George R.
1112 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:00 PM
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here we go again micromanaging every thing , This shit is getting old no wonder people refuse to Fly .
no matter what a person does theres always going to be someone who has to Bitch .
Pual you Guys did a fine job and I commend you and the guys in your region , I wish there was more regions that supprted the NBRC Fall fly like you guys do.
The Novice
George
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Scott
1216 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:16 PM
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Cliff, as a thought, maybe this region will save our money for a major BBQ and our own fly next year,this region and our RD doesn't need this shit.
And the NBRC obviously doesn't need our $600.00 , I will talk to the region about it and if it flys we will formaly notify all involved of what we decide.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 9:19 PM
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George R.
1113 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:20 PM
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Scott maybe we can fly against you guys and attend your Bar B que . We almost didnt fly this year Because we didnt want our INTEGRITY questioned if we had a few DNF's
george
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 9:20 PM
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Scott
1217 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:23 PM
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How many Ca regions could the NBRC loose before they go in the hole and don't have a fly ? not many
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 9:41 PM
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elopez
1785 posts
Oct 28, 2008
9:39 PM
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Hey Scott, I'll fly on the State fly when I qualify and I'm sure that other qualifiers will love to fly. Get it going, and let's get that trophy out of BA's hands..lol
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
Last Edited by on Oct 28, 2008 10:55 PM
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1-bad-57
57 posts
Oct 28, 2008
10:25 PM
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Scott and Cliff you guys crack me up. Get over each other. This is the same old dead end.
Joe
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fhtfire
1608 posts
Oct 28, 2008
11:57 PM
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Cilff,
You answered my questions and in my book the case is closed..as far as the W/C..I have no idea what you are talking about...I am just a flier in the W/C...Scott would know more about that...so again...case is closed. I really feel a rule change will hurt the NBRC for fees and really discourage fliers if the costs get to high..to be honest some fliers actually see it as a burden to fly there second kit....if it is not up to par...anyway..no harm no foul..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1548 posts
Oct 29, 2008
6:45 AM
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Scott,
You may be correct about the exact "WC region" involved. Since these WC regions are often different from the NBRC regions, I thought I had a good idea where it was located. Help me out here. Was it all or only part of NBRC region 9B located within the boundaries of WC region involved in the Ghost kit issue? (I recall that there was also a region in South Africa that was in question for the same reason.) Like Paul pointed out, 9B is huge and I thought it was in or partially in that WC region. But you bring up a good point that if the WC EC is going to address issues in other WC regions, It may be helpful to have a WC map showing the locations of all the WC regions. It helps us all to better know where we are talking about. If I am not involved in the NBRC championship fly, maybe I can make it your BBQ/state fly. I haven't taken the opportunity to see the birds out there, yet.
Just for the record, how long has the kits flown-kits paid issue been hanging around? I know it was here when I got here. I find all the opinions very interesting and beneficial to understanding different regions positions. Pulling out of the Flys seems a tad radical. I agree with Paul when he states "NO HARM NO FOUL!"
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2008 6:46 AM
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George R.
1114 posts
Oct 29, 2008
7:32 AM
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NBRC championship fly,
I have never heard of a NBRC Championship Fly ?
George
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SpinCityRollers
230 posts
Oct 29, 2008
7:55 AM
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If people are asking questions Cliff then have them submit it in writing and then you hide the names and scan it and post it so you dont look like the culprit
I see your point !!!
I mean there point!!
Dnf will alway be a problem it like child support the good fathers pay for the bad ones we all are deadbeats to the court The good will pay for the bad)
Blow the whistle)Mr Director
MadMax
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2008 9:54 AM
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maxspin
292 posts
Oct 29, 2008
8:55 AM
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George,
I see that you are a stanch supporter of keeping a the name and time frame of Fall Fly.
You must not have a hawk problem.
The hawks are/will cost the NBRC more money than any rule change about DNF.
Many regions just can not fly in the fall. The Northwest is done by Oct. If you are not locked down you are out of birds.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Keith
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Ballrollers
1551 posts
Oct 29, 2008
10:09 AM
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George,
Hehehehehe....you shoulda been a comedian.....On the Finalist plaques I have seen, down near the bottom you will see the Words: 20 Bird or 11 Bird NBRC Championship. There are many other references to the Fall Fly as our national championship.....So that is what I call it.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1552 posts
Oct 29, 2008
11:16 AM
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Mad Max,
Hold on a minute here. Let me see if I can explain what this is about. I get questions from all over the USA about all kinds of subjects, especially regarding the competitions. To form an educated "OPINION", to be able to understand and resolve issues, I must understand BOTH sides of an issue. Because of where I am from, I grew up with the understanding that I have. OK? Same with everybody else. Now to understand where flyers in other regions stand, I need to ask questions. Some of these question can cause hard feelings because most of us don't like to be challenged and are very passionate about our Roller flying. I think we all now have a better understanding on why some regions feel it is their right to enter as many kits as possible to get as many qualifiers as possible within the understanding they have of the current fly policy. They grew in the hobby with this understanding. They "ARE" following the rules as they understand them. OK. Many other regions feel differently because of the way "THEY" understand the fly policy. Both "OPINIONS" are based on the same few words ..." One qualifier for every 10 entrants." One group feels it means kits paid and another group feels it means kits flown. Because of the way the rules are written "BOTH" groups have good reasons to feel as they feel. All I would like us ALL to understand is why both sides feel the way they do. During this discussion, men have questioned why regions used so few DNF's. I tried my best to explain it. They just feel it means kits flown. Are they right and the other side wrong? NO! Both sides are correct until something happens to clear this up. If the pro "kits Paid" regions NOW understand why other regions feel the way they do, I hope we have moved a little towards acceptance of each other's opinion, whatever that may be.
