Are we ready for our hobby to be viewed by the world? Competitors..!! Are you tired of getting out of bed early, spending long hours on the road, flying at inconvenient times, and burning hundreds of dollars worth of gas? Wouldn’t it be better to let your rollers out when the weather was just right? What if the big contests were be judged by the same judges? How about instant replay or at least a second look at the break? Some flyers are many miles apart. They feel that they can’t participate. Wouldn’t it be nice if all competitors had a chance to see everyone’s birds fly? All these factors could be changed by the World Wide Web..! By taking a video record of each competitors birds and submitting it to a central site where the judging takes place, more people would be able to participate. Anyone’s birds could compete without the contestant ever leaving their own location. A procedure could be put in place which would give the competitor only one or two chances to record their 20 minute fly. The running time and date could be included on the video screen, the competitor could call time and competition would begin. Each competitor could be given a window of time within which they must record. Each local club could invest in their own camera. Video cameras can be shared among the competitors, and they can be taken or shipped to the most remote locations. Individuals could also have their own. The recordings could then be sent online, to a central site where they can be posted and viewed by anyone. They would be judged by the same judge or judges, and could be done so very accurately. Everyone could have access to the recordings and could then see for themselves why they received the score they did. It would be an educational opportunity for newer flyers, and could help to grow the hobby worldwide. Our hobby’s most interesting feature, the performance of our birds would then be available to the world at WWW.RollerComp.com. Features of the site could include: 1. Biggest breaks A, Biggest ever recorded B. Biggest of the year C. Biggest of the World Cup 2. Fastest Kits 3. Deepest Kits 4. Best Style Rollers (edited) 5. Best individual Champion True Birmijngham Roller 6. Deepest individual 7. Fastest Individual 8. Of course other features such as a Forum, Chat, Photo Gallery, Advice, etc, should be available. The site can also be used as a means of communicating and coordinating events, both world wide and local. How about an open competition…?? The “Best 20 Minutes” of the season with no restrictions as to beginning time…just 20 minutes straight..? A competitor could enter as many times as they want, as long as they pay an entry fee each time. Best 10 minutes…. Best 5 minutes… The traditional 2 minutes to call time fly… the possibilities are endless. August 3, 2008 Paul M. Gomez
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 6:08 PM
I looked up cameras that could be suitable... These types of cameras are currently in the $1,500 to 4,000 price range. Sony GL2 Camcorder Sony Video Camera
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 4:22 PM
I wouldn't bother,nothing can compare to standing under a real kit,it is like being on the beach watching pretty girls,seeing it on the tube can't compare. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
I like the idea! Theres not but a handful of flyers in this whole state, and with my work schedule, I just don't get too many opertunities to stand under them. I could sure make use of the videos! Lot better than what I have to look at now!
With what I paid in lawyer fees this year, I could own a couple of cameras! >:(
---------- Val
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 9:22 PM
I wouldn't bother,nothing can compare to standing under a real kit,it is like being on the beach watching pretty girls,seeing it on the tube can't compare
Well, think about it Scott before you just down the idea... 1. How many people will be able to see a guys birds fly? IN PERSON ..a few dozen...?? What's the most guys you've ever seen at a fly? What's the average? ONLINE... Thousands... Tens of thousands.. Unlimited.!! 2. A telephoto lens well used (a tripod or shoulder mount) can produce a good, steady view... Why is it that at professional sporting events they have the Jumbotron.. big screen..? When people also can watch the real thing, you'll see lots of them watching the screen... 3. I like looking at the pretty girls in person as much (or more) than the average guy.. But I like seeing pictures of the real beautiful ones...posing and performing too..!! 4. You can watch it any time of the day or nite, and as many times as you want. 5. It could straighten out unfair judging if it were to be taking place. 6. Competitors could still go see them in person. Gomez
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 10:54 AM
Yeah Val.... That's exactly what I'm talking about. It can bring more serious flyers into competition. It could also bring a lot more different types of competition into the mix. Plus some guys might not get on their ol',lady's bad side for being gone so much. Paul G
Ezeedad I think that is a great idea. I dont even have a World Cup region. To my knowledge if I get to fly next year I will be the only one in Florida that does. I will never get to travel like I used to so I will not see many if any kits. I think it would also give a tremendous shot in the arm to the hobby. That way I could join some clubs and get to fly in the flys.
