maxspin
235 posts
May 09, 2008
8:14 AM
|
Azpigionman,
"American Rollers" That cracks me up.
Kind of puts these posts in perspective.
Keith Maxwell
|
nicksiders
2762 posts
May 09, 2008
10:29 AM
|
Azpigeons,
LOL......much of what you say is right on. There is some disdain by a lot of flyers in the UK for our birds here in the US. They also know there are several flyers who have the real deal in the US.
This site also holds a lot of competitors on its list; even the owner of the site compeats. He puts the birds he sell's reputation on the line and I admire that more than anything. It takes balls to compete and time.
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on May 09, 2008 10:30 AM
|
Ballrollers
1228 posts
May 12, 2008
6:59 PM
|
Tony
You stated or quoted Kowalski, I think, saying:
*Apparently many breeders of the Birmingham Roller Breed, recognize Andalusian as a color contained within the Birmingham Roller, as breeding techniques have taken place over sufficient generations without the result compromising the performance traits found within the true BR.
The Andalusian "color" is the indigo factor expressed on a spread blue bird. So it is the indigo factor you are speaking of. It would seem to fly in the face of our discussion to accept one rare factor without accepting the others that have been around about as long. If we now want to accept a rare factor after "so many" generations of breeding, based on genetic principles, well, that is certainly a very valid concept. But sooner or later, the time will come when other factors meet that generational breeding standard, and they too will want to be included.
So from mutt to True BR in "X" number of generations, depending on performance? Well, How long for dominant opal? How long for reduced? (But I think it is already recognized.) What if some guy wants to move the color/factor acceptence process along, could he petition the NBRC with a generous monetary donation attached? LOL!
Interesting idea, though.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 12, 2008 7:02 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2482 posts
May 12, 2008
9:58 PM
|
Hey Cliff, after going back and re-reading some of the posts, making some calls regarding the DNA genome and pigeons and based on the information I was told, we will not ever be able to genetically distinguish between a birmingham roller and say - a fantail, too expensive (million$).
Since we cannot prove that there is a breed called the Birmingham Roller through the DNA, and because too many are willing to resist the idea that the Birmingham Roller is an actual breed, I just can no longer debate what I will not be able to prove.
So now I will just wait for Brown to show up in my rollers and toy stencil and all the other rare colors and modifiers to grace my loft which should happen eventually according to what I understand from the breed resistors.
I just have to wait long enough, then I will see it. Apparently 15 years and well over a 1000 offspring later with my current line isn't long enough. Can somebody let me know how long I will have to wait?
And while I started waiting and pondering this evening, I realized that since there is no birmingham roller breed according to the breed resistors, there can't be a standard for roll as that would imply a breed called "rollers", that can't be right because even the name "roller" implies a roller breed, and since what we call a "roller" is merely the crossing of other breeds it can only be a mongrel. So, there can't be a roller either!
We have ALL BEEN WRONG!
I am sure the breed resistors would have to agree with this assessment because this is what they have been saying all along if you take their logic to its only real conclusion.
I have crossed-over and have SEEN the light! Thank you David, sippi, Eric, Luis, Bob, et al.
But I have to say, somehow I feel a little dirty now that I have admitted that the breed resistors were right about the birmingham roller not being a breed at all.
So I guess all any of us has done is to trash the standard of the Oriental Roller, the Flying Tippler and Dutch Tumbler and who knows what else for hundreds of years.
Anybody want to sell me some pure...I mean true...I mean Turner Oriental Roller - Flying Tippler - Dutch Tumbler mongrels?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Santandercol
2498 posts
May 12, 2008
10:09 PM
|
Hah!!You guys still here!?LOL!
----------
Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2483 posts
May 12, 2008
10:15 PM
|
Hey Kel, just saw the light this evening! I was saved from the sin of believing in the Birmingham Roller breed. I even figured out there is no such thing as a roller either. WOW, I was double saved tonight!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Santandercol
2500 posts
May 12, 2008
10:24 PM
|
Hey Tony,good evening,,,I just find it comical you guys are still harping on about this colour thing no offense,ehh.It's too political for me hee hee,,,no,I just came in the house from flying birds till almost dark,,,,,,,happy.No falcon. Keep them birds flying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
----------
Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
Last Edited by on May 12, 2008 10:26 PM
|
Santandercol
2501 posts
May 12, 2008
10:28 PM
|
Hey lookit that.2,500 posts.What a BSer eh??!!
