Scott
979 posts
Jul 25, 2008
5:11 PM
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(Example: you don't say your wife is over weight, you keep your mouth shut,)
You know Cliff,this is some sound advise that I could have used a week ago.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
982 posts
Jul 25, 2008
5:54 PM
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Tony , what a crock of dung, trying to tie in mutt colors from colors of Wests(a show breed) like they havn't been polluted even more so than the Birmingham.
I heard that you brought in mongrels to sell , is there any truth to this ? if so it explains a lot where your "new" position is concerned.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2008 6:18 PM
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Ballrollers
1370 posts
Jul 25, 2008
6:49 PM
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Scott,
Let me get this right. You don't want to be a part of the the color position statement.....you admit that you do like to jerk men's chains just to see them react......you still don't understand the family I fly and don't want to.....you allege that color birds are not flown by serious flyers and are not a serious problem to you, yet you never miss a chance to take a cheap shot at the birds and those who fly them. AND NOW YOU SAY YOU ARE LOST???? I am so sorry to hear that. I hope you find yourself in the near future and may you find happiness in jerking peoples chains.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1371 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:05 PM
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Nick,
You are absolutely correct about one thing.....True Birmingham Rollers with color modifiers are,indeed, gaining a firm hold in the lofts of mainstream flyers all accross the country, and we have seen this growing for many years. Most of us who fly this family cannot fill the demand for them...not because of their color, but because of their depth, work rate, speed, and quality performance.
As an aside, the 11 birds flys have also been gaining in popularity every year. It is to the point now that if you exclude California, and only count regions that fly both the 20 and the 11, on the average, the 11 and the 20 birds kits are almost even. Thanks for that encouraging report. You just need to get out more.
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2732 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:25 PM
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Hey Scott, first, read what I said about WHY I am doing this, second, WHAT A CROCK! that someone said I was going to sell color rollers. LMAO!
ABSOLUTELY NOT! That is someone reading intentions that are not there!
Third, who told you this?
I guess maybe some guys are starting to become fearful of what we come up with? We must be on to something for lies and rumors like this to be making the rounds.
Scott, let me just say one more time, I don't want you to miss it, lean over this way and pay attention: go back and tell the person who said this that they are a "LIAR".
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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katyroller
263 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:25 PM
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This is always such an annoying thread but the hardest to walk away from! I've expressed my position on the subject many times and it hasn't changed.
I don't raise "color" birds nor find them interesting. I also don't find the need to attack anyone that decides to breed the "color" birds, hell I ain't paying the feed bill. I also don't raise the so called "pure" BR. I've seen
"pure" BR's that were nothing more than "pure" crap. What I do like, are great "performing" rollers, irregardless of their color or alleged lineage. Anyone can take a couple of birds and spin a great story about them and their ancestors. Rollerman are alot like fisherman, great story tellers.
The solution to the whole debate is for everyone to shut up and let the birds do the talking. The crap will eventually sink and the cream will rise to the top. Sounds like there are folks on both side of the debate that are afraid of the truth.
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Scott
985 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:28 PM
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Cliff, I'm going to ask again. what family ? and what serious flyers ? c,mon cut the dancing.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 25, 2008 7:37 PM
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Scott
986 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:29 PM
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Thanks Tony, that is good to hear !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
987 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:31 PM
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("pure" BR's that were nothing more than "pure" crap)
There is plenty of that,no doubt !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2733 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:34 PM
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BTW, please ask anyone who lives in this area to come over to my loft and take a peak inside, you will not find any birds but my Ruby Roller stock, the jacs I use to foster and the odd Fireball I kept to foster when I did sell them for a while but haven't for quite some time.
You will also see a grizzle hen which was until recently Sal Estrada's top stock hen for over 10 years which is related to my family and a recessive red cock also related both that he gave me as a gift.
I dare anyone take that challenge. I HATE LIARS AND RUMOR MONGERS. NOTHING WORSE IN MY BOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
988 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:35 PM
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(The solution to the whole debate is for everyone to shut up and let the birds do the talking. The crap will eventually sink and the cream will rise to the top.)
Right again !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
989 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:36 PM
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Easy Tony, I allready fed him to the fishes
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2734 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:39 PM
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Hey Scott, I am glad you believe me. Very few people in this hobby I respect as much as you.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Scott
990 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:45 PM
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Cliff you dragging names into this is just like being pegged a racist by the Obama supporters for not supporting a socialist.
