Missouri-Flyer
1462 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:07 PM
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check email Scott
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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George R.
323 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:34 PM
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What about me Jerry !!!
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Missouri-Flyer
1463 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:44 PM
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LOL George..email address?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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George R.
324 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:46 PM
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g1ruiz@cox.net
Thanks Jerry
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Missouri-Flyer
1464 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:51 PM
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on its way George.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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sippi
104 posts
Mar 09, 2008
8:55 PM
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Ty you just couldnt stand it could you. LMAO Sorry I missed your post Scott. The color birds are in Florida also. I will be putting them up in 09. I really enjoy these color topics. Hasnt been a good one in a while. Post the crested Hector. Cliff how about emailing me the article at psisk@hughes.net. I just posted my "hard color" birds on ebay for three dollars a piece. Thats what they would bring at the meat market. Good birds but come into roll late and some never roll. At least not for three years.
Sippi
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Scott
194 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:16 PM
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( I just posted my "hard color" birds on ebay for three dollars a piece. Thats what they would bring at the meat market. Good birds but come into roll late and some never roll. At least not for three years.
Sippi )
Sippi, what made them good birds then ?
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
106 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:21 PM
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They kit well, roll frequent, and have decent style and velocity. I lost most to an overfly, including my stock birds and yes it was stupid to want to see them "one more time". The Turners I have are faster and more frequent. But I will admit I have culled more for not kitting as well as I want.
Sippi
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Scott
196 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:38 PM
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Yes, stability is a problem with them and is why most are crossing them on other families.
JoeBob told me if he had to do it over again he would have approched it different and tried to breed towards stability without going outside the family.
You just have to cull hard and breed them towards what you want,just a process, we all have to work out bugs within our birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
107 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:54 PM
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Scott I got nothing but time and if I still had a couple of those stock birds would not have changed families. But I have always liked different colored birds in my kits and these give me that. They may all be bald heads and grizzles in a few years. I know nothing about colors and breed for the roll. Regardless of family. I like fast, deep and smooth.
Sippi
ps I also much enjoy the color debates between you and Cliff.
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Ty Coleman
48 posts
Mar 10, 2008
4:59 AM
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Sippi i realy didnt me to start anything and my original question hasnt realy had much feedback lmao.But overall its been a good post.
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kcfirl
351 posts
Mar 10, 2008
6:41 AM
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Joe Houghton sure did not speak about any of the birds flown at the convention to me like they were the best he'd ever seem. He did say it was hot and humid and that some guys were oohing and ahhhing but that he was wondering why since the birds did not display top quality spin by any means.
On the subject fo rollers with crests, they can happen. Chan Grover has a picture of a roller with a crest back in the mid 40's in Pensoms loft. Many different breeds were used in the creation of the BR - it is possible that they could pop up.
Regards,
Ken firl
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Missouri-Flyer
1465 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:37 AM
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Now if that isnt the total opposite of what Cliff said about Houghton from the convention...Now I am really lost..Were they the best or not?..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Scott
202 posts
Mar 10, 2008
8:23 AM
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Jerry, most guys were flying young birds, couple that with the heat and moult and there you go.
Jays birds were rolling as individules, they were fairly deep with good spin but fought the roll coming out, if they were young birds as I suspect they were showing a whole lot of potential if the deep ones hold up until mature, as for the best ever seen, hmmm maybe the best of the convention, which I would aggree with based on what I saw.
There was one kit that I missed which was Teesdale (sp) I was told that they were enjoyable to watch but I missed that one as I was riding with JoeBob and we stayed to clean up the lunch hall,according to Coyote he doesn't fly the Turners
It is worth noting that these guys did an fantastic job on this convention and it was truely exceptional.
One thing that stuck out to me was how many kits had outbirds and then the kit would just split up after a short while, but again with the heat and moult things get goofy.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 8:35 AM
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Ballrollers
1088 posts
Mar 10, 2008
9:12 AM
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I do know that Jay was flying young birds because he lost his holdover A-kit to an overfly. I didn't see them fly at the convention because I was setting up for the lawn show and Futurity Fly, so I only heard from many who said they performed with excellent frequency, depth and speed. The only two kits with significant out birds both had hawk attacks...Lathan Collin's Hardesty family and Wendall Carter's Jake n Bakes. Gregg Truedale's kit flew for over an hour...kitted like glue....and broke consistantly the entire time. He flew a few Turner birds in his kit, but most were Hatcher Continentals.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 9:17 AM
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Ballrollers
1089 posts
Mar 10, 2008
9:28 AM
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Ty,
By the way, I'm no wizard at the genetics of colors and modifiers, but I'd say the bird you posted in your first picture is a reduced blue bar. The reduced modifier shows up in barred birds as a pinkish bar. Dominant opal usually shows up as much whiter bars...same thing in checked birds. You should know that the following flyers in North Carolina breed and compete with reduced birds in their lofts: Joe Bob Stuka-World Cup Champion, Clay Hoyle-20 bird National Champion, Jay Yandle-11 bird National Champion, Charlie Stack-20-bird National Champ, Wendall Carter-source of one of Charlie's two families he is flying, the other being Turners, and myself...with my first wins as regional qualifier in the 2008 World Cup and the NBRC National Championship in the Fall Fly. Based on that record, I'd say you can breed and compete with them, in good company, if you keep performance as your primary goal and don't get lost in the pretty colors.