I have another idea that may help in this matter, see what you think. All everybody wants is to have a level playing field? Right? What "IF" ..... If any region requires 10 DNF's or more in either the 20 or the 11 bird fly, every other region who used less than 10 DNFs in the 20 or the 11, has the option to BUY an extra qualifier at the going rate to be used this year or the next. We have NOT limited the DNF's and we have NOT cost the NBRC a dime, infact we may make more money. Every region now has the same opportunity to earn their qualifiers by using DNF's or paying additional funds. It does not require regions to take part in this plan, it just gives them the option. If any region has questions why so-and-so had 10 DNF's, he now can buy a qualifier and be happy. This does not mean I will submit this to the EC, it is just an example of a possible solution to help us all look at things a little differently.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1609 posts
Oct 29, 2008
11:52 AM
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Or leave it the way it is and say that 50% of the kits must be flown.....that seems pretty easy...now everyone is happy..second kits are the option to fly.....any way to get qualifiers ...the more qualifier the more want to fly....the olympics would suck if they only gave a gold...right....
As far as equal playing field...number of qualifiers makes no difference to level the playing field...we are not playing army where the region with the most qualifiers wins....it is not a team sport..but an individual sport....the birds either have it or they dont..regardless of how many qualifiers a region has.....
Take LA for example...you could take half the fliers that did NOT qualify and they would whoop or be able to compete with most of the qualifiers in the country...why...there are more good fliers bunched up....so if one region has 2 qualifiers...one has 4 qualifiers and 1 just has a single qualifiers....there is no guarantee that the region with the 4 will crown a champion...not in this hobby....now if you were in a tug of war match were then the 4 may win....get my point...the amount of qualifiers in a region is no guarantee of a win. Period....Look at history....lost of single qualifier regions have won and hell..I believe one year the winner was a fill in.....so the level playing field is a poor excuse for complaining.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1553 posts
Oct 29, 2008
12:53 PM
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Paul,
I agree with a very important point that you made...the more qualifiers you have, the more guys want to compete. On the other and I have to disagree that the number of qualifers doesn't matter. Take my region, for example. We flew ten 20-bird kits with three National Champs and a World Champ competing...only one qualifer. Fortunately that was me. If we had paid for two kits per flyer in order to get another 20-bird qualifier, any one of these men has the birds and is capable of winning the title. So it can make a big difference in the outcome of the fly. What if a judge verifies that the kits do not exist in a region that has paid for them and then recommends that one of the qualifers be excluded? That would have huge potential to change the outcome of the fly. Thumbing our noses at the other region's flyers and the officers and directors of the NBRC and the World Cup may not be the way to go, though it is an option.
An example of why it is important that we all understand the rules and consider how we are viewed by the other regions is the situation in Idaho and Montana, formerly Region 8A. In last year's Fall Fly they made up their own rule and decided to judge a close panel in half the region and single judge in the other...split the region on their own to get a qualifer from each state......against the rules. They were nearly disqualified for doing so. They did it again in the World Cup and the World Cup discussed whether they should be disqualified. Their qualifer was allowed to stand once again and he won the World Cup. This year they tried it again in the Fall Fly. Again there was discussion among the flyers whether they should be disqualified again. We were able to finally get the region split, once the problem was fully understood and communications took place as to why they were doing things theat way. So the problem was ultimately resolved a win-win for all, but the region almost lost an outstanding qualifer and world champ in the process. That's what we want to avoid.
Cliff
PS The NBRC EC already looked at the 50% kits flown WC fly policy and did not want to change from the current NBRC fly policy. We can't aways have our cake and eat it too. Sometimes we must compromise our ideas to accommodate the majority. Thanks for your input.
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dave
403 posts
Oct 29, 2008
1:15 PM
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Just fly your birds and let the people that are going to handle this handle it. If it's such a huge problem then take it up to the EC, WC RDs, or whom ever is suppose to handle it. Talking about it here will not do anything. Heck, re-write everything to include everything. This is STUPID.
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Ballrollers
1554 posts
Oct 29, 2008
6:37 PM
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dave,
Thanks for your take on things...
