ezeedad
731 posts
Aug 16, 2008
11:15 AM
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The more that I have looked at the results of the flies, the more I have become convinced that the multipliers do very little to change the outcome of the competitions.
The only real multiplier than affects the score is for simulteneoue performance.
10 -14 birds get a multiplier of x2
15-19 birds get a multiplier of x3
20 birds get a multiplier of x5
Using this years world cup as an example:
..............5-9....10-14....15-19..Raw Score..#birds
#1 Hayes.......23.....18........5........836......455
#2 Rossouw....10......5........8........582......252
#3 Kriger........12.....11........4........546......280
#4 Thibodeau..24.....10........3........522......317
Of the top 4 finishers the one with the least number of birds rolling got the second highest raw score. Why..??
Because of the x3 multiplier.
The quality and depth multipliers did nothing to change the order.
You can also see that the competitor with the second highest number of birds rolling came out 4th because he did not get the big multipliers for large breaks.
I didn't have to look far for an example. This was the first thing I looked at.
The system is loaded to favor big breaks over anything else.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 11:23 AM
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Scott
1078 posts
Aug 16, 2008
11:36 AM
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Paul,you are compareing the best 4 in the WORLD out of 70,and that is why you will see one 1.6 down lower on the fly sheet.
If the birds within the break are not doing it correctly you don't get the break, doesn't mean they didn't have large breaks ,they just weren't scoreable due to lack of quality,getting 15 plus birds to roll in unison and with quality is quite a feat and should be rewarded, but there is talk of that reward being too heavy, and I agree, but never the less that is why competition tumbler rules aren't used,we are judging Birmingham Rollers.
Paul, you are again talking about something that you know nothing about, I suggest that you just fly your pigeons and let your birds do the talking for you , the World cup consists of the top flyers of Birmingham Rollers from around the world, compared to them guys like you are ant shit where the birds are concerned , they would dance on your head where quality is concerned also, your excuses for not flying are meaningless.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 11:54 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2748 posts
Aug 16, 2008
11:55 AM
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Hey Scott, yes, it appears Paul IS looking at the top 4 of 70, would you rather he look at the bottom four? LOL
I have not myself studied the final scores, but Paul's post makes me want to go and review them for scoring type trends that might give pause to the breeder and have an impact on the way birds are trained and bred.
If larger breaks are what scores and wins over small and frequent, then it should matter what people have in their loft wouldn't it?
Would not this mean then that quality and depth are less a factor than what we normally tell ourselves and each other? Rick Mee's "Concert Performance" article starts to carry more weight if this bears true.
Good post Paul, one that makes a person think!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 11:57 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2749 posts
Aug 16, 2008
12:04 PM
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Hey Scott, why so hostile toward Paul? His observation is legitimate. His conclusion is his own and is entitled to it.
You seem shrill. LOL I have done that too - more than once. LOL Lighten up dude. :-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Hector Coya
221 posts
Aug 16, 2008
12:30 PM
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Hey Tony, Scott cant help it,,,
Hector Coya-SGVS
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Alohazona
439 posts
Aug 16, 2008
12:44 PM
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Paul,I'm starting to see your point more clearly.Good post!....Aloha,Todd
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Scott
1079 posts
Aug 16, 2008
12:49 PM
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(If the birds within the break are not doing it correctly you don't get the break, doesn't mean they didn't have large breaks ,they just weren't scoreable due to lack of quality,getting 15 plus birds to roll in unison and with quality is quite a feat and should be rewarded, but there is talk of that reward being too heavy, and I agree, but never the less that is why competition tumbler rules aren't used,we are judging Birmingham Rollers.0
Tony, this above is why, many of the other didn't get awarded large breaks not because they weren't scoreable QUALITY wise.
As for Paul , guys that are all talk and no show just plain rub me wrong LOL .
Scot
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 6:27 PM
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George R.
961 posts
Aug 16, 2008
12:52 PM
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I think that Paul Fullerton explained on a past post the a good kit with good multipliers will always beat a frequent kit with average multipliers.
