3757
1014 posts
Nov 13, 2008
8:20 AM
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0042 - The problem with the term best to best is that it is subjective in the sense your best and someone else's best can be different as night and day. Who is deciding what is best? I have always had a problem with people quoting this statement as it is so subjective. I know people do not like talking about it but how many times have you seen a bird that someone was jumping up and down about and you look at them like they are on drugs because the bird was a piece of cow manure. Now, when that guy puts his "best" together what does he get? Remember, it was his best!
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Longroller
5 posts
Nov 13, 2008
8:27 AM
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I think it interesting to consider the dynamics to the birthing...what did we feed the parents, weather, hatching situations..We want to talk about best to best, but forget if the nest bowl is not a good one, you end up with splay legs. "Best and Worst" are comparitive terms..in some folks loft, their 'worst' is much better than the "best" in another loft. Giving advice is one thing. Receiving advice is another. I advocate reading and looking at history and looking at aged birds that have produced and their owners that raised them. Look and listen..however many of the folks on our forums are very new with the instantaneous mentality of buy a kit of young birds this morning, flying it this afternoon, and selling it tonite because it did not roll to competition standards. Good birds are not free..somebody has to work for them..the work includes good management, breeding techniques and and and....quit rambling Longroller
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Longroller
6 posts
Nov 13, 2008
8:29 AM
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LD..you and I are on the same sheet..I was writing and you posted..good thoughts..
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2008 8:29 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2902 posts
Nov 13, 2008
8:45 AM
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Hey 0042, let me see if I can help out here: "breeding best to best" rolls off the tongue or the keyboard real nice and makes the one quoting it sound smarter than they are...B2B is a concept that breaks down when you actually put two birds together.
I think anyone who has been around top notch birds for a while and can breed them would have to agree that no 2 birds are perfect in hitting the definition of Ideal Birmingham Roller, so then it stands to reason that we are all breeding from imperfect birds.
It just comes down to the degree of "imperfect" and positive traits one has to work with.
Breeding rollers is a process of selection. Selecting the traits from one bird to the next provides us with an accumulation of certain genes that can be massaged in different ways depending on the preferences, understanding and stock contained in the loft.
I am writing an article now that explores the "best to best" approach and its strength and weaknesses...will be coming out in my new "Roller Pigeon Digest" to be introduced later.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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3757
1015 posts
Nov 13, 2008
9:42 AM
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042 - Here is the problem. There are a few guys here in Southern California that sells tons of pigeons and they often state that their culls are better than what is out there today which in my opinion is BS. You see the money game has corrupted many and then they get novices to also acclaim how great the birds are and junk gets passed around. Some do not even cull anything because they actually believe that their culls are better and sell everything! Now, the novices does not know but puts his or hers faith in this BS because of a name " ". You always here the positive things of a family but every family breeds culls. Now, if a guy sells everything even his culls guess what the best is for the guy that bought them?
Longroller - Thanks
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Longroller
8 posts
Nov 13, 2008
10:05 AM
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I believe we need to have the ability to say.."My family of birds failed to meet my expectations." Or perhaps, "I did not get the desired results in my management system/breeding system." I like the statement.."If you loose your ability to fail---you loose your ability to succeed!" We need not talk about culling here (as it is well taken care of on another thread), but almost every time my cull friend comes by, I always try to find something to give him that does not come up to my expectation or goal. Keeps me close to the line and that's where I find quality in my birds.
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Lipper
8 posts
Nov 13, 2008
12:15 PM
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I have been raising and breeding animals for a long time, and for what it is worth I am going to tell you what has worked and not worked for me.
Treeing Walkers, UKC and PKC money winners and grand night champions oh yeah there are some grand show titles as well, but not by me. I started competition hunting in the early 80's and started my line at that time.
Dairy cattle - I was born and raised with them, lots of 100 lb. plus producers...
We used a holstein bull alot in the early 90's AI to some of our herd. We got good production and very showy cows. This was the plus - The negative was temperment, you never knew when you were going to get the hell kicked out of you, and they had weeker legs.
Coonhounds, I still have my same hounds today. I outcrossed about three or four times in the past 25 years, but to the same family of walkers. I have bred really hot hounds to really hot hounds hoping to get a hotter hound yet. What I got was hyper, slick treeing, trash running idiots...
This is just a taste of what I have experienced. So what I am trying to get across is this: Breeding very close has many good benefits; all the good stuff is enhanced, but so our all the faults. You need to find the qualities you want to lock into your birds, but minimize the faults.