----------
Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2484 posts
May 12, 2008
10:28 PM
|
Hey Kel, this new house of cards will take some getting used to but its all relative.
How do I join Slobberknockers?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Santandercol
2502 posts
May 12, 2008
10:29 PM
|
LOLOLOLOL
----------
Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2485 posts
May 12, 2008
10:29 PM
|
Hey Kel, 2500! KEWL!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Electric-man
1579 posts
May 12, 2008
10:56 PM
|
Joni, put Tony to bed, I think he is sleep-typing! LOL
----------
Val
"Site Moderator"
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2486 posts
May 13, 2008
6:30 AM
|
Good Morning Val, yes, I was sleepy, mad and depressed (still am this morning), we cannot do DNA on these birds. The color breeders are right.
There is no definitive proof that a breed called the Birmingham Roller exists or ever existed. The only problem I am having right now is understanding that if there is no breed, then what is the standard for?
If a standard is designed to ensure the proper traits and characteristics of a breed, then what breed are we toiling over?
I guess the obvious answer is the "roller" breed? Who established that and what year was it? I wonder...
But in any event, since there is no BR breed, I am taking myself out of the debate.
I am following the evidence where it leads. Cliff, et al, you convinced me (the lack of DNA testing helped allot).
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
bertie
248 posts
May 13, 2008
7:08 AM
|
So Tony, does that mean that the National Birmingham Roller Club has to change it's name since their really isn't a BR breed?
What will they change too? National Common Roller Club!
LOL
Bert
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2487 posts
May 13, 2008
8:06 AM
|
Hey Bertie, don't really give a crap right now!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
MILO
1008 posts
May 13, 2008
8:22 AM
|
Tony.
Relax. You can lead a dead horse to water, but you can't make him float. Keep it real in your loft Tony, and that is all that matters at the end of the day. People can spin this thing any way they want.
c
|
ezeedad
514 posts
May 13, 2008
9:08 AM
|
Well Tony... It just goes to show you.... Once again Pensom was right...
Paul G
|
bertie
249 posts
May 13, 2008
9:17 AM
|
No matter what anyone says mine are still Birmingham Rollers. I can call them what I please.
Bert
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2496 posts
May 13, 2008
9:41 AM
|
Hey Bertie, its all relative. You do what you want and then the next guy does what he wants, heck, they are ALL birmingham rollers, so who cares about quality of roll, velocity, depth control or anything, huh?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
sippi
241 posts
May 13, 2008
7:13 PM
|
I've got to research the DNA thing. I know that they can tell sex by DNA on birds now unless Colombia liviedae arent included in birds. I have some friends at the University of Fl.(GO Gators!) I also know the dean of the animal husbandry dept. that specializes in poultry. He should know.
Until then.
Sippi
|
Scott
542 posts
May 13, 2008
8:47 PM
|
Tony, them making your head spin and trying to confuse the new guys is always the goal, these same exact points we argued long before Cliff came on the scene with a few others.
I honestly think that these points were spun by the same guy and passed on as it is "exactly" the same spin.
It always progresses the same way these guys that have the mongrals, first they deny the cross breeding, then once that can't be denied as it was never a big secret and still goes on today (whether they do it or not) , they then attack the breed itself as not being a breed, samo samo
A mutt is still a mutt and without the real deal to bury the mutt gene deep there is nothing as there was from the beginning , myself I prefere not to have that turd floating around in my gene pool,no confusion here, I know better.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
katyroller
177 posts
May 14, 2008
7:49 AM
|
"first they deny the cross breeding, then once that can't be denied as it was never a big secret and still goes on today (whether they do it or not) , they then attack the breed itself as not being a breed, samo samo"
Scott, Who is denying that crossbreeding has and is still taking place? I think the argument has been that you insist all birds of color have been crossed, when in fact you are wrong. I don't think most folks are arguing with you that crossbreeding for a color isn't for everyone. I think most of us have a problem with your self righteous proclamation that all color birds are mongrels and worthless. How many potential fanciers have possibly read your rants and been convinced rollers were not for them because they were attracted to color birds? Maybe these folks were only going to be backyarders and not competition flyers.
|
Ballrollers
1236 posts
May 15, 2008
9:29 AM
|
Katy,
And so you have seen the dark side of some of the "purist" point of view...it has been going on for decades......and this is the main problem that I have with the movement.
