smoke747
833 posts
Apr 22, 2008
12:48 AM
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Laron,
I was reading your post on the subject of 1220 vs 0016.You made some good points. The problem is, most will always side with what they have in their lofts and see things for what they are. The 1220 line was not cultivated to compete as 0016 was. The spin is not faster in the 0016 birds but are harder workers with a high percentage of hard workers than I have seen in the 1220 birds. Charlie Saldana and Kevin Adams got those birds to work but they flew higher and longer. I used to live by the 1220 x Lehmeyer matings. The birds either got stronger or deeper, in any case they became to hard to manage. There are some from the old stuff that would now be of use to me.
The bottom line is, knowone wants to take the time to cultivate their own strain, most don't know how, so they get rid of all their birds and buy a whole nother family,as if they didn't have not one quality bird before.
honestly speaking, the 0016 fam is a better rounded fam.
just my thoughts
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 12:48 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
611 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:03 AM
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For the record.... let me get this straight.
You are stating that the 0016 line of Birmingham Roller Pigeons have been cultivated for competitive purposes more outwardly than the 1220 line.
Am I correct?
....however
The spin is faster in the 1220 line of roller pigeons, but the 0016 line of rollers are harder workers in the air compared to what you have seen in the performance bred 1220 birds.
Correct?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 1:04 AM
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smoke747
835 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:13 AM
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The spin in the 1220 birds is not faster or slower, about equal,but the 1220 would have a slight edge which most would not notice. The variables in the 0016 birds I am talking about are, higher percentages of quality performers, frequency, smaller, fly slower, lower, less non performers, and they develope earlier which could be bad depending on the handler. They are Birminghams, so they go back to Pensom some where some how.
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 1:26 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
612 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:18 AM
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Which line of Birmingham Rolling Pigeons would you prefer to work with if they were bred correctly over the years before you had obtained them?
The #0016 line
....or
The #1220 line
{P.S.} Now please be straight forward here.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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smoke747
836 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:21 AM
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a mixture of both. Some of my smoke birds have 1220 birds in their background.
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 1:28 AM
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Mark
18 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:23 AM
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Keith,
I have to agree with EVERYTHING you said about the 1220 line. The one thing you might have left out is the fact that some will come down from a dot. LOL. On a serious note, The 1220 line (if obtained from a fancier that has kept them straight)has been one of the best kept secrets here in So Cal. Great line of blood if handled right.
Take care,
Mark
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DeepSpinLofts
614 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:36 AM
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Okay now this is good to know. You have highlighted some very important things for me.
Hmm... let's see here.
Ahh yes.... in order for us to build a respectable family of performing rolling pigeons we must undeniably start off with the best breeding stock available. Don't you agree?
Below I have a picture of some young performance bred rolling pigeons out of the Stan Plona strain of Pensom rollers. I want you to examine them and tell me which of these 5 birds look more like that of the 1220 line of rolling pigeons (which of course are also Pensoms).
From left to right there's a red bar, dun, white, oddside red badge, dark check and tortoiseshell.
Click on photo for larger image
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
615 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:44 AM
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I knew you would say that!
If I were fortunate enough to get my hands on some of that bonafide quality 1220 stock.... then I would probably cross it into the same family as the dark check in the photo above. That dark check come off some hard spinning stuff man! Some toooooo "DEEP".
....well anyway
Good night Keith. Need to check on my stock portfolio. Talk to you later.
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 1:45 AM
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3757
709 posts
Apr 22, 2008
7:15 AM
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"The bottom line is, knowone wants to take the time to cultivate their own strain, most don't know how, so they get rid of all their birds and buy a whole nother family,as if they didn't have not one quality bird before (Kieth London 2008)."
That is the bottom line!!!!
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quickspin
538 posts
Apr 22, 2008
10:23 AM
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As for me I will stay with the 1220 and play with it in till I manage it right. I need to find one hen that will make it shorter in depth and with control. They have the speed that I like.
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SALAS LOFT
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smoke747
844 posts
Apr 22, 2008
10:32 AM
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Quick, most would have just switched families. When get there you'll be proud and appreciate your accomplishments more. Keep on working it.
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
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quickspin
541 posts
Apr 22, 2008
10:55 AM
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What will you get if you cross 0016 x 1220?
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SALAS LOFT
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luis
823 posts
Apr 22, 2008
11:42 AM
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Creating your own strain,is not something everyone wants to undertake.It's very time consuming, and it takes some level of experience with breeding pigeons.With so many excelent strains/families to choose from already and comp being what most want to do,i could see why most obtain good stock from a reputable breeder and simply keep breeding.
I for one like some of the attributes of the Pensom family and some of the goods in the Higgins family.I plan to work with both and try to the best of my abilities to create what i want.It will take some time,but i think i will enjoy the results more.
