Dave Szab
149 posts
Apr 27, 2008
12:04 PM
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Article II --- Objectives
Section 1
The objectives of the NBRC will be as follows
a. The cultivation of the true Birmingham Roller pigeon as a performing breed.
b. To stimulate interest and maintain competition in the flying of these pigeons.
c. To enhance education about the Birmingham Roller and fellowship among roller fanciers through various means, including the publishing of periodic bulletins. The name of the official voice of the NBRC will be known as the "NBRC Bulletin."
***********************************************************
Listed above you see the official "objectives" of the NBRC. To me the first line says it all: "The cultivation of the true Birmingham Roller pigeon as a performing breed." It doesn't say cultivation of the roller pigeon as a performing breed, it doesn't say cultivation of the Birmingham Roller as a performing breed, it says "true Birmingham Roller". There is a reason they chose the word "true". Here are synonyms for the word true: actual, exact, genuine, legitimate, precise, proper, real, right, rightful, straight.
Now, I have nothing against what anyone decides to do in their backyard, with their birds, to each his own, but if you belong to the NBRC you should be working toward the NBRC's stated objectives. Why would you join a club when you don't agree with it's objectives? Makes no sense to me. Cultivating the "true Birmingham Roller", is not achieved by crossing in other breeds, or using birds in your stud that you know for sure have other breeds crossed into them, no matter how well they perform.
Let's be honest guys, fly whatever you want, but if you belong to the NBRC, you should be trying to cultivate "the true Birmingham Roller". If not, then you should be in a club whose objectives you do agree with. You could always try to change the objectives of the NBRC, but then it would no longer be the National "Birmingham Roller" Club, and you would lose all the members that believe in the "true Birmingham Roller.
Dave Szabatura
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Scott
421 posts
Apr 27, 2008
2:23 PM
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Moderated
It clearly states that it is a breed (DUH) someone here will claim it to be a typo LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2008 3:25 PM
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dmitch
54 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:21 PM
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So guys what is the recipe for a true Birmingham roller pigeon some say this some say that?
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PR_rollers
976 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:22 PM
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Do you also believe that birmingham was the only city that had rollers??? let hear ur input on this one?
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Chai Seng
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It was taken for granted that the Birmingham Roller was originated in Birmingham ,England:hence the name. what ever we owe the originators,and our appreciation must be no less great,I personally believe that their standard of perfection was vast;y improved and the breed more ardently cultivated by more imaginative fanciers residing in those districts on the West side of Birmingham known as the Black Country .
Pensom.
Ralph....
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PR_rollers
977 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:29 PM
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A recipe you ask .here is one.
Lewis Wright says the the true Birmingham Roller "turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball"and this sentence provides an excellent standard for the performance of a Birmingham Roller.
----------This the only recipe that i keep in my pot..
Ralph....
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Alan Bliven
392 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:33 PM
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Why don't you all post this question in the Genetics multi-breed forum and ask them if a bird is a TRUE Birmingham Roller if it's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was another breed of Pigeon used to transfer a new color into Birmingham Rollers. I am afraid you would be laughed out of there with an assertion that it's not a Birmingham Roller.
That reasoning is just unheard of in Pigeon breeding. Almost every breed of Pigeon had at one time one or more breeds used to transfer a particular gene into it. In most breeds it's not only in their recent past but it's also currently being done by genetics experts. Disqualifying a group of Pigeons as being part of that breed is unheard of. If that's the case at least 75% of all Pigeon breeds would no longer be what they are today.
This is the only place I have ever seen such backwards reasons towards Pigeon genetics, and I visit almost every Pigeon forum I can find.
Someone mentioned Modenas. Well, almost all Modenas have King blood running through because of a recent introduction of King blood for more size. Does that now disqualify all Modenas as being Kings except German Modenas? Of course not.
