velocity1
6 posts
Jun 01, 2008
10:56 AM
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When did the BIRMINGHAM ROLLER become a breed? If Pensom was the Authority and He said they were all just common tumblers until each bird earned the title BIRMINGHAM ROLLER by proving its arial attributes, You know once a minute like a spinning ball, eight and ten yards. That's a BIRMINGHAM ROLLER, not a champion, I think Bill said they had to be able to reproduce itself to be a CHAMPION. Remember anyone can have BIRMINGHAM or CHAMPION if Your willing to lower Your Standard.
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3757
765 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:11 AM
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“Remember anyone can have Birmingham or Champion if you are willing to lower your standard (Velocity 1, 2008)."
Can you expand on this because it is not logical? A champion is the highest degree of the true Birmingham roller as described by Bill Pensom so please expand on your meaning of the above statement? How can one lower their standard from the champion which has the highest degree of spinning with perfect style? The goal was to breed as many champions as possible in a given year for most fanciers in bygone years.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 11:16 AM
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Ty Coleman
354 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:15 AM
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Laron i was thinking the same as you posted. Sorta just odd
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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velocity1
7 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:26 AM
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Sorry about that.If pensom say's in order to be a champion a bird must roll once a minute like a spinning ball, eight and ten yards and reproduce it self.So is that the standard everone go's by?
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velocity1
8 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:30 AM
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It's just a question to see how everyone picks their champion, ya i'm for real are you wayne.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 11:31 AM
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W@yne
1375 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:33 AM
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Then why do we need to lower the standard to get a champon it dont make any sense?
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
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Ty Coleman
355 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:39 AM
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You know it when you see it, is the best way i can explain it.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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velocity1
9 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:40 AM
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Wayne you don't need to lower your standard.You have a choice to lower your standard.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 12:10 PM
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W@yne
1376 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:46 AM
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Every year i try to higher my standard to try to get this champion bird within my kit. Just dont seem to make sense why one would lower his standard maybe i ain't that intelligent to realise the question it may be right over my head good day.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 12:11 PM
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Scott
692 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:49 AM
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I have no champians nor do I breed for such, I breed for good solid Birmingham Roller with the whole package and here and there I get lucky and get a a truely exceptional pigeon, these sre tried in stock.
A tumbler here is just a bird that has roll but the mental stength to fight it,I call these culls, nothing more and nothing less.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 11:50 AM
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ezeedad
597 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:51 AM
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Velocity,
I thought you meant that the terms Birmingham and "champion" are applied too freely to undeserving birds.
Looks like everybody is taking you literally...
PG
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PR_rollers
1110 posts
Jun 01, 2008
11:57 AM
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shouldn't have to be a choice because once you lower the standard you can forget about attaining a good Birmingham roller or a champion..
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Ralph
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velocity1
10 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:05 PM
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Sorry if i'm leaving something out of the question.If i'm missing something please help me out.
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velocity1
11 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:09 PM
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Do you go by what pensom has wrote or do you have your own standard?
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velocity1
12 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:21 PM
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By no means am i saying lower your standard.
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Electric-man
1658 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:36 PM
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This is just one of those sensitive subjects that can lead into a heated debate real quick! Lot of different opinions of "champion" here! Lot of different opinions of Pensom here also!
Been a lot of blood spilled here over some of these subjects:
Champion
color
Pensom
eye sign
crest
muffed
Your new here, these guys could take that into consideration! Most will, so don't get discouraged!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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velocity1
13 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:39 PM
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Thank you for the heads up electric-man.
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birdman
588 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:43 PM
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How can a bird be labeled a 'champion' if it hasn't been tested against every other bird that lays claim the same title?
I simply choose to call them MY 'best birds'.