Paul if you can please post up your explanation that you posted some time ago.
I dont think there is any reason why not to fly in any Competetion( Fall Fly, World Cup, 20 bird ,11 Bird ETC. regardless of the rules other then a persons stock is not able to compete at a World Class level.
everyone Flys under the same rules so it dont matter what rules are being used.
and those that say that people are pairing up there Birds to create 10 foot and frequent Birds are being taken for a Long ride.
I have talked to many Fanciers and never has one told me they breed for short frequent Rollers.
Everyone I talked to said they breed for 30 footers
Instead of looking for reasons why not to Fly a person should be looking for ways to Fly better birds.
I consider myself one of the worst trainers in the Hobby , yet I enter all flys that come my way. Thats the only way for me to improve my skills as a trainer and improve my Stock.
The novice
george
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Scott
1081 posts
Aug 16, 2008
1:40 PM
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(I dont think there is any reason why not to fly in any Competetion( Fall Fly, World Cup, 20 bird ,11 Bird ETC. regardless of the rules other then a persons stock is not able to compete at a World Class level.)
And then to talk shit about it to boot , who would even think of doing such a thing without having the cajonas to back it up ?
PS Hector is right I just can't help myself LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 1:41 PM
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sundance
740 posts
Aug 16, 2008
3:45 PM
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( have talked to many Fanciers and never has one told me they breed for short frequent Rollers.
Everyone I talked to said they breed for 30 footers )
Thaats a good point George. I also breed for the 30 foot range, but often am faced with plenty of shorter, 10 to 15 foot birds.
I think part of the reason so many fly the shallow birds is at the time thats all they have. Losses to the various natural forces helps that keep going. So spring comes along and a lot of us are basically starting over trying to get enough young birds just to have something to fly.
My birds get deeper with age. This year I finally have enough to fly the 11 bird with 05, 06, and a couple 07 birds. I have 1, 08 bird in there, But its a good one 30 footer and occasionally a little dangerous. But its never hit or bumped...LOL so far....
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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George R.
962 posts
Aug 16, 2008
3:54 PM
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Butch
I also breed for that range (30ft) but I also get my share of 10 footers and 20 footers and also 5 footers and some that spin beyond 30 ft.
I think we all get our share of different Depth , even thou we want and breed for 30 footers.
Unless a person is breeding for strange Colors or strange oddity's or mutations. Then anything is bound to pop up.
good observation Butch.
the novice
George
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 4:04 PM
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ezeedad
732 posts
Aug 16, 2008
8:34 PM
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Scott,
Why do you have to change the subject and turn it into a personal attack? Really you are talking out of your ass because you don't know S*^t about my birds or what I have been doing.
I am trying to improve a F'd up scoring system... that is all.!! You and your cheerleader George have tried to twist my words and intent since I started to post.
Strange tho... You actually motivate me..!! In a sort of twisted way...
Paul G
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ezeedad
733 posts
Aug 16, 2008
8:47 PM
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Tony,
Where can I find Rick Mee's article. I think of him as one of the very best... In fact, it is almost too easy for him... Another one of those kind of guys is Dennis Godair.
I read someone's response saying that it doesn't matter what kind of system is used..!! That is utterly rediculous.
The system is what is used to measure the birds performance, and the system is doing next to nothing to reward quality... Just big breaks...
To make things even the multiplier for quality should be at least the same as for simultaneous rolling... 5 POINTS.
Paul G
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ezeedad
734 posts
Aug 16, 2008
8:50 PM
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Sundance,
George has got you twisted... I have never said that.
He is making up a story to take your attention away from the real issue.
P G
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Scott
1082 posts
Aug 16, 2008
9:02 PM
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(Strange tho... You actually motivate me..!! In a sort of twisted way...)
Thats the way it works Paul, if it didn't you wouldn't be talking about flying.
As for the scoreing , it is only as good as the judging, and it evolves around the team, good teams are teams of good to great individules,good to great teams react to each other,good teams aint easy.