Cliff
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SiDLoVE
312 posts
Oct 29, 2008
6:58 PM
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This is not hard!!!!!!!!!!! If i decide to pay for 2 kits and decide i dont wanna waste anybodys time to view the 2nd kit thats my decision , not the EC or RD's decision, I paid , Money talks , and i decide it!! God Bless
DjSid
Thunderbirds
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fhtfire
1611 posts
Oct 30, 2008
10:05 AM
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Sid,
Good Post....if it aint broke dont fix it.....
I get frustrated when I hear that not everybody understands the rule....my 9 year old read the sentence and understood it. Qualifiers will be based on kits entered....not flown....cut and dry....if someone chooses to only kits flown...then that is not very smart to do...an RD for a region should work "WITHIN THE RULES" in any way possible to benefit there region..if other RD's...choose not to...then they are not working to the benefit of there region....I am not saying cheat...I am saying within the rules...to me it is a NO BRAINER!! Cliff...if you have 3 national champions in your region and you did not pay for 2 kits each...not smart..you could of had another qualifier...and the NBRC could have made a couple hundred bucks more....if you do not like DNF....then fly your second kits.....A good coach, RD, CEO, Business owner...will work within the rules to benefit there cause....Take you taxes for example.....stock option is a company...flipping houses....they all have rules and the ones that succeed...work within the rules to benefit there company, cause and people...PERIOD...Cheating I am against....in anything..I believe in KARMA!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1555 posts
Oct 30, 2008
11:06 AM
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Paul,
I understand your frustration, but if you lived in a region that did not support your original understanding and almost everybody else supported a different understanding, you may rethink your position. Or maybe not! If the flyers in my region had 2 20 bird kits, yes, they entered two kits, but most split their options to enter into both the 11 and the 20. We still got three qualifiers; one in the 20 and two in the 11. (And, yes, we have had a couple of DNFs from guys who locked down because of BOP, as in most regions.)I was just making up an example, for you, of how the number of qualifiers in a region COULD make a difference in some regions, depending on the strength of the flyers and the kits....in response to your assertion that the number of qualifers doesn't really matter. The NBRC made the same amount of money, we supported the NBRC and our region, just as you did. The only difference is, that we expect the men who enter two kits to fly both kits..... If at all possible.....and almost all did. Same goes if you enter just one kit. We just have a different way of looking at this issue, not right or wrong, just different. Our RD's believe, they ARE working within the rules, just as you do. Many did enter two kits. We just have a difference of opinion about this issue, nothing more.
Cliff
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fhtfire
1613 posts
Oct 30, 2008
11:53 AM
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Cliff,
Region 9B also encourages all our fliers to fly two...but it is up the the individual...to want to fly them or not...I dont stand in there back yard and I dont know the quality of there 2nd team...there is no pressure whatsoever not to fly your second team...the option is always there...the only ding against a second team is that they usually do not get the "Premium" fly times....
As far as extra qualifiers being National Champions...again...is there something wrong with more competition in the Finals....I would much rather place high in the finals with big names and more fliers.......and to be honest...being a National Champion does not mean squat in this sport.....ANYBODY could win it all on that given day...to many things can go wrong to mess up a fly.....As a Finals qualifier....I wish Joe Bob and Clay and all the SC boys qualified....I LOVE competition...in the finals ..I want to go up against the best period....and the more the marrier....Plus when you get your ass whooped you have an excuse..."look at the competition....what do you expect"...lol...but even the best can be knocked off the perch on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY>>>>>there is nothing negative about more competition in the finals...from more qualifiers.....it makes more fliers want to compete with more spots opening up...some fill they may have a chance to make the big show.....the NBRC earns more money......The DNF..save money and fuel for the regional fliers.....and saves the environment from more hydrocarbons for no reason...it is a win win situation....what negative aspect is there.....cave man mentallity...me want to fly against all kits or me no champion.....anyway...ok..I am done....
I feel that the other fliers are within the rules too...but to question another region is when you feel that they are breaking the rules....if our region for example is within the rules....then you cant say anything....you may not like it....but it is still within the rules....some regions choose not to....LIFE IS FULL OF CHOICES>>>>...we chose to support the region and the NBRC...
Cliff, Why not put the money toward the 20 bird..the 11 bird is just a kiddie fly..remember...lol...why play minor league ball when you can play in the majors...LOL...kidding.
rock and ROLL
paul
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Ballrollers
1557 posts
Oct 30, 2008
1:12 PM
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Paul,
Yes, we all have choices and one of those choices is to enjoy all the different contests available and sponsored by the NBRC. Our region proudly supports "BOTH" choices. That is one way a real region supports the NBRC. LOL! As far as one of the choices being a kiddy fly or minor league, I think we may have found another difference in our regional understandings. You won't mind if I throw in with the opinions of the National Champs and World Cup Champ in my region, when it comes to the value of the 11-bird in evaluating quality performance will ya?! LOL! And I couldn't agree more that roller success lasts only till our next fly. But as far as you statement,
"being a National Champion does not mean squat in this sport.....ANYBODY could win it all on that given day..."