Russ
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kopetsa
762 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:45 PM
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I have never lowered my standards... lol
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Andrew
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Scott
693 posts
Jun 01, 2008
12:57 PM
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(How can a bird be labeled a 'champion' if it hasn't been tested against every other bird that lays claim the same title? )
Gotta throw a wrench in there don't you Russ LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Steve_uk
634 posts
Jun 01, 2008
1:40 PM
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In the UK no one talks about Pensom ive kept rollers quite a while now and i no quite a lot of roller people and go round a lot of flys and ive never once heard anybody mention Bill Pensom.
Steve..
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Scott
694 posts
Jun 01, 2008
1:49 PM
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You know Steve, I rarely here his name spoken either except on the rare occation , for some reason it seams to really only pop up here for the most part.
People here like to quote or mostly mis quote him for agenda purposes
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Alohazona
414 posts
Jun 01, 2008
2:11 PM
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Scott,
I think velocity has brought up an informative post.If you keep the Pensom quote out of it,and the word or meaning of CHAMPION,this could yield some good information.I noticed it has brought some quality posters which I respect,including yourself.I have only labeled one bird a champ to my standards in 7 years of raising rollers.Unfortunatly the rare hawk attack out here got him,I guess he stood out to much,should have pulled him!
Maybe some of this info will help another fancier pull one for stock before something happens.Both you and I know these standouts are very rare.Truthfully I have been a little lost without that bird,he was that good.Aloha,Todd
I guess what I am saying is tell us how your absoulute best perform in the air and have they produced the same if they have been tried in the stock loft.BTW,CONGRATS!!sounds like you are doing well with your birds!!
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 2:22 PM
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Scott
695 posts
Jun 01, 2008
2:22 PM
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Todd, there are a few birds that I still think about that even after a few years,and there are some in stock.
I'm not one to stock the great birds real soon, I want to enjoy them in the air.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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birdman
589 posts
Jun 01, 2008
2:40 PM
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(How can a bird be labeled a 'champion' if it hasn't been tested against every other bird that lays claim the same title? )
Gotta throw a wrench in there don't you Russ LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
OOPS!...I'm thinking a little too deep today. LOL !!
Russ
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velocity1
14 posts
Jun 01, 2008
3:48 PM
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To 3757, I agree with You. I just keep hearing about People having birmingham rollers, but they are not B.R. just be cause they came from birmingham, or because of pedigree or anything else. If BILL PENSOM set the standard by saying its up to each individual's own merit, How everybody has them? Thats not what I see when I go From loft to loft. Or once again Have WE lowerd the standard? How many would you have if you went out back and got rid of every bird that didn't spin like a ball for 8-10 yards about once a minute.
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Scott
696 posts
Jun 01, 2008
4:04 PM
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sheeez , your right it isnt a breed and we all have tumblers.
No bird can give you what you decribe day in and day out,as no bird can hold condition day in and day out.
If you want to start a topic, give us some substance and not this babble garbage trying to knock the breed, tell us about conditioning your flyers to put them at their finest.
How long can you hold them on peak ? when you take them over the edge how fast can you bring them back on form ?
How do you just keep their condition at maintance level ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 5:15 PM
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Ballrollers
1323 posts
Jun 01, 2008
6:04 PM
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Velocity1
Actually, you are making a very good point, but some guys are a just little sensitive about it. Like Scott said, they like to throw Pensom's name around when it is convenient and suits their agenda, as the only strain that represents the Birmingham Roller, but when you look real close...you are right. Pensom did not call those tumblers that did not perform to his standard...Birmingham Rollers...he called them tumblers, as you said...and he repeated this over and over again to try to get the point accross in his writings. Some of these guys are confused about the issue and believe that everything bred out of this line of birds can be called a Birmingham Roller. It's just not true, according to Pensom.
The Birmingham Rollers becomes a breed.... Every day when we put performance before anything else and when a bird we breed meets the performance standard. The Standard has kept us on this pursuit of the TRUE Birmingham Roller for at least the 50 years, if not the last hundred. If these birds are not living up to the standard then we have lost our way. But from my limited experience, the performance breed called Birmingham Roller is alive and well in backyards across the world. One has only to look at the performance levels as demonstrated in the scores posted in the WC, to see, where I base my opinion. Everyday, when a quality spinner, performs in our backyards, it can only strengthen the performance breed known as a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.