The way that you dance around the truth and dip and dodge is comical, and yes I love jerking your chain, after all it is right there easy to reach.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1372 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:50 PM
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Scott,
We won't go there again. I have answered those particular questions for you a dozen times over the past couple years....outlined every World Cup champion and Fall Fly national champions since the 90s that have won with color birds in their kits.....even explained why you, in particular, are unable to identify them when you look right at them. You were unable to acknowledge the facts then and you are unable to do so, now. Is your Alzhimer's really that bad? LOL!
Cliff
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Dave Szab
177 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:50 PM
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Cliff,
I will "attempt to communicate" with you better, since you can't seem to comprehend how I disproved your contention that after many generations, the color crosses are close to "pure". I took the time to go back and cut out the excerpts from our previous posts, so that you can see my point more clearly. No need for me to quote any passages from any book, it's pretty straight forward common sense.
Dave
*******************************************************
Cliff said:
“However, according to the geneticists, you know as well as I, with your basic education in genetics, that after a certain number of generations of breeding back to the original, that the genetic variation is negligible, not pure, but negligible.”
“You are an educated man. You understand the written word. When the genetic texts explain how to cross and bring that cross back to being defined as genetically pure, I believe it.”
Dave said:
“Yes, I agree, that over the years if you keep bringing the color crosses back to pure BRs you are moving toward a pure BR, BUT you know, as well as I, that wasn't always done. Most of these rare colors were lost if you kept bringing the birds back onto pure BRs. So what did these guys that brought in these rare colors do? They crossed the crosses together, or sometimes back onto the F-1 crosses, to get the color back. After all, what was their reasons for the original crosses? It was to get certain colors, or patterns. If they started losing the colors or patterns, they would stop putting these birds back onto pure BRs. Cliff, every time you mate 2 rare colored rollers together, even if they don't have much of the original cross in them, what are you doing? You are moving away from the pure Birmingham Roller, not moving toward it.”
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nicksiders
3009 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:51 PM
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Well, I don't like jerking Cliff's chain..........(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
991 posts
Jul 25, 2008
7:58 PM
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So Cliff, (kits With color birds in them)there was that so hard.
We both know that it wasn't any families of color birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 5:56 AM
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kopetsa
1217 posts
Jul 25, 2008
10:42 PM
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Well.. that is a junky statement.. because a lot of color birds are amazing!
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Andrew
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Ballrollers
1373 posts
Jul 26, 2008
7:47 AM
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Scott,
So if I follow you correctly, there are no "families " of color birds in your mind, just a few birds of color that pop up every now and then in certain families? Gosh, that is good to know. I'll let all the guys know who have been flying this "family" for 10-15 years, that according to the Gospel of Campbell, that they are not flying a "family", highly inbred or not. You are just a wealth of information when it comes to this family (oops-sorry!), its genetics and the identification of its color modifiers. You must have lots of first hand knowledge with the things you speak of. You should go over on Performanceced, or are recessive? This is sooooo enlightening Scotty. Where on Earth did you come by such great wisdom? LOL!
Cliff
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Scott
994 posts
Jul 26, 2008
8:06 AM
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There you go dancing again Cliff ,so I will ask you again ,What Family Cliff ? and who has done well with "just" this family of color birds and those carrying color ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 9:00 AM
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Ballrollers
1375 posts
Jul 26, 2008
1:27 PM
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Scott,
I am tapping my toes now, listen carefully...... da da da da.... LOL! Ask a serious question...you will get a serious answer. I will not respond to your bulls#&t one-liners as somebody called them recently...I think it was Szabatura. If you are so interested why don't you go check it out in person. Then you will see who's flying what birds. I bet you'll be surprised how many flyers there are with rare colors in there lofts. On second thought, though, you probably woldn't recognize then if you saw them...and some of the guys wouldn't bother identifying them for you because they know you would start disrespecting them on public forums. They don't want any part of your crap either. Fact is, If the birds were unstable and no good, as you allege, you wouldn't see any anywhere, anytime, anyplace. Help me understand, again, why you appear to be so interested, but not interested enough to work towards the color position paper? Oh, I remember, you are 100% not inclined to change your stance even in the face of better understanding of all the issues involved. Makes perfect sense to me too. It must be nice to be right all the time.
BTW , are you still LOST? LOL!