Well I gotta disagree with you, bigtime, buddy. I'm surprised to hear such a statement from you...Perhaps you should rephrase your comment to...being a national Champ does not mean squat to YOU. To most men in the hobby, it DOES mean squat......it represents a fairly coveted accomplishment.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2008 1:41 PM
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fhtfire
1614 posts
Oct 30, 2008
4:27 PM
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Cliff,
There you go again..twisting words....I did not say it does not mean squat to be a national champion....like it is not a great accomplishment....what I am saying is it does not mean squat as far as you winning it once that you will do it again...and there are way to many things that can make a fly good or bad...one BOP can ruin a fly...a little wind...a little heat..climate change...a couple out birds that were never out birds before...moult...a bird landing and pulling another down...and the fact that your birds have to hit on all cyclinders that ONE DAY...
Cliff you are an educated man...you knew what I meant...I am not Scott...you dont have to twist my words all up to win...you know damn good and well I did not mean that being a National Champion does not mean squat when winning the title...last time I checked..that was my goal along with others....You said it yourself...in one paragraph..it is only as good as the next fly....You could be Scott Campbell..Joe Bob...anybody could win if you are in the finals..I feel it is open to everyone to win...not just becuase you won before...I dont even think your odds go up if you have one it one time or not....The very FEW can win it numerous times.....so CLIFF DONT TWIST WHAT I SAID....If I honestly belived that the title did not mean squat...I would not even be flying...DUH!!!
Now if this was a human sport.....then I can see you winning over and over...but a team of birds is affected by EVERYTHING..HEll one overfly and you may never capture the magic again.....In this hobby...there are no long shots in the finals....Look at Dave Sab....had some wind and then done....so...again...Winning one time does not mean squat.....and never winnning at all does not mean squat...I myself have huge respect for the ones that are consistently at the top...then the one hit wonders....
NEVER SAID IT WAS NOT AN ACCOMPLISHMENT>>AND WHEN YOU STATED>>THAT YOU WERE SURPRISED THAT THE STATEMENT CAME FROM ME>>>>USUALLY WHEN YOU ARE SUPRISED ABOUT A STATEMENT YOU ARE READING IT OUT OF CONTEXT>>>>RE READ MY POST>>>AND STILL NOTHING ABOUT THE ACCOMPLISHMENT NOT MEANING SQUAT>>>JUST THAT BECAUSE YOU WON DOES NOT MEAN SQUAT FOR THE NEXT YEARS FLY>>THAT IS A NO BRAINER>>>PULL YOUR BEST BIRDS FOR STOCK AN SEE HOW MUCH YOUr KIT TAKES A STEP BACK!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2008 4:38 PM
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Dave Szab
205 posts
Oct 30, 2008
4:34 PM
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There is a simple answer to the DNF problem. There are really only 2 camps in this debate, one camp wants no DNFs, and the other wants some DNFs allowed, up to 50%. The no DNF camp will never win out because there will always have to be some kind of allowance for a kit that couldn't be flown. The answer is that EVERY flyer that enters 2 kits be REQUIRED to fly at least one of them, and that at least 50% of the number of kits per qualifier MUST be flown and be different flyers. In other words if a region is only able to actually fly half of the required flyers for a qualifier, guys actually flying 2 kits could not be part of the minimum.
Here is an example:
A region wants 2 qualifiers in the NBRC Fall Fly 20 bird fly. They have 10 flyers that each pay for 2 kits, therefore they have 20 entrants which means 2 qualifiers. Since they have entered the minumum number of kits to get 2 qualifiers, they would each be required to fly at least one of their kits. It would not be acceptable for one of their flyers to DNF both of their kits and be made up by another flyer flying both of his kits. This only would apply because they actually flew only 10 out of 20 kits. Of course nothing would stop any of the flyers from flying both of their kits, as long as at least 10 different flyers flew at least one of their kits.
When I was World Cup General Coordinator, this was my interpretation of the rule that we in the WC Committee had passed in the previous year, but some WC RDs did not interpret it the same way. I decided to re-visit the issue after the fly instead of penalizing a couple regions during the fly, but I stepped down after the fly and current GC Ron Duncan never took up the issue.
My suggested answer to the DNF issue above would work, and keep entrants from buying qualifers with flyers that never intended to fly ANY kit.
Dave Szabatura
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fhtfire
1615 posts
Oct 30, 2008
4:40 PM
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Good Post Dave....seems....to simple...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1558 posts
Oct 30, 2008
5:40 PM
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Dave,
Just the guy I was looking for. You were on the NBRC EC when they made recommendations about the fly rules 2004-2005? Can you recall what the majority opinion was when it came to either accepting the WC 50% kits flown rule or sticking with the 10 entrants gets you one qualifier? Or was anything said at all? The WC rules puts all regions on the same footing when it comes to NO MORE than 50% DNF's/50% kits flown/0 ghost kits, per region. That levels the playing field when it comes to earning the qualifiers and in my short history on the WC EC , it seems to work well for a large majority of the regions. I also notice that the WC specifically prohibits ghost kits from being entered. In other words..the kits must actually exist, correct? No "buying" qualifiers...? I'm not sure that the camps are quite so polarized. I don't think anyone seriously believes that 0 DNFs is possible. There are always extreme events that can prevent a kit from being flown. I agree with you.....some DNF's will always be part of the system. What is your thinking on whether there is a way to determine how many DNF's are too many, within the framework of the NBRC fly policy? When the number of DNFs begin to equal a qualifier (10 or more), it begins to raise questions among flyers in other regions. Maybe we should just accept the two different camps and move forward till a time when the NBRC EC sees fit to add some clarity to this 10 for 1 qualifier system? I think the two sides are deeply entrenched and we may need to accept each others differences until a better solution comes along. The last thing we need is more controversy about fly rules/fly policy.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1559 posts
Oct 30, 2008
5:45 PM
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Paul,
Sorry for the misunderstanding....I actually took you at your word, but I should have figured you did not mean what you said. Glad you cleared that up. I'll know better next time!