Cliff
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velocity1
15 posts
Jun 01, 2008
6:22 PM
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Thank you cliff for understanding where i was coming from.I'm not the best with words.As for you scott i could care less what you think about me or my birds.I haven't knocked the birmingham rollers and i never will.If you think this thread is a bunch of babble garbage then find one that suits you since my question isn't to your standard!
Joey Canteloupe
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2008 6:24 PM
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velocity1
16 posts
Jun 01, 2008
6:28 PM
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My question was, when did a birmingham roller become a breed? I didn't mean to upset anyone. As for using MR. Bill Pensom as a reference, well that's where I got the Quote not misquote. I still hold Him in high esteem as being one of the founding father's, if not the Man. I'm sorry to hear in the country where He came from, they don't even speak His name anymore. As for Me to speak on a subject about maintaining Your birds, I only know what works for Me with My family in My area. I read great things about such Men as George Mason and all His accomplishments and so many of His own countrymen can't even get His bird's to fly. so can I tell You what to do to Yours from where I'm at, No. again I've been enjoying Your forum at a distance, Sorry if I upset anyone. keep looking up!
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Ty Coleman
362 posts
Jun 01, 2008
6:30 PM
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I like this guy lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
698 posts
Jun 01, 2008
9:23 PM
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Joey, the breed has been reconized as a breed since the mid or just anove the mid 1800s , although those that have birds with a polluted gene pools from other breeds for color like to twist the context of Pensoms writings, in his early writings from he 30s uses the term breed over and over again as do many others.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
699 posts
Jun 01, 2008
9:26 PM
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(The Standard has kept us on this pursuit of the TRUE Birmingham Roller for at least the 50 years, if not the last hundred. )
So how did the crossbreeding for color play in on this line of thought Cliff?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
368 posts
Jun 02, 2008
4:32 AM
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The color was also there 50 years ago Scott--its documented! and even before 50 years ago it was there. Here we go again, off topic.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 4:36 AM
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Scott
701 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:02 AM
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Sure it has Ty
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
767 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:06 AM
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Velocity - Thanks for the clarification and you are 100 percent correct. That is why I stated that the goals have changed despite what many think today. Bill Pensom was excited when he bred a handful of champions in a year. It is well known that he stated verbally a myriad of times that he bred about 5-7 champions a year. This is a feat that is still remarkable to me as I know no one that can beet this yet. Using the highest number 7 champions a year not spinner, good rollers but 7 champions. Many do not understand the profoundness of this. I think the biggest misunderstanding is that people try to compare what the goals are of most today to what Bill was doing. This does not mean that the goal today is wrong but it is not the same at all for the majority in the sport. People try to put all rollers in one bag and it is not so. This is why we all need to sit down and listen and respect the different view points of 30 point system, World Cup rules, 11 bird fly etc. People do not like change that is why many today do not relate to the old philosophy because they do not understand it. On the flip side many of us who have been around a while are in the same boat as many do not understand the current philosophy. Neither is right nor wrong just a difference in belief system. Many religions have one person as the center that they all believe in but their beliefs are as different as night and day!
Also, Bill Pensom never did well with a team under the age of 12 months old.
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 6:10 AM
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Scott
702 posts
Jun 02, 2008
6:12 AM
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(Bill Pensom never ever did well with a team under the age of 12 months old.)
LaRon, who does ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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J_Star
1607 posts
Jun 02, 2008
7:15 AM
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Bill Pensom description of a Champion also include that the bird twizzle and roll plate also. To him, a champion bird is capable of doing all that. Today, to our standard, that is a cull. Don’t you think it is time to put his writing behind and follow the standard that we have evolved and developed based on our breeding concept, competition and the way we conceptually and intellectually accept it? So what is a Champion today?