Heres how I do it: I look for X number of the best sires I have and breed them to the best dams I have. Over time sires are bred to the different dams I have selected. The young are tested keeping only the ones with the most factors I want and minimal faults, everything else is culled. I mean culled, not given away or sold...The measuring stick used is in numbers of quality young produced. You will always have a cull or so, this is because in the beginning and forever the faulty genes will still pop up. By culling these out and breeding from your good pool you will strengthen the good genes and make them more dominate. Right at this very moment I dont get complaints from the people who hunt my hounds, and its because I took the time and spent money feeding and hunting my pups. Pigeons can be bred this way quicker and less expensively than hounds for the obvious reasons.
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Lipper
10 posts
Nov 13, 2008
12:44 PM
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Quickspin,
I was lucky enough to get a good line bred pup in the 80's, and I knew she was out of good stuff. I drove 1000's of miles and spent thousands on stud fee's and pretty soon I never left home to breed again.
You have to go to who is winning and dig very deep to get the bird or it's offspring. You also need to go somewhere else and do the same thing. Your goal is better birds than what they have, and have it as your own line...
Best of luck to you, if you follow through with it you will succeed. You know as well as I do the pride in seeing your work pay off...
Mike
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Lipper
11 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:03 PM
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Quickspin,
Your absolutely correct....I want to have birds that I feel should be the standard but also have birds to win. To win you have to follow the crowd, until what wins changes you have to strive for that goal...
Mike
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Lipper
12 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:11 PM
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0042,
If you are raising to please yourself do as you please. If you want to compete you have to follow what the rules say. I would be concerned where this axle roll comes from, and would probably treat it as a fault if I didnt know the background. This is just me, and lots of folks have disagreed with me over the years..Standards and what are considered good traits are established to keep an ideal. The ideal is there as a focal point, sure its alright to stray from it here and there to make enhancements. The ideal or standard is there so that we do not get to far from it..
Mike
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Lipper
13 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:30 PM
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Quickspin wrote:
Also I don't stock that many birds 1-2 a year. I obtain this birds in 2007 and 1/2 of them were flown out for more than 3 years by the breeder. I ask if he pair them up for me the first year. The 2nd year I exchange sires and breed them to different hens withing the same strain. I learn that some birds produce hot birds with some hens and seldom birds with another. It takes time and I know what I want but it's very hard to produce it.
I wrote:
This idea everyone has of flying birds out for 2-3 years before stocking, well I have a problem with it...Here is my problem; I think you would agree that by 12 months a pigeon is an adult. He is born with his special talents, and these should be noticed in his first year...The 2nd and 3rd year he should just be using his intelligence to control his abilities, no more no less..Some pigeons are smarter than others, and they gain intelligence from experience. Traits are either there or there not..Some rollers are later developers than others just like hounds..Sorry but I dont want to wait 2-3 years to use my stock, I dont want late results, I want them now..I had a Grand Nite Champion who was a little over a year old, he smoked dogs that were 5-7 years old..Do you see my reasoning for wanting and knowing you dont have to wait that long? By the way this same dog had a dual Grand pup before he was 4 years old..He didnt get better as he got older he slowed down, still just as good as he was at a year...
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Lipper
14 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:47 PM
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Hey guys I'm not here to offend anyone...This is all just about me and what I see... With dairy and hounds I bred for profit and winning competitions..Not always the pleasure hounds if you get my drift. You unsnap one of my hounds you are going to a tree somewhere.. You dont whistle here Fido and thay come back..They ignore you and find a coon, they dont care that you have to climb a mountain and then cross a river to get to them...This is how they are bred to win...I and it's just me carry this same philosophy into rollers..So dont mind me, I'm just trying to relay my perspectives to you.. I am not judging anyone or trying to say do it my way. I really just enjoy sharing the hobby and striving for that elusive perfection.I have many friends who disagree with me from time to time.
Mike
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Windjammer Loft
473 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:52 PM
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One other thing to remember is. What are you considering BEST to BEST is??? Is it your best rolling bird, best type, best mottle, best with with velocity. or speed??? It all depends on what your considering BEST???
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Lipper
17 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:27 PM
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It's a balance of everything you mentioned in my opinion, these traits are all a must.. With the exception of the mottle...
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2008 2:28 PM
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Windjammer Loft
476 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:33 PM
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Why not the mottle???? Since color has "NO" I repeat "NO" bearing on how a bird rolls...........And as for your commint about.... "again if the best bird you raise this year could be the nest mate to the worst bird you raise this year, why breed from birds with faults"? Thats where the term CULL gets put into play. Culls do pop up...