Cliff
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Scott
1225 posts
Oct 30, 2008
6:42 PM
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Dave, the problem is that the NBRC did visit this issue back when and declined it for the kits paid, of coarse that can allways be revisited.
Where we screwed up with the W/C back then is leaving that hole open with the "must be a legit excuse to not fly even the first one" , personly I think that at least one kit should be flown regardless as you suggested to try and keep the ghost flyers out of the mix which was the origial intent.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2008 6:57 PM
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Scott
1226 posts
Oct 30, 2008
6:55 PM
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Cliff what the heck are these so called different "camps" that you keep refering too ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1227 posts
Oct 30, 2008
6:56 PM
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(Cliff you are an educated man...you knew what I meant...I am not Scott...)
I'm not sure how to take this one LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Santandercol
3308 posts
Oct 30, 2008
6:59 PM
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My humble opinion on having to have at least 8 flyers with 2 kits each to get a qualifier for your region is the following-"It's a bunch of BS.In this day and age when it is difficult for many folks to have even one kit flying well enough to warrant a judge coming to your place to evaluate your birds,why not just make it easier to form a region?Up here in the Great White North(Canada),roller fliers willing to compete are so few and far between locations,it is hard to form a region.This country is not as nearly densely populated as south of the 49th.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Ballrollers
1560 posts
Oct 30, 2008
7:08 PM
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Scott,
I was referring to Szabatura's description of two "camps" on the issue of DNFs.
Cliff
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Santandercol
3310 posts
Oct 31, 2008
5:55 AM
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Yeah,well,,,,,I guess your Canuck bros are just kinda insignificant chumps,eh!?
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Dave Szab
206 posts
Oct 31, 2008
6:28 AM
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Cliff,
I looked back in my records, and we discussed the paid vs flown issue on the NBRC Committee in Sept 2005. I don't think we ever made a decision, except that we were thinking of putting it to a vote by the membership. The Bradley-Hester thing then hit and our discussions turned to that issue. My term on the EC ended on Dec 31, 2005. so I don't know how you guys resolved the paid vs flown issue. If you look through the NBRC Bulletins for 2006, you might find the answer. I haven't had time to do that.
As far as my thoughts on the DNF issue and how many to allow, while I personally would prefer that there be as few DNFs as possible, especially for getting a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th qualifier, the resolution that I support, because I think it would have the best chance for being passed, is the resolution that I outlined in my post above.
Dave Szabatura
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maxspin
294 posts
Oct 31, 2008
7:37 AM
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How about this:
1 qualifier requires 10 kits "flown"
2 qualifiers requires 25 kits "flown"
3 qualifiers requires 40 kits "flown"
This would still allow the small regions to participate. It would however prevent a region from getting 3 qualifiers without even flying enough kits to get 2.
It is one thing to "buy" one qualifier, but there are regions that are buying two qualifiers.
Keith Maxwell
P.S. I have always "supported" the NBRC and my region in order to get that extra qualifier if at all possible.
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fhtfire
1617 posts
Oct 31, 2008
8:19 AM
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Keith,
None of the regions are BUYING a qualifier....just becuase you do not fly does not mean you are buying a qualifier...EVERY flier in region 9B had 2 kits to fly....buying a flier is nothing more then a ghost kit.
Keith...I will ask you...what is the difference between DNF ....and 10 kits with a 0 or DQ.
Is it truly better to put up a bunch of young birds with no chance on gods great earth to qualify....or a kit with 15 birds and one out bird the whole fly....or to watch a kit get torn to shreads by BOP JUST to make the last qualifier Legit...I cant see make sense of that at all. The flier should be able to say...I cant fly..or its a waste of time..I know my birds and they will not qualifiy "SAVE THE MONEY AND FUEL"..I heard that 13 Times...SAVE MONEY AND FUEL>>> SAVE MONEY AND FUEL>>>
I really cant see wasting time and money just for the reasons above.
Now if Myself, Dwight and a bunch of other fliers that had our kits on...had wind on Saturday and nobody scored...I bet my left nut that more 2nd kits would fly...if the leaders were in the 20-50pt range....just a couple good breaks would put you up there....
I would totally agree with all of you if kits were BOUGHT...that is plain wrong...all you have to do is verify that there are at least two kits on the property when you fly the first kit...and problem solved.
