ezeedad
518 posts
May 15, 2008
5:46 PM
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There is a biological "law", the Hardy Weinberg principle of genetic equilibrium, that explains the reasons why a species changes. The same thing applies to a breed.... Even more so. I found pictures showing just how much white kings have changed..probably in the last 40 years or so.
Old Type..
New Type
This makes me wonder just how much has the Birmingham Roller changed..
Gomez
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smoke747
1135 posts
May 15, 2008
5:48 PM
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Paul, the second bird looks like a modena.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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katyroller
179 posts
May 15, 2008
5:58 PM
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That first bird looks like a utility King which were/are raised for meat only. That second bird is definitely a show King.
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sippi
246 posts
May 15, 2008
6:33 PM
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Thats the infamous "power look" that show breeders like. They cross in Holle Cropper, Modena, Pouter, and in the case of Orientals, American Fantail for the power look. American breeders are the main ones that do this. I dont know why they want all birds to look like this. Soon they will all look like modenas. Wonder which one they used for "Show Rollers". They are some ugly too.
Sippi
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 6:34 PM
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smoke747
1136 posts
May 15, 2008
7:05 PM
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Paul, thanks,I got the message you left on my phone. I appreciate it alot.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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ezeedad
521 posts
May 15, 2008
7:41 PM
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Katyroller,
Oh, so they are two seperate breeds? Then I need to look to see what the oldest show kings looked like..
Keith, I'm sure they were crossed with modenas... Looks like they've out Modenad the modenas..
I should have thought about that other thing sooner than I did.
Sippi,
Thanks for the good info..
Paul G
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ezeedad
522 posts
May 15, 2008
8:03 PM
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Here's basically what the original show kings looked like, I guess... It's a Swiss Mondaine.
Paul G
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crystalpalace
346 posts
May 15, 2008
8:31 PM
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I was introduced to the original utulity pigeons and show kings in the late 1930s. There were many utility and show birds in those days that no longer exists. I owned and bred utility and show kings in many colors in the 1940s in Modesto, California. R.C. King was the breeder that bred the first silver king in Hayward, California. Some of the pigeons I bred in those days can be observed in the book called the Pigeon, A lady friend of my mother had a barn full of the original utility white kings. They flew in and out of the barn and it was a beautifull site. I came home with one pair that day. Then my mother bought me three pair of show kings. The colors were white,blue,and silver and we picked them up at the railroad station. I owned white swiss mondains,giant runts,spanish runts,red carneau and other large pigeons for many years. large racing homers were used for squabbing purposes too. I have lot of old pigeon magazines that depict pigeons that are no longer observed. There are several squab farms in the stanislaus district around Modesto, California. Oh some of the old stock has been bred and crossed into the modern day pigeons. Lot of the original stock of pigeons could fly respectfully but they are to large now to get airborn like in the past. It would be wise to study past history in the pigeon fancy before posting. Francis Ray Sanchez.
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WaTtS UpP
790 posts
May 15, 2008
8:34 PM
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what up paul
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Watts uppp homeboy
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crystalpalace
347 posts
May 15, 2008
8:48 PM
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Fellow fanciers the original white swiss mondaine was narrow threw the wing butts and long casted. I bred them and they looked different from the picture that ezeedad posted. Mr. Green crossed the white show king to his white modenas while living in Los Angeles. I bred and showed modenas that were smaller than the ones exhibited today. They still show some modenas in Europe that depict the old standard shown in America. The American show king has been crossed into many varities of pigeons in the United States of America. Lot of the original variety of pigeons can still be found in Europe. Ray Sanchez.
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Scott
549 posts
May 15, 2008
9:09 PM
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Ray,it is disheatning the breeds that we have lost in this country due to the crossbreeders,one being my old favorite the Modena, I also enjoyed the utility kings.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 15, 2008 9:20 PM
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Scott
555 posts
May 15, 2008
9:57 PM
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paul, that is what happens when you cross in a bird from the pet store.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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washington86
392 posts
May 15, 2008
10:00 PM
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NATURAL SELECTION can change every living thing on earth. Maybe a roller in the future might come out to be something that we can never image.
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W.Cha
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ezeedad
523 posts
May 15, 2008
10:56 PM
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Ray Sanchez,
I was just trying to illustrate how one breed has changed over time. I couldn't find the pictures I was looking for.. My appologies for not being accurate, but I think I got the general idea... But there were a lot of other breeds I could have shown.. So many breeds have changed .
The main idea I was trying to illustrate was how other breeds have changed. I am sure that "Birmingham" rollers have changed too.