Cliff
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wafer kits
105 posts
Jul 26, 2008
1:27 PM
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Tony, Scott, Dave, Cliff, NIck et al
These color wars sure do get long-winded and, in the end, everyone has their needles stuck in the same groove. How important is it to call them 'Birminghams' anyway? After all, even the originals came from several other towns besides Birmingham. You all seem to agree that it is the performance that counts. If that is so, and using the title of Birmingham is so offensive to you why not just call them "Performing Rollers' and let it go at that? If you quit shaking that bone the other dog will have to quit shaking it also! Al
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Ballrollers
1376 posts
Jul 26, 2008
1:54 PM
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Dave,
Let's keep "attempting to communicate." So far we are not doing so well. I can see that you are misinformed about this family. How long did you work with them in oder to draw your conclsuions, did you say? Anyway, I recommend you read my article again on how Turner developed this family. Tony has it posted for your convenience. So, let's try to work through this:
Dave said:
“Yes, I agree, that over the years if you keep bringing the color crosses back to pure BRs you are moving toward a pure BR, BUT you know, as well as I, that wasn't always done. Most of these rare colors were lost if you kept bringing the birds back onto pure BRs."
Absoulutely false, Dave. Let's use Indigo, for example, but it is true for brown, dominant opal, and reduced, as well. Turner brought in one roller with the Indigo gene, and he bred it back to the original Pensom and Lloyd Thompson lines that were the nucleus of this family, and culled the original roller outcross with the gene modifier. Then he continued in-breeding and line-breeding back to the "pure" birds, best to best, for performance for a couple decades. Guess what?! The Indigo gene didn't just dissapear, nor did the others! Imagine that! They followed their genetic inheritance based on dominance and recessiveness of genes.....not some West coast or New York guy's theory that they would just dissapear. I know...it's hard to believe. The nerv of those birds. Anyway, after the number of generations bred back to the originals was sufficient to satisfy the genticists qualification for purity again, then he began to breed the F-1s together and produced Rambo and 007, his pre-potent foundation cocks.
Dave said,
"So what did these guys that brought in these rare colors do? They crossed the crosses together, or sometimes back onto the F-1 crosses, to get the color back. After all, what was their reasons for the original crosses? It was to get certain colors, or patterns. If they started losing the colors or patterns, they would stop putting these birds back onto pure BRs."
I think I dealt with this misguided theory adequately above. I cannot speak for what happened in every roller man's loft. I know my birds, Jays, Joe Bob's, and the ones that Cla HOyle is breeding are heavily inbred 007. 007 is the grandfather of many of my stock birds and I have a few sons and daughters of his, as well, so I know their lineage.
Dave said,
"Cliff, every time you mate 2 rare colored rollers together, even if they don't have much of the original cross in them, what are you doing? You are moving away from the pure Birmingham Roller, not moving toward it.”
Now that we are so many generations from that orignial cross in the late 80s and early 90s, it is irreleant. The birds have been and continue to be bred best to best regardless of color, as any True Birmingham Roller.
I don't expect this to change your mind Dave. It's hard to give up those old theories and mind sets, I know.....and you guys are set in your ways. New information and facts roll off your backs like water off a duck. But thank you for providing the space for an elightenting conversation for some of the new guys.
Cliff
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Velo99
1869 posts
Jul 26, 2008
2:03 PM
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Cliff,
Give it a rest bro.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__20___()_)\__\
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Scott
997 posts
Jul 26, 2008
2:21 PM
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Cliff, What is 007 ? is that the old Almond (Tort) or down from it
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 3:23 PM
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fhtfire
1429 posts
Jul 26, 2008
3:04 PM
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Oh man...I fight a couple fires.....and deal with some family issues and then come back and miss all this FUN!!!
I thought that this was taken care of way back when...we all agreed to disagree!!!
Of course everyone knows where I stand...you can have any color in your loft..they are your birds....you can't call a bird pure if it has been crossed in the recent future....if the birds that were crossed way back when have been bred to follow the roll...then your color will sooner or later be lost.......yes there are birds with color that roll...that does NOT mean that they are PURE brimingham roller....the standard DOES NOT make a bird Pure...a standard is a measuring stick to keep breeders....breeding the best stock that meet the standard so that the breed will remain pure and inferior birds that do Not meet the standard will not make the stock loft.
The one thing that gets my goat...is that most seem to read something that ONE person wrote about a color being crossed in not to long ago...and then because one Person wrote it ...then it is noe law or gospel. Now ....the fact is...if a bird was bred with a west..so one person says....100years ago...then that is not fact it is hear say.....or you have to have FAITH in what you are reading. So Grizzle had to be brought in only....then why do some commies have grizzle....did someone catch one and breed grizzle into the commie pigeons......I don't know....but maybe I will write a paper on it saying that I did it and then everyone will believe it.