I would hate to have the rule change...and for some reason....4 or 5 fliers said that they would NOT fly do to BOP...and then we lose a qualifier because of a true reason not to fly.
WHY GO THROUGH THE MOTIONS>>>JUST TO DO IT>>IT IS A WASTE>
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 8:45 AM
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fhtfire
1618 posts
Oct 31, 2008
8:42 AM
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Can somebody answer these questions.
Would you drive to an NBA game 1.5 hrs to watch sixth graders play basketball. (same as watching young birds fly in circles)
Would you drive to an amusement park for 1.5 hrs when all the rides were broken. (2nd Kit has been hit by BOP so much...they fly fast and eratic...kit is broken)
Would you drive to a person house to watch him pull the heads off 3 of his pigeons right in front of you for no reason. (2nd Kit owner says everytime he flies he loses min 3 birds)
Would you drive 1.5 hours to watch a golf game when the weather report stated that there was a 100% chance of lightning storms. (Save your gas I am 100% sure my birds will not roll one time...they are stiff)
Would you drive 1.5 hours to watch a football game when one team had the minimum amount of players and one player on crutches and if he goes out the team will have to forefit. ( I only have 15 birds...and One bird hit hard yesterday...may not even fly..not worth it to come out.)
Would drive 1.5hrs to go in the woods to search for an Pine Tree in a Oak tree grove...Knowing full on that there are no pine trees....
(My B team is no way in hell going to beat 107...I fly the birds day in and day out and the most they would get is 20 pts...save you gas)
Would you take you labs hunting for ducks when you know that there are alligators in the water.....
(I dont want to fly my birds....the Coopers just wait for them....)
It is the same thing...just a different hobby...or a different event.....but your common sense will kick in on some things...but it wont on others....just to make a fly legit...you force someone to fly when they paid the money and they know if there birds have it or not....they know there BOP issue...Fliers will drop off the map as soon as we force someone to fly.....or make them feel like they are being forced....fliers will drop off the map if you only have one qualifier.......with 10 fliers and 20 kits......fliers will drop of the map if you waste money when everyone if feeling the pinch just to go through the motions....
Buying Qualifiers and DNF are two different things....
Buying Qualifiers.....Paying for kits that are not there.
DNF....Legitimate reason to not fly a team of birds..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 8:47 AM
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Ballrollers
1561 posts
Oct 31, 2008
8:58 AM
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Keith,
I like your idea! I can see that you value the spirit of true competition. But we must temper our competitive spirit with the day to day issues that we all encounter. Crap happens. Therefore DNF's have a part to play and I accept that, especially in small regions trying to earn one qualifier. But to earn more than one qualifier, I feel the regions should earn those qualifiers by competition not by the purchase plan. BUT I certainly understand that there are regions that do not share my understanding. It is the fault of the vague fly policy and history within a region. Thanks for weighing in with an opinion.
Dave,
Thanks for the info. Did anyone ever consider A sliding scale of 50% kits flown for the "FIRST" qualifier, a 80% kits flown for the second qualifier and 90% kits flown over 2 qualifiers; something like Keith has recommended? Logic would dictate, the more flyers, the more qualifiers so that the more flyer dense a region, the more flyers that would want to fly and the less DNF's required for larger regions with more flyers? If we want regions to have their Qualifiers earn their place in the finals. I realize it is a fine balancing act between competition and finances. Do we place more emphasis on money or do we place more importance, seeing that the best kits in a region are competing in the finals because they earned their way in compared to buying their way in?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 9:03 AM
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Ballrollers
1562 posts
Oct 31, 2008
9:13 AM
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Paul,
For the record, the primary concern here, is not a small region trying to get one qualifier. I think we have to bend over backward to help every region get at least one qualifier and include guys that are remotely located. The concern that has been expressed is about any region that consistantly posts 10 or more DNF's and gets MORE than one qualifier. It happens, occasionally...ok, guys will buy it. They start questioning it when a pattern developes, of the same thing every year. You ask what is the difference between 10 DNF's and 10 kits that scored on their fly sheets, by a qualified judge who evaluated their kits, and gave them either DQ's or 0 ? ONE WORD .... COMPETITION!!!!!!! These men showed the courage to fly in the face of adversity, had the courage to let the judge score their birds. In addition, I be those guys learned something about why they DQ'd or scored 0. If the kits are getting torn to ribbons, maybe the region should try to find a better season to fly thier regionals. OR maybe they need to offer the 11 bird fly if so many birds are being taken by bops that the the 20 bird is no longer an option. AS you put it..THERE ARE OPTIONS! Perhaps a region would get more bang for their buck, if they only offered to subsidize kits that the flyer INTENDS to fly. Then maybe DNF's would not be utilized to the levels we see last year and this. Maybe these free kits are being discounted and not flown because there is no money on the line by the flyer. Yes, I know you guys are trying to make a smaller carbon footprint, use less gas, save the judge time, And all that is something to consider.... I guess. But to say that a region can be no larger than what we can judge on a single weekend is a real strange way of looking at this. (Our region flew over four weekends to help level the playing field for everyone, with regard to fly times). Then we turn right around and belly ache about needing flyers who want to fly their kits. I know all regions are run differently but some of this stuff astounds me.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 9:26 AM
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J_Star
1766 posts
Oct 31, 2008
10:39 AM
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Paul,
If flyers have those reasons as stated above, then why they are entering them in!! It sound like ghost kits kinda sorta thingy but the kit exist on the property.