YITS,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1090 posts
Mar 10, 2008
9:33 AM
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Ken,
I 'll dig up his (Joe Houghton's) post for you.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 9:55 AM
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Ballrollers
1091 posts
Mar 10, 2008
9:46 AM
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Here you go, Ken and Jerry. I used part of this quote in the article that I wrote for the NBRC Bulletin about the convention. In reviewing what he said, I believe that he meant that Jay's birds were the best that he saw at the convention, not that he had ever seen, as I first thought. It's interesting how two top flyers from the Northwest can watch the same kit and come away with the complete opposite opinion about how the birds performed coming out of the spin... you can see how one has an agenda and will see only what he wants to see.....that's one of the things that makes this discussion and judging these birds so difficult.
10 Oct 2007 Weds:
"Cliff, It is understandable why you couldn't get around to all that you'd like too. You guys did a magnificent job, and it was a good convention. I was surprised at the distance we had to travel between kits, I had no idea you were all spread out so far apart. Regardless, I had a good time, and I'm just selfish enough that, that matters to me.
I have no problem with you quoting me. I thought that Jay's were by far the best birds. It was interesting to listen to comments and opinions of others with regard to the various kits as we traveled around. It was clear to me, that there is a decided difference of opinion of what constitutes quality performance. In my opinion, what set Jay's kit apart was that his birds for the most part, went into the roll, and exited cleanly He did not have as many rolling as other kits may have had, but the others were plagued with birds that at the end, would twizzel, flip-flop and mill around. What I saw were birds rolling deeply, cleanly, exiting cleanly, and immediately returning to the kit, and were doing it in concert. Having said this, I understand that molt was a problem for everyone, and that time of the year isn't the ideal flying time for competition especially. Nevertheless, in spite of it all, Jay's birds, on that weekend, were the best.
You all did a magnificent job of hosting all of us, and made everyone feel welcome. I too would have like to been able to set down with you, and just chat rollers for a while. Everyone enjoys seeing colorful pigeons, but everyone's enjoyment is far greater watching a truly classic spinner do it's thing, which may very well be one of your standard colors or patterns. Pursue the quality performance, forget about color. In the long run, you'll be pleased you did.
When you travel about, keep an eye open for my wife, Bonnie. She teaches Dental Radiology at Portland Community College ( have over 20 years) and is very active with the ADA, on the accreditation board. Travels allot!
If ever I can be of assistance, don't hesitate to ask............Yours in the Sport, Joe Houghton "
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 9:55 AM
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Scott
203 posts
Mar 10, 2008
1:20 PM
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Maybe thats what happens when you spend the last 20 years flying Racers Cliff, it was in your face obvious for anyone that knows the difference.
Go to Earls where this same exact thing was just talked about, and I didn't respond to the topic.
Cliff I'm a realist where it comes to my birds and others, I will give a bird or birds thier due no problem,we all put in way to much work into them not too.
Like I said earlier, it is common with deeper youngbirds, hell mine do the same , just the way they are , the good ones straighten out though.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
204 posts
Mar 10, 2008
1:27 PM
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Cliff ,
After re-reading that, are you sure that it was "Jays" kit that he was refereing to and not Teesdales (sp) ?
What he wrote makes no sence to reality,but sounds more like what I was hearing about Teesdale team, that was the only kit people were talking about at the convention I was at.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1092 posts
Mar 10, 2008
1:35 PM
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Oh, I'm sure he was referring to Jay's kit, Scott. I discussed it with him before I quoted him in my article describing Jay's kit. As I said, I wasn't there, so I am relying on eye-witness accounts. So you are saying that Joe Houghton cannot recognize quality performance after a lifetime in rollers and developing a solid family of rollers? But of the kits that I saw, Truesdale's was the kit of the convention based on their performance that day. They didn't have quite the depth...but the consistant work rate, speed, and quality waere excellent. He had 'em right...and only a color bird or two! LOL!