Gomez
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ezeedad
524 posts
May 15, 2008
11:11 PM
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Scott,
I didn't know that there was a pet shop gene... LOL..!!
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sippi
250 posts
May 16, 2008
8:08 AM
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Ezeedad I think that the Birmingham roller has probably changed less than any of the breeds that are shown. The reason being that the main part of "standard" for the Birmingham Roller is an intangible description. Whereas the "standard" for the show breeds is tangible.
As long as we breed for the intangible parts of the "standard" nature will continue to make the tangible parts uniform. The body type and structure will continue to be that which is most conducive for the roll.
The breeder that strives for performance only without regard to color, ornaments, size, or structure has no control in the overall looks of the bird.
That is where human nature interferes. Each breeder has certain nuances he tries to insert into his line. From as small as hard color to soft color therefore influencing color. Large to small affecting size. Breeding for muffs and so on.
Breeders are why we have differing degrees of looks in the birds that we have today. But the "standard" for the roll is what will keep them from changing too much now or ever.
Our deviation from the "standard", my opinion only, is what has made the birds more compact. We have disallowed the bird that finishes the roll with a twizzle or plate roll. When we as the fraternity make these changes then we will affect the looks of the bird. Nothing other than a deviation from the "standard" will change the physical looks of the Birmingham Roller.
Sippi
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ezeedad
525 posts
May 16, 2008
9:25 AM
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Sippi,
Agreed for the most part. But I think that we were schooled correctly by Pensomto be aware of the correct body type, and also to select certain other characteristics that we see on the ground.
I'll add some changes to what you mention (smaller size and more limited type of performance)
Less EXTREME DEPTH... There used to be more that would roll 100 feet or more... also more rolldowns
fewer show the HOLE... Some guys say they've never seen it.
Less DEEP KEEL birds... Personally I shy away from them, but I remember seeing a lot of them around.
Birds not as LONG IN BODY and TAIL..
At least that is what I've noticed around here..
Gomez
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sippi
251 posts
May 16, 2008
10:17 AM
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The biggest change I have seen in the last forty years is the overall length of the bird.
Again my thoughts only, but I think the breeding for extreme velocity and less depth has caused nature to cause the shorter compact birds. Just an observation between comp birds and Fireballs which are bred for depth. Even though both are Birmingham based they have been bred for different things.
I can look in my kit box and see the difference without looking at the birds band. The deeper Fireballs seem to be the longest cast. But they cant roll with the velocity of the shorter cast birds as a whole.
Sippi
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 10:20 AM
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nicksiders
2796 posts
May 16, 2008
7:01 PM
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The size and form of today's Fireball Rollers reminds me of the Birminghams of 40 years ago.
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Scott
570 posts
May 16, 2008
8:02 PM
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Personaly I like cast on my birds, they are smoother in the roll and have better style, talking my birds here.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
682 posts
May 16, 2008
8:03 PM
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Pet Shop gene LOL.............
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sippi
258 posts
May 16, 2008
8:48 PM
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Scott post some pics. I dont recall ever seeing your birds. Of course I dont recall a lot. Are your birds the compact apple body type or the longer cast?
Sippi
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Scott
573 posts
May 16, 2008
9:05 PM
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Paul, post your email
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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katyroller
184 posts
May 17, 2008
5:03 AM
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ezeedad, I believe the Utility King and Show king are now considered to be two seperate breeds, I could be wrong. Kind of like the Racing Homer and the Show Homer. The Show King definitely has Modena in it's makeup.
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DeepSpinLofts
755 posts
May 17, 2008
5:14 AM
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re: How has the Birmingham Roller Changed
To sum up your query let's just say that the BRP has evolved (changed) by genetic engineering and selective breeding procedures.
Several thousands of years ago it would have been called the Rock Dove or (Rock Pigeon) and not a Birmingham Roller.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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katyroller
185 posts
May 17, 2008
5:14 AM
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Guys, Alot of the so called lost breeds in the US are not actually lost. The guys that are crossbreeding had to get their original stock from someone. Alot of the original breeders are still out there but you have to look for them. I have a family of L.V. French Fireballs that have been kept pure for over 30 years. I had to look long and hard to find them but I did.
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Windjammer Loft
319 posts
May 17, 2008
6:20 AM
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Hey ezeedad... That first pic you posted reminds me of WHY I got into pigeons in the first place. As a youngster (Iam 60 now) I met an Old Timer that raised the White Kings and I knew thats the kind of pigeons I wanted to raise.. Boy, how things have changed..Thanks for the reminder
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on May 17, 2008 6:20 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
756 posts
May 17, 2008
9:06 AM
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One thing that puzzles me is this; why is a Runt pigeon (which is larger than a King) called a Runt?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 2:30 PM
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ezeedad
530 posts
May 18, 2008
11:34 AM
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Scott,
I have to agree with you about the longer cast birds having a smoother style. I am now trying to breed backwards to bring that back into my family.