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 8:05 AM
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Lipper
20 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:40 PM
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Excuse me, I said with the exception of the mottle..What this means is that color or patterns do not matter..Are we ok now...
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Oldfart
883 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:40 PM
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Hey all, I asked for and received input on a very simple question. Could a young bird change its wing posistion as it matures? Also, even if it did not would anyone,meaning you, consider using it in the stock loft? Assuming this is it's only fault. That speed,style,frequency,and ease of handling were spot on. Can a fault be corrected?
Tony, gave what I consider a realistic answer, Seppi, reaffirmed what I already thought, young bird give it a chance. I could care less what is thought of me, but most on this list know the family of birds I'm working with. I've kept them pure and I'm here to tell you they spin ass's off! YES!!! I'm backyard, but if you think that makes my passion less, you are wrong!
I guess my point is, the question unasked is the only stupid question. But Hell, I'm only a backyarder, what could I possible know or learn?
Thom
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Lipper
21 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:42 PM
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Why the mottle???? Since color has "NO" I repeat "NO" bearing on how a bird rolls...........And as for your commint about.... "again if the best bird you raise this year could be the nest mate to the worst bird you raise this year, why breed from birds with faults? Thats where the term CULL gets put into play. Culls do pop up...
I dont recall making this comment?
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Windjammer Loft
478 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:45 PM
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Lipper.....my misunderstanding...I thought you were excluduing the mottle. You know color has to be enterjected at some point....LOL..
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Lipper
22 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:47 PM
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Thom,
Some of the best birds around are in the backyard, never competition flown. I asked one guy why he wouldn't join the club and fly? He responded that he was to old to jockey for the top perch and could not stand all the cock fighting...
Mike
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Windjammer Loft
479 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:49 PM
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Lipper....I guess you said it for me too.. That's the way I feel
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Lipper
23 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:50 PM
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Lipper.....my misunderstanding...I thought you were excluduing the mottle. You know color has to be enterjected at some point....LOL..
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
You thought I was Including the mottle..Excluding means to leave out...Just mixed up a couple words no big deal..
Mike
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Windjammer Loft
480 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:54 PM
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Okay.............Iam cool with that.----------
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Lipper
24 posts
Nov 13, 2008
2:55 PM
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Ive been at this competition game for along time, you should go to a PKC money hunt, WOW! You want to see nasty here it is...
Seriously though competition is just that competing..It can bring the worst and the best out in a person. People put every ounce of their being into it so it becomes very personal and very territorial in nature.
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fhtfire
1638 posts
Nov 13, 2008
3:30 PM
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Breeding Quality is a no brainer in my book...I feel that quality is the foundation or the base of a top notch bird. With quality....you will find that a faster spin will come into play...Quality is not just wing position...but the overall roll of the bird...the balance...speed...depth and wing position....if you dont have quality you wont have the rest.....90% of my Top quality pigeons are fast, tight, on the deeper end and smooth as silk...why..they are balanced..and balance works hand in hand with quality.
If you have an axle roller..you should never breed from it...this whole post is mute..because NOTHING should enter you stock loft if it does not show you the quality...and the other traits you are looking for....regardless of Pedigree or Breeder Name.....PERIOD.
But I will dabble in your question...none of the above...I would never mate anything but a A or H(leaning toward A) period....an X is a kit bird for life if it is leaning toward A....but a plain old X in my loft is a cull...so it will never get any love in the breeder loft.
As far as mating best to best...that is a no brainer and I agree with Tony.....but you have to realize that Best to Best does not always work....how about saying I am breeding for LUCK>..because anytime you put a pair together....it is hit or miss...but you odds an % go way up when it is best to best....so that is common sense......one must also remember that there are myths...breed deep to shallow and you will get a mid range roller...breed deep to deep and you will get roll downs...breed shallow to shallow etc...that is crap....what a bird does in the air show that it has the genes and has what it takes to make the stock loft.....then you start all over again from square one..that bird now has a clean slate and better produce......and you put that bird on all your stock birds...your best and your worst....and if it produces top quality spinners (even if it is from your worst cock in your stock loft)..and one of those spinners is stock worthy...you try it....regardless of the sire or damn...becasue that bird was passed on the magic....and it may pass it on again....If the bird produces on certain pairs that is still fine....if it produces on all pairs that is something you circle the wagons around....
Scott Campbell says..."the cream always rises to the top"...that is the best quote ever....if you pick your best birds in the air....and breed them...and then pick the best birds year after year...and you find the birds that are giving you the numbers...you will find that most of you stock birds are coming from select breeders and select pairs....then it gets fun...you then start breeding around within that group.......cousins...aunts..uncles..ect....and then when you get one that is distant to your birds and is you best bird of that year...throw that bird in the mix and it will take you to the next lever if it works out...if it doesn't then back up to the fork in the road and go left instead of right.
