George R.
747 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:26 PM
|
can someone please explain how a Bird earns the Title Champion.
|
katyroller
217 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:36 PM
|
I'd like to know that myself. I've had alot of good birds over the years but never had anyone look at my birds and say, "that's a champion". Seems like some guys have a bunch of champions!
|
kopetsa
803 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:40 PM
|
To me all bird are champions that can spin and aren't rolldowns. "A bird is a champion until disproven"
----------
Andrew
|
155
512 posts
Jun 04, 2008
8:43 PM
|
hey george
maybe you should explain to use in your point of view what a real champion is in your point of view.....
evilloft's
|
Scott
715 posts
Jun 04, 2008
9:20 PM
|
by wishing it upon yourself, how else.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
quickspin
682 posts
Jun 04, 2008
10:19 PM
|
There are thing first to consider to be a champion. Not just because I think is a champion.
Use the scoring system that SBRC uses because others will be so easy.
#1 being the velocity of the roller 1 through 10, the faster the bird the higher the number.
#2 Being the style 1 through 10, the tightness and wing position the higher the score.
#3 being the frequency 1-5 the bird would score not just for mere sake of just working but for the working of quality action.
#4 would be 1-5 for depth factor 1 starting about 10-15 ft the depth not being more important than #1 or #2.
Then you would add the total score points out of 30 points max. When a bird that score 26+ points or higher it will be certified. Members will judge not just 1 person.
After you have a bird that score 26+ points it's time to test him in the breeding pen. Then if he produces birds that score 26+ I will consider him a champion.
Now how many champions is there?
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
DeepSpinLofts
834 posts
Jun 05, 2008
1:54 AM
|
A TRUE ROLLER MAN'S VIEW OF THE CHAMPION:
My view of a "Champion Birmingham Roller" is a Biogenetically well bred and high class caliber of bird that stands out against every other aerial performer known to man. The very glimpse of a champion roller in the air will be a jaw dropping, heart stopping experience for the onlooker.
In rolling style, the champion should rapidly spin with a lightning flash blur while displaying what looks like a small tennis shaped ball that has a very small hole (called a donut) in the center. Keep in mind that this hole can and will often shrink in size or appearance due to high velocity rolling (rapid spinning).
All champion rollers should spin downwards smoothly for a considerable distance from the kit (of at least 20ft or more), then cleanly breaking out of the roll.... only to majesticly return back to the kit and do it all over again (as quickly as possible)... several times better than it had rolled earlier.
Now folks let us not forget that the presence of the hole indicates true perfection on the spin... and the tighter the spin the better. Without proper spinning, the roller is either rolling inappropriately (too slowly) or the roll is unsatisfactory for champion credentials and these rollers will never achieve what I call championship status.
....time will tell
After say about 14-18 months, a true champion roller has been vigorously tested and is now routinely prepared to control the depth of the spin while descending rapidly from the kit in proper rolling fashion. If there are no accidents (say predators or something else), a "Champion Roller Pigeon" should be able to put on a magnificently marvelous aerial show right up into their ripe old age.
NOTE: Most important is that it must not only be a champion in the air, but the bird must also be a grand champion in the breeding pen with the microgenetic capability to produce a high percentage of quality spinners. That's right, it must be able to reproduce itself (be pre-potent).
From what I've seen over the years, there is no other class of aerial performers that gives so much gleeful joy and rewarding satisfaction to the onlooker as the performance bred Birmingham Roller Pigeon.
.....so
If any of you are ever fortunate enough to get your hands on a Champion Birmingham Roller Pigeon, covet it, for it is dearly worth its weight in GOLD!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 1:55 AM
|
Scott
718 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:07 AM
|
I have 43 pairs champians,in fact they are so good I don't even need to fly their off spring or their off springs off spring.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 6:08 AM
|
COYOTE33
117 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:30 AM
|
Hey! marcus, please can you have that statement framed, infact post it in the nbrc book so the world can see it. this is a true champion. if you havn't seen it you don't know.
scott you must have some bad birds dude!
coyote
|
3757
782 posts
Jun 05, 2008
8:45 AM
|
Oh what a mess we are in!!!
