JMUrbon
488 posts
Jun 03, 2008
9:07 AM
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Let me throw a loop hole in this discussion if I may.
I have seen many threads on this forum discussing " The Champion " and there is always somebody that has to step in and say " How do you know it is a champion". My question is that with all of the experience that there is on this forum and abroad Hypothetically if Bill Pensom were to post on this forum todat and state that he breeds 5-7 CHAMPIONS per year how serious do you think he would be taken. Taking into consideration that todays Breeders for the most part frown on the twizzlers. Just a hypothetical question but lets hear your thoughts.
Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
772 posts
Jun 03, 2008
12:17 PM
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I think the question is skewed and misleading as it implies that Bill Pensom loved or liked twizzlers and Bill Pensom would frown on a twizzler also. He stated that the champion can twizzle not that it is a twizzler or that he admired twizzlers. How can anyone frown on, disrespect or not take seriously an individual who played the most important role in the development of the Birmingham roller in America and started the largest roller organization in existence in America today?
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 12:19 PM
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rollsoffury
130 posts
Jun 03, 2008
12:22 PM
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Dam bill pensom was the "shiznit"
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Roll it
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 12:23 PM
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Velo99
1809 posts
Jun 03, 2008
6:21 PM
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Jay
I agree on some points with you. The descripion is a kitbird now and probably too frequent to stay with the kit. Back then I dont think they flew 20 bird kits,more like 8-12. In that setting the bird could probably excel.
As to the twizzle,ever seen a bird hit it right EVERY TIME? I think twizzle is a bail out move.
With Pensom ya gotta read between the lines.
For instance the the tumbler/roller quote. We are roller breeders. The book is entitled The Birmingham Roller not the Birmingham Tumbler.How about this one for a reality show... Roller or Tumbler, we let the audience decide thru the magic of Al Gore`s internet. During the commercial break you can vote Roller or Tumbler. At the end of the show,you`ll pick one bird .... and we cull the rest.
If one can describe his bird as a tumbler it is synonymous with CULL. It isnt a tumbler its a crappy roller therefore a cull. Some of you guys take this seventy year old British English, not American English waaaay too literally.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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/()_)__20___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2008 6:24 PM
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JMUrbon
495 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:28 AM
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3757, This was a hypothetical question and not at all advocating that pensom bred for trizzlers.
I know that a champion in one mans eyes would not be in anothers eyes and that is kinda what I was trying to get at. Most of our very best would not say they were able to produce 5-7 champions per year and I am pretty confident that we have some great breeders today that know exactly what a great bird is and should possess. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
777 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:39 AM
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Joe - I can agree with what you stated in your last post! I have a question for you. Do you feel that, from your experience, that the masses are breeding for the ultimate spinner and to eventually have twenty in a kit? Or let me ask another question. What do you feel are the goals of the average fanciers that you have come in contact with excluding the top 10 percent. I am asking this because I respect your opinion on this question.
Thanks
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JMUrbon
497 posts
Jun 04, 2008
9:01 AM
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"Do you feel that, from your experience, that the masses are breeding for the ultimate spinner and to eventually have twenty in a kit? "
Yes, I just dont think that most understand that in order to build a great kit you have to build a great stock loft. Far too many great birds are lost to preditors just because someone thinks thay need them more in the kit at the time only to lose them.
" What do you feel are the goals of the average fanciers that you have come in contact with excluding the top 10 percent?"
Most flyers are happy with seeing a good bird or two in their kit. Not that they are satisfied with it but on fly day they are ok with it. Most that I have spoken with are happy as long as they can improve their kit from year to year. I personally want to improve the birds in my loft. By way of style and speed while still maintaining the depth that they have. Minimize the roll downs and survive all that I can for the next season. There is nothing better than a good holdover kit. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
778 posts
Jun 04, 2008
10:28 AM
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Thanks Joe
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J_Star
1613 posts
Jun 04, 2008
12:45 PM
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I think most people breed for team performance and not individual performance. That's what people are looking for due to the competition aspect of this sport or simply due to the collective mentality we have around competitor minded people. Therefore, a lone champion in a kit is lost due to the collective performance of the team.
I had a blue bar self last year that spins fast and ferquent for about 25 to 30 feet and does it constently. However, he goes on by himself and leave the kit the whole time they are out. He just loves to perform solo. So I culled him.
Jay
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3757
779 posts
Jun 04, 2008
3:14 PM
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Jay - You should have culled that bird because the individual spinner kits and kits well. I have spoken about this for 30 years and individuals (This is not towards you Jay but a general statement) still think that when the old timers as Richards, Skidmore, Bellfield and Pensom spoke about the individual spinner that they were referring to one bird performing in a team. The individual spinner flies in a kit, performs with the kit, but he or she outshines anything in the kit.
I had an individual tell me the other day that he does not like an individual spinner but he likes a kit. I asked him what he looks for when he stocks a bird or do you stock the entire kit? He began to describe a good performing pigeon that was in his team. I then proceeded to ask him why did he not stock the entire kit which he stated was performing well and he stated that this particular bird was the most exceptional bird in the kit and that the others were not worth stocking. So, you do evaluate the individual performing bird right? He chuckled and finally understood what I was talking about.
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Scott
711 posts
Jun 04, 2008
4:06 PM
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A bird is allways an individule first, that is how A team birds are chosen.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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PR_rollers
1123 posts
Jun 04, 2008
7:28 PM
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5 or 7 champion bird a year for a man like Pensom is not hard to believe especially with the knowledge of breeding best to best.breeding out of 40 pairs and 400 birds a year..7 champion is a very low number.
Ralph
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2009 8:07 PM
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3757
780 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:01 PM
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PR - Here is another story where Bill gets the short end of the stick. My dad used to tell me that if you do what you love to do you will never work a day in your life. Bill Pensom's agreement with Don Andrews was just that. Bill made a living with his birds as he took care of Don Andrews pigeons and worked for Andrews hardware.
So the 400 birds he bred a year was really around 60-100 as this is the amount of young birds that he kept for himself. The 7 champions came from that group. So, he actually bred 28 champions a year but he only counted the birds that he flew personally. There was so much about Bill Pensom that has been forgotten and yes he was human and he was not a god but a master breeder of Rollers, Modena's and tipplers. He also flew racing homers but did not do that well in the races. He really loved the attributes of the homer and the intelligence of this awesome bird. I have heard time and time again about how many birds he bred but no one ever ask what did he do with them and how many did he keep. He was a salesman for Andrews hardware and believe it or not he was not a wealthy man and was somewhat poor. Yes, he had a nice home but he was also content with his work and the hardware store as a salesman and also with his side income with his birds.
Se me puede ir a Puerto Rico el próximo año y quisiera saber si me puede detener a su casa?
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2008 8:11 PM
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PR_rollers
1127 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:56 PM
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laron, my point exactly,we talk about Pensom and some ppl think we looking at him like he is a roller God,he was a master breeder and kitmaster.Just a human being but with an incredible gift. what these man from the past have left behind is not for us to carbon copy but to make better and pass the torch to the next generation.I think if he was alive today he would be proud of what we accomplish today with the Birmingham roller..Time changes and we must go with the change of time if its for better.
Your father was a wise man when he told you that if you do what you love to do you will never work a day in your life.
Confucius says.
"choose a job you love and you would never have to work a day in your life.
Se me puede ir a Puerto Rico el próximo año y quisiera saber si me puede detener a su casa
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Como no Sera un placer .
Ralph
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3757
781 posts
Jun 04, 2008
9:27 PM
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Ralph - Thanks! I will let you know in advance if I am able to make it.
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