However, I enjoyed your explanations of your point of you, Cliffs, Scotts and Dave. It has been educational and entertaining on occasions. Thanks for your good work Paul in your region.
Jay
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fhtfire
1619 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:07 PM
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Keith,
So far Region 9B..has its results...I am the RD for 9B and we had 13 DNF our of 30 kits entered....You said that some regions have bought 2 and 3 qualifiers.....are you accusing 9B of Buying qualifiers....because you should for one take a look of the names of the fliers in region 9B...lots of respected names of HONEST people...Bill Crider, Dwight Wallace, Scott Campbell, Ken Firl, Steve Bills, Myself, Don Siggins, Harold Marshal....and the list goes on..most of these guys have been flying since I was chasing the ladies i High School....so for one..just the names should show everything is legit..
Second...As Regional Director....I can tell you every flier had two or more kits on there property....Every flier was given the option to fly there second kit....the choice was there choice and they all had legit reasons on not flying.
So please.....take a long hard look at the Region and the fliers in that region....before comments are made about buying a qualifier....
Again...for the elevedy bilionth time...we could have flown every kit....but I had to ask myself WHY?? just to make a few guys happy...no way..I care about my regions financial situation and BOP situation to much to force the issue.
The fliers in our region all felt they were not doing an injustice by not flying....they were helping Save Money, Save Time, Save Birds and Save Gas and Save the environment...so I as an RD salute my fliers for using Risk vs. Gain and Fact Vs. Probabilities...these are two things I use in my job in life and death situations...and everyday life...and the fliers in our region used it too...so again....for you too Keith....NO QUALIFIERS WERE BOUGHT>>>WE COULD HAVE FLOWN ALL OF THEM>>>>>BUT THE RISK OUTWEIGHTED THE GAIN AND THE FACTS OUTWEIGHTED THE PROBABILIIES.
Rock and ROll
Paul
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Ballrollers
1563 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:09 PM
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Paul,
You asked."Can anone answere these questions for me?" Let me take a stab at it....just for the "FUN" of it, you will drive 1.5 hours to watch sixth graders play basket ball to show respect for your son, or your best friend's son, who is playing. You drive to an amusement park for 1.5 hours when you know the rides are all broken to spend quality time with someone who is in the car with you. You drive 1.5 hours to a golf match with the weather threatening in hopes the weather changes. Meanwhile you talk golf with your buddies. You drive 1.5 hours to watch a football game that may have to forfeit because your son or your friend is the one on crutches and you want to show your support. (It's no different in the roller sport!) Next.....I would get better directions before I left the house. Get a pit bull for a retriever, sic him of any gator you see. If anyone shows lack of respect for any flyer or his birds, he may not make a good regional director. If any region used the same logic, I see here, I am surprised more men do not use MORE DNF's. It's all a matter of the perspective you choose. Look for better choices!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 12:10 PM
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fhtfire
1620 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:24 PM
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J star,
The reasons listed above are well...You cant put the cart before the horse.....Money is turned in a couple weeks before the deadline...and we all know the BOP issue can go to shit in a weeks time.....you cant forsee the loss of birds when you are training them and pushing them to there limit...I lost 2 birds out of my A-team during training..two broken wings..(just and example)..and you for sure cant predict the scores.....so you have to enter just in case....you know...why warm up a pitcher in the bull pin...to get him ready to go in if he has too.
So....if the guys did not enter both kits...then they for sure would not have have a shot to fly the second kit....just like I said...if the scores at the top were lower for whatever reason....then more kits would have flown...fliers are not going to fly just to fly....when they have to pay for fuel at 4.00 per gallon. That is human nature.
Again..you enter two kits to double your odds of being able to put up a good score...or have a little luck on your side and hope the big time fliers choke...or have bad weather..or a BOP attack....then the scores are lower and the second kits could have a shot...that is good strategy...I always have my ace in the hole....I flew my B team first...they scored a good score....the only reason I put up my A team was because I did not know if the score would hold up with the Scott Campbells, Ken Firls Chuck Roes..etc sill in the hole...and I knew my A-team had been firing on all cyclinders....so I had to fly before the big boys...anyway....if we could all see in the future...I am sure most would have much rather not paid money for a second kit. ....so no cart before the horse.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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maxspin
295 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:34 PM
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Paul,
YES! I am accusing your Region of buying qualifiers!!!
NO! I am not accusing your Region of breaking any rules!!!
Regions 9B's policy of entering 2 kits regardless of intent to fly is all about qualifiers. No matter how you twist or turn it.
That option is open for all regions.