Quick spin - The SBRC / PRC rules are the best rules that I have come across to judge the quality of an individual bird to date!
Scott - I know you are joking but there are some that may think you are serious (which I know you are not).
|
ezeedad
626 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:13 AM
|
Quickspin,
Glad to see that you see the value of the 30 point system. But I think that to be certified champion the bird should be judged at least 3 times and should be at least 1 1/2 or 2 years old.
Laron,
Do you have rules to certify using the 30 point system?
Paul
|
quickspin
685 posts
Jun 05, 2008
10:14 AM
|
Paul,
You are correct it's better to judge that bird more than once. I thinks I read that it has to be older than 1 year the first time to be judge and again at 1 year later from the first time. But I might be wrong, and it was a total of 3 times to be judge.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
3757
783 posts
Jun 05, 2008
10:21 AM
|
Paul - Yes I do have the rules. We have used it since 1992 with the SBRC. The PRC also uses it also.
|
quickspin
687 posts
Jun 05, 2008
10:33 AM
|
Laron,
How long has it taken to certified a bird? And how many have you guys done in a period of time?
Like there are too many champions bred every year so there should be many certified every year if is that simple.
I would like to be in one just to see where I'm. I know I don't have one but I want to know how far I'm from one.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
DeepSpinLofts
835 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:11 AM
|
Hi Coyote... hope all is well with you and your loved ones.
Maybe in a few years after the NBRC National Fly Director has had a chance to visit my estate and look over my Roller Barn and kit boxes... will I then allow my manuscript titled:
===> "A TRUE ROLLER MAN'S VIEW OF THE CHAMPION:"
Be published.
Talk to you later bud...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
JMUrbon
500 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:20 AM
|
Laron this was kinda were I was going with the previous thread " The Birmingham Roller (Bill Pensom)'. It is easy for someone to say they have a champion in the air but it is very difficult and time consuming to prove it on any kind of scoring system. I was not stateing that Bill Pensom could not do it but rather that it is very dificult to prove them as champions then or now. Joe Urbon
---------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
3757
784 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:40 AM
|
Jim - I can agree with that 1 million percent. When Arnold Jackson, Richard Luna, myself and others were flying in the NBRC we only certified two birds in 5 years. Now, there were some good spinners but only two reached the 27-30 point mark. These birds are rare. Also, Jim how many guys do you know that concentrate only on trying to produce these rare champions?
Quickspin - As I said above we only certified two birds.
|
JMUrbon
501 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:52 AM
|
I cant honestly name one guy that is only concentrating on producing a champion. Most, me included would love to have a loft full of them but to say that I have a loft full of them would just be plain BS. I am more interested in producing a kit full of good to great team workers.I love seeing a great spinner but it had better be able to sustain it for 20 min and be a team worker for me to consider it for stock. Plus we all know that even the best sometimes don't produce the goods.
Joe Urbon
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
3757
787 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:14 PM
|
Jim - Your answer is pure honesty! That is why I have stated a million times that different fanciers have different goals. If we all had group think the world would be boring. I for the life of me cannot understand why so many fanciers are offended if someone is not part of their "Norm." Jim that was great and I wish you all the success!
|
COYOTE33
118 posts
Jun 05, 2008
1:50 PM
|
hey! fellas Laron and jim and that means you especially
marcus, i'm just glad we can have this type of discussion
and we are on the same page when it comes to a champion, infact me and paul where just discussing this the other day. this should be the goal of all, to breed the ture champion br, there is just no other way. maybe its because
some havn't seen a champion so they don't know what to reach for. the key word here is doughnut,a doughnut has a hole in it, You really can'texpress it any better than that.Im not trying to knock anybody but this is the standard, this is the goal.
coyote
|
JMUrbon
510 posts
Jun 05, 2008
1:57 PM
|
Hey Laron, Coyote my name for the record is Joe.LOL I can see from my sign in name were you could get Jim from it and you are definately not the first. LOL... Joe Urbon
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 6:10 PM
|
3757
789 posts
Jun 05, 2008
2:36 PM
|
Joe - Pardonner moi mon amie!