YITS,
Cliff
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Scott
205 posts
Mar 10, 2008
1:59 PM
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Well Cliff, There is one I won't be asking to judge,thanks for the heads up !.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 2:11 PM
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kcfirl
353 posts
Mar 10, 2008
3:34 PM
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cliff,
don't get me wrong here, I am sure that guys in every area of the country have good birds, and that you guys are as competitive as any area in the coountry. And it must be obvious to anyone who knows anything about the flyers in North America that Jay Yandle and Joe Bob Stuka have put up some awesome kits.
OK, now that we've got that out of the way.
Here is what you said about Joe's thoughts on Yandle's birds in your earlier post on the previous page: "Joe Houghton picked Jay Yandle's "color birds" at the convention as some of the best he has ever seen".
That means they were either some of the best BR's he has ever seen or that they were some of the best colored BR's he has ever seen. Either way, high praise.
Then you posted the quote istself: "Jay's birds, on that weekend, were the best."
Cliff there is a big difference between "the best he's ever seen" and "on that weekend, were the best".
Of course Joe Houghton can see a good roller, that's not the issue. The issue to me is that I don't want to see Joe Houghton misquoted. He thougth Jay's birds were the best of the kits flown on a crappy weekend to fly. That's the bottom line.
Regards,
Ken
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Ballrollers
1094 posts
Mar 10, 2008
4:34 PM
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Ken,
I am not bragging about these birds or saying they are the best, though I will say that they are as good as any other family out there. But I am presenting hard evidence and other opinions from your part of the country to defend this family against Scott's misguided criticism and sweeping generalizations that don't hold water. You also made a good point. I don't want to see ANYBODY misquoted. That's why I corrected myself and posted the correct information. I will politely concede this particular point. It is not really the issue. The point that I am trying to make is not whether they were the best. But here we have one experienced roller man criticizing a family of birds and saying they finished sloppy as young birds and didn't kit, and another experienced roller man from the same part of the country and flyng the same basic family as the other, applauding the way these snapped out of deep spins and returned to the kit immediately. Both cannot be true, now can they? We are talking about opposite ends of the spectrum, not minor differences in performance. And of course, the critic now attacks his senior in the hobby, because his opinion doesn't fit his agenda.
Anyway, the flying conditions were not optimum, no question there. I have not seen guys really press their birds at a convention either. But I will say , seeing any man's birds just once or twice and those rare occasions when it is not during a big fly, means little. If you see a man qualify 5 times or more for the finals and never finishes in the top 10-20 as a finalist... now you may have sufficient grounds to question the validity of his birds. The facts are that EVERY family has its share of culls, mediochre performers, and excellent performers. Men can't win consistantly in competitions with any given family that has overcooked birds that don't kit and don't hold up.It is an absurd point of view, and a discredit to anyone holding this view. And it is, indeed, unfortunate, when any roller man uses his experience in the hobby to attack other roller men and other families of birds.
In the Sport,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 4:53 PM
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kcfirl
354 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:02 PM
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Cliff,
I agree with what you say.
Ken
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Ballrollers
1095 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:11 PM
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Gosh Scotty, whatever you say, buddy! Glad to be of service in helping you find good judges. You and I both know that there are no perfect judges. They all have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to their judging opinions; their interpretation of the rules, their estimation of distance, and their identification of quality performance. As I recall, Joe got some excellent comments about his judging from the boys in New York (some of whom are basing there breeding programs around his family of birds) when he judged there last fall. I guess they don't know how to evalute performance either. LOL!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 5:13 PM
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Ballrollers
1096 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:14 PM
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Thanks, Ken. I'm glad we are communicating and understanding each other.
YITS,
Cliff
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Ty Coleman
49 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:30 PM
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 Is this better Scott lol--what color is this called lol
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Scott
206 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:30 PM
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Cliff , I have been totaly wrong as were others, you are right they balled it up tight and snapped out of the roll clean as a whistle , my mistake ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
I didn't talk to Jay at the convention, but I suspect some of those birds were young. He
definitely had some deeper birds, however, as I watched I noticed that some did not
come out of the roll cleanly. Since he does so well in the 11 bird fly's, with high standards
for quality spinning, I suspect that he had his best tucked safely away, and flew younger birds
that may yet improve as they get older. Of course, I may be wrong. LOL
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Scott
207 posts
Mar 10, 2008
5:40 PM
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(Anyway, the flying conditions were not optimum, no question there. I have not seen guys really press their birds at a convention either. But I will say , seeing any man's birds just once or twice and those rare occasions when it is not during a big fly, means little. If you see a man qualify 5 times or more for the finals and never finishes in the top 10-20 as a finalist... now you may have sufficient grounds to question the validity of his birds. The facts are that EVERY family has its share of culls, mediochre performers, and excellent performers. Men can't win consistantly in competitions with any given family that has overcooked birds that don't kit and don't hold up.It is an absurd point of view, and a discredit to anyone holding this view. And it is, indeed, unfortunate, when any roller man uses his experience in the hobby to attack other roller men and other families of birds.