Thanks Sippi... I was thinking that this would be great for the Flying Orientals too,especially since they are so far apart. The same site could have a Birmingham Roller section, Flying Oriental Roller section... Galati Rollers... whatever.. I know that I'd be very interested in seeing good video of other breeds.... maybe even Donecks...Why not Parlor rollers too..??
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 7:23 PM
1. The minimum camera features would have to be HD and able to record in 24p at 1080i or better. Even with the film standards of 24p for a more smooth, film-like look, the filming rate of video cameras doesn't do any roller justice, particularly fast rollers.
2. You will only see what the lens shows you, not outbirds, bumpers, interference, etc. If you don't know what I am talking about. Take a cardboard paper towel holder, cut it in half, and watch your kit the next time you fly them through this tube the entire time.
3. Camera user must be capable of capturing the entire fly without stopping, moving off the birds or anything. If you think that is easy. Try it for 20+ minutes straight.
4. What happens when the battery runs out. It happens every other time you go to use your video camera.
5. The individual must be savy in how to download HD footage and have software capable of processing the data for proper output.
6. Proper output would be the largest native video file size possible. The minimum would be 720 AVI. Even that it small.
7. 20+ minutes of 720 AVI video footage would be about 100 megs of data per minute. That equals approximately a 2-plus gig video file size. Depending on the internet connection, this would take anywhere from 4-12 hours to upload. A DVD mailed would be the only option for most.
8. In order for the WWW to view the images, you have three options. (1) Upload the videos to a third party video hosting site where you use their player embedded on your site to play the videos. Downfall is the quality of the videos will suffer greatly as each video is compressed into flash. (2) Use your own flash conversion software and video player. This still will result in a very large download for viewers as naturally you would choose the largest quality setting for the compression. (3) Host the videos as an AVI file (monsterously huge) and require any viewer to download Adobe QuickTime in order to view it.
9. 95 percent of the folks are not capable of capturing quality video of an entire kit (all birds in the window all of the time), are not capable of holding a camera up like that for 20+ minutes (again, try it), and even fewer are capable of processing the data, let alone have the software to utilize all the data of a quality video camera records, let alone process it for the correct output.
10. I won't even go into the codec fiascos....lol
11. And because of all of just these few issues, there will always be, "well so-in-so got a professional to film his kit and that is why his looks better on video than mine". That is more true than you realize.
BA ROLLERS, Thanks a lot for the technical issues that would have to be overcome. I find that some of the things you mentioned could clearly be overcome. Or maybe this type of competition would not be suited for 20 minute flys. But there are other kinds of competition that should work. Individual performances, maybe the best 5 minutes of kit performance... etc.. Would you say that it is totally impossible right now..?? If not, what lengths of time would be the best to work with? I will have to take some time trying to "digest" your information... Thanks again.. Paul Gomez
Really George...!!! LOL...!! ..WHAT..!!?? They'd just jerk to the same formation out of nowhere...??? A guy would have to be pretty stupid to think that he could show the same break over and over.....!! LOL...!! I hope you're not serious... Paul G
I have never ever seen video of a kit of birds worth watching,it will be a very hard sell for serious flyers, I cannot see ever getting excited over such a fly myself. Myself I enjoy the hell out of hitting loft after loft watching kit after kit,fondling birds,raiding gardens ect. Scott ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 8:09 PM
George, You could use only 1 camers, and the kit would have to be shown start to finish with no cuts. I'm not saying that people can't cheat, but not that way... Nothing's stopping you from competing the way you always have. This could give more ways of competing and gives more people a chance to compete. Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2008 8:41 PM
Scott I'm not saying that it should take the place of the current type of competition. It could be an additional type of competition... You can still fondle and smell the birds and pluck from the peach trees... Maybe it could just start by showcasing the best individual bird or kit on tape...and go from there.. They already have Youtube and other sites that show videos that people shoot. Why shouldn't we have one for rollers too? I bet there would be some good videos being shown if it got to be a format of competition. Paul G
Okay.... 6 like the idea.... George, you said you like the idea, then you changed because of what Scott said.?? BA ROLLERS... It seems like that if YouTube does it, why can't it be done with rollers... Anyways....6 for the idea... 3 saying that it won't worki.... Does my vote count..?