Thanks Joe!
|
JMUrbon
513 posts
Jun 05, 2008
2:43 PM
|
LOL. Not a problem Laron. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
DeepSpinLofts
836 posts
Jun 05, 2008
4:30 PM
|
Hi Joe...
How are Those Proven Family of Spinners doing?
Fine I bet!
...well anyway
When was the last time you bumped into Todd Hess, Dave Henderson, Carl Schoelkopf or Don Siggins?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
JMUrbon
517 posts
Jun 05, 2008
5:28 PM
|
Don and Dave quite regularly and I speak to Carl as often as I can. Todd stepped away from the birds for awhile and is just getting back into them.
As for myself I have been away from home for about 9 monthes except for the weekends so my son has taken the rope for me for now. I am a heavy equipment mechanic and an owner operator at that so the way the economy is I have to follow the work. The only reason I have been able to post on this site lately is because every piece of equipment on this job is running. Very boring for me but making the company that has them rented money and thats what I want.I will get more involved and maybe even get another kit together as soon as I get back home. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
DeepSpinLofts
837 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:19 PM
|
It sounds like you're a hard working man Joe (a heavy equipment mechanic and an owner operator).
I'm sure that your family appreciates you (especially your son) that's why he takes tender care of those great birds for you.
I don't know if you are making the big bucks in your business (and I won't inquire)
....however
I strongly feel that there are three ways by which an individual can get wealthy:
1) By work
2) By gift
3) By theft.
MEMO: Clearly the reason the workers get so little is because the beggars and the thieves get so much.
Talk to you later....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 11:59 PM
|
Scott
724 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:24 PM
|
Hey Jim, who's Joe ?
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Hector Coya
160 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:42 PM
|
I think many of you use the word Champion like part of your bird's name.
Bob Scott had a Champion,it was SCRC-72-1570 this bird was flown and competed in individual competition for the NBRC individual fly comp.
unles your bird flew in a fly against somone elses bird and won ,how can you call it a Champion.just like some of our sports like the NBA you watch they will be calling the lakers world Champions and they havent played any other world team.Hector Coya
|
ontariospinners
11 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:51 PM
|
Right behind you on this one hector
Fil Olazabal
|
George R.
749 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:54 PM
|
Hector
I agree NO Bird should ever be called a Champion unless he earns it by beating out the Competition in a Fly .
The only way any animal or human being gets the title Champion is by beating the competion that is entered in the sport that the Animal or Human competes in.
The Great Bobby Chacon and Julio Cesar Chavez did not get in front of some boxing fans and shadow box for the right to be called champions , " THEY DUKED IT OUT" and beat the best opponants in there time .That is the way RaceHorses are crowned "CHAMPIONS" they have to beat the competition by winning races.
Even a Show Champion would have to beat the other Birds in a show to be able to earn the Title "Show Champion"
just like Dogs that are entered in Shows they must earn it by beating the other Dogs.
the Novice George
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 10:37 PM
|
COYOTE33
119 posts
Jun 06, 2008
6:05 AM
|
The problem with defining a champion with competition is, you still have to depend on one man to judge his definition. Its not like the birds are going head up, they are judged in to different arenas. so ultimately everyone should know a champion by the standard, the one that pensom describe and what marcus said earlier. Don't get me wrong i'm not knocking competition, its just to many variations.
coyote
|
3757
790 posts
Jun 06, 2008
7:29 AM
|
Keith - I do not think most understood what you wrote but that is dead on. Most today only think a bird can be a champion if it competes against another bird in some sort of contest and that bird may not be a champion at all just the best out of the group competing. What criterion is used? Yes, he was the champion of that competition but is he a champion based on the understanding that has been used since the last half of the 1800's? He or she could be and maybe the bird is not. I guess all of Bill's birds were junk using the logic that a champion is only a champion based on a competition. This would also include most of the old timers’ pigeons (Smith, Plona etc). The logic today has changed tremendously and not all of it is for the better of the fancy.