In regards to the almond color.. Looks like you have something there too.. I just read this...
"just as there were never any Almond Birmingham Rollers. The Almond or "ermine" coloration exists in North American Rollers due only to it's Asiatic parent. If you posess an Almond Roller you can be sure that there is. North American ancestory behind the bird at some point."
Paul G
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sippi
260 posts
May 18, 2008
12:25 PM
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Paul the almond gene was in the Pensom Birms as well. The PRC changed the standard in 1949 to try and eliminate the color from the show room. This is in the form of a letter written in 49, but I would have to re-read half a book to find it again.
Sippi
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Scott
591 posts
May 18, 2008
12:30 PM
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(Paul the almond gene was in the Pensom Birms as well. The PRC changed the standard in 1949 to try and eliminate the color from the show room. )
Paul, Pensom also had yellows , but not in his main line, I have not seen any pictures of Almonds in any of the imports,nor do I see it in current English birds, not saying it isn't,just havn't seen it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
262 posts
May 18, 2008
12:38 PM
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Cant disagree with you there Scott. I really like almond and wish I had some. I just havent seen a family that had any that were of the caliber I wanted.
Pensom kept yellows to sell. He stated that somewhere. I dont remember which book I read it in. Maybe an old APJ. He didnt like yellows, he considered them weak because of the dilute gene.
Almond is probably the easiest color to eliminate. You just dont breed the almond bird and it is gone.
Sippi
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Scott
592 posts
May 18, 2008
12:53 PM
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Paul, was just pondering this as I was out back in my SpongeBob boxer shorts (turning my spa into a pool ,over a 100 here).
Why would the PRC say no Almonds ? was it due to they knew that they were crosses ? it is the only thing that makes sence , back when the birds in show were also supposed to be performers, then came the so called duel Purpose,there are many old PRC guys still around that should be able to answer this,
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
531 posts
May 18, 2008
1:10 PM
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Sippi,
I can't agree with this... I believe it is a genetic myth..
"Almond is probably the easiest color to eliminate. You just dont breed the almond bird and it is gone." This is in effect saying that almond is a simple dominant gene. But from my experience I find that it is not.
I had the almond gene (or qualmond), somehow dormant in my gene pool. It reappeared from birds that were not almond. Earlier, Cornell Norwood bred a qualmond out of birds that Pensom had produced, which showed no qualmond characteristics...
Gomez
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 8:11 PM
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ezeedad
532 posts
May 18, 2008
1:12 PM
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Katyroller,
I believe you're 100% right in both of your posts..
Gomez
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Scott
593 posts
May 18, 2008
1:14 PM
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Paul, you bred in a bird from the feed or pet store years back , it was an Almond wasn't it ?
What is the difference between an Almond and a qualmond ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
533 posts
May 18, 2008
1:24 PM
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Scott,
I think the difference is that the almonds have a brown or tan kind of base color, and the qualmonds have a greyish base color. Also the homozygous almonds are supposed to have bad eyes, but the homozygous qualmonds are OK.
But since my experience with those colors tells me that the genetics guys haven't figured it all out, I have never bothered to look too much into pigeon color genetics. I breed mainly for speed.
Gomez
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George R.
694 posts
May 18, 2008
1:24 PM
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Pensom sold Birds to the Petshop ????????
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ezeedad
534 posts
May 18, 2008
1:31 PM
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Scott,
I think you're probably into your second or third beer by now... kicking back in your spongebob shorts... fan on... getting ready to try and drop a bomb... Also I see George, roasting in Vegas... coming in on the opposite side to start his move...
Bring it on...!! I got something for ya...!!! LOL..!!
Gomez
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George R.
697 posts
May 18, 2008
1:33 PM
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Paul thanks for the laugh LOLOLOLOLOL
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Scott
594 posts
May 18, 2008
1:42 PM
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Scott,
I think you're probably into your second or third beer by now... kicking back in your spongebob shorts... fan on... getting ready to try and drop a bomb... Also I see George, roasting in Vegas... coming in on the opposite side to start his move...
Bring it on...!! I got something for ya...!!! LOL..!!
Gomez
Actually havn't drank since 85 , man you think I'm bad now LOL,
Now tell us about that Almond
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 1:44 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
769 posts
May 18, 2008
2:36 PM
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I hate to interrupt you fellas private conversation, but this Don Rickles type roast (jokey-joke) cracked me the hell up!