How can a champion produce himself or herself in greater numbers when we all know that a champion has to be mated with another pigeon to produce offsprings and the chromosome is split half between the cock and the hen…that is common knowledge. Then how can a champion produce himself or herself if the offspring blood contains both parents? If you follow the odds in inheritance, 25% of the life time offspring might be like him…but how many rounds do we breed in a year to achieve that!!
Looks like Pensom was producing 7 to 8 of my culls a year based on our standard today. How many of you keep a bird that twizzle at the end of the spin?
Jay
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Ballrollers
1324 posts
Jun 02, 2008
7:31 AM
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Scott,
Who among us has encouraged cross breeding? WHO? The History of the Birmingham Roller has told us crossbreeding did happen....for performance and for color. But some prefer to believe, that the creation of the breed took performance, ONLY, into consideration. But information has come to light to question that assumption. Mistakes are part of history and life, to move forward, we must accept our past to improve our future. The fact is, the Birmingham Roller fancy, specifically the men who fly performance based rollers, now have many choices of colors and factors included in a few families of these birds. Another fact is, some of these families that contain rare color factors, also produce very nice performance spinners, birds that have earned the title of TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. Now I know this upsets you....that mistakes were made in the past history of these birds. But lets leave the past in the past, lets move forward, accept that we have TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS in many varied colors. We have several strains of Brmingham Rollers available to us today. They are here. I even have a few. You even tried a few, they didn't work for you, so what? ONE LESS FROG TO KISS. You found another family that does work for you. Same with me. As long as we fly our birds, so that the standard of performance can define our birds, then we will know, if we are following in the tradition of breeding TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS. As I have heard it said, "good birds can't be denied." All Rollers must prove themselves before they can be called a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1325 posts
Jun 02, 2008
7:41 AM
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Laron/Jay,
We have certainly evolved the standard of performance to eliminate the twizzle...no doubt about it...but that said, I don't think I have ever seen a true champion. I've seen some pretty darn good birds around...but a champion is flawless in every aspect, and there are just not many of those around. To produce 7 or 8 per year of any kind of ideal that one would establish in a pigeon is a feat in itself. Pigeons just don't reproduce performancde qualities with any predictability...and speed appears to be one of the least inheritable.
Competing with young birds in the kit is a last resort, as far as I am concerned, and I try to minimize it. But when one is trying to build up a solid and predictable stock loft (which includes most of us), it's hard to leave those good uns in the kitbox!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 7:45 AM
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3757
768 posts
Jun 02, 2008
9:12 AM
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Velocity - You see my point people still do not know what a champion was to Bill Pensom. They take his writings like some take some religious books in a literal translation. The true champion will and always is rare! They always have been and they are not produced in mass numbers. The subjectivity of the sport will always be there because of the many differences of opinions and beliefs.
"Pensoms champions are culls today" Wow!!!
Cliff - You are right on point with a champion and what people fail to realize about Bills statement is this. "I am taking this out of my book." Bill expanded on what he meant by this twizzle, plate etc to many of his friends and it is this. Years ago people flew their breeders with the old team and the young team. Breeders were not prisoners as they are today because they did not have the same situation. The champion could adapt to both situations flip, etc with young birds and kick ___with the old birds."
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 9:17 AM
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J_Star
1608 posts
Jun 02, 2008
10:51 AM
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For those who did not read Pensom writing about the description of a Champion or has been a while, I copied it here to understand where I am coming from:
“I have been asked this question a lot of times and still fanciers ask the same question. It is generally assumed that the deep solid spinner is the ultimate in perfection, but that is not so. The height of perfection in spinning is the highest velocity in which the bird rotates downwards in a straight line, and in the smallest compass. Perfect spinning is recognized when a small hole, from a side view is easily seen when the bird is rotating. The word deep is also misleading when applied to the depth of pigeon will roll. Some birds will roll over and over for many yards, even a hundred or more. Not the ideal spinner however, as velocity and distance go hand in hand. The deeper a bird rolls the slower will be the rotation at some point, even if it does roll perfectly at the beginning.