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2008 7:41 AM
|
Scott
725 posts
Jun 06, 2008
10:01 AM
|
Of coarse I was joking LaRon , I think that I've made it obvious that I don't get all wrapped up in the "champion" thing.
I breed quite a few culls, some good ones and once in a while I get an exceptional bird , it is really as simple as that for me.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
COYOTE33
120 posts
Jun 06, 2008
10:59 AM
|
Hey marcus!
How is carl schoelkopf? i was up north in redding calif some years ago to visit some of my people and i got the chance to stop and meet carl and see his kit fly. does he still have birds?
coyote
|
DeepSpinLofts
842 posts
Jun 06, 2008
11:05 AM
|
Hi Coyote...
I hear Carl is doing swell. He is pictured on the front page of the July-August 2007 NBRC magazine sitting in a chair.
Do you have that issue?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
JMUrbon
522 posts
Jun 06, 2008
11:09 AM
|
Coyote, Carl is no longer flying rollers. he is flying Racing homers again. Heflew them befor he got into the rollers and decided to get back into them and has really been doing well with them. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Hector Coya
161 posts
Jun 06, 2008
1:46 PM
|
Hey Laron
you said,,I guess all of Bill's birds were junk using the logic that a champion is only a champion based on a competition. No ,they just where not competition Champions.
Hector Coya-SGVS
|
3757
791 posts
Jun 06, 2008
1:58 PM
|
Hector :)
|
Scott
726 posts
Jun 06, 2008
2:21 PM
|
A competition Champion ? what is that , a bird with the whole package which is harder to breed? I will take such a bird any day over any thing other, and pit it against anything.
No one,I repeat, no one is breeding better quality than many of the competition flyers, breeding,flying and training is our heart and soul.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2008 2:23 PM
|
George R.
751 posts
Jun 06, 2008
5:29 PM
|
Coyote said
"The problem with defining a champion with competition is, you still have to depend on one man to judge his definition".
Coyote can you please explain what the difference is between a Judge declaring a Champion and or by going by a so called standard that was written by another man , What is the difference it is still a Judgement Call.
Hector I agree with you one persons Champion may be a average roller to another fancier.
Last Edited by on Jun 06, 2008 5:29 PM
|
elopez
1451 posts
Jun 07, 2008
12:10 AM
|
(No one,I repeat, no one is breeding better quality than many of the competition flyers, breeding,flying and training is our heart and soul.)
I agree, nicely put Scott!
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
|
smoke747
1188 posts
Jun 07, 2008
12:30 AM
|
i have birds that I call my personal champions. it does not aply to no other birds but the ones that are in my loft and backyard. but when talking to other fliers i do not refer to them as champions but really good rollers/spinners.
smoke747
----------
Keith London
ICRC
|
DeepSpinLofts
845 posts
Jun 07, 2008
1:33 AM
|
I had the pleasure to visit Smoke747 a few years ago and can honestly say from my own personal experience that he is definitely a unique roller man of character and distinction.
There are some rather positive things I have learned from talking to Keith which today are being incorporated into the construction of my family of birds here @ Deep Spin Lofts.
Not many folks in the sport/hobby today have put as much time and positive energy (effort) into the building of their families as Keith has. This is why his birds are nationally recognized as such outstanding performers.... because of the time he spends with his birds to make them the best that they can be.
Keith makes a personal statement that many of us have ascertained which is:
===> "i have birds that I call my personal champions."
.....however
Out of respect for other breeders/trainers/flyers in the sport he leaves them with these humble words:
===> "but when talking to other fliers i do not refer to them as champions but really good rollers/spinners."
