Mar 13, 2009
7:04 PM
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Has anyone try breeding from a straight flier and seen good result from that..I have a pair I wanted to breed but change my mind one is a hen who rolls very well with quality 20 to 25 ft..and the cock is the straight flier who nest mate are doing good but I figure why breed from him when you can breed from the sibblings that are not straight fliers.whats some of you guys take on this..
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2009 7:10 PM
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BA Rollers
204 posts
Mar 13, 2009
7:17 PM
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Better a straight flyer in the loft than a gay one.
Guaranteed your breeding results will be much better :)
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Steve S.
101 posts
Mar 13, 2009
7:22 PM
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Quality,
I am from the old school and we used the straight
flyers to get young birds to kit tight if they were having a problem staying together.
A straight flyer is good if it flys a good figure eight. Never rolls but is usefull in its own right.
Learned from the men you mentioned and roller men
that were here before Pensom.
Steve
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Bill C
277 posts
Mar 13, 2009
7:56 PM
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Hey Quality, In responce to your original post. Bill Pensom said that you want to breed towards the resistance in the birds. That is they all have roll some more, some less and some frequent and some roll downs ect. He often had birds rolling 50 to 60+ feet and if you breed them together you would get roll downs. Also he said if you flew 20 birds that roll 30 yards ( that is 90 feet ) they would all hit the ground. He also said never to breed two deep rollers that came into the roll the first year. Now having read all this in his books. There is a place for the staight flyer if you have birds rolling 50+ feet. They would not make the cut for a competition kit but they would be an awsome sight to behold and a most enjoyable kit to fly.
The straight flyer is showing the resistance to the roll and has complete control. Too stable in fact. But it would have a use if breed to some deep rollers that you did not want to get any deeper. There probably is not anyone today that would have that problem since most deep rollers today become sloppy or roll downs and are often the most unstable birds.
I have been doing an experiment on straight flyers and have found that you rarely get one that can go over four years with out rolling. Most of them come into the roll at 2 to 3 years. They can make good stable rollers. I dont know of anyone willing to feed such birds except me, but they come in handy with filling an A team when you lose birds to BOP or an over fly. They all have roll its all about the degree of control. Bill C
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Bill C
278 posts
Mar 13, 2009
8:02 PM
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I have not been able to fly much yet, but when I do for two weeks straight I will fly 5 at a time and make the A team all over for this year. ( I do have some hold over A Team birds but want to replace some ) When I am finished getting 23 birds ( this way I can take out three with out having to add one at the last minute ) I can guarentee that I will have about 17 or 18 birds 2 or 3 years or older for the main kit. I will have a few 1 year or 1.5 years old but most are those straight flyers I held onto. Bill C
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3307 posts
Mar 14, 2009
10:27 AM
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Stiffs produce stiffs, I have found. I will never again stock a stiff.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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wishiwon2
167 posts
Mar 14, 2009
10:10 PM
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Ralph, I know of 2 instances where a non performer was used as stock and produced good percentages of top quality offspring. In both cases, they were the only of their siblings that didnt perform and were out of parents that usually produced great kitbirds. In other words, they were the exception of their family. They were used by someone starting into the fancy. I dont know why someone with access to quality, sound rollers would choose to breed from a stiff. If you want to add stability, do it a little more subtly that to use a stiff. If you have flown a roller for 2 or 3 years and it hasnt had issues, in my opinion it is sound to use.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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fhtfire
1875 posts
Mar 14, 2009
10:59 PM
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Scott,
I have noticed that the birds I put in the Stock loft are the ones that came on strong and then became stable and solid birds...I was thinking about that just the other day....to be honest....90% of my stock birds bumped the first couple of times and then never again and they skipped the B team all together..they went right to the A team or A team caliper team and fit right in...most of the shifted into another gear....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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pigeon pete
232 posts
Mar 15, 2009
1:59 AM
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A staight flyer is not a stable roller.