In the Sport,
Cliff )
Actualy Cliff ,I just enjoy invisioning you spitting and sputtering all over your key board with the viens sticking out of your neck with your head about ready to explode as you are sticking pins in your little "Scott" voodoo doll , that little thought just kinda keeps me going LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
51 posts
Mar 10, 2008
6:01 PM
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Scott you know youre not right! lmao
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Ballrollers
1097 posts
Mar 10, 2008
6:31 PM
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Scott
The best to you too. I also enjoy our little chats and sharing differing points of view. Far from sputtering, I am laughing out loud and it only adds to the overall experience of roller forum discussions.
YITS,
Cliff
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sippi
113 posts
Mar 10, 2008
6:38 PM
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LMAO keep it up
Sippi
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Ballrollers
1098 posts
Mar 10, 2008
6:53 PM
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You're enjoying this way too much, Paul! LOL!
Cliff
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Ty Coleman
52 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:08 PM
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Cliff after hearing Scott im starting to picture you as a Frankinstein looking tizzy trowing voodoo type person lmao Ty
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Ty Coleman
53 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:10 PM
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Why do people post pics of birds asking about the color if color doesnt matter to them just a thought!
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Scott
210 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:32 PM
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Ty , Cliff knows that I have a 300 lb wife that is as mean as she is ugly and that she doesn't mind getting bloodied up in a brawl for her little pumpkin (me), he knows when to pull the plug
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
56 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:37 PM
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Scott although we have a difference in opinion ---- ive enjoyed this post color rollers rule! Ty
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Scott
211 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:39 PM
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Sure they do buddy, inbreed the hell out of them and see what pops up LOL
To bad Cliff won't give you the whole story, it aint what you think with what you think.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 10, 2008 8:32 PM
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Ty Coleman
58 posts
Mar 10, 2008
7:45 PM
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Scott im thinkin about flying in 08 but im sure about 09 so will see . where are you from?
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Scott
212 posts
Mar 10, 2008
8:37 PM
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I'm in N. Calif Ty.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
60 posts
Mar 11, 2008
4:48 AM
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wish u were closer i would love to fly my colored birds against your standards Ty
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Ballrollers
1100 posts
Mar 11, 2008
5:06 AM
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Ty,
Scott said, "Sure they do buddy, inbreed the hell out of them and see what pops up LOL
To bad Cliff won't give you the whole story, it aint what you think with what you think"
I can assure you....if this family of rollers weren't the real deal; if their performance was not among the best in frequency, speed, depth and quality; if they had problems kitting; if they didn't hold up; if highly inbreeding them brought out undesireable recessive traits; if it were necessary to outcross back to original Pensom blood to keep them stable(which are all a part of Scott's fanatical delusion), neither I, nor any of the other veteran, competition roller men that breed and fly this family would be breeding and competing with them, if these things were true. We would have switched to another family long ago. I would be the first to admit their faults and their problems. None of it has any basis in reality, only in Scott's mind.
Like Governor Spitzer of New York who publically brought down men in office for their lack of moral character, only to be busted for his participation in a prostituion ring, I find in life, that those who crow the loudest usually haved the most to hide.
Good luck with your birds.
Clff
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2008 5:20 AM
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Scott
223 posts
Mar 11, 2008
6:50 AM
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Ty, if you are new and want to compete never lock yourself in on anything to make a point, it is a long journey.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
61 posts
Mar 11, 2008
6:59 AM
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im gonna get on the sidline guys yall have passed my knowledge.But i will add im gonna fly colored birds, Turner birds to be exact and after i get a handle on my feeding and handling and caring for the birds im sure they will speak louder than i can. Ty
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Ballrollers
1102 posts
Mar 11, 2008
8:58 AM
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I don't think that you will be dissappointed with your decision, Ty. If they don't perform to your expectations....try another family after you have worked with these a few years...I know I would....
YITS,
Cliff
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Ty Coleman
63 posts
Mar 11, 2008
4:55 PM
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Cliff i have no doubt about the birds it's me thats gonna be the biggest set back but im learning.
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sippi
119 posts
Mar 11, 2008
5:13 PM
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I didnt get to check and enjoy this last night but yes Cliff I do enjoy this. Mostly because the Birmingham roller was, is, and will be a moving target for years to come and maybe forever. Anyone who thinks thier birds look like the original English birds of which all these supposedly "pure" birds came from need to look at some old pigeon mags. Besides that the Oriental was used in its creation and once they were all muffed. Only Hector has pure birds based on that.
Sorry Scott.
Sippi
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2008 5:14 PM
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