Now Turner did some amazing things in keeping color and roll..but I doubt that anybody else could do it...and the amount of time to do it....I do not have that much time....although he did something that was kind of cool in pigeon breeding....he did hurt the breed by doing this...becuase now we have this mess. He was not chasing the roll...he was chasing the color...and it was a "PROJECT"...or "experiment"...you do not experiment with a set breed....whenever you are going to go outside the norm in breeding or break breeding rules...you call it a project...or if you want to try something that is not part of your main goal...you call it a project....Turners color was a project and if it worked so well....everyone would be doing it....anytime you bring in another breed to an established breed to change something you are hurting that breed if you let it get our of the yard.
As for this whole debate...there really is nothing to debate....Follow the standard of the birmingham roller from the get go and you will never get a fancy color....becuase if you follow the standard...a color bird that does not roll from another breed will never enter the stock loft. If you follow the standard for any breed from the begining...then the breed should remain the way it was meant.
For example....if I drive my car sober and get pulled over I will never get a DUI...if I drink and drive....and get pulled over I will get a DUI...well...if you follow the standard of driving from the begining.....you will never get a DUI...if you do not and have a drinking side PROJECT and get in the car...well...get my point...if at the very begining you follow the standard it will be aok..
ok.....I am cracking my knuckles for typing...BRING IT!!
rock and ROLL
paul
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 3:07 PM
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nicksiders
3017 posts
Jul 26, 2008
4:32 PM
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"As for this whole debate...there really is nothing to debate....Follow the standard of the birmingham roller from the get go and you will never get a fancy color....becuase if you follow the standard...a color bird that does not roll from another breed will never enter the stock loft. If you follow the standard for any breed from the begining...then the breed should remain the way it was meant."
I believe
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Dave Szab
178 posts
Jul 26, 2008
5:29 PM
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He's a dancin, dancin, dancin,......he's a dancing machine!!
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fhtfire
1430 posts
Jul 26, 2008
5:44 PM
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Dave...that is some funny stuff!!!!
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gotspin7
1569 posts
Jul 26, 2008
5:46 PM
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I really try to stay away from these posts but Dave you crack me up!LMAO!!
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Sal Ortiz
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Dave Szab
179 posts
Jul 26, 2008
5:49 PM
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Cliff,
Yes certain of the rare colors and patterns carry through, and some don't. It doesn't matter though, because some of the oringinal out cross color bird genes, used at the beginning, are still in those birds and when you breed 2 of those birds carrying those colors together, you are now going away from pure BR.
Dave
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 5:51 PM
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Ballrollers
1377 posts
Jul 26, 2008
9:39 PM
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Scott,
OK Dokey. How many different men's birds were used to create the family you fly? I thought we discussed that after three generations they are your birds, your family. Right? I fly Ball Birds. Gosh I like the sound of that.....BB for short. The foundation of my family came exclusively from James Turner based birds by way of Jay, Joe Bob, James and a few others. They each added their own twist to my family. Your point being that many families are a mixture several different strains or families bred for performance. In some cases several different breeders all with a little different flavor but the same base family can and often do, create combinations that also breed good performance rollers? YES, Correct. I believe that many of those listed do fly birds either from Turner or men who got birds from Turner and yes they bred from other families too to create their strain of birds. Were the Turner birds the base? Absolutely. Are there lines with other families? Well it depends who you are talking about. But sure, like most roller men, they are blending the best of a couple families in their search for the perfect roller. Many good families today are a mixture of two or more old families. And how many different breeders from how many different strains went into the make up of your birds? All birds can from somebody when we get a start. And they started from somebody and they started from somebody, etc. Most men give credit to whomever helped them the most; where the strength of the spin comes from. I credit James Turner and Jay Yandle for y family. Each man makes that decision based on how his family develops. We are all riding someone's coattails to one extent or another. I bet you owe at least some of your success to other flyers, men that you got birds from to start the Campbell strain? Just my take on your question. I hope that helps.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1378 posts
Jul 26, 2008
9:46 PM
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Nick said,
"....becuase if you follow the standard...a color bird that does not roll from another breed will never enter the stock loft. "
Absolutely, Nick! I, too, sincerely believe in, breed and fly my family of rollers based on this statement.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1379 posts
Jul 26, 2008
10:04 PM
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Paul,