Pete
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Scott
1873 posts
Mar 15, 2009
2:45 PM
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Dang Pete, you are making me think LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3318 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:19 PM
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Oh, dear Lord
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
1875 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:24 PM
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Actualy Nick I think he might be right to some degree, but it doesn't hold true for all straight flyers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2703 posts
Mar 15, 2009
4:00 PM
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Jon I agree with you..now I"m in a situation that I only have a few left to breed from because of BOP .one cock and three hen the other cock is the one that never roll.but I don't care if I am in this situation I still won't breed from him.I'm using foster to get the best I can from what I have with the one cock..
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
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pigeon pete
236 posts
Mar 15, 2009
5:59 PM
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A stable roller rolls and, can control the roll to a great extent by shutting off the roll or shortening the roll when low. A straight flyer is either a non roller, or is a roller that is scared of the roll, or doesn't like to roll for some reason (it may actually be a deep roller)and has the control to stop rolling. Often these birds if flown for long enough will roll. This often happens when the impetus to roll is irresistable, such as during the melee when landing, and I have kept straight flyers until they are 2 years old, at which point they rolled down.
To answer the question, when I am desperate, and I haven't got to that state yet,LOL
Pete.
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Scott
1879 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:02 PM
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Pete you will see it with such birds that come into the roll hot and scared than quit also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
237 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:04 AM
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Scott,
Exactly. It can happen with a good rooler that has an accident and it may shut the roll off for a few weeks or even a few months.
Pete
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Square
665 posts
Mar 16, 2009
12:09 PM
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its about what works for you, people talk about balence and expression, charcter. I have a cock bird that is a awsom breeder, it was flown for two years and never rolled but it hasent produced a non roller yet so, for me it has everything, Im not telling anyone to do the same just understand observation is the best tool....reguardless of what some say..
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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wishiwon2
168 posts
Mar 16, 2009
4:27 PM
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Im curious Square, If you never saw the bird roll in 2 years of flying, why did you select it to breed from in the first place ?
What criteria did you use to pair it up, to find its compliment as a mate?
Im just trying to figure out what planted the seed in your mind, "I ought to try that bird in stock". Its great that it is working out so well for you, I just dont understand how the idea came up to use it. For me, it isnt until I've seen some pretty good work from a bird that I begin to contemplate breeding from it. I will then watch it closely as an individual for a while, looking for weaknesses or faults, deciding if it is really worth a try or not. If the bird wasnt rolling at all, it would have never came to my attention to watch it closer.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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Square
668 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:14 AM
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Yea I liked the bird because it had everything I wanted bodywise and also great expression. it was off my foundation cock, that died in 99. I figured I would try it in the stock loft, and as a result I got the body type I like troughout my loft. So What is good for the next man Isn's alway good for me. Never saw the bird roll in two years but there was somthing abuot it that has worked for me, not to say it will work for everyone else. Oyea just alitle more history,, all its siblings rolled deep some really unstable the didnt make the program just him and his brother and the brother is another on of my stock bird's however he only rolled about 5ft but fast. So there you have it im willing to breed off a roller of mine that dosent roll and one that rolls 5ft. Hope things remain the same for my family of rollers...1
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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speedball
309 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:34 AM
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i created my line of birds from a hen that didnt roll. everywhere she went she bred traits i look for so i bought her for £20 or 17 dollers. best thing i ever did. that does not mean you breed of a non roller of unknown origin.
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2009 11:36 AM
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0221
113 posts
Mar 20, 2009
7:48 PM
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Quality, I think Bob Brown said, You only get the best from breeding off the best. You have a better chance producing good stable, hard rolling birds off the like. If I thought I needed to breed non performers into my family to inprove the line. Well I'm afaid I'd have to think about where I went wrong. Maybe time for some different stock. Good luck in the hobby.
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Scott
1897 posts
Mar 20, 2009
9:40 PM
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0221 , man you said a mouth full with that one, spot on !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Windjammer Loft
748 posts
Mar 21, 2009
6:10 AM
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Okay...let me oppose this side to you all. At what age do you consider a bird a "straight flyer"? How long do you give a bird to see if it will come into the roll,then? And does this mean that every bird that doesn't roll is a "straight flyer". What's the determining factor??
