winwardrollers
6 posts
Mar 01, 2008
6:52 PM
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I was look for some more information on the "51" line of Plona's.
IRA76 #51 Blue Check badge.
Frank Martin had some of the "51" line does anyone else know of others that had the birds.
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Mar 01, 2008 9:46 PM
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Good Times Roll
17 posts
Mar 01, 2008
7:31 PM
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The last person that I knew of that had anything close to that line that was legit would of been Clint Hollingsworth who died back in the 90's and his birds were dispersed every where, A veterinarian in southern Ca. by the name of Mike Kelly helped handle the dispers of the birds, He might be able to help you, I dont have any contact info on Mike
RL
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Mongrel Lofts
535 posts
Mar 01, 2008
8:14 PM
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Hi,
Mike Kelly is a close personal friend of mine. If you want to send me your information I can pass it along to Mike.. If he has anything to add I can pass it on.. KGB
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winwardrollers
7 posts
Mar 01, 2008
8:53 PM
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Thanks RL and KGB
The birds that I Have come through Clint Hollingsworth and Don Miller. Frank Martin doesn't have birds any more, and my guess is that this "51" line would be hard to fly/handle for most, and few people hung on to them. I would like to get with someone that has a line of the birds. I have always liked the looks of Badges and the "51"line would work well with what I have now.
I am working on some badges that go to McCully "Tick" Cock and a dose of JCB-196-80. I have worked them on the Plona line of birds I have and started to have some good success but would like to find the "51 Line" and see if I want to go that route.
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Mar 01, 2008 9:48 PM
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COYOTE33
69 posts
Mar 02, 2008
9:35 AM
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Hey! brad can you give a little more detail on this 51 stuff, like the parents or maybe its brothers or sisters
i have a lot of plona stuff, most are not single digets,so maybe if i had more info i could help.
coyote
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Good Times Roll
18 posts
Mar 02, 2008
9:51 AM
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IRA-76-51 is off PRC-72-16187 x PRC-74-16252
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COYOTE33
70 posts
Mar 02, 2008
12:35 PM
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hey!brad
base on what RL said i do have that blood out of my 980
stuff i got from dick stephens, the 51 cock produced 4338 hen, that hen4338 with tri 76 946 produced the 980 cock that dick got from tom hatcher, i have a cock out of 980.
coyote
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MILO
885 posts
Mar 02, 2008
2:14 PM
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I was good friends with Frank. He still lives about a mile from me. He got out of rollers due to Coopers, and a remodel that ate up his yard. I has some of the 51 line, and they are as good as any, but I am afraid those are all gone. At least the ones he had.
c
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lproller
7 posts
Mar 02, 2008
2:52 PM
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Leo...has some of this blood line...
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winwardrollers
8 posts
Mar 02, 2008
8:13 PM
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Milo --if I could get a phone # of Frank or the city that he lives in that would be a great start for me.
Lproller--I'm not sure who Leo is?
Thanks everyone.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2008 8:13 PM
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winwardrollers
9 posts
Mar 02, 2008
8:18 PM
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Good times roll-- If you have anymore info. on this line of rollers send it to winwardrollers@hotmail.com
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2008 8:18 PM
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MILO
886 posts
Mar 03, 2008
8:26 AM
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Brad.
I won't give his number, but I can tell you he lives in Pacific Grove, CA. The zip is 93950. I'm sure he will give you info. He is an enthusiastic type, and your conversation will pretty much revolve around "I had this bird" and "I had that bird" kind of stuff. Good luck.
c
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lproller
8 posts
Mar 03, 2008
10:31 AM
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Leo...is a young fellow that posts on here from time to time...
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COYOTE33
71 posts
Mar 03, 2008
12:05 PM
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Hey brad! the 266 stuff has the 51 cock behine it the same stuff that monty neibel used in his family of champions
coyote
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winwardrollers
10 posts
Mar 03, 2008
4:28 PM
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Coyote--I went back 5 generation from 266 and could not see were 51 came in any were. I have both 266 and 51 blood but do not see how the two are related at any close distance. 266 is the father to 8409 the hen Monty took home from Clint Hollingswoth and returned to get more relations to 8409. These birds have some roll to them no doubt. The reason is that they are so tight in their relations, which is the key to all the good roller families being established. You will have to show me how 266 and 51 are related I don't see it.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2008 5:00 PM
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crystalpalace
321 posts
Mar 03, 2008
10:41 PM
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I have the pedigree paper of IRA-76-51 blue check badge cock. His sire was PRC-72-16187 red check badge and dam PRC-74-16252 blue bar badge. Stan Plona bred all three birds. My pedigree paper goes back to 1957. Leroy Smith breeders are three generations back on the pedigree. He was mated to PRC-76-9658 blue check self. Her sire was PRC-73-17048 mealy bar badge and dam PRC-74-16284 black badge. Both of these birds were bre by Stan Plona. Leroy Smith birds are three generations back of Stan Plona stock. Ray Sanchez.