The only thing to fix is judges that score what doesn't represent the breed and to educate flyers what a good bird is, poor quality birds that don't represent the breed should never ever be scored.
Paul, as you have noticed you "do" get under my skin on this stuff as you attack us, and yet you have nothing to put up except talking shit,show me some birds that have the goods and I will take your opinions serious,and I will show you the same.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1453 posts
Aug 16, 2008
10:34 PM
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George you are right about me writing that a kit with less breaks and multipliers would beat a popcorn kit....It was myself and Brian McCormick trying to prove to "somebody" that the multipliers are what make the men from the boys.
you take a kit that has 20 breaks--very frequent..not as deep...not setting up and jerking the chain...your typical popcorn kit that most think are good kits..but they are nothing but..well a mess....looks like popcorn popping....anyway..those are the kits that will get your 1.2 depth and 1.2 quality...
Then you have the kit that is Jerking the Chain..I mean...setting up and dumping....with speed, depth and QUALITY>....you have that same team with lest raw points and and maybe a 1.6 quality and 1.5 depth and that is a big difference......
for example Lets say you have a kit that has 200 raw points....very frequent...okay..then you get a 1.2Q and 1.2D......now 1.2X1.2= 1.44 now take your 200 X 1.44= You have a total of 288pts....really good fly...
Now you Take a Scott Campbell team working hard..SETTING UP...Pulling the pin with EXCELLENT DEPTH and QUALITY...ok you get a 1.6 D and a 1.5 Q...Scott has received those mulitipliers before...as have I...so that is 1.5 X1.6=2.4
Now lest say this team is not as active..but deeper and better quality..now this team has 121 raw points...so 121 X 2.4 = 290.4......look at the raw point and then add the multipliers...HUGE difference...with the multipliers...
That is 78 raw points diff....that is close to 9 more 8 bird breaks or 15 5 bird breaks...that is a big diff..in activity...
I have seen both of these before....a real active kit and all the rookies are gerking themselves off over the activity.....then you go to another house and the birds are just smooth as silk...taking the time to set up and dump...seperation between the birds when they break because they are deeper.....then the score comes out and the newbies are scratching there head..thinking the active kit should have won
..because of more breaks....but when they get more MATURE in the roller flying they would notice the other team was smooth and deep....and the reward is multipliers and the win....the newbie or rookie comp person was not looking at the whole package....only the action...
so
Popcorn kit
200 raw points- 1.2Q 1.2D = 288pts
The Winner
121 Raw Points- 1.6 X 1.5= 290.4
The reason I have seen this...is because I have judged this before...exact scores....anyway...oh here is what it would look like with if they were 7 bird breaks....I just took the raws and divided by 7...just as an example
7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7= 28.57breaks
7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7-7= 17.28 breaks
Look at how different the breaks look on the score sheet......for raw points...
anyway...I WILL TAKE multipliers every day of the week...that is why my focus is on Quality/Depth/ and as frequent as I can get as long as they hold the Quality...
So Paul...you are wrong...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 10:38 PM
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George R.
963 posts
Aug 16, 2008
10:38 PM
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"The system is what is used to measure the birds performance, and the system is doing next to nothing to reward quality"
its the judges call as far as what he feels the kit earned in the Quality factor. the same for depth its the judges call, plain and simple.
The scoring system when applied right will always put the best kit in the right place.
The Novice
George
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fhtfire
1454 posts
Aug 16, 2008
10:40 PM
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George...how was that last post..bring back old memories from back in the day..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
964 posts
Aug 16, 2008
10:40 PM
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Thank You Paul Fullerton...
The novice
George
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George R.
965 posts
Aug 16, 2008
10:42 PM
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Yes Paul...
Thanks for doing the math ,
The Novice
George
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tapp
636 posts
Aug 17, 2008
12:51 AM
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Right now i'm working on getiing the quality and depth points higher. A few more notches and I'll be in roller heaven!!! And If I can get some of my kit birds to make three years with out loseing them I'll be close to being there.Trouble is I'm going to have to stock a few! Good post Mr Fullerton!!