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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0221
118 posts
Mar 21, 2009
6:35 AM
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Paul, the determining factor may be based on Your family. Most late developing familys on average are at least flipping at 6 to 10 months of age. People that fly late developing rollers like say a name we all know, Herb Sparks for instance will give a bird 3 years or more. To perfect the roll. Where I'm comming from is here. How ever long Your willing to wait is up to you. But I say the best results will come from birds that are flown until they perfect the roll. At that point if You like the quality,kitting,depth,frequincy and all the things that meet Your expectations then thats when I say try it in your program. You only get out, what You put in. If You breed from nonperformers, expect the like. Oh yea I reserve the right to be wrong. LOL.
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j .wanless
690 posts
Mar 21, 2009
6:36 AM
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hi all
0221 you + bob brown got it spot on + we can not argue with bob brown.as bob was the greatest comp winner that ever lived.the records prove it .so if its good enough for him its good enough for me.
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Square
678 posts
Mar 23, 2009
1:14 PM
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man this Herb sparks is a lucky one, I could only hope to fly a bird for three years. I honesttly believe that not breeding of non flyers is a "CROCK OF SH$#" That is for me personally.. Im sure other people think diffrent and no disrespec to them, but if I was sheeplike then I woud be lost. It is OK to get advise from others but for me I need a solid foundation to back what im doing with thease rollers.. Ya know experence. Now if I just went with what I read or the other person said, I would still be trying to pin down what im diong in specific. You can do what everyone else says from the gettieup but if you con learn on your own,Great, Lessons learned from trial and error or the best in my opion. You can be sheeplike or work your own program with your own reality. The proof is in the product... Keepum rolling....1
Square
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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0221
127 posts
Mar 23, 2009
1:50 PM
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Square, If You think its sheep like to listen and learn from others, then why go to school? There are two ways to go through life, learn from other people's mistakes or make Your own. Most people choose to make there own and they do get alot of experience. I know people that have been in this hobby for a short time and fly outstanding rollers. I know people that have been in this hobby 30 plus years and only have 1 years experience, 30 times. I say to the newcommers, what ever You want to learn, avail yourself to a source of education.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 2:06 PM
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Square
680 posts
Mar 23, 2009
2:21 PM
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yea I hear ya But in school there is a set standard yakno mathmatics history and so on. Here in this sport/hobby there isnt a set standard,. Besides what our birds are supposed to do. I am willin to learn but I wanna choose my lessons base on experience not what some guy said. Dont get me wrong I am willing to learn off others but, like I said i choose what i take to heart. If I didnt I woulnt have any booted rollers, webbfoot pigeons, bulleyed birds and the list goes on and on, I kinda wanna learn my own lessons takin into consideration what others have said but not looking at it as %100 fact Ya see?> So yea I wanna learn but I do question stuff, some people still turn a bird backwards in hand to see if it's a good roller...LOL But not me anymore. So yea its diffrent than School... And yea you can learn from others without following them, or the masses,You can say someone said this or that but do you take their word or experience or make your own conclusion based on your own facts in your back yard???,,,People say alot but does it apply to you??? and that's what I mean by "Sheeplike" 1
Booker...
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 2:31 PM
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0221
128 posts
Mar 23, 2009
2:48 PM
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Square, I wasn't argueing with you. Its like learning to drive. Someone says and explans the key,gas,brake,turn signals ect ect. But when You take off for the first time, now Your learning to drive. I try only to answer on here, keeping in mind alot of readers are new in the hobby. So lets give the best advice. Good luck in the hobby.