Many breeds were introduced into the Indian Fantail in recent years for color and larger size, does that disqualify all Indian Fantails as being Indian Fantail? Of course not, that's silly and backwards thinking.
I can go on with a countless number of breeds. It's common place to this very day to use other breeds to transfer another gene into an existing breed. It's hard to believe some roller people can be so backwards and bitter. It's seems to me hate and bitterness is what fuels and motivates people with such extreme and backwards ideas. It's sad people like this want to cause division and grudges between fellow fanciers by splitting hairs in this manner.
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Alan Bliven
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Alan Bliven
393 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:37 PM
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BTW.. I wrote every board member of the NBRC and everyone of them wrote me back and told me they considered rare colored Rollers to be Birmingham Rollers. These extremist, bitter and divisive ideas are not spawned by the NBRC.
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Alan
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MILO
928 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:42 PM
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Alan.
The only reason you see this sort of stuff in here is because this is a performance breed. I find your comments interesting. If you want to breed something into your rollers, god bless you.
c
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MILO
929 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:44 PM
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Oh and Alan...
Thanks for the clarification on the rare colors and the NBRC board members. I was just wondering that.
c
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Scott
427 posts
Apr 27, 2008
4:53 PM
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(Someone mentioned Modenas. Well, almost all Modenas have King blood running through because of a recent introduction of King blood for more size. Does that now disqualify all Modenas as being Kings except German Modenas? Of course not.)
You are a 100 0/0 correct Allen, although I see these "new" so called Modenas as not being Modenas as they don't represent the breed due to the crosses, same as I don't see the Show Roller or color mutt being a Birmingham due to the crosses.
As for the color breeding breed mongralizing self appointed genetic guru's , I find them pretty comical myself.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 5:24 PM
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Dave Szab
150 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:01 PM
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Alan,
The difference is that you are talking about show pigeons, when you talk about such crosses. The Birmingham Roller is a performance breed, NOT a show bird, so crossing another breed into it does not make it's performance better, it moves the breed away from it's ideal performance. Being up on pigeon gentetics, you should know this, and I'm sure that you do. The true Birmingham Roller stands alone in it's performance abilities in the pigeon world, adding any other breed into it, just to get a certain color, destroys the breed, it does not cultivate it. Facts are facts, they are not meant to hurt or demean anyone, they are just facts. If the Birmingham Roller is to remain a high performance breed of pigeon, with it's distinct performance abilities, it must remain as pure as we can keep it. That is the only way for this breed to move forward, and for us to leave the breed true for future Birmingham Roller breeders.
Dave Szabatura
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Scott
428 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:02 PM
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(bitter and divisive ideas are not spawned by the NBRC.)
The NBRC has no ideas of it's own other than what is printed above, you talked to some shmoe not wanting a problem
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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dmitch
55 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:02 PM
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PR that is just the result but i would like to know the true ingredients? Somebody.
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Scott
429 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:27 PM
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(PR that is just the result but i would like to know the true ingredients? Somebody.)
No one knows for certain, what is certain is that it derived from preformance Tumbler breeds, not only did they have to breed towards roll but they also had to breed towards birds that could mentaly and physicaly handle such, it is no doubt a complicated breed that can be easily ruined even without crosses.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 5:29 PM
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luis
845 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:41 PM
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Gentleman,how many different ways can we post this topic?I'm amazed at the number of times this subject has been brought up in the 2 years i've frequented this site.The newbie who has an interest in the pursuit of the "true Birmingham roller" certainly is going to find it here in the form of a billion threads under different names!
Lets give credit, to at least some of the new guys who have the intelligence and the ability to research and make up their mind as to wich direction they wish to take their birds.I'm all for educating the new guys,but this is getting OLD!!
There's so much more that the experienced guys can offer the readers here.We know where each of us stands and beliefs on this subject.Tust me on that one!
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dmitch
57 posts
Apr 27, 2008
5:45 PM
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Guys its all about the true roots.