In my opinion the most satisfactory depth is around 8 to 9 yards. In this distance an ideal spinner will maintain its speed all the way down. Regularity in the number of times the pigeon rolls in a certain time is also a deciding factor. Forty rolls in 20 minutes would not be anything out of the ordinary for a Champion.
The Champion is extremely versatile since it can vary the distance it rolls at will. In addition to these variations the pigeon can tumble in an orthodox manner of tumbling over and over for several times downwards. It can also twizzle, which is a mode of performing at very high speed in a manner illustrated by twirling of a dinner plate with the finger. This type of performance should not be confused with what is called plate rolling. Plate rolling takes on a twirling pattern like twizzling but it is much slower and it is a very low form of performance. The champion is also capable of what is called mad tumbling, a performance that is expressed in a series of extremely rapid backward somersaults in an apparent horizontal order. The Champion does not perform all these attributes in succession but does so according to the mood it is in, or according to the circumstances in which it finds itself in the kit. Every well-informed fancier I have known has endeavored to produce a bird, which could accomplish these feats.
While the pigeon, which spins in perfect order and with increasing regularity, is a most desirable character, it is far from being the ultimate in performance. The solid roller is not too infrequently produced but the real Champion is rare indeed and we see few of them in our lifetime.”
My problem is with the third paragraph. When my birds fly like that I think something I did in may management that I screwed them up. Could it be the feed, the weather or something else!!! When birds perform in that fashion for a while, I cull them because that is not what we today expect from out top performers.
If in the past they were flying breeders along with the kit birds then we should not be quoting nostalgic verses from nostalgic times. Things have changes tremendously if we keep bringing STANDARDS as to define Birmingham Rollers!!! Is that third paragraph description of a Champion is part of our defined standards today!!! For that reason, if that is Pensom definition of a Champion, then they are nothing but culls in today’s sport.
If I have friends over to watch my birds and my birds decided based on their mood perform in that behavior, I would be criticized of raising junk (rubbish in today’s point view).
Jay
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 10:57 AM
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3757
769 posts
Jun 02, 2008
12:21 PM
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"According to the circumstances in which it finds itself in the kit."
Exactly what my last post stated! Guys, Bill assumed that the fanciers of the day understood what he meant. This is exactly what I was talking about when Pensom flew the champion with the young team. The champion performed “according to the circumstances in which it finds itself in the kit." This rare bird is not only a super performer but is very intelligent.
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155
496 posts
Jun 02, 2008
2:45 PM
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keep it going guys good info..
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dmitch
74 posts
Jun 02, 2008
8:10 PM
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I belive the days of champions or over for one we cant keep a bird for much more than a year for some not that long so how can you define a champion this day in time.Somebody
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velocity1
18 posts
Jun 02, 2008
8:13 PM
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3757, You seem to understand where bill was coming from :) I still have a lot to learn.
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velocity1
19 posts
Jun 02, 2008
8:18 PM
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Have you guy's ever witnessed in your kit that when your birds went into the roll that it looked like they where trying to out do each other?
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3757
770 posts
Jun 02, 2008
8:53 PM
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Velocity - You are doing just fine. I really had a hard time understanding your point but after you defined it the discussions were great.
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155
502 posts
Jun 02, 2008
10:12 PM
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3757
dont let this guy fool you loll he is one of the best breeders and flyers in arizona he knows his birds. he help
me out on times that i needed some help. thanks joey....
you need to come back to your game lets roll birds......
evilloft's
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3757
771 posts
Jun 03, 2008
3:48 AM
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Evils - Understood, but the sentence was not linear :)
Also, I am aware that a lot of fellows just want a reaction to see what other fanciers are thinking or believe. I try to stick with facts and data through my research. My mom use to say "no van a la escuela a comer su almuerzo. Usted debe aprender algo!" Which means do not go to school to eat your lunch. You must learn something!
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 3:50 AM
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