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Square
682 posts
Mar 23, 2009
2:59 PM
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Yea I get it but if this hobby was as easy as driving or school we would all be golden. It's complacated and in my opion there is no easy way or set way to raise rollers. That all Im trying to point out. Here we dreve on the right side of the road and the stering wheel is on the left...LOL another countries its the other way around. I agree there are alot of folks new in the hobby and they should understand that there is no set way besides the basic care or pigeons and even that is diffrent in the eyes of the beholder. So you can drive just understand you cant always tune your vehicle like the next man, gotta figure out what type of fuel and practices work for you... thats all im trying to say,, you have some great points but I think sometimes we/I can get off the real deal and that is not only raising rollers but knowing your rollers.....Good stuff Bro. And school in China WOW thats another story,,,,,LOL 1
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Square
683 posts
Mar 23, 2009
2:59 PM
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Yea I get it but if this hobby was as easy as driving or school we would all be golden. It's complacated and in my opion there is no easy way or set way to raise rollers. That all Im trying to point out. Here we dreve on the right side of the road and the stering wheel is on the left...LOL another countries its the other way around. I agree there are alot of folks new in the hobby and they should understand that there is no set way besides the basic care or pigeons and even that is diffrent in the eyes of the beholder. So you can drive just understand you cant always tune your vehicle like the next man, gotta figure out what type of fuel and practices work for you... thats all im trying to say,, you have some great points but I think sometimes we/I can get off the real deal and that is not only raising rollers but knowing your rollers.....Good stuff Bro. And school in China WOW thats another story,,,,,LOL 1
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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wishiwon2
169 posts
Mar 23, 2009
3:32 PM
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Square,
What I think 0221 is telling us, and I agree, is that you are right, there are few set predictable presciptions that go into breeding or flying top quality kits of rollers. There are, however, many general principles that apply broadly. That means there are and will always be exceptions. We should look for and advise other to seek the general truths not the exceptions.
Use this thread for example; an exception is you may breed from a nonperformer and get some good rollers, however the general principle is breed from the best in your team. If you need a non peforming bird in stock to hlp add stability, you have previously made bad choices as to what you bred from.
Like begets like, its not a precise science or absolute but in general its true. Remember that truth is revealed through repeated discoveries, not by single experiments ...
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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Scott
1928 posts
Mar 23, 2009
3:40 PM
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Should these exceptions be used as examples?
(That means there are and will always be exceptions. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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0221
129 posts
Mar 23, 2009
4:24 PM
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Say Guys, I got off the topic. But we had a nice chat. I think there is no place in the breeding program for a nonperfomer. But there is a big difference between a straight flyer and a pigeon that has the ability to resist the fit. I hope to never have the need for either one.
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Scott
1929 posts
Mar 23, 2009
4:50 PM
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Interesting 0221, when I read the 3 year I thought "why bother" but the kicker to that statement is "to perfect the roll".
It reminded me of when I used to hear about McCully not wanting a bird to come in until the 18 mo plus mark,this always baffled me since my own birds go back to McCully via Sparks and if my birds aren't showing you solid potential by 8-9 mo it aint coming.
Once I got into McCullys writings what he was basicly saying was "polishing" out at 18 mo. plus , of which is what I see of my own best, they all come in at the 4-7 mark,some a little sooner.
But the cream of the cream is going to happen 18mo to 3 years, this is when the best of the best really come into their own.
Square, the bulk of my A-team is from 2-5 years old,if I couldn't fly old birds I might as well fly Fantails ,but I do not cut them out on whims either.
(Most late developing familys on average are at least flipping at 6 to 10 months of age. People that fly late developing rollers like say a name we all know, Herb Sparks for instance will give a bird 3 years or more. To perfect the roll. Where I'm comming from is here. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 4:52 PM
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winwardrollers
199 posts
Mar 24, 2009
8:24 AM
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Square
The roll gene is ressesive. Ask Kenny Billings if the Dummy cock rolled?
You can create a family of birds the way you did but why? You stated some good reasons; Like bodywise of bird, great exprression, was off foundation cock, all sibilings rolled deep, short but fast.(hard for me to see speed in five foot of rolling)
Sounds like your happy..how you flying against those around you comparatively?
I would not breed from a straight flyer..I guessing you already have birds that roll that can replace this particulair bird in the breeding pen...that is the direction I would take.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2009 8:36 AM
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Scott
1933 posts
Mar 24, 2009
8:38 AM
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Brad, but was the Dummy cock given the chance to develope ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
200 posts
Mar 24, 2009
9:29 AM
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Scott
You may know the story you tell me. At this point it doesn't matter because the gene's past on must have been the real deal.
I like what Pete said about straight flyer..can be roller downs if you give them time.
It hard to know how the gene pool will play out unless that you have a solid stud of roller breeders you have bottle necked the gene pool again and again then it is still not a given but our guestimations of the offspring has much more solidity.
bwinward
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