Fighting fires in the heat must be a bear. I can't even imagine what you guys must go through. Fine post and I have only one comment. After talking to James for that interview, I am as sure as I can be, he did not bring in another breed into the birds that many now fly. Yes, he tried a breed cross and yes it did not work and yes they were all culled. After that he only brought in Rollers with the color gene he wanted to work with. Yes, he gave the fancy color options. But the birds had to perform first and foremost. He did not care to produce only colored rollers that did not perform to standard based on Pensom's definition. His intent, at that time, was to produce performance rollers that could earn the title of a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.... AND HE DID JUST THAT. If these birds were as bad as some say, I wouldn't be feeding them. I'd still be breeding and flying those damn stiff pedigree Pensom's and trying to starve them down so they would roll......just like so many flyers out there have been doing for decades and never win a fly! LOL! But this family DOES perform to standard, they do what Rollers do, and they do it well. You don't get tough judges lke Ken Easley judging this region's color birds and saying that they earned some of the highest scores that he has ever given if they weren't the real deal' We wouldn't have international judges like Brian McKenzie who indicated that the only birds they have ever imported were the Mason's.....and after judging this region, said that these are among the top two or three kits that he would consider importing into South Africa.These birds cross well with other Pensom-based families, naturally, since that is their base. Are they the perfect for everybody? I doubt there even is such a family perfect for everybody. Are they PURE BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS? They are pure rollers with a little something extra, that can perform to standard. They can be genetically defined as 15/16 pure. But you and I know that all Birmingham Rollers got several different types of tumblers, tipplers, and other breeds in their backgrounds. To some, they have purity issues. That's fine. And then some men claim to breed pure Birmingham rollers. No problem from me. But if you want a strong performance roller that can perform to standard, can produce an occasional rare color or two, Try the color birds. I don't sell birds. I am saying there are color options available to the Roller Fancy. If you don't like colors don't get birds with color birds in their backgrounds...... Simple as that. If you just care about performance, colors are not a problem. Choices are there for those who want them. And as for the color genes mysteriously vanishing if you follow the roll.....that's about as logical as saying if you follow the roll in your family...or any other family, that recessive red, or grizzle will dissappear! LOL! Not very likely....Performance is just not about the color of the feathers........Glad to see you back, Paul.
Cliff
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Scott
1001 posts
Jul 26, 2008
10:34 PM
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Cliff, good answer where the families are concerned, even my own where families havn't been crossed are taking on their own charactoristcs from Kennys.
I've seen others take that family and not breed anything that represents Kennys family in the air due to not having the right ones to begin with or ruin them down the line due to selection,mainly from pedigree breeding them and not breeding out of flown out birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 26, 2008 10:43 PM
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Santandercol
2806 posts
Jul 26, 2008
10:44 PM
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Oye,muchos popos aqui.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Scott
1002 posts
Jul 26, 2008
10:54 PM
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(I wouldn't be feeding them. I'd still be breeding and flying those damn stiff pedigree Pensom's and trying to starve them down so they would roll......just like so many flyers out there have been doing for decades and never win a fly! LOL! )
Cliff , what family of so called Pensom was that ? that is one broad statement as nearly every family in this country derived from the birds he imported in.
As for starving down stiffs to roll, who has done that ? stiffs are stiffs regardless how you feed them has been my experiance.
I have heard that parroted a 1000 times,not sure what that has to due with this topic unless you are trying to justify instability.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1003 posts
Jul 26, 2008
11:01 PM
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(They are pure rollers with a little something extra, that can perform to standard. They can be genetically defined as 15/16 pure.)
Cliff , that is a big bucket that you are trying to fill, not all of the birds and families back there carry the mutt gene,nor are the couple of guys that have done well flying only such pigeons.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2008 9:12 AM
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Dave Szab
180 posts
Jul 27, 2008
9:07 AM
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Hey Cliff,
After all the work that I did
on your picture, you don't even comment on it?
I am disappointed. LOL. I couldn't help myself bud, it was too perfect!
Dave
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Scott
1006 posts
Jul 27, 2008
9:08 AM
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(We wouldn't have international judges like Brian McKenzie who indicated that the only birds they have ever imported were the Mason's.....and after judging this region, said that these are among the top two or three kits that he would consider importing into South Africa.)
Cliff my momory is kind of hazy but wasn't Aris Puna and Dave Vang the only US flyers that placed in the top 10(4th&5th) that year and with quality multipliers as high or higher than you and the other flyer ? and doesn't one of the flyers that you are refering to fly something other than your magical pigeons also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2008 9:09 AM
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Scott
1007 posts
Jul 27, 2008
9:10 AM
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Dave, I liked it LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1380 posts
Jul 27, 2008
10:29 AM
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"Hey Cliff,
After all the work that I did
on your picture, you don't even comment on it?"