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redchecker16
89 posts
Apr 22, 2008
11:46 AM
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Great Post Smoke747 I learn alot from your posts Glad ur Back! Redchecker16
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3757
711 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:18 PM
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"The 1220 line was not cultivated to compete as 0016 was (London 2008."
Keith - After I read your statement again I notice the above statement and I would have to say that this is am impossiple statement for me to comment on since I have know way of knowing all of the individuals that bred 1220 offspring and what they were cultivating as well as 016. The comparison of the two lines is an impossible comparison because one is almost 40 years old and the other is fairly recent with the past two decades. What are you judging the criteria on? As you can see it is impossible to have accurate data on the two lines. It is almost like comparing Bruce Lee to Rickson Gracie. The speed and style of the 1220's that I had from Bob was second to non to me but I respect your opinion and experience also. I am sure that there are guys that have 016 blood that you would not touch with a ten foot pool because everything from 1220 or 016 were not champion producers and also as you stated some guys do not know how to cultivate a family.
P.S Marvin never called me back. If you speak with him tell him I said hello.
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quickspin
543 posts
Apr 22, 2008
1:39 PM
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I just can't believe how fast the 1220 should of been in his time. If many of his offspring are still fast but as for the original I really don't think as close to him.
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SALAS LOFT
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DeepSpinLofts
619 posts
Apr 22, 2008
9:53 PM
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"Most would have just switched families. When get there you'll be proud and appreciate your accomplishments more. Keep on working it." (London 2008)
========================================
========================================
From Deep Spin Lofts
Allow me to reiterate: "In order for us to build a respectable family of performing rolling pigeons we must undeniably start off with the best breeding stock available." (Freeman 2008)
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
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warpspeed
18 posts
Apr 22, 2008
11:14 PM
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to set the record straight i have bred 0016 to 7 different hens the last couple of years, hens that i developed and flew out, out of the birds i have been working with since 1994. every single bird was a champion in the air and out of the ones that i have bred out of they are also producing awesome birds. they produce velocity to the highest level depth and frequency that will leave you staring at the sky thinking when are they going to stop. also with them kitting on a dime. keeping in mind that all the hens i used where flown for at least 2-3 years and 90% of my stock birds have been flown for 2-3 years.
abel
Last Edited by on Apr 22, 2008 11:17 PM
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smoke747
847 posts
Apr 22, 2008
11:31 PM
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3757, I am speaking about my experiences with both families. I had birds that were 3/4 1220 x 626 with the Bob Scott 136 up close . I didnot have nearly as much success as I am having with the 0016,0003,0004, and 45 family of pigeons. I am croossing the new family with the same family I crossed the 1220 birds to. I do admit I know more now than I did 10 - 15 yrs ago.
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
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3757
713 posts
Apr 23, 2008
3:32 AM
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Keith - That makes total sense based on your experience, observations and knowledge of both families. Also, there are many who do not know about 016. Who bred the parents and grandparents? I hope all is well.
Abel - If every bird you bred out of this cock was a champion in the air than that is better than anyone in the history of rollers as I know no one presently or historically that gets a true rare aerial champion out of every bird that is hatched no matter how great the cock may be. That must be an awesome cock.
Last Edited by on Apr 23, 2008 6:18 AM
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George R.
519 posts
Apr 23, 2008
6:44 AM
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Abel
I have been to your Loft and I have witnessed some of the most awsome Birds I have ever seen.
Good Luck in the World Cup prelims
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smoke747
850 posts
Apr 23, 2008
10:17 AM
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ABEL, I like the family to, but all champions, come on now. 100% producer? I know they produce in the high % but ALL CHAMPIONS? That might be better than Pensom himself.
If that is the case, using anything else would be uncivilized...
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
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smoke747
851 posts
Apr 23, 2008
10:17 AM
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ABEL, I like the family to, but all champions, come on now. 100% producer? I know they produce in the high % but ALL CHAMPIONS? That might be better than Pensom himself.
If that is the case, using anything else would be uncivilized...
smoke747
Keith London
ICRC
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warpspeed
19 posts
Apr 23, 2008
3:13 PM
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i said champion in the air and it just isnt one pair its with every mating i did. yes efren the hens have also produced very high % on other cocks that i have. the rest of the kit 16 or 17 of then maybe another 4 are off 0016 offspring and the rest are out of my stuff that i have been working with and no i did not get a bad or even an average one .
abel
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0016
80 posts
Apr 23, 2008
7:35 PM
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Man one thing I have to say is not all birds that come off of 0016 are champions,but I can say that almost all of them guys want them like 357 stated earlier it was 40 years ago,do you have a car 40 years old that can compete with the 08 model? Abel flew all of his me personally I flew the first three rounds then I know what I had Johnny Smith had him maybe about three years before I got him when I had him he filled 40 eggs 2 were not fertile on 7 hens the sold to Able has not fed babies proably since 2002 father of many offspring anybody out there got a bad one of those high dollar birds off NBRC0016-95 speak up no for 1220 didnt Jerry have some 1220 what would a person get rid of 1220 to switch to something lesser? hum 1220 guys stay holding on to that Heritage go by Able house he is flying a whole lot of them bottom line is birds are only as good as the breeder understands them excellent pigeons in the hands of guys who dont understand them will always be nothing more than culls.