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Scott
431 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:29 PM
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(Mitch your not going to get one of them to bite on that because then the Birmingham roller would be a Mongrel cross which it is. I will post you a pretty accurate rolled up history. (no pun intended) They have Oriental, Dutch Tumbler and English tumbler bred together. If that isnt a mongrel I dont know what is.)
Paul,what breeds weren't derived from other breeds ? under that thought there is no such term as a breed, like I said in a post prior to yours performance Tumbler breeds were used, that is a given.
And then you use someone elses post that wouldn't allow a mutt on the property , whats up with that ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
190 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:38 PM
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Strictly clarifying colors and make up for the man that asked for it.
Nothing more, nothing less.
sippi
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MILO
930 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:51 PM
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This is the best part of the post if you guys got tired of the reading. Boy oh boy, I sure hope you got ol Tom's approval to copy that here...He would eat you alive if you didn't...LOL
c
"A fancier can breed pure rollers that come in a wide variety in appearance, using these basic colors, patterns, and modifiers. Anything else is not a pure roller, though the color breeding advocates will argue to their deaths that a roller becomes "pure" if it's bred for
enough generations away from the initial outcross.
Both pure and impure rollers can roll anywhere from lousy to excellent. I'd rather have a champion-rolling impure roller than a pure roller that tumbles like a cull. But since I prefer the pure ones, I stay away from the exotic colors descending from color outcrosses. I pay the feed bill, so that's what I breed. I allow the same freedom to those who choose to breed for non-roller colors."
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katyroller
138 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:51 PM
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These posts are KILLING me but I'll take the bait, with a twist. The argument has always been about introducing other breeds to introduce a new color, crests or whatever else. Has anyone ever tried to introduce another breed ONLY to improve performance? If the cross worked and the crosses turned out to be excellent performers that looked like BR's, would most breeders admit the truth? Let's go a step farther and say that a kit of these unknown mongrels was to win the WC. I don't think there would be all this uproar.
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MILO
931 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:56 PM
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Well, it's because there is nothing in the air that rolls better. You can't "add" anything to the Birmingham Roller to make them roll better. If there were, I would have tried it. It can't be done. Crossing in other breeds is nothing more than a waste of time.
c
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Scott
432 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:22 PM
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( Let's go a step farther and say that a kit of these unknown mongrels was to win the WC.)
Actualy Kat, JoeBob Stutka did win the W/C with two in his kit along with others that had it buried in the background along with others that were pure.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
191 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:27 PM
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Read Toms post again. You missed the whole point and evidently didnt read who it was to either. Those are PURE Birmingham Roller colors whether you like it or not. I could care less.
Could a cross improve the Birmingham Roller. I seriously doubt it. I have many rare breeds of Rollers and none are as fast or tight as the BR. I think if you crossed in any thing you would only be backing up.
I certainly dont advocate crossing anything into the BR. I have what I have and will let them speak for themselves. I dont think anyone that is making "REAL" color crosses are competing with what they make. The birds would not stand up.
I also will not post again in answer to a color debate. It has already been said. Put what you got in the air and let the judges sort them out.
Sippi
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katyroller
139 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:29 PM
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Milo, There may not be one particular breed that rolls better than the BR but that doesn't mean there isn't a breed out there can't help produce better rollers. I would also venture to say that some of the so called PURE families aren't as PURE as we would like to believe.
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MILO
935 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:35 PM
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No, and Yes Kat.
There is nothing that can be added to make them better. Period.
You are right however about the purity thing, but I can assure you this, I know what is behind mine.
c
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Scott
433 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:39 PM
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( I would also venture to say that some of the so called PURE families aren't as PURE as we would like to believe.)
There is some truth to this as many new guys and back yard flyers end up with birds from questionable lofts(google up rare color Rollers)kinda like passing the aids virus.
But there are also many lofts where there is no question that they are what they are as many take the breed very serious as did those before them.