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Tapp
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warpspeed
55 posts
Aug 17, 2008
1:00 AM
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enough with all the b.s. put them up and let the birds do the talking
abel
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gotspin7
1719 posts
Aug 17, 2008
4:44 AM
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List, I know if the quality of roll or depth was not there they would not have counted any breaks period, plain and simple.
Paul Fullerton, great explanation....... I think the best thing to do is what Abel said..LOL...
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 5:30 AM
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sundance
745 posts
Aug 17, 2008
4:56 AM
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(Sundance,
George has got you twisted... I have never said that.
He is making up a story to take your attention away from the real issue.)
George posted...(I have talked to many Fanciers and never has one told me they breed for short frequent Rollers.
Everyone I talked to said they breed for 30 footers )
Paul, George aint got me twisted. I simply agreed with his statement and posted my opinion.
But judging from what you posted , I feel safe in assuming that you do breed for short rolling birds. They`re your birds. do what you will. But if you want to fly comps, I think Paul and Scott have explained the reason for the scoring system and the value of deeper ,quality birds to a tee.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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kcfirl
473 posts
Aug 17, 2008
7:08 AM
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I believe Paul's commnets hold contain some relevence.
The multipliers aren;t making a difference because there is too little difference between average bird or barely scoreable bird multipliers and outstanding birds.
there ae 2 kinds of judges: the first type will score anything and not give high multipliers. All the kits will receive between 1.2 and 1.4; the other type won't score 1.0 birds deeming them as "not good enough" and all the kits will have 1.3 - 1.6 multipiers.
When we start seeing multiplier spreads of 1.0 - 1.8 awarded to frequent kits, we will see the multipliers making a difference.
Ken Firl
PS. this was Monty's mantra and he was often criticised for it by the "hard cores".
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kcfirl
474 posts
Aug 17, 2008
7:10 AM
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PSS
this is why we need to have a national single bird championship fly in addition to the kit competitions we currently have.
Yet when I tried to get one going here locally, I got no one wanting to fly it.
I wonder why that is? I thnk it is because the guys with the top notch birds are already flying in the kit comps and that has superseded any other kind of fly.
Regards,
Ken
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Scott
1084 posts
Aug 17, 2008
8:23 AM
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Ken, it is only as good as the judging, honestly I can't think of anything that can be improved other than insuring that inferior birds aren't scored with everything else,if the judging is right it is a very good system.
As for your single bird fly, honestly it just didn't sound fun, plus my very best show their best with their peers,plus I think that such a fly would work better with slightly over cooked youngsters that are more controled by the roll.
On the national level the best seen out of the kits judged would be a great idea.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 8:24 AM
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3757
863 posts
Aug 17, 2008
8:31 AM
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KC - Would it be possible for you to e-mail me your phone number. ldoucet95@yahoo.com
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CSRA
1620 posts
Aug 17, 2008
9:49 AM
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Paul good post for discussion Scott wow u can be a bit of a brut sometimes lol abel i think u directed that towards scott yes or no ?
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ezeedad
736 posts
Aug 17, 2008
11:44 AM
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Paul "The Firefighter" Fullerton,
Thanks for an explanation which was correct in every way that I can think of...!!
But Paul, you did not address my real point.
My point is that the big breaks get multiplied by 2 ...or 3... And in the rare event of a full turn, by 5..!!
I agree that multipliers are needed for quality and depth...ABSOLUTELY..!! and with the existing system they are a help. But with such big scores racked up by teams with big breaks, the multipliers don't hardly make a difference. The multipliers are usually fairly close and don't really change the outcome.
Look at what I posted first. #4 had 317 birds rolling, which is 65 more than #2... but ended with a raw score which was 60 points less.! This was because of getting 8 15 to 18 bird breaks.
Fine...!! If you want to reward the big breaks that much then quality and depth should be rewarded that much too.