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COYOTE33
72 posts
Mar 04, 2008
6:03 AM
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Hey brad!
a good friend of mine told me about the 266 stuff and like a fool i trusted him, i'll check my 266 pedigrees and get back to you.
coyote
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winwardrollers
12 posts
Mar 04, 2008
9:21 AM
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Ray
I have a pedigree only a couple of generations behind 51, and don't see where PRC-76#9658 comes in. Ray you must have a couple of generation pass from what I have. I would like to get that info. if I could. Send to Winwardrollers@hotmail.com or fax to 435-755-8529
thanks
brad winward
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tucknroll
3 posts
Mar 04, 2008
9:48 AM
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Brad,
The main guy you need to get ahold of is the breeder of both of those birds 51 and 266. Thomas Hatcher bred both of them and he would have the straight dope on both of those birds. He resides in New Mexico not to many guys have his phone number or address. When he lived in southern oregon several guys within the state had many of the 51 family. One guy comes to mind named Mark shaffer of Eugene Oregon thier were others as well. A very wealthy millionaire bought all of the 51 family of birds from Tom by the name of Dick Davis from Pebble Beach area. Frank Martin than got the birds from Dick Davis. Frank has had back problems and was forced to rid himself of the birds. If you look in the 85 APJ Roller Special you will see Franks setup and the birds of the 51 family pictured in it.
#266 is out of PRC 9613 Dark check (76) Cock and PRC 9658 Dark Check Self (76) Hen Behind 9613 is PRC 13042 (69) Red check Badge Cock and PRC 11216 (70) Black Check Badge Hen behind 9658 is PRC 17075 (73) Mealy Badge W/F Cock and PRC 16289 (74) Black Badge W/F Hen all the birds with the exclusion of #266 himself were bred by Stan Plona. 266 and 9686 were two of a very few birds used to cross the Charles Mc fae birds from Seattle Washington by Thomas Hatcher to create the famous Continental Strain of rollers.
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winwardrollers
13 posts
Mar 04, 2008
11:14 AM
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Tucknroll
Thanks for the info. I am really not looking for Hatcher but guys like Frank Martin, Mike Kelly, Mark Shaffer you mentioned in "hopes" I can find someone who has breed the 51 Line very close for a few generations or can give me info. on someone who has. Don Miller of Utah owned 266 back in 1984 that is were my birds are from. I have all the info. on 266 to the imports. Don used 92 and 8409 to produce some good birds they were 1/2 brother/sister with 266 being father to both.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2008 12:35 PM
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winwardrollers
14 posts
Mar 04, 2008
11:58 AM
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Tucknroll
Where can you get a copy or access of the 85 APJ Roller Special?
I may have access to one if Tom Monson has one.
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2008 11:59 AM
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COYOTE33
73 posts
Mar 04, 2008
1:01 PM
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hey! brad
i talk to that friend of mines rod lewis,he cleared it up for me,he had some 51 stuff mated to the 266 stuff, but i'll still check my pedigrees myself like you did. also i have the conntinental family and i know there is 51 stuff there, tom hatcher didnt cross all those birds with the mcfee stuff as some believe, he kept a lot of it straight plona/smith. you might not be interested in the conntinental family but the blood is there, im going to check for myself.
coyote
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tucknroll
4 posts
Mar 04, 2008
1:28 PM
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Hey Brad,
Unless somone has a copy they are selling on eggbid or another pigeon source or outlet your best bet would be to talk with Tom Monson. I have a copy of it but don't want to sell it. I also have the original copies of the couple issues of the magazine World Roller Happenings.
Coyotee just how much do you think you know about what Tom Hatcher did to create the Continental line?? I'm curious as to what your story is?
