Scott
1423 posts
Jan 15, 2009
6:06 AM
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Block, a kit of birds in the sky is just that,a kit of birds, when you are judging there is nothing else but you and that kit of birds, good kits are hard to deny and bad kits are obvious.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
184 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:25 AM
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This topic has been debated ad nauseum. I'm not taking the bait to continue the debate. It is clear there are two sides which will not agree, so lets just agree to disagree and move on with the important stuff like performance!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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yellowking
25 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:30 AM
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This is a very interesting post. Took me like 10 minutes to read it all. I feel like an expert now!
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WHEN I CULL, I PRETEND I AM A POSSESSED NINJA
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J_Star
1835 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:25 AM
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It must be winter and the birds in lock down. Everybody say Hello to color vs. performance debates. There will be plenty of them coming soon.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 8:25 AM
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Ballrollers
1635 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:27 AM
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Jay,
I'm still busy flying birds...nine kits every Friday, Saturday and Sunday when I'm off work. No lockdown until February...maybe.....
Cliff
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J_Star
1837 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:33 AM
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Cliff, nice to hear from you. Here we have it -5 degrees without wind shill factor. No one can stay outside for couple of minutes. Even the dogs don't want to go outside to do their business. How lucky you are!! 9 kits!! That is a job and a half by itself.
Jay
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Scott
1424 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:41 AM
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Cliff, nine kits ? holy cow, I did 6 one year and it was too much, now I do 3 which is perfect for me and keeps me focused on my quality pairs.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
185 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:44 AM
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-4 here this morning and I have squabs that just hatched yesterday. I was flying 2 kits but like Jay said, too cold now. Supposed to be in the 50s by Sunday. Temp is like a yoyo.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
1637 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:58 AM
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Jay/Scott,
I feel for you guys and your birds in that kind of cold. I just couldn't hack it. Three of those are donated kits that I am trying to keep in shape until the weather is decent to support safe shipping. I try to keep birds coming into spin most every month. Yes, it is a job and a half...but a labor of love!
Cliff
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-mannyfresh- spins
93 posts
Jan 15, 2009
1:17 PM
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wow...now this is a real descussion and not a debate..This is what a real exhchange of knowledge should be..Being that im a newbie, I don't have much that I can add..But I am glad that this has taken place bcuz disscussions like this are what really helps us newbies...n that's my 2 cents..
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-mannyfresh- spins
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 1:19 PM
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Scott
1427 posts
Jan 15, 2009
1:56 PM
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Why do you have to breed so many Cliff ? just curious
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Big Block
31 posts
Jan 15, 2009
3:14 PM
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scott, performance of a kit shuold be the judges main focus on a particular kit, but with all this talk about BR and color it appears to me a judge could be prejudiced? JMO
Block
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Ballrollers
1640 posts
Jan 15, 2009
5:05 PM
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Scott,
.....So I will have more cream rise to the surface! The truth is I get a lot of requests for birds; some for auctions, some for friends, some for the hawks, some for the overflys and some for me to fly in competition. I am lucky enough to live in an area where I can breed and fly year 'round, and I enjoy every aspect of the process, but especially seeing young birds come into spin, which I enjoy almost every month of the year.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1641 posts
Jan 15, 2009
5:24 PM
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Block,
As I said before, most competition roller men don't give two hoots about the color of the feathers. Although it was a significant concern in the past...so much so that many men bred, flew, and won with these birds, but never openly discussed the background and family of birds for fear of prejudice and bieas in judging. Today, most legitimate roller men will only be impressed by what they see in the air. On this site, you tend to get a skewed picture of the bias from a few vocal guys; a relatively small segment of the hobby. When any man refers to another man's Rollers using derogatory terms, he is probably prejudiced/biased, whether he knows it or not, and whether or not he will admit it publically. A man who holds himself out as an objective roller judge, but loudly proclaims his personal bias against this color or that color, may need to refrain from such "colorful" language. LOL!They may tell you that they only see the performance when they are scoring a kit, but one has to wonder if they are truly able to eliminate their bias when judging. To date, in my experience in NBRC and World Cup competition over the past four years, I have had judges from all over the country in my own yard; and I have stood under the kits of many other roller men that were being judged, and have seen no hint of color bias of any sort.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 5:25 PM
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J_Star
1839 posts
Jan 16, 2009
6:00 AM
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Good post Cliff.