According to how I read your post, I want what you want... and apparently I want it even more.
Paul Gomez
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ezeedad
737 posts
Aug 17, 2008
11:53 AM
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Ken Firl,
You grasp my point exactly, I believe. Monty Neible was frustrated with the current system because the small multipliers weren't working well enough.
Paul G
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fhtfire
1455 posts
Aug 17, 2008
11:58 AM
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Paul,
The big breaks are of course a HUGE point maker...but you will rarely have the big breaks with the popcorn kits..because they rarely set up. Having over active birds does not mean you will have big breaks...it means that you will have more water falling and from what I have seen total confusion...a good judge will not judge birds that are all over the place....but of course the big breaks are what you want......but both kits can get the big breaks....but when the score is close...the multipliers are what will throw you over the edge...that is the deciding factor...to be honest you want them all....multipliers, big breaks and activity.
You could say that about any event that is judged with different criteria....take a boxing match...you want an active boxer that is throwing blows...but what good does it do if they do not connect...but then you want a power puncher too....that hits hard...but then you want to jab too...it walks together....which is more important...the power puncher that does not throw as many punches but when he connects it is over....or the fists of fury that just wear you down.....get my point....you want a little bit of everything...not any ONE thing is what you want....it just depends on how you look at the big picture...or from what angle you look at something...
So back to pigeons....you can have BIG breaks...but they are shallow and border line quality....big breaks usually do not happen with over active kits...because they never really 'SEt up" ...but if you look at it from the mulitipliers angle..then that is important...if you look at it by the big breaks that too is important...or activity..or quality and speed...or even kitting..without that..you cant get any of the other......
SO to answer your question..all of the above is important...big breaks are what you want....but with high mulitipliers...because of two fliers are close..one had big breaks..and one had a lot of small breaks and the RAW score is close....then the multipliers are going to make you or break you.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
738 posts
Aug 17, 2008
12:29 PM
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So Paul Fullerton...
What is more important?? Big breaks or quality and depth? Because if theyare of equal importance they should be scored equally.
As for me, quality is more important and that's why I disagree with this system so much.
Paul G
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RO
168 posts
Aug 17, 2008
1:39 PM
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Paul Gomez,
Do you attend any fly's to actually see what is beeing scored,or to even evaluate a kit's quality and depth and to get a better insight on things?
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Ro
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ezeedad
739 posts
Aug 17, 2008
2:48 PM
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Ro,
Of course I have seen hundreds of kits flown and scored... I saw Keith London's kit 2 weeks ago...
I competed for years too... Paul G
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ezeedad
741 posts
Aug 17, 2008
3:19 PM
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Ro,
Actually I like seeing good kits of rollers performing. I think the competition is very good for the hobby. I just think that it needs to be improved. My schedule and raising my kids had been a higher priority to me. I am retired now, so I'm getting more active again... flying my birds, etc.
I have a couple birds entered in the QSDC invitational fly.
Paul G
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elopez
1638 posts
Aug 17, 2008
3:53 PM
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Paul G,
You should have went to see Keith fly in the QSDC fly. Today he flew his #1 team and they scored 1779. I'm sure you would have enjoyed the performance.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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ezeedad
743 posts
Aug 17, 2008
8:36 PM
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Efren,
I would have really enjoyed seeing that..!! I posted a question asking when the next fly was going to be, but nobody responded. I have a guy who wants to take a video of some rollers too..
I'm sorry that I missed that. Sounds like it was a real world class performance.
Paul G
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redchecker16
124 posts
Aug 17, 2008
8:47 PM
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Elopez 1779 that kit was on FIRE!! KL No what hE's doing I missed that Fly DAMM!!! who was the Judge? Congrades K.LONDON I got a Call from ED Randell im in Vegas he say SMOKE747 left SMOKE in the SKY city LOL!!
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 8:48 PM
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redchecker16
126 posts
Aug 17, 2008
9:04 PM
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Paul G Great post for us newbies an Good LUCK in the QSDC Fly. I think everyone has Good pigeons its all in the TRAINING an time you have.an what you want/Like to see in the AIR!!!