Men like the Oulettes, James Turner and others were confronted and disrespected...intentionally and to their face....in an effort to run these guys out of competition and out of the hobby, if they had color birds of any kind, and regardless of their contribution to the hobby. That's completely outta line. That kind of self-righteous behavior has resulted in the loss of many good roller men to competition and to the hobby....men began to retire to their backyards with their birds...others began to refer to their birds by other names in order to avoid being confronted. But those days are over for the men who feel justified in acting that way. Some of what we see today are the bitter remnants of that sort of activity.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 1:41 PM
|
azpigeonman
3 posts
May 15, 2008
8:39 PM
|
az pigeonman
according to your post , there is no such animal that is a pure breed then
NO, I say if you cross a pigeon with a desired color with a roller, then take the successive babies back to ROLLERS until you have a ROLLER with the color you want, then it's a roller.
When is the roller a roller? 7/8ths 15/16ths??? Give me a break. If it rolls correctly and with velocity, then it's a roller.
... of course most animals were created by mixing Bloodlines, but after they were refined and a standard was reached thats when Horses, dogs, pigeons, snakes, fish , and Birds, become what most people regard as a breed or type.
And as far as competing I fly in any and all Fly's that allow me to enter.
If you beat a Guy with a barn pigeon then consider yourself lucky..
I NEVER said I raced barn pigeons, my RACERS ... WAY back then in 1977 were out of a racer cock bird and a barn pigeon hen.... the HATERS as my kids would say.. booted me out and I haven't raced or raised homers since... My story was an example of ignorant opinionated closed mined people pushing their values on others. Period.
THIS is what the war between the "color" vs "Birmingham's" is about if looked at with an open mind and logically and with NO bias... a thing many humans can't do...
you may want to try your luck in the Biggest pigeon race in the world THE LAS VEGAS CLASSIC.
----------
"The" AZpigeonman
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 8:41 PM
|
Electric-man
1593 posts
May 15, 2008
9:22 PM
|
So lets say were gonna start another club, say.....a German Shepard club! Exclusively for German Shepards! And some guys started joining with , say red, blue, or some other funky color, we should allow them, as long as they performed as a german shepard! Say some had short tails at birth or long droopy ears, and guys were breeding for these different traits!
We should allow anyone with a dog that performs to the standard of a german Shepard in just so we can keep our membership numbers up! Thats the important issue here, right?
Just asking, I'm confused again!
----------
Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 11:15 PM
|
Scott
553 posts
May 15, 2008
9:43 PM
|
Cliff, I don't consider color breeders or those that cross breed Roller men , no hate, just no respect for them where the birds are concerned, I'm not real big on being politicaly correct.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Scott
554 posts
May 15, 2008
9:51 PM
|
(How many potential fanciers have possibly read your rants and been convinced rollers were not for them because they were attracted to color birds? Maybe these folks were only going to be backyarders and not competition flyers.)
If they are that sensitive maybe they should stick with the mongrel site , they should feel all warm and fuzzy in that company.
I think the new flyers should learn the difference as I can assure you some do care when educated,in the big picture there is a world of difference between the two.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 9:53 PM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1219 posts
May 16, 2008
4:01 AM
|
Scott.If you keep posting things like this you will soon have all the color breeders chased from Tony's forum over to what you call our mongrel site.Then you won't be able to educate anyone.David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2511 posts
May 16, 2008
4:45 AM
|
Hey David, if that is true, then where were all of you when Scott was booted for like 9 months? LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Ballrollers
1240 posts
May 16, 2008
4:59 AM
|
Val
If the German Shepherd club had NO STANDARD, NO COLOR STANDARD, only that the dog must look like and act like, perform like, a German Shepherd, then a blue German Shepherd could join. It is up to the German Shepherd club to enact and enforce any standard they so choose. It is not up to individual German Shepherd club members to enforce their personal preference as far as a standard, especially for color, is concerned. Make sense?
The size of the membership has nothing to do with it.