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COYOTE33
74 posts
Mar 04, 2008
1:52 PM
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tuck!
i was a good friend of dick stephens when he died. upon his death he told his wife to seen me all his birds. i got over a hundred birds from dick and his main breeders from the continental family. i also have all of dicks records, him and tom used to switch young birds from dicks pairs. when tom was going trough a divorce dick kept his birds for him thats when he bread the 980 cock thats based on the 946 stuff, he also told me what to do with the birds and how to breed them before he died.
coyote
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COYOTE33
75 posts
Mar 05, 2008
7:16 AM
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hey! tucknroll
what happen,i didnt here from you?
coyote
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tucknroll
5 posts
Mar 05, 2008
12:57 PM
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Hey Coyotee,
You answered my question and thats good enough. I'm sorry that you think that knowing Dick Stephens and getting his birds puts you at another level of intelligence. I happen to know Dick as well long before you may have known him. This takes me back to when he lived in and around Manhattan Beach California also knew him when he lived in Tacoma Washington and had pursued homers on "B Street. Happen to know Tom Hatcher very well as well. If you say you know the crosses he made thats your story but I happen to know what the original crossings to obtain the continental lines were via My bro Tom Hatcher. I know Tom went through a divorce and know Dick had his birds during that time nothing new here. Sad part about what your bragging about is I never ever seen a kit at Dicks worth crossing the street for. Anyone that has ever obtained any birds from Dick has yet to put up a kit thats even average yet alone competitive. I don't want to send the wrong message here because Dick was a good man. One of The best birds he ever owned was the old JLS cock # 23 Mated to #9 Which Produced #233 Cock. If you want a history lesson stay tuned I have no axe to grind with you just wanted to know your story plain and simple.
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COYOTE33
76 posts
Mar 05, 2008
3:40 PM
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What are you looking for? what point are you trying to prove? you ask me a question i gave you a simple answer. you are no body i need to prove anything to, i dont know you. if any thing i was just getting to know someone who had knowlege of the birds, i surly dont need to prove my intellect to you, its good that you knew dick longer than i and im glad your toms brother, what differents does it make. if its got to be like this, who's better, who knows dick better, we can end this now i really dont have time for it.
coyote
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2008 3:43 PM
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3757
683 posts
Mar 05, 2008
4:59 PM
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Tucknroll - It is interesting that you know about BCR-62-233. It is true that Dick's 23/9 was probably his best known pair JLS-53-23 and PRC-60-#9. 233 went to Bruce Cooper. Bruce is a legend in my book and has helped me tremendously.
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tucknroll
6 posts
Mar 05, 2008
6:27 PM
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hey! tucknroll
what happen,i didnt here from you?
Coyotee,
I was satisfied with your answer but it seemed like you wanted a response by the looks of you egging me on. So I responded to your question above and you heard from me loud and clear. I mentioned I do not have an axe to grind with you but getting the stories straight when guys read this stuff needs to be heard. Thats how stories become fabricated by someone that doesn't have the straight line on the birds. Pedigrees are only as good as the guy who writes them and only as authentic as the one who breeds them especially if your breeding in an open loft. Copulation by others usually will occur not knowing the exact parentage. Thanks for the time
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tucknroll
7 posts
Mar 05, 2008
7:13 PM
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3757,
Yeah I happen to know that 4013 (74) was the cock Bruce used quite heavily. I assume with your handle 3757 that you know who this cock is. Ivan Brauer from Friay Harbor Washington was a wealthy man who had several top pair of Pensoms in which Bruce did get a few and set the bar for Ivans widow in selling them after his untimely death. Many don't know the story of Ivan Brauer and how he died in a plane accidient. At Pensoms funeral Bruce bought 3757 as you already know and he was one of the few guys that got some of the untouchables. Cornell Norwood and Frank Hampson also recieved some of those very same untouchables the latter getting 6055 which was unflown. I know you know this stuff but its nice to reminise on the old pure Pensom family of birds with someone that know it well.
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George R.
271 posts
Mar 05, 2008
8:46 PM
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Hey Tuck
Thanks for the info , COYOTE if you are happy with all that ROLL you have at your loft then thats all that matters .