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 9:05 PM
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Scott
1086 posts
Aug 17, 2008
9:10 PM
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(Paul good post for discussion Scott wow u can be a bit of a brut sometimes lol abel i think u directed that towards scott yes or no ? )
No I doubt that Abel directed that towards me as my birds are up every fly.I think it was directed to the one that does'nt fly,and yes I can be too rough around the edges.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 9:11 PM
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CSRA
1625 posts
Aug 17, 2008
9:26 PM
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Scott good response lol
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elopez
1640 posts
Aug 17, 2008
9:59 PM
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(Paul good post for discussion Scott wow u can be a bit of a brut sometimes lol abel i think u directed that towards scott yes or no ? )
(No I doubt that Abel directed that towards me as my birds are up every fly.I think it was directed to the one that does'nt fly,and yes I can be too rough around the edges.)
Abel told me that it wasn't directed towards you Scott, as you always put up the birds and they put on a good show...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
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turkey buzzard
62 posts
Aug 18, 2008
5:37 AM
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You would have to be a frigging idiot to want too judge a kit after reading these posts.
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ezeedad
746 posts
Aug 18, 2008
11:25 AM
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Scott,
I see how you always manage to shift the point away from the real issue... and it looks like a lot of these guys are easily distracted.
Lets not forget that the real point is about QUALITY. Scott, so far you are:
1. Against scoring more points for quality...
2. You also don't care about the birds showing the hole. 3. You say It's time to move away from the high standard that Pensom brought on from those that were before him.
4. Even when I put the proof in your face.. like at the start of this thread, you deny it. You just want things to stay the same even if it is a weak system.
Some of you young guys.. don't get it twisted... I have raised rollers for close to 50 years, and I have competed for years. Birmingham Rollers have been a passion for me and I have tried to contribute to this hobby. It seems that I have gotten some kind of recognition even though I haven't competed lately...so I must be doing something right.
Bill Pensom gave me my first copy of his book. I flew almost 20 birds that Pensom bred, and I saw the quality that he produced. That kind of quality is not easy to produce.
Don't forget that these birds are supposed to roll like a blur, show a hole and have their wings straight up. A good scoring system would make damn sure that these qualities were being rewarded.
Paul Gomez
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Scott
1088 posts
Aug 18, 2008
12:45 PM
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Paul, my grandmother has been driving a car for 50 year and yet she still knows very little about cars ?
Any one that feels a need to impress others with years and nothing else to back them up just doesn't impress me and is what is truely weak .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 18, 2008 12:57 PM
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Scott
1089 posts
Aug 18, 2008
12:49 PM
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(Bill Pensom gave me my first copy of his book. I flew almost 20 birds that Pensom bred, and I saw the quality that he produced. That kind of quality is not easy to produce.)
How breeding in an Almond from the pet score and having a muff "project" fit it to breeding quality birds ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1090 posts
Aug 18, 2008
1:01 PM
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(Don't forget that these birds are supposed to roll like a blur, show a hole and have their wings straight up. A good scoring system would make damn sure that these qualities were being rewarded.)
You are a 100 0/0 correct, and if it wasn't already in place I would agree with you, the problem is you have stepped in to something that you have no experiance with,and still nothing to put up youself bird wise.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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J_Star
1719 posts
Aug 18, 2008
1:14 PM
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I thought your grandmother went after Stan in Canada!!
Jay
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George R.
968 posts
Aug 18, 2008
2:37 PM
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Paul G. said
"Some of you young guys.. don't get it twisted... I have raised rollers for close to 50 years, and I have competed for years"
Paul
what kind of competitions ? Show, Fly ? also what kind of Rules were used back in those days?
do you remember some of the names of the Guys you flew with ? Pensom, Scott, McCully,Sparks, Norwood, Saldana,Higgins, Reed,Jacconette, Etc.
The Novice
George
Last Edited by on Aug 18, 2008 2:41 PM
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