Most that have the color mutts also have birds from such lofts but not visa versa for obvious reasons.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 7:42 PM
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katyroller
140 posts
Apr 27, 2008
8:02 PM
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How do you prove what isn't there? A statement with no merit or basis in truth...meant to discredit and minimize those who claim "pure" families. :-(
I am not trying to discredit anyone or minimize anyone who claims a "pure" family. Why is it then when the "color" breeders claim their birds to be "pure" there is an immediate uproar with the usual folks claiming the birds to be "mongrels" and the family less than "pure"? "How do you prove what isn't there?", great question but "how do you prove what is there?" A pedigree?
Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I don't raise "color" birds. I raise "pure" L.V. French strain FB's.
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luis
846 posts
Apr 27, 2008
9:07 PM
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Tony don't you mean..How do you prove what isn't visible to the eye.It 's no hidden fact that just as those who breed color rollers select for them,those who don't, also cull anything that doesn't come in their desired color.It's just a matter of preference folks,lets not hide facts.It goes both ways!
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Scott
437 posts
Apr 27, 2008
9:19 PM
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(those who don't, also cull anything that doesn't come in their desired color.It's just a matter of preference folks,lets not hide facts.It goes both ways! )
Luis, who does that and why ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 9:21 PM
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luis
851 posts
Apr 27, 2008
10:05 PM
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Scott,from what i have gathered, i think this method is applied by those who believe that anything that carries these "rare color genes" will only serve to degrade and slow down the progression of what they believe is "The true standard of the Birmingham roller"
I'm not a follower of this phylosophy and believe that although it is the road less traveled(by qualified breeders),there are those with the know how to produce color rollers of exeptional quality.Certainly not a task that should be undertaken by just anyone.A fact that is obvious by all the junk that is floating around in so many lofts,but again this is also evident in lofts with rollers that carry NO RARE COLOR factors whatsoever!Go figure...LOL.
Through selection there is much that can be accomplished with fast producing species such as the pigeon.A well established fact due to the many variations that have embodied its common ancestor..the rock dove.
This is a very controversial subject ,and i personally draw the line at color.I like my rollers to look like birms in type, and i don't care for muffs or crests ,but there are those that do! So one has to ask himself where does one begin and where does one end?
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 10:30 PM
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luis
852 posts
Apr 27, 2008
10:33 PM
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Kel,when i'm asked a question i feel deserves an answer...I answer!I think Scott has a lot to offer as so many others on this site.Maybe one day someone could convince me to jump ship!!LOL.
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lil_jess
96 posts
Apr 27, 2008
10:57 PM
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I lost the interests in calling my rollers Birmingham Roller 2 years ago as I started into the hobby...I can only call them performing pigeon that spins, or roller...I remember there was a stray in roller and I post it on here trying to find the owner, then a fancier replys back and email me privately...Got the info. call up the owner he came and got his roller, but he didn't even thank me and he ask me what is a Birmingham Roller Pigeon...I say a performing pigeon that rolls backward, he got mad and correct me...He say that a BR is a performing pigeon that does a rapidly summersault and velocity spin so fast that you can see the hole just exactly like Mr. Pensom stated in his books...He also wanted me to buy the books and read it and once I knew what a BR is then I can call him and talk...Since then I never call my pigeon BR anymore, It is very wrong to call a performing pigeon that rolls a BR...but it must be a BR that does summersault and etc to be a true BR....I would love to call my PRP Birmingham Roller instead PRP...
-------------------------------------------
Home of the Admiration Of Flying Performing Pigeon...
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 11:09 PM
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Ty Coleman
237 posts
Apr 28, 2008
4:59 AM
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Hey guys, I just wanted to point something out Nick has made his point many times and chose to be the bigger man and not beat the dead horse again.Same as I.Know if a few others do this we could talk about useful pigeon information.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2390 posts
Apr 28, 2008
5:36 AM
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Okay Ty, I feel there is MUCH MORE to be said but upon some reflection, I know I value the site members too much to allow this debate to continue down the abyss it is headed.