Good luck to both of you in the 2008 world Cup prelims
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Scott
143 posts
Mar 05, 2008
8:52 PM
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"Continental Strain of rollers. "
Just curious , but other than someone promoting "his" birds in "his" books,and him selling people the same birds with the same number bands, what made the "continentals" famous ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 6:04 AM
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COYOTE33
77 posts
Mar 05, 2008
10:27 PM
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tucknroll!
i was just having a conversation, was not trying to egg you on,i dont know. you must have something to prove because all of that wasn't even necessary. it seems you are reading in on words that are not even spoken, or someone is feeding you something you want to believe.you seem to have all the info i hope you help someone.
george r i appreciate your comments thats positive
scott, i'm going to let tucknroll speak on that, since he is toms hatcher's brother
coyote
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3757
684 posts
Mar 05, 2008
10:36 PM
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Tucknroll - Thanks.
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tucknroll
8 posts
Mar 06, 2008
6:01 AM
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Scott,
Nothing differrent than making the Jacconette strain of birds what they are today. Taking two highly inbred lines and crossing them onto one another creating high brid vigor. Bottmline the angle presented was they all constituted a pheno type that included grouse leggings or muffs. Thats the symetrical bird of the 21st century. Charles Mcfae from Seattle Washington had a very tightly bred family that sported the muffed grouse legged pheno type. Tom Hatchers 9686 smith lavendar cock had grouse leggings and he wanted to raise a family that were consistant in that trait and good roll with the est of them. Kinda catchy and everone has an angle to some degree. Interestingly enough we tend to lean towards history on the birds which is so far and beyond where the birds are today but I think its mainly away of making ones self feel he has the real deal when in essence we have made improvements but this is away of giving acknowledgement to our forefathers as well as respect. Without them the pioneers of our sport we would have nothing to found our future upon.
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Scott
144 posts
Mar 06, 2008
6:06 AM
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Actualy Laron I left out a word which lost the context LOL ,this is what it should have read "but other than someone promoting "his" birds in "his" books"
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Alohazona
407 posts
Mar 06, 2008
9:57 AM
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Tuck,
I work several angles of the Continental's,from the Hatcher/Hollingsworth side,to the Low Freeze side,to the #425 side,P.cookie and more.The Continentals have won the fall fly regionals for me,as well as took the top three positions for our futurity fly here in Hawaii.The futurity fly had Jaconettes,campbell/billings,Henry Cook lines of birds,panel judged on three seperate occasions.A side note, the first place was a Continental but bred by another fancier.The Continentals have a character all their own,of the different familys I have ,they are still my fav's,I have had them the longest and present a challenge to me,which I'm sure I will address eventually,lol.....Aloha,Todd
Scott,
I'm not sure what your angle is regarding Tom's books or the Continentals being famous or not?Tom put out 3 books showcasing the Birmingham roller involving not just himself,but many of the top historic roller men,I consider them to be a good read.Are you implying that Tom was making a name for himself as well his Continental strain?Are you also implying that the Continentals are not your preference in Birmingham rollers?what is your angle?
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COYOTE33
78 posts
Mar 06, 2008
10:21 AM
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scott
i notice that a lot of guys seem to be upset with dick and tom for (giving) guys across the country good birds and i know they made a lot of money doing it. but these are good birds. another fact is everything was not cross as his brother mention. the continentals are a plona and smith base bird as he alluded to with the 9686 cock and there are still pure smith and plona in the family.dick told me that the mcfee stuff was imported and that the to families
were very closely related.
alohazona, i appreciate you speaking on the family there are a lot of guys that fill the way do as well.
coyote
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JMUrbon
391 posts
Mar 06, 2008
10:40 AM
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I have seen birds that Dick Stephens sold to half a dozen guys in my area that couldn't produce a kit of rollers if you gave them 100 years to do so. The only thing I have ever seen from Dick Stephens that was worth anything was a fancy binder and some neatly hand written peigrees. The birds that accompanied the pedigrees weren't worth the feed they ate. JMHO though. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 11:03 AM
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COYOTE33
79 posts
Mar 06, 2008
11:13 AM
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you are probably right JM if you are talking about the old family of pensoms dick had, those birds took forever to come in, but not the continentals, different family pal.
you would have to very patience with the old family but the continentals kick a.. if you know how to fly them?
i have a friend in NC thats flying the continentals the last couple of years he has already produced a champion.
coyote
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JMUrbon
393 posts
Mar 06, 2008
11:30 AM
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Couldn't honestly tell you what they were other than from Dick Stephens. But they wouldn't hardly kit let alone roll. Not saying that there werent good birds out there somewhere from Dick but it has been my experience that when somebody starts concentrating on selling birds rather than on producing and flying quality birds then the stock soon goes down hill. JMHO. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
145 posts
Mar 06, 2008
12:09 PM
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Laron, no reason at all except for clarifying the context of my original post.