Man you guys are way too rich for my blood. I dont have 1500 to drop on a camera. I would like for my girls togo to college. Nice in theory and for showing off to your buddies but thats about the extent of it. ---------- V99 Straight up,no chaser.
Paul, I like the way you think, and I think the possibilities are endless. Yes I like watching and participating in everything live... but I also enjoy a lot of sports and events on TV and I think this idea has merit... at the very least. I also know what scott means in that I have never watched a video yet that is worth a crap... but I think it can be done.. and probably will be soon. I also understand that Cliff is much smarter than me and it is appearant that there are some huge challenges to overcome... but the way this world is developing from a technology perspective... and the speed its is doing it just continues to blow me away. What most of us need to do is ask our kids how me can do this... and they can help us see what we need to do to step out there... and catch up with the times... Thanks for being a thinker/dreamer/believer... I like "can-do attitudes" and like surrounding myself with people who have them... ---------- Joe Dan Parson Full Turn Lofts North Texas
Would undoubtly be nice for your kits to be recorded for public viewing or posterity,I think thats as productive as this could be,nothing beats the thrill of witnessing it with your own eyes,no matter what sport/we are on about,cameras decide the winners in speed events only,my thoughts are that rollers are a participation sport,and I want to be there as often as my time allows,after saying that I would like to see flys of others birds and lots of other interesting aspect of this sport/hobby on camera for publicity reasons,for the sport/hobby in general,but to have decisions made by camera,would bring only more grief,proof being,look at diversity of opinions on this forum as regards amost topics,on occassions.
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2008 12:36 AM
Paul I like this Idea but what George mention cross my mind too when i first read your post.some can edit the tape and you wouldn't even know it.not by taping the same break over and over but different breaks from other previous recordings.. I understand what Scott feels about being under the kit and all the excitement and going from place to place is the real thing.see I and some don't have these privileges thats why I thought it was a good Idea.. close to the real thing.. it can be done anything is possible. ----------
EZ, YouTube doesn't "do it". YouTube is one of countless video hosting platforms that provides a free service of broadcasting video information and entertainment. YouTube is the worst offender of butchering image quality due to their extreme compression algorithms to flash. The results are always very, very poor quality playback. In a sport where quality rules, and must be dissected, you cannot do that with the crappy flash compression. And this becomes even more apparent when you have to concentrate on this little bird(s) to see if they look like they are doing it right. Roller performance is immediately handicapped and compromised the moment it is captured on video. The quality of that performance will not be viewed the same because of the frame capture rate. And to complicate matters more, video has a tendency to make good rollers look average, thus completely diluting the intention. The only time that video looks the best is when it is displayed in its native size and format. And this is assuming it is captured properly. I wish it were different with video and roller performance. But the inherent design of capturing real time motion currently has only one technology. And that technology does not lend itself to video capture and reproduction accuracy. Someday in our lifetimes there might come a time when such a web competition event will actually become protocol. So that you can grasp the current hurdles I suggest the following. Get a video camera and video your birds for 20 minutes, none stop. Download the video to your computer and process the data into a video file that is the best quality your software can muster. Then take that video and upload it onto YouTube. When you are notified that the compression process has been complete for your video, view it and decide for yourself if you see what you saw in person? Or even more, see what you saw in your unmolested video file. Then again, you won't be able to upload it to YouTube or most of the hosting sites because the video file you want to upload will far exceed the maximum requirements both in size and duration.
I'm not trying to unravel your idea or demean the nature of it. I am merely suggesting that you try to do what you would like to see done and discover for yourself the numerous problems with capturing rollers on video and trying to present it to the world via the Internet.
PS--I can sew three different video clips together seamlessly together in a way that you will not be able to tell where the modification was made. This doesn't suggest that people will cheat by manipulating their footage. But if I wanted to, I could make footage captured from three different cameras appear as one smooth flowing stream.
Again, not knocking your idea. Just presenting the hurdles and inherent flaws in the technology vs. roller pigeon.
Can you imagine if the Olympic committee proposed that instead of getting together for the enxt Olympics, we just had each country send in the vieotapes of their best gymnastics performers and we'll judge the videtopes? no more polluted Beijing air to deal with and we couldhave lots more participants?
Comeon - this cannot be serious.
The only way to judge a kit of pigeons is by standing under them.