Cliff
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1220 posts
May 16, 2008
5:03 AM
|
Tony.How many times was the color or crossbreeding discussed in the 9 month Scott was booted? LOL. David
|
Ballrollers
1241 posts
May 16, 2008
5:08 AM
|
Scott,
Scott
That is a mighty big resentment that you have against roller men that are very highly respected in the fancy. I guess it's the use of the term "color breeder" that we have to be carefule of. There are many outstanding and experienced roller men who are excellent geneticists. and breed for color as well as performance. Surely you are not throwing them out with the trash, too? Yes, we can now see your sensitive, warm fuzzy side coming out; an excellent example of a club member at his finest..... And please tell us again, how you propose to keep such obvious lack of respect and utter disdain for color birds from affecting your judgment, even if you could identify them, if you were to judge them? Oh you can, can you? And I am 5 foot tall too!
Educate us, PLEASE! As to these large "differences" you speak of. Please be specific as to all these things that we can SEE overtly and clearly. NO opinions now! Only things that can apply to all birds/families of birds you consider to be a Birmingham Roller. Things that are consistent day to day, family to family.
Cliff
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2512 posts
May 16, 2008
5:08 AM
|
But David, from the sound of your response to his post, I thought it was Scott and his online persona, that was chasing them away. So it's the mere "discussion" that does it.
Who believes in something and then runs away from defending or promoting it? LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 5:09 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1221 posts
May 16, 2008
5:35 AM
|
Tony.It is not the mere discussion of the color/crossbreeding but the way Scott is always trashing anyone that does it.
Who of us that is serious with any side of this discussion of color/crossbreeding has ever run away from defending it.
Unless you kick someone off most have supported it and your site from the beginning.
Anyway it all comes down to weither you are raising Pure Birminghams or True Birminghams.One camp is Pure the other is True.As soon as everyone learns the difference between the two the sooner the bashing can stop.
Personally I don't mind what anyone calls me.I have been with rollers for the most part since 1962 which is probably longer than the age of most on here.And I can honestly say that the roll of a good roller has never changed regardless of color or of the birds origin.They may not all have been Pure but they have been True.LOL. David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2514 posts
May 16, 2008
6:02 AM
|
Hey David, I think it is important to separate personalities and the way they express themselves from the what to me, is really a non-issue now at this point: pure or true birmingham rollers.
Scott's view is ultra-conservative and he has a world of knowledge that is both useful in developing and judging good rollers.
Got to get through the hard exterior to get to the creamy middle.
The REAL issue that bubbles up in all this: is the roller pigeon itself a breed or not? Read my new thread I started that asks this question.
The answer a person gives will say it all.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1222 posts
May 16, 2008
6:44 AM
|
Tony.You have started several threads that run parallel with each other.I don't know for sure which one you mean so I will answer it here.
There is documented proof that when the roller was developed that it needed to be called something other than a Tumbler.So it was called a Roller.Then it was called a Birmingham Roller.Then it had a Standard that was suppose to be adhered to.
Then Whittingham and a few others started importing them to the USA.And for many years did so untill Bill Pensom moved to the USA and started importing some of the best rollers that met the Standard.With Pensom came more documented writings and records of the BR than ever was before.
The BR had evolved thru this period of time so to keep from getting what Pensom imported the ones already in the USA was called the American Roller and his were called Pensom Rollers.Both met the Standard but they wanted to be able to tell the difference.Even he called them BRs but that the USA fellows didn't know how to breed or handle them.
So what is it you are asking? Is the BR a Breed.Yes it is a Breed.And has been since it was named the Birmingham Roller.
Has the original Br evolved since the first ones.Yes they have.Even today the Ideal Birmingham Roller is not what William Pensom called an Ideal Birmingham Roller when he first came to the USA.
So where do we draw the line? The bird has evolved but the Standard has never changed since its inception.David
|
Scott
556 posts
May 16, 2008
6:49 AM
|
(There are many outstanding and experienced roller men who are excellent geneticists. and breed for color as well as performance. Surely you are not throwing them out with the trash, too? )
They are exactly who I'm talking about Cliff !
Cliff , that is a bonehead statement,you can't make a left hand turn and a right hand turn at the same time,nor can you breed for performance and color.