Todd- I'm glad that they are working for you ! but the fact is without the self promotion in the books and useing such to sell birds, nobody would even know what a "Continental" is,again if they are working for you ,good job !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
146 posts
Mar 06, 2008
12:16 PM
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(scott
i notice that a lot of guys seem to be upset with dick and tom for (giving) guys across the country good birds and i know they made a lot of money doing it. but these are good birds.)
Actually, it is the exact opposite from the reason above, the fact is they took advantage (money) of new fly flyers that didn't know any better for years,and everyone that had been around for over 5 minutes new this.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 12:17 PM
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JMUrbon
398 posts
Mar 06, 2008
1:09 PM
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Scott that is exactly rite. all of the fliers that I seen with these birds were new to the hobby. Several no longer fly birds at all and none of the others have the birds from Dick. After a couple seasons they started seeing what we had been telling them. They WASTED their money. Dick turned into a feather merchant.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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COYOTE33
80 posts
Mar 06, 2008
1:28 PM
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JM
could it be that these newbies just couldnt handle the strain? pensom rollers are a very strong strain that's one of the reason dick went to tom hatcher continental line and he said this himself. people just have time to wait anymore especially with the hawk problems we have, so maybe the strain was not for newbies.
coyote
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JMUrbon
399 posts
Mar 06, 2008
1:40 PM
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Nah I dont believe that is the case at all. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
148 posts
Mar 06, 2008
3:25 PM
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Coyote , they only get hard to fly when pedigree bred ,in other words the wrong critea used for selection.
Good birds including hardcore Pensoms will show you potential in the first year, the second and third year they really polish out as far as quality.
Good birds roll no matter what, it is only once they mature that handling come's into play , and even then it isn't to make them roll it is to get the highest potential out of them as far as quality and to some degree higher workrate,I know this because I fly such birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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tucknroll
9 posts
Mar 06, 2008
3:30 PM
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Hey gents,
Just to clean up things so they don't get misunderstood When I said Dick never flew a kit worth crossing the street for I was referring to Dicks birds period not Tom Hatchers birds different family all together. Lets not get that confused forsake of arugument. Todd you have the continentals that were developed by Tom Hatcher I never said anything negative about those birds.
Charles mcfae birds were a closely knit family from Fred Taylor of Seattle Washington.The ones that are history buffs or white beards of the sport will know who he is. He was able to train a kit that would break on either end of his grounds at his estate on a regular basis the training of his kits were un paralled bar none. He never uttered a word of how this was done and took it with him when he passed.
you are probably right JM if you are talking about the old family of pensoms dick had, those birds took forever to come in, but not the continentals, different family pal
Coyotee do you realise that the birds Dick had in the early 60's and late 50's were better than the present stock he owned up until his death? Remember in an earlier post I said he had homers. He gave up the rollers for awhile to focus on homers and than tried to regain the birds in which he had previous to his time with homers but they were not of the same calibre. As far as training goes with each family it is different. One must adjust his management skills to suit the strain of rollers in which he chose. To get the most from any family of birds it is best to ask the one that developed the family just what it takes to get the best bang for your buck on fly day. Thier are so many little idosyncracies per each family that it would take a book to sort it all out and I'll leave that for another time.
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Scott
150 posts
Mar 06, 2008
3:59 PM
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"Scott - Why was this addressed to me? "
oops Laron, that should have been meant for Tuck,sorry
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 4:00 PM
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COYOTE33
81 posts
Mar 06, 2008
4:06 PM
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tucknroll your right, i can agree with you on most of those points but not all. base on a conversation that myself and laron have talked about for years, the family of birds dick had in the 50's 60's were better.but then to say you never saw a kit worth anything from that point on is puzzling when i've seen other guys with these birds and they have done very well, not just me. the only thing i questioned dick on is why did he get rid of the family he had in the 90's and went to the continentals,well thats pretty obvious now, so to correct you, he had continentals only when he died not the old family and hatcher traded back and forth with young birds and gave him a compliment on how he improved the continental family.
coyote
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