In the end, there will always be 2 camps on this issue. I think time will demonstrate by what one sees in the air(and it has for some who have been doing this for awhile) that one position is superior to the other. I'll leave it at that.
Thanks Dave for the post that started the thread and to each one that participated.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2008 5:37 AM
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ezeedad
476 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:43 AM
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Thanks Tony... Not that I feel much different from you about this issue. But it is very easy to click the topic off and move on if you're sick of it.
On the other hand it can sometimes cause people to dig deep and come up with good info... Look at what Sippi posted... and Luis.. (am I showing bias?) lol..
Gomez
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DeepSpinLofts
658 posts
Apr 29, 2008
11:09 AM
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re: "What is "the true Birmingham Roller"?
Hmm.... now that's a very good question.
In my honest response to such a question I would have to say that one must travel to modern day Birmingham, England in order to observe and evaluate the best aerial performing roller pigeons in the region.
....and
From that evaluation we can move forward to determining the true Birmingham Roller. In doing organic research in these matters I found it always important to start with the origin as defining the truth of a species beginnings.
.... say for instance
One must travel to Austrailia and look at the Aborigines in order to see a "True Austrailian". In this case we would not refer to Crocodile Dundee as a true Austrailian. His language comes from a foreign land and was not borne in Australia.
....or
One must travel to Indian Reservations on the North American continent in order to actually see the Native American's.... or shall I say:
====> "True Americans" <====
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2008 12:51 PM
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Dave Szab
152 posts
Apr 29, 2008
8:07 PM
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Thanks for unlocking the topic Tony, I appreciate it.
Guys, here's the deal, anyone of us can breed anything that we want to in our backyard. I would never try to tell anyone that they couldn't breed cross-bred color birds if they wanted to, BUT the point of my topic is that if you do, and you belong to the NBRC, then you should also be trying to advance the true Birmingham Roller separately from your cross-bred projects. If you choose not to, then why would you belong to a club that has the stated objectives that the NBRC has? Nobody from the cross-bred roller side has answered that question yet.
Dave Szabatura
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sippi
205 posts
Apr 29, 2008
8:51 PM
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Dave I dont consider my birds cross bred They do have color factors in them,Turners. I havent changed anything and the man before me hasnt added anything. I do try to strive to improve my birds by careful selection. That is as far as I can vouch for them. But I belong to the NBRC because I want to support the ideal that Pensom put forward and to compete in the flys. For me they are the only game in town. As far as I know the closest rollers to me are in the next town.
Sippi
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luis
869 posts
Apr 29, 2008
9:27 PM
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Dave,like i stated on the other post that's running this subject...If the standard that is given for the breed does not state what colors are not permited within the breed.All color birds that perform and look like BRs are BRs,and no one can say a damn thing otherwise!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2403 posts
Apr 30, 2008
2:19 AM
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Hey Luis, let me simplify all the discussion on breeds and standards:
1st: You have the "breed", then
2nd: You have the "standard" for the breed
3rd: The standard is an attempt to "ensure" the breed
The fact that there is not an apparent written color standard does not mean there is NOT a breed first.
Perhaps the reason there is not a color standard is because it has no bearing on what the Birmingham Roller is first and does foremost and that is to be a "performing" breed, not a "show" breed where the visual characteristics themselves are what is being judged.
The current confusion and obfuscation is merely a straw-man and avoids drawing in on the 3 points I synthesized from the discussion. All the "what ifs" and "what about that's" have no relevancy on the 3 points.
To me, all these caveats being offered up by Cliff and others are like someone saying "the Sun provides warmth; but since it is cold out, there is no Sun".
To me, that's what the other camp sounds like in maintaining their position. Because it might be cold outside, does not mean there is not a Sun.