Darn near pissed on myself!
====> "I think you're probably into your second or third beer by now... kicking back in your spongebob shorts"
he.....he.....he......he.....he.....
he......he.....he.....he......he.....
he.....he......he.....he.....he......
he.....he.....he......he.....he.....
he......he.....he.....he......he
.....he.....he......
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 2:37 PM
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ezeedad
535 posts
May 18, 2008
2:51 PM
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OK Scott,
I'm sure I've done this before... but, okay.
I got the NBRC Almond cock from Aubry Sinclair, who told me that he got it from the Brooklyn Pet Shop in East L.A. this was back in about 1975. I bred it to the qualmond hen, that I called silver almond at that time. Cornell had bred it from a bird he called "The Strawberry cock" and another Pensom bred bird.
I bred several white birds with black and brown ticking. I took their best offspring, which was just about a 5 footer, and bred him to a black hen which was a good solid spinner, and produced another of those silver almond kind of birds that went about 20 feet. He was where the "almond" genes in my family came from.
From that point on, I just treated it like another color. At one point I realized that the color seemed to be missing from my family, but then it came back. My belief was that it was a dominant gene, but when that happened I had to regroup.. Really, a little light should have come on from what had happened when the qualmond hen popped out of nowhere at Cornells loft, but I guess I was too busy to think that much about it.
Paul G
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Scott
601 posts
May 18, 2008
3:23 PM
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Paul, did the qualmond come out of his family or just something on his property ?
Have others with his family seen it pop up?
Did you get this hen from him ? if so,why ?
just curious is all, thanks
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
536 posts
May 18, 2008
4:00 PM
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Scott,
If you knew Cornell, you would know that he wouldn't have used anything but a bird he had gotten from Pensom. Of course I understand your reason for questioning it. It was 72 NBRC #3220. I checked my records and I don't have the pedigrees of the parents...
Guess I could ask Don Norwood if he has Cornells records from that time...but really, at this point it doesn't matter... In fact I wouldn't care either... I want spinners.. call 'me what you will... But at the same time I am. curious. Also as you may know, Pensom wasn't always 100% on his records. I found this out when I tried to get info on my foundation hen's father, which I bought from Pensom.
Gomez (one of the "other" Pauls)
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 8:09 PM
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Scott
603 posts
May 18, 2008
4:20 PM
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Thanks Paul,so is a Qualmond an Almond ? are they one and the same ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
264 posts
May 18, 2008
4:26 PM
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I took some time off and got way behind. Almond can only be produced by an almond. That is why it is easy to eliminate. This I have been assured is a genetic definite.
Qualmond on the other hand can pop up without having to have another qualmond to do it. Qualmond and Almond are different but similar.
Scott the reason that they wanted to eliminate the almond was because the show rules allow extra points for almond and the other classes couldnt win against the classic almonds.
I will find the actual letter and post it.
Sippi
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Scott
606 posts
May 18, 2008
4:29 PM
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Thanks Sippi, good info
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
537 posts
May 18, 2008
4:40 PM
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Sippi, Scott,
I just got this off Barnhart & Sons racing homer site.
"Classical" almond coloration is the color combination most often seen in the English Shortface Tumbler: golden ground color with haphazard flecking of black and lighter grey throughout. The color got its name from the fact that the ground color is supposed to be the same color as that of the inside of the shell of the almond nut. Unfortunately that classical color is actually the result of several genes: the almond gene plus T-pattern, kite bronze, and recessive red. The almond gene alone, which is sex-linked, simply is a "lightening" gene that cancels the effects of most pigments, making an otherwise blue pigeon look like a dirty white with a few dark flecks. Such birds are often mistaken for homozygous grizzle or some other mutation.
Gomez
PS.. Also this page explains it so well that I'm lost right now... trying to make sense of my experience and what it is saying..
http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/ALMONDALLELES.html
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 4:50 PM
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sippi
265 posts
May 18, 2008
5:19 PM
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Pensom roller movement to eliminat almond.
"A second point of controversy concerned almonds. Color in almonds carried twenty points, which made it possible for a superbly colored almond to win over another almond , not quite so beautiful in color, but other wise in all respects a better bird. ......To be consistant, either almonds had to be barred from competition for Grand Champion, or the almond color value eliminated and all birds on the same standard of points. The latter was decided the best course of action, and the new edition places all judging on the same basis."
A.G. Gierach
April 17, 1949
A letter around changing the judging of Pensom rollers in the show ring which at that date birds were flown as well as shown.
Sippi
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