Dave,
Actually i like the one in my purple tutu better! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2008 10:29 AM
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Ballrollers
1381 posts
Jul 27, 2008
10:32 AM
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Scott said, "Cliff my momory is kind of hazy but wasn't Aris Puna and Dave Vang the only US flyers that placed in the top 10(4th&5th) that year and with quality multipliers as high or higher than you and the other flyer ? "
Scott,
Yes, David Vang was one of the other kits, and the other was Oullete's....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1382 posts
Jul 27, 2008
10:44 AM
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Scott,
I think it is rude and disrespectful to publicly talk down about another mans family of birds and disrespect him and his birds. Who knows? It very well could have been my handling or my breeder selection or just the birds inter relationships that I started with. All I know is that I spent big money and they didn't work for me.....kinda like your Neibles. So I moved on to another family of birds that I saw perform in the air, first. But yes, Stiffs are stiffs and nothing will cure that problem. You can also get a family of birds that are too stable. Like many things in the hobby, I strive for a happy medium between too stable and too hot. The heat, roll, what ever you want to call it, must be there but without stability, you got nothing. Everything has go to be there in just the right proportions. Too much of even a good thing and you will have problems somewhere in the future.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1383 posts
Jul 27, 2008
10:56 AM
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Scott,
When I talk about this family of birds,I am usually talking about the Turner family of rollers...also known as South Carolina rollers. In this instance, I am talking only about my birds. I am well aware that not all families of birds in my area carry rare factors. Guys are flying Jacs, Hardestys, Henderson's Continentals, and one guy even flys Pensoms. But mostof the men's familles do carry Turner blood; some as a side line and some as the base of their family. Having a few mutt genes just adds to the pleasure of this hobby. Variety is the spice of life. With all the genetic diversity already carried in these rollers, one or two more genes don't bother me at all...... As long as they perform to standard. That's all I ask!
Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2735 posts
Jul 27, 2008
12:04 PM
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Hey All, this thread is why I believe the Color Position Paper is needed. Think of all the confusion that is going forth now.
:-(
We are just going to do it and let the chips fall where they may.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Scott
1008 posts
Jul 27, 2008
12:30 PM
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(You can also get a family of birds that are too stable.)
Cliff, I have found this statement not to hold true, my experiance has taught me that a heavy dose of the roll gene is where it is,and placed on a mentaly strong pigeon you have a bird that is stable and full of roll,place it on a mentaly weak pigeon and what do have ?
I honestly have more roll and more stability than I once had.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 27, 2008 1:58 PM
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Windjammer Loft
357 posts
Jul 27, 2008
4:26 PM
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Guess I'll just stay out ot this one. Anyway it seems to be a 3 man disscussion. No one REALLY has the real info on those birds from the past. It's just one mans word against another mans word.....We should spend more time on whats going on now with the birds, instead of what happened over 50yrs ago.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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sundance
677 posts
Jul 27, 2008
5:56 PM
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Guys, I try to read everything I can on here and have learned a lot , most of the time. Some things I tend to learn the hard way, and if something dont make clear sense to me I try it myself and sometimes fall on my face. Then I know, one way or the other.
Anyways, This whole color thing,... Ya know , I really guess I just dont have a dog in this fight. And I`m growing tired of this this fight.
Cliff, From what I`ve seen posted, it sounds like you got some good birds and I`d love to see them. If they spin the way I`m sure they do, thats all that matters to me. I dont care how they look.
Scott, same goes for your birds. I know some of your history and have seen some of you family at KIm Tappendens house.They are good spinners for sure. But still , I dont care how they look. Its all about what they do in the air. Period.
Call `em pure Birmingham Rollers, Or American Rollers or feathered spinning purebread rolling pigeon thingies for all I care. I just like to see a good pigeon spinning in the air.
Tony, I was dissapointed when I found the password lock on the article cause I thought it was something new to read .
Now, after reading all the posts on this thread , combined with all the offshoots of it, I`m glad you put the password on it. I dont think I want to even know whats gonna be on that paper. Actually, I can probably imagine whats already on it. It really cant be anything new that has`nt been hashed over a hundred times already.
I cant leave you out Nick. Just curious, Do you sit back and snicker after posting some of these threads just to get things hopping in here. Ah Nick, I bet you got that mischievious gleam in yer eye dont ya? I like that in people. Good charachter...sometime you get beat up on in here, but you always come back swinging. Hope to meet you some day.
Later....
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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