Now, in order to maintain their current position, the other camp will have to ignore or attempt to discredit what I have said. Sheeeoooot (quote from Mater) Why let the facts get in the way?
==
Hey Dave, the NBRC became a "big tent" encompassing all performing rollers, probably had to take on this approach to just stay a viable entity in years past.
Now if Alan is correct regarding what he was told by the EC, then the published goals of the club have become irrelevant and the "club" itself has become its sole purpose for existing, not the advancment of the Birmingham Roller.
That would lead to the current climate we are in, where anything goes as long as the terms "roller" and "performing" are included.
Since the NBRC is tho only game in town (can you say World Cup Organization?) to put out a bi-monthly newsletter, there just isn't anywhere else to go for "membership" in a national organization.
Dave, if what you stated in this thread is true, then all that we have for a national organization, for better or for worse is the NBRC.
However, rather than completely blame leadership, it's the members who voted. We got what we asked for, good or bad.
If my birds hold up to the bop, I look forward to the Fall Fly!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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luis
882 posts
Apr 30, 2008
12:20 PM
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Tony,i feel very strongly that it is the responsability of an organization that promotes a breed, to have a standard in place that will uphold that breed, and the legitimacy of such.Especially an organization such as the NBRC wich has been around for so many years(plenty of time to have came up with that standard.)Wouldn't you agree?Especially with the concerns over crossbreeding and with the debates on color factors wich don't belong within the Birmingham Roller!
The NBRC has had many within their ranks with the knowledge to accomplish this simple task!Why they have not,i really could not answer,but i think Cliff did!
I simply don't follow this criteria and feel the BR should be bred for performance and type.Again i will state,those with the know how can certainly breed color rollers with exceptional performance!If the NBRC wich is the highest governing body on the breed is not telling me they are not BRs,why should anybody else feel the need to do so?
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2008 12:23 PM
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JMUrbon
430 posts
Apr 30, 2008
12:46 PM
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I think that what you are asking for Dave is going to be very difficult if not impossible to get an answer for. I have been breeding rollers for almost 30 years and I have seen one person in all that time crossing another breed into the rollers and he doesnt have birds anymore. The fact of the matter is that there are guys out there doing it but they dont want to discuss it on a public forum or at all for that matter.
The other side of this thread is that if a guy chooses birds of color when starting out with rollers Not knowing that there are guys that are breeding for color and guys that are breeding for purity. Does that make him a color breeder. In my opinion absolutely not so long as he breeds to the preformance and not to the color of the performer. He will find out in a short time due to the diferences in opinions that he has color birds that may or may not be pure Birminghams. Its up to him at that point to decide weather he cares if they are or are not. Not for somebody else to make his mind up for him.
I have voiced my opinion on this many times and it has never changed. There will always be project breeders. I just wish they would leave their projects in their back yard and not peddle them to new fliers that dont no the difference and end up being taken for alot of money only to leave the hobby disgruntled when in fact had they gotten birds from a true performace minded breeder and that could be performance birds of color or traditional BR's then they would have stuck around and truely enjoyed these great birds.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2008 1:29 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2408 posts
Apr 30, 2008
1:25 PM
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Hey Luis, I know you don’t mean to, but your post tries to create another straw-man…not this time hehehe…a couple of people have already posted on this site, documentation from the NBRC itself using language that directly indicates the Birmingham Roller is a “breed”.
Not disputable.
This verbiage was first published by the NBRC how long ago? Perhaps someone could look this up and let us know. The “official” position of the NBRC is that the Birmingham Roller is a breed.
That they do not describe the colors in a standard does not invalidate the fact that the governing body, which is the NBRC and its documentation, charter and mission, or whatever, has the official position that the Birmingham Roller is a breed.
The fellows that came probably before both you and me, put the verbiage together had something in mind, that the current leadership has allegedly been said to hold a different position, is besides the point.