If it was true you would see kits of color birds, not kits of "some" color birds,some not, and some where the mutt gene is buried deeper and deeper.
When performance is what is breed for the mutt color all but disapears due to burying it in the real Birminghams.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2520 posts
May 16, 2008
6:58 AM
|
Hey David, so is that your "yes" or "no"?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1223 posts
May 16, 2008
7:03 AM
|
Tony.In my last post I said YES. David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2522 posts
May 16, 2008
7:07 AM
|
Hey David, thank you.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Ballrollers
1245 posts
May 16, 2008
9:33 AM
|
Scott
Who fly's a kit of only one of any traditional color or one factor or one pattern? The color birds contain most alll of the colors contained in the imports, as well as, some of the new colors introduced in that last 50 years or so. These colors just happen, we don't breed for them, and they don't get buried! Geesh...speaking of bonehead! Nine times out of ten, most men could not tell a rare factor from a common one. No body is burying anything. The only thing different is the color of a feather not the performance.
The odds of producing a certain color or factor when several are present in the pair, goes up proportionally by the number of factors involved. It just stands to reason very few birds would be produced that would be picture book phenotypes that you might identify. You seem to care more about color factors than I do. Do you see the light yet? Go to the light, Scotty! LOL!
Cliff
|
George R.
1299 posts
Jan 14, 2009
6:47 PM
|
any more input guys
|
Hector Coya
387 posts
Jan 14, 2009
7:24 PM
|
One off question,Is a white Boxer Dog a Boxer?
Becouse AKC will not paper a white Boxer,,,
Dose that mean they dont exist?
Becouse white Boxers are born till this day out of Brindles or Fawn color Boxers.
When your dog has a white your supose to make sure you spade or nuter it so they dont reproduce more white Boxers,you know what its been over 100 years and they still cant get rid og that Gene.
Its like the Rollers colors are hiden and will eventually come out.
hector Coya-SGVS
|
gotspin7
2196 posts
Jan 14, 2009
7:55 PM
|
Hector, you are missing it a little bro.
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Hector Coya
388 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:05 PM
|
Sal,you didnt answer the question,Is a white Boxer a pure bred Boxer? Just your opinion.
Hector Coya-SGVS
|
Southplainsroller
4 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:07 PM
|
we are all breeding a preformance breed, so a set standard of conformation seems like it would be slightly difficult. Types, colors, and such vary among every strain. obviously some traits like cliff mentioned that are undeniable of our birds, but what we are all breeding for is preformace, that is our standard. The ability for our birds to roll with velocity, style, and have the mental strengh to control it. Ultimately I believe our standard is in the roll. Size varies, color varies so how would we set a standard on that. What we want is good rollers. If we had a set confirmation standard many good rollers wouldnt fit the bill as far as size, type etc. But it does what it was bred for, Roll.
|
gotspin7
2199 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:09 PM
|
Hector, I will answer your question, but first I have another one for you. How do you feel about the all white german shepherd?
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Hector Coya
389 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:21 PM
|
The same as i feel about the white Boxer,it was introduced to get a body caracteristic,the color came with it and it cant be eliminated.
Its been over 100 years since the breed was recognized ,like the German Shepard,Ive seen whites from a friend that had pure AKC Shepards,same thing at that time AKC did not recognize them, (I heard they do now)
What People dont realize is every breed at one point was man made from other breeds,The Birmingham Roller is no diferent,or do you think God invented the Roller?
All the breeds we have are the work of many hundreds of years of breeding and inbreeding to get what ever we wanted.Hector Coya_SGVS
|
Big Block
30 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:58 PM
|
I find this debate very interesting. I'm learning alot about the breed, colors and the history of both. I've been back into rollers for 9yrs now and I had one goal in mind, breeding the best quality spinners I can (color not withstanding).
My question is, Am I wasting my time competing if my birds are judged in the kit box. Depending on the judges preference. (Breed or color) The opinions on both side of this issue goes deep. I would hate to score high because of the color of my birds and the same for the opposite. Do you guys think color would play that much of a factor?
Block, WATTSUPLOFT
|
Hector Coya
390 posts
Jan 14, 2009
9:04 PM
|
Thats why i dont think the judge should look you birds over before you release them,that way he whont be prejiduse to colors he may find offencive to his standard.Hector Coya-SGVS
|