Hmm.... interesting.
Keith.... from what I have observed, you are a good family man and a magnificently marvelous asset to your community. Keep flippin those birds until you too go down in history as one of the all time greats. (smile)
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
COYOTE33
121 posts
Jun 07, 2008
6:08 AM
|
Hey george! good to here from you. After making that statement i was also thinking maybe we should certify the judge. His certification would be based on the standard and nothing else. Because we have not zero in on the standard, in other words all agree on it, that's why i think there are so many variations.Why have a man come judge a champion if he doesn't know what a champion is. If all of us can come together and agree what the standard of a champion is,then it might work.
Kieth i like your statement as well "personnal champion"
coyote
|
3757
792 posts
Jun 07, 2008
7:06 AM
|
(No one,I repeat, no one is breeding better quality than many of the competition flyers, breeding,flying and training is our heart and soul.)
I would never teach this to my students who take my class. First, you are implying that breeding, flying and training is not the heart and soul of those who "do not compete". Secondly, are you including individual competitions, club competitions or the just National competitions? Are you including the individuals who entered the California classic etc or other futurities? By the way have you ever done any research/statistical data on the individuals that won the California classics? Were they all National competition flyers? Newbie’s, statements like this divide not unite. It makes the new guy who is coming home from work and eager to fly his kit feel like he does not have his heart and soul into it his breeding, flying, and training. It makes old timers, some who are still alive, who read the post furious as if they never contributed to this hobby. One of my friends is 90 years old and bred the grand-father to 272 and he laughs and sometimes cries when he reads the statements that are made today. Better than what? I agree that there are great birds being bred today and that competition has made this hobby grow farther than it has ever grown before but the statement is biased because the statement that was made by Hector is true. It would be a competition champion based on the competition that the bird was in! Just because a bird wins a competition does not mean that he or she is the greatest spinner in the world and that goes for the PRC/SBRC or any other club or national competition. Newbies and those who may work two or three jobs never feel the breeding flying and training is not your heart and soul either!
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2008 7:07 AM
|
COYOTE33
122 posts
Jun 07, 2008
8:07 AM
|
sorry keith, didnt mean to butcher your name, i'm at work i have to write fast then jump off the computer.
coyote
|
Scott
731 posts
Jun 07, 2008
8:21 AM
|
LaRon, I stand by that statement 100 0/0, ind or 20 bird for what the breed was breed for it doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is where the talking stops and the rubber hits the Road.
As for your buddy that bred 272 , he is a non issue with these birds and this breed and has been a non issue for a very very long time.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
3757
793 posts
Jun 07, 2008
8:56 AM
|
Scott - I understand you stand by your hypothesis but that is all it is as I stand by mind and mine is that the statement is just an opinion and I respect that. There are all kinds of competitions. As for what the breed was bred for we differ also. If you are saying that the breed was bred to compete in 20 bird competitions as known today I disagree greatly because this is not historically correct especially if you are speaking about Black Country Birmingham rollers. I am one to respect others opinions and to try to bring about Comrades among all breeders of rollers. I think that dogmatic statements, in my opinion, do not help this hobby at all this is just my view. I understand that no matter what people are going to believe what they want to and you or I cannot change that. Keep up the good work and keep them spinning.
|
Scott
732 posts
Jun 07, 2008
9:06 AM
|
LaRon, I can assure that we are not culling our best,
If fact , pick any two ind. flyers you like and myself and Smoke will fly against them in your individule fly with your rules, that is as long as keith is game for it which I can say confidently he will be, how do I know that ? because he is to the bone flyer,it is what we do.
We'll have Arnold Jackson judge it, I think you would agree with him as good choice, now we just need to know who me and Keith are flying against and set a date.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2008 9:10 AM
|
ezeedad
632 posts
Jun 07, 2008
9:10 AM
|
Scott,
How long have you been raising rollers?
Paul G
|