The founding fathers of the club and who put the verbiage together in the first place and which is now published is the final word, not something said to someone in an email or telephone call.
What are we to believe here, something Alan said he was told by some current leader in an email or telephone call or the NBRC’s own published documents?
Until and unless the current leadership and membership makes the contents of this alleged verbal/email change official, the NBRC has the current official position that the Birmingham Roller is a breed.
Not disputable.
Luis, it’s public discussions over this issue that may put the pressure on the leaders to do just such a thing as include color in a standard, but even if it does not, it does not change the fact that the current NBRC position is that the Birmingham Roller is a breed.
Not disputable.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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sippi
207 posts
Apr 30, 2008
2:35 PM
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Tony I have to look up the definition of straw man again.
Is it not true by the purist line that Whittinghams, and other Fireballs are "pure Birmingham Rollers".
Not for the controversy but for knowledge, because I was sitting at my kit boxes looking at birds and the Fireballs arent the same type. They also cant for the most part roll with the Turners. Even some of the shorter birds could compete in sanctioned flys. But I dont have them for that reason. I have them because of the depth which when they have it they cant hold the roll together as well.
Sippi
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2410 posts
Apr 30, 2008
3:22 PM
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Hey sippi, I am not the one who could answer this definitively, LEO would have to step in one this one. I have read that it is, but as far as a strain goes, leaves much to be desired for competition use.
Some strains of Birmingham Rollers are obviously "better" in certain respects than others...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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luis
884 posts
Apr 30, 2008
9:20 PM
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Sorry Tony but that's just your opinion!Paul already threw that one my way and i already answered it.
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Scott
459 posts
Apr 30, 2008
10:29 PM
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(The fellows that came probably before both you and me, put the verbiage together had something in mind, that the current leadership has allegedly been said to hold a different position, is besides the point. )
Tony, that is because there was never a question before as it being a breed, it certainly was a breed when I twelve and got my first Birmingham Roller (at least in name)
Now that I'm 50 people now want it to be not a breed because they have mutt crossed in for color ect. go figure.
Scott
Paul,the FireBalls/Wittinghams were never know to be of the same calibre as what was imported in from the English Greats, and is why you see so few today.
I'm not sure any mainstream English guys are flying birds going back to Wittingham either, could be wrong.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2412 posts
Apr 30, 2008
11:16 PM
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Hey Luis, you put up another straw man. Your position that the facts of Dave's initial posts and some other posts and what can be logically deduced from them as mere opinion is intellectually weak and dishonest.
You lost this debate, plain and simple the moment you posted "opinion". I just had a deja-vu moment that I was arguing with my daughter when she was a teenager...
Unless you can methodically destroy my position, or admit I am correct in my understanding, you no longer have any credibility in this debate.
At this point, I see your primary role as one of setting up straw men in an attempt to confuse and ignore the documented facts and keep others in the dark.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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luis
889 posts
May 01, 2008
12:05 AM
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Like i said before Tony,that's your OPINION and it doesn't affect me in the least!When you all produce something that states that color is not permited in the BREED,then i'll give your opinion more credit!(Until then i'll hold onto mine,wich has just as much validity as any posted in these threads.)
At this point,that's basically what it boils down to,wether you agree with it or not!
Genetics and its bylaws were not created by me.I wish they were.Like i said before talk to someone educated on the subject, and see what he has to say in respects to this debate.
Last Edited by on May 01, 2008 12:51 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2416 posts
May 01, 2008
12:21 AM
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1st: You have the "breed", then
2nd: You have the "standard" for the breed
3rd: The standard is an attempt to "ensure" the breed
The fact that there is not an apparent written color standard does not mean there is NOT a breed first.
Perhaps the reason there is not a color standard is because it has no bearing on what the Birmingham Roller is first and does foremost and that is to be a "performing" breed, not a "show" breed where the visual characteristics themselves are what is being judged.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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