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0016
81 posts
Apr 23, 2008
7:45 PM
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Bottom line Jerry Higgins just had alot of good pigeons and he put together a good spinnin family, as for speedracer(Abel Ibarra)I have seen alot of good kits flown by him and he is also a good friend of mine that if you ask him a question be careful because he is going to tell you the truth (in a hurry proof read later) but that is my opinion which means absolutely NOTHIN!
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BA Rollers
7 posts
Apr 23, 2008
7:56 PM
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100 percent champions????
Kinda sounds like a sales pitch to me.
I'm hoping to see the kits fly in riverside this weekend for the world cup. what day do you fly warpspeed, I want to see those champions. Its been a while since i've been to see the kits fly out there, it sounds like I will be in for a real treat!
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George R.
523 posts
Apr 23, 2008
8:15 PM
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Hey BA
you are in for a treat my friend.... ENJOY>>>>
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warpspeed
21 posts
Apr 23, 2008
9:14 PM
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sales pitch not really i dont sell pigeons just ask around but i do love trophys that is competetion ones. i fly sun 6:30 am
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George R.
524 posts
Apr 23, 2008
9:18 PM
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Abel
The Vegas region flys this weekend too, I go first at 6;30am
.
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warpspeed
22 posts
Apr 23, 2008
9:24 PM
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good luck post results i will post saturdays and sundays for all you guys
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3757
716 posts
Apr 24, 2008
3:29 AM
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Newbies - We really do not know why the people that have 1220's keep the birds or why someone has fireballs, Caspersons etc but I would assume because of performance. There are plenty of people who get rid of a family for various reasons and the one reason may be that they do not want to take the time to cultivate for what they want out of the birds. All of the rhetoric is subjective because there is no universal law that states individual performance is the way or kit competition is the way. The way is what you desire in your family of rollers. There is no one that dictates what is right or wrong when it comes to what you want. Do not get caught up in rhetoric and breed to what you desire out of your pigeons and have fun.
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smoke747
864 posts
Apr 24, 2008
9:35 AM
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3757, you are right on the money. The hobby needs both to survive.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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warpspeed
23 posts
Apr 24, 2008
10:48 AM
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this is a performance breed and to me the way it is is about winning the flys and competetions, otherwise you are just a pigeon keeper or peddler. in my opinion the difference between a breeder that breeds for an individual bird or competetion birds is that he is looking for ONE superstar where as me as a comp guy i am looking to have 20 superstars working together.
abel
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3757
717 posts
Apr 24, 2008
12:27 PM
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Thanks Keith.
Newbie’s - Do what makes you happy despite the rhetoric as I stated above. All competition is great individual or kit it is up to you and there are no right or wrong decisions! Also, individual does not mean only one bird is performing despite what most think. If you only have one pigeon performing get rid of the other 19 and breed 19 more. Most do not understand the concept. If you are not having pleasure doing what you are doing change and do not let anyone dictate what you should be doing in your own backyard unless they are paying the rent :)!
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BA Rollers
8 posts
Apr 24, 2008
12:48 PM
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abel, so because a guy doesn't compete he is a just a pigeon keeper or pigeon peddler? Strong statements from someone who just claimed to the world that he breeds 100% champions, yet hasn't won the big flys. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong, but it would appear to me that either you are looking to get paid, or making a claim of sorts to the roller pigeon world.
Mr. 357?, the smart man realizes that what he believes does not always make the rules, it is just what he believes the way things should be. Since we don't have a standard, or at least I have never read one, then each of our opinions about what the birds are supposed to do has equal merit with the next guy. That's what I believe.
100 percent champions......man that's just loco esa.
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3757
718 posts
Apr 24, 2008
2:05 PM
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Ball good points. I would also like to mention that the standard is in The Birmingham Roller by William Hyla Pensom (1958). He also mentioned the standard earlier in 1945 as follows:
(Pensom 1945) "Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."