Keith
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fhtfire
1621 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:35 PM
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Cliff,
You have to remember....The fliers made the choice not to fly...not the RD...nobody it was all the fliers choices....The examples are used to show that you would not do these things unles you had no common sense...and of course you put your spin on it...nowhere did it say my kids or a friends kids....and Scott Campbell does not need quality time...I already creep him out with my ear rings....I saw the guys for three days... or 18 hours..e not to fly..not the RD or peer pressure....so no respect was lost...they showed there respect to there fellow fliers, the NBRC and the judge..by not wasting time, Gas and energy....BAM!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
1121 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:38 PM
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Paul
You dont have to explain nothing to Cliff you are a person that has great integrity.
nothing you can say or do will make Cliff happy so we might as well move on .
once again GREAT JOB !!! and keep up the good work .
The Novice
George
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fhtfire
1622 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:47 PM
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Keith,
Damn right it is about qualifiers...you enter for the qualifiers.....you are right...never denied that..that is a no brainer...but the kits were all there and could have flown..but there were reasons not to fly...how about this...next year..we will post the DQ's...# of birds lost to hawks...and the zeros...and then we will bill the NBRC for the waste of time and get our money back...
Most can barely put together a top notch A-team....the B-team is the Ace in the hole...or your bullpin...
Second...This is the first time in any event that I have ever been ridiculed for being within the rules.....I have a Huge back ground in many event that I have entered, played, and was the chairmen and this is the first time I have ever hear anybody BITCH about someone following the rules...breaking the Rules YES....
I have played Baseball, Basketball, Wrestling and Football from a child until I was in College, I have participated and run car shows at the local and National Level, I have raised and shown Livestock for most of my life as a 4-H all star...beef, Swine Sheep and Goats...was a Round Robin showman at the local and national level...and won showmanship awards in every project...I have won Demonstration and speech contest in the local and state level and have also judged...I have judged car shows...refed Wrestling at the jr.high and High school lever...been an umpire....I was an avid drag racer...and also raced Motocross....I have judged and competed in Floraculture and Hortaculture...was a gold medal winner in the YCSD Academic Decathalon....
With all this background in competing and I have NEVER had someone BITCH about working within the rules....NEVER....until now...I have had numerous cases of protest for BREAKING THE RULES< CHEATING>>>>etc...but never following the rules..especially with rules as cut and dry as our rule...KITS ENTERED>..no brainer..so again. WOW..sore losers or pissed because you did not think of it....who knows.
I have also had my ass whooped in event...handed to me on a platter...I have been hit so hard in football I forgot my name....and so on....and never accused anybody of anything...I shook there hand and said...I ll get you next time...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 1:00 PM
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fhtfire
1623 posts
Oct 31, 2008
12:56 PM
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You know what...I am going to quit posting for awhile and I am going to reconsider my job as RD....This is the first time in roller flying that I have a sour taste in my mouth...and the ones who know me...know it takes a lot to get a sour taste in my mouth. There is one thing that I will not tolerate...is someone accusing me of cheating or lying...I come from an athletic family where I was preached to be a true sportsman and never cheat.....I was also raised by a Souther Father (arkansas) and you never steal, cheat or lie....and those are the only things that I will go toe to toe over if accused.
I am going to re consider flying in competitions or even being an NBRC member....this is a hobby that is supposed to be fun...there is no money involved nothing...these birds keep my sanity from what I see i my job..and very rough spots in my life...and I tell you ...maybe it is just the RD job....not worth it to me to get accused of unsportsmanlike conduct when I instill that in my kid and it was instilled in me...I have been requested to ref and judge..because I am fair and follow the rules...
Now I know why it is hard to find RD's...and now I know why fliers quit competing in club flies or compete at all....this is a hobby to have fun with.....Hey..if there is bunch of cash at the end of the tunnel..then by all means go to the next level...
Still...this is the first time....that I feel attacked and my fellow fliers in my region..that are upstanding honest fliers...out of all the debates on this site...that were fun....this one is not...i will not stand being accused of cheating....so everyone...it has been fun...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 1:04 PM
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fhtfire
1624 posts
Oct 31, 2008
1:08 PM
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Cliff,
I will email you very soon on my decision to give up my spot as RD of 9B and giving up my spot in the finals....I will sit down tomorrow when I am off duty and talk with the guys in the club fly tomorrow.....and see if somone could take my spot in the finals...and take over as RD...I will let you know by tomorrow evening....when my choice is made tomorrow...It will be effective immediatly...
If nobody can fly..since there are only a couple left that could do it..and they may be on lockdown too...THen my spot will be a DNF..funny..a DNF....then our region will drop to two qualifiers.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2008 1:11 PM
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maxspin
296 posts
Oct 31, 2008
1:41 PM
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Paul,
Don't let this get you upset.
Cliff is just trying to get all regions to play on a level playing field.
It is up to each RD to get as many qualifiers as they can. For our region the second kit is less expensive as an encouragement to enter more than one. Still adds up to more money for the Region and the NBRC.
You are doing a great job for your region.
I too will quit posting on this subject.
Keith Maxwell
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