Jay
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Scott
1439 posts
Jan 16, 2009
6:05 AM
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(so much so that many men bred, flew, and won with these birds, but never openly discussed the background )
Who are these men Cliff ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Windjammer Loft
650 posts
Jan 16, 2009
2:01 PM
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Hector Coya.....as a person with more experience with dogs then rollers. I can answer your question very simple about the Boxers... Yes it still is a Boxer but,the problem lies within. As far as A.K.C. is concerned. A white boxer is NOT registerable.
And I see it as a PERSON problem...Their some breeders out their that just see the animals or birds as $$$$. I know many reputable breeders, as well as myself that will put down any white boxer born,or any other breed of dog that is missed colored REGUARDLESS.
On the other hand their are breeders that won't, because again all they see is the $$$$..
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2009 2:05 PM
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gotspin7
2201 posts
Jan 16, 2009
5:52 PM
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Hector, I do think god made the rollers...lol... Hey the reason why I brought up the comparison of the German Shepherd is that it is a perfomance breed while the boxer is just a dog they made for a certain look (what are boxers bred for)? I think if we did some history on the boxer we would know why, they cull them if they come out white. As far as the white German Shepherd goes, someone decided to put that color in it and it is not a true pure bred German Shepherd. Same thing with the color birds, if you have a performance breed why would you go outside the lines or breed for a COLOR? Hector, I enjoyed to talking with you on this subject.
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Sal Ortiz
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
139 posts
Jan 16, 2009
6:19 PM
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Gotspin7...what makes you think they did 'go outside the lines or breed for a color"..go to the thread "Origins of the Birmingham Roller" and see where they came from and in what colors..All the color is there..has been there...will be there...Now if you only want a certain color or certain colors for your spinners...breed that way..you pay the feed bill..but I would call you a "Color Breeder" because you refuse to believe there are any other birds besides a "certain color" in the world. (I am smiling)
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De Oppresso Liber
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gotspin7
2202 posts
Jan 17, 2009
6:50 AM
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Longroller, I am glad you are smiling. One thing is that I do have an open when it comes to color, the only problem I have is that only a couple have admitted on going outside the breed for the color and with time put the roll back in the birds. I did look at thread and it means nothing, we also had color breeders in those breeds that ruined some of those breeds, I have read in the past the oriental roller was a great rolling bird and now it is only a meer tumbler (what happened)? Hey I am smiling too!..LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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bman
630 posts
Jan 18, 2009
6:41 AM
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It really has nothing to do with the discussion,but to set the record straight WHITE was not added to German shepherds. It was there at there origin. The original breeders selected away from the white (recessive) gene as a matter of preference.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Windjammer Loft
658 posts
Jan 18, 2009
7:31 AM
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Thanks bman....Your exactly right about the white GSD, I didn't want to look like a know-it-all....lol
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 7:33 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2333 posts
Jan 19, 2009
12:48 PM
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I took a look at one of my squeakers today as its just turn 30 days old I said these words what beautiful color .its a black and white wing beard cock that to me its a nice color... colorful to me... now its up to me to keep this line going good as it ages..is it because the color that will cause it to stay unstable or fall apart or is it my management...cause I read here that colorful birds will fall apart as they get mature in age.I mean real color birds not the one I just describe.. to me its all about the management with good BR..?
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Ralph
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
146 posts
Jan 19, 2009
5:55 PM
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Gotspin..your 2201 post.."why would you go outside the lines or breed for color" and your 2202 "go outside THE BREED for color and with time put the roll back"...I agree with your 2202 post..but you did not say anything about going outside the Breed of rollers in your first post. I agree that a roller breeder should definately not go outside the breed of Birmingham roller to produce color..my point is that he does not need to !!! It is all there..just take a genetics course and breed what ever you want..as long as it is performance oriented...again..slap my mouth..I am sounding like James. (smile)
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De Oppresso Liber
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gotspin7
2206 posts
Jan 19, 2009
6:11 PM
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B-man, I guess I do not know everything. My bad...LOL..In my experience seeing white german shepherds they looked if they had mixed with something I might of just been the ones I saw.
Longroller, I will say that I never have and never will. As you can see these got all the colors I need....lol
I pack mine full of roll..SMILE..
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2009 6:17 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2337 posts
Jan 19, 2009
7:16 PM
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Now Sal those are colorful got me smiling too..
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Ralph
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bman
632 posts
Jan 20, 2009
7:39 AM
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Hey Sal, nice looking birds. As far as the white sheherds they are now regonized as a seperate breed by the UKC, so you are probably right about them having a slightly different look.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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