I do think HD video of the athletes in question to be made available to those that are not able to be there in person would be a better proposal.
Perhaps the WC competitors would agree to pay an extra $5 each to have a HD DVD made of the top 20 kits. This would be made available to all contestants for no additional fee and sold for a little profit to non-competitors to help fund the endeavor.
Of course we would have to buy or rent the camera and have a camera man travel along with the judge. But if there are 500 competitors at $10 a piece - that is $5,000. Sell another 500 tapes at a profit of $10 a piece, there is another $5,000.
Ok perhaps the judge we need to leran to operate the camera and get a local bystander to do the filming to avoid the cost of sending 2 guys all over.
Paul - Henry Fords engineers told him over and over that _____ is impossible to do. They even laughed at the Wright brothers for what they were trying to accomplish. Anytime someone says this is the only way it means kept brainstorming and you will find another route. The originators of the breed judged only individual birds against each other but now we have the world cup. There are other ways!
I saw this on youtube, Maybe most of you have seen it already... But this shows me that there may be more possibilities in roller videos than we think.
Bluett... If you're clever enough to show how to cheat by splicing video clips together, then you must be clever enough to shoot a decent roller video.. Frankly I don't see how it could be seamlessly done... BA ROLLERS says it can be done too... On one camera... I don't believe it. Paul G
"Hey George I work with the Sony HD FX1 Camera I have 2 OF THEM AND I HAVE A CAMERA TEAM AS WEL . YOU CAN EMAIL ME, AGIN Great idea! GEORGE" ---------- Dominique Bluett's Birmingham Roller Loft NBRC.
Joe Dan, Thanks for the positive feedback. I think that it can be done, and soon too..!! In fact I want to see it done and I am willing to take part in getting it started. Paul
Heres one thats not so high tech but works well. I hooked my webcam up to my laptop and took it out to the loft and showed Sid my breeders on Yahoo! messenger. You can invite 4-5 people. Use netmeeting or a number of options for real time viewing. Now I know a regular webcam wouldnt be sufficient for judging a kit but... I`m thinking outside of the box again. ---------- V99 Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2008 12:56 PM
I shoot video professionally, too, and I've also shot rollers. We are currently restricted by the limitations of the medium. The US's 29.97 frames per second, and the UK's 25, via mainstream recording equipment, is the limiting factor - and, as has been pointed out, that's before it's compressed into an internet format.
There are a myriad of problems in shooting rollers uninterrupted, one of them being that as the kit circles, the light can change dramatically, as seen through a camera lens; on a sunny day, the birds can quickly change from being beautifully lit to blackened silhouettes, as the camera turns 180 degrees, in the normal course of following a kit. There are so many other problems, I don't know where to start the list.
Like many others have been saying for quite some time, I've yet to see any decent footage of a kit of rollers. Most is shot too far away, so the birds are just blackened dots in the sky. If you zoom in, it's almost impossible to follow the roll, and if you do, it won't be the whole kit.
I will loudly applaud the first guy who can show me on video a kit of rollers which is anything like as good as being there in person.
Shaun, you're right. Nothing beats watching them in person, period. The best YouTube videos I've seen so far have been the ones that BMC shot. I especially like the one he shot on Memorial Day of this year and I think you'll agree that the quality is better than most. Check it out if you haven't already seen it.
Shaun, BA Rollers, Bluett, I saw the Youtube video that Birdman talked about. I see his video as a starting place. Obviously it can be upgraded in different ways. If any of you three can do better, I for one would be very interested in seeing it. The BMC Memorial Day video is sort of setting a standard... Does anyone know B McCormick? I'd like to know what kind of equipment he was using. ANY GOOD ROLLER PERFORMANCE VIDEO will add to what the hobby has to present itself to outsiders and to use as a learning tool as well as a means of new kinds of competition. I am sarting to agree that the 20 minute format is beyond us at this time. Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2008 4:31 PM
Paul as BA state " the video file you want to upload will far exceed the maximum requirements both in size and duration. ----------So maybe you can start at 5 minutes working to ten,but what happens when the kit is under the sun that sun glare will distort your shot. and if you are focusing on a kit lets say 5 rolling they was an out bird but you can't tell because of the angle it doesn't pick up wide enough .I don't know just throwing some problems that can occur being realistic so we can work around these obstacles.