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BA Rollers
9 posts
Apr 24, 2008
2:14 PM
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Mr 3757, I don't consider Pensom's quote to be a standard. I consider his comments to be his opinion to describe the way he believes and his companions in the hobby believed the birm roller should perform. I understand the meaning of his words in that statement, and I think that many would agree that a spinning ball is the ultimate. I am just a back yard guy, but I pay attention and think I do a pretty good job of filtering through things that I discuss with friends or read. The standard you quote isn't a standard, but an opinion, albeit an educated one that is well respected. Some accept it to be a standard and I do too, but as a standard for performance, ie the way the bird is supposed to spin. And nothing more. The standard for everything else about the birmingham roller doesn't exist but in the minds of those who raise them, their expectations for that the birds are supposed to do. that is what i am trying to say. i hope that makes more sense.
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3757
719 posts
Apr 24, 2008
2:46 PM
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Actually Lewis Wright originally made the statement in the 1800's and the Black Country breeders, who are the originators of many of the birds in this country, used that standard. Pensom was quoting Lewis Wright as in the quotation in my previous post. It is the oldest written standard that we have had that has been documented historically.
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BA Rollers
10 posts
Apr 24, 2008
5:44 PM
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"Lewis Wright says that the true Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball, this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham roller. During my experience, I have always found a total ignorance regarding this standard, yet it is quite plain in its interpretation."
3757, I am not challenging the legitimacy of what was quoted. I too feel that the very best spinners will replicate that description in the air. The problem as I see it is that the generally adopted opinion of how a birmingham roller is supposed to spin, ends at the description of the quality of performance.
Where I begin to question is when there is an underlying rejection against people who breed for kit competition and the often stated assumption that people who breed for kit competitions don't breed to "the birmingham roller standard". The way I take your particular position is that if a person doesn't breed solely for "the true Birmingham Roller that turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball", that they aren't breeding towards a standard of perfection. please correct me if i am mistaken.
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3757
720 posts
Apr 24, 2008
7:10 PM
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Ball - That is not what I am saying at all. I am reiterating the fact that there has been a written standard that was adopted by the originators of the breed according to history. That is it. Some believe in it and some do not. Also, I believe you are saying that it is no way for the standard to be instituted and I agree with that 100 percent. Since the conception of the original quote some have bred to the standard and some have bred to a different standard. There is no governing body that says this is the way it has to be. Bill Pensom had certain goals that many today would think is ludicrous. It is up to the individual. That is why there is so much subjectivity in the sport.
Last Edited by on Apr 24, 2008 7:11 PM
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smoke747
866 posts
Apr 24, 2008
10:49 PM
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Mr Lopez, what if they come out and Abel has a bad day? One fly and one bird does not back up 100% champion statement. Those birds are good, as a matter of fact, very good. i can't say they don't because I have not seen birds directly from 0016 only grand kids from him and they were good but not champions.
champion- one that wins first prize or place in a contest, and in this case; #2 one that is acknowledged to be better than all others. If this is the case they are all the same in performance because once one of them is established as being a champion there can be no difference in performance, not even the slightest
smoke747 ----------
Keith London
ICRC
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elopez
1115 posts
Apr 24, 2008
11:29 PM
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I did, that's why I posted it like that. Although I think the one you had last year would have been considered a Champion, because that bird did it's thing all year long... Would you agree?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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smoke747
874 posts
Apr 24, 2008
11:44 PM
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It did real good, but I would call it exceptional instead of a champion. Most of the birds I call champions are my personal champions.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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elopez
1123 posts
Apr 25, 2008
12:13 AM
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I think your being Humble...
You had a few hit pairs last year, my personal favorites were
Weapon cock on 244
Certified on Weapon Hen
J. Smith cock on Sugar
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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smoke747
883 posts
Apr 25, 2008
12:26 AM
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Yes those were some of my good pairs. you forgot
211 x 125
480 x 335
2242 x 1267
211's blue chk m/w son a 30' spinner got taken this morning and I lost 2242x1267's wht side daughter.
had 20 now I have 18 for saturday. Idid not have a good fly day none this weak. They should be alright still
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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elopez
1130 posts
Apr 25, 2008
12:43 AM
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I know I forgot a few other pairs, but these were my personal favorites. Hopefully you'll have them cracking as usual for Sat. Good luck my brother from another mother...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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3757
722 posts
Apr 25, 2008
3:59 PM
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Efren - I noticed Rusty etc. on the pedigree. Can someone talk about the grandparents to 016 who breed them, what are they down from etc? The reason I ask is because the numbers are not recognizable to me.
Thanks
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 4:00 PM
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Hector Coya
103 posts
Apr 25, 2008
4:50 PM
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I noticed theres not much information on those pedegrees, i wonder if they go back to the old stuff,someone has to have the rest of the pedegree,or did they pick those birds up from a feed store?We might be talking about the new stuff against the old stuff,i think its all the same,some one is not giving credit beyond the 80s thats all. Hector Coya
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3757
723 posts
Apr 25, 2008
7:08 PM
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Efren - Thanks a million.
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