P.S. Kopesta I'm in PR not NY.. Ralph
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2008 8:57 PM
LaRon, You make a good comparison. From the first Model Ts things have changed quite a bit. The first flight went a couple hundred yards or so, now we are sending space probes to the outer limits of our solar system. Paul G
Paul, that video clip is what most people don't do. It homes in on small sections of a kit, thus giving people the chance to see what's really going on. However, as you can see, it's difficult to follow a bird when you're zoomed in that close, and in this video, birds often disappear out of frame. This is why most videographers take a wider, and usually less impressive view. However, the wider you zoom out, the more the available light starts to dicate matters. As the sky is bright (especially on an overcast day, when it is white), the camera's auto exposure is overly influenced by it, thus birds are often rendered as silhouettes. When the sky is blue, that means the sun is usually out and when the camera pans around to follow the kit, from one extreme to the other (sun behind, then sun in front), the exposure is all over the place.
Nevertheless, Paul, what you're suggesting is, of course, do-able, and I've noted on this forum that some have been delighted by video clips which have been shown, so they might well be very interested in more of the same. However, what a small minority of us are saying is that we're yet to be impressed by roller videos, for the myriad reasons put forward. This may suggest we're overly fussy, whilst you may have a healthy proportion of followers who aren't. In which case do what you have in mind, and you will always find people who can offer advice to improve things, within the limitations of the medium.
But, camera aside (and they don't have to be anything special to conform to the current limits of prosumer technology), I would advise you not to underestimate the required skill of the cameraman when videoing rollers.
Hej Lads & Lasses, In 2002 & 2006 Ferid Catak of Denmark had someone come and film his w.Cup kits, these DVDs can be purchased from the W.Cup site. I will repeat a little of what I wrote in the Jan-Feb 2007 NBRC Bulletin. I have seen plenty footage of Rollers in the air and talked to people who have filmed their birds in the air and everyone says the same, that filming does not do the birds justice, I have yet to hear anyone say different. A few years ago (2001) Heine and I went to England to see part of the AERC fly. Heine had his VCR with him to record the fanciers, their lofts and a little bit of footage of birds in the air. The only kit he filmed for the whole fly was Morris Holes kit of yearlings, which was an active kit with some great birds and some good breaks. This kit came second that year in the yearling fly but when Heine sent me the tape and I saw the fly again, it just was not the same kit, which leaves no doubt in my mind that there is only one place to judge a kit of birds and that is by standing underneath them and not in the house watching them on film. The 2 DVDs of Ferids birds are not too bad, you can see the birds, breaks and the roll, the 2002 one is filmed with 2 cameras from different angles, the 2006 kit was filmed with 1 camera, it is not easy to hold and film a kit in the air for 30 mins or more, the bloke that did the filming was an elderly gentleman and had problems holding the camera but nevertheless there is still some good footage, which from an educational point of view have a value. Eric Laidler, Denmark.
Hej Lads & Lasses, I forgot to add that the DVDs are 100% better than anything I have seen on this forum, u tube or any other site. Hilsen, Eric, Denmark.
I would love to see that one of these days i wouldnt get off the computer at all i would just see video after video after video..
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 9:19 AM
The best thing about using messenger is it is LIVE!! Seems to me it would cut way down on the opportunity to cheat. It would also motivate the flyer to get the best footage he can. Another thought, some personal websites allow uploads. If the bandwidth and load limit is within specs, why use youtube? The websites that play pirated movies use the technology we need for posting quality video to the web. ---------- V99 Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 9:54 AM
Ducket, So if the DVD is the best format to use for judging a kit, perhaps they can be sent in to a judging committee to be scored. Then the recordings could be edited down to the scoring performances only, which would make them more usable. The person who sent the DVD in would have their own copy so they would know that it was done right. Then the edited versions could be a lot more suitable for showing online. I don't know the technical stuff... Just trying to connect the dots... Also the problem with holding the camera might be helped a lot by using a tripod. The image would be a lot more steady too. Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 10:51 AM
Hej Lads & Lasses, A tripod would steady the image but you would then lose freedom of movement, it might not be as easy to follow the kit. You also need 2 cameras, one to zoom in to capture the breaks and quality, the other to capture the depth of roll, you can`t capture it all on just one camera. Eric, Denmark.