SO to make a long story short....Quality(I feel)...is the foundation of a good bird...it makes the other pieces fall into place ALOT EASIER...then you pull your best from the air and Breed Best to Best....(no brainer)....and then pick what is best from those ect....discard what is not working even if it is your favorite birds....and dont even look at parents or the "Name" behind the bird until you have made your selection to the stock loft...then you find the birds origin after your selection to help you in your selection of a mate.....and make sure you find what each stock bird passes on...For example...I have a cock..that no matter what I put him on....he adds depth.....and he was not a super deep bird when He flew....Dont look to deep into it..it is not brain surgery...you chase a "NAME" or a "PED"...you may as well chase your own tail
Best to Best...is BEST OVER ALL BIRD>>>SHOWING ALL THE TRAITS YOU DESIRE>>>>
Just remember...Garbage in....garbage out....
Rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2008 3:33 PM
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Spin City USA
107 posts
Nov 13, 2008
3:39 PM
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Lipper, from your writing I can see you are a very wise and diligent breeder. I completely understand every thing that you have written. I raise horses, I have a line bred stud and hand picked four of his cousines to breed him to. I also have four outcross mares that came from good breeding programs that are not related. All this breeding takes time and effort, it does not matter what livestock you are useing.
Every time I put a pair of birds together it is a long term project before I find out how successful that mating was. It really wont be until I can fly some of the 2nd generation babies will I know if I should revisit that particular mateing. Really enjoy your writing.
P.S. For the guys who ask: I would never breed from an axel wing roller,to me that does not show good style. That bird wont even get a score in the club that I fly in. If all the birds are smooth that one would stick out like a sore thumb.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2008 3:48 PM
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Roll Down
34 posts
Nov 13, 2008
4:09 PM
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This is one of the better threads ( in my opinion. )
I hope the newer fanciers read it. Some pretty good info and exchanges. That's why I like this site!
George
"Locked down in Canada."
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Mount Airy Lofts
814 posts
Nov 13, 2008
9:25 PM
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Thom,
There is a reason why the term Young birds is used. Every young bird will go thru a learning phase. Some start out rolling with zero velocity and style. Some come out bumping to never do it again. Then as they mature into the bird they will be, they heat it up to being a very nice spinner. Some never will improve, some will. Some birds mature slower than others. Some families are bred to mature faster.
It is so hard to judge a young bird. Especially one that is 4 to 5 months. All I can say is keep a good eye on the stand outs. Many times, it is the ones that don't stand out in the beginning that blows you away 2 to 3 years later. Nothing like flying a experienced team of Rollers. Hope you will find this joy some day.
Just some thing I have learnt,
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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elopez
1805 posts
Nov 13, 2008
9:47 PM
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"One difference is that on Rollers it's not actually who is winning that has the best quality and fastest birds but birds that break together and are frequent to make points. There are guys that breed for the ultimate speed and style that don't compete that are back yard flyers."
Not sure how true this is, by saying this you are saying that the best quality and fastest birds are being bred by the backyard breeders? It's true that the high scoring kits are frequent and breaking in large groups but in order to still get those high points the quality must also be there. I can't speak for all the competition breeders but I'm sure that most do, I breed for velocity and quality. I'm not going to stock a bird that isn't spinning or has excellent quality, just because it’s frequent. My goal is to get 20 spinners in my kit to compete with. I don't know who or why it is said that competition guys are only breeding for frequency and don't care about the spin? From all of the competition breeders that I know of this is our goals (20 Top quality spinners) The best birds that I have seen have been from those guys that are winning and putting up those big numbers.
To me the competition guys should get the most respect as they always put up the kits to let the world see, vs. ..well you know...
Let’s say if we put in a call today to a top competition breeder and to a top individual breeder, from what I’ve personally heard the top competition breeder will be able to put up some top performers tomorrow and the individual/backyarder will say he doesn't have anything right now...now I say this with all respect to everyone and this is just my opinion.
Now by saying this I'm not saying that the competition breeders have the best birds with perfect quality and excellent speed, just stating that we don't breed for only frequency...
Let me bring up a challenge that was put out a few months ago as an example, where a Kit Competition breeder told an Individual breeder that he will fly against him in the 20 bird kit comp and/or the individual comp and still beat him, the individual breeder stated that he is not ready for any comp. at the moment. The Kit comp Breeder said it could be a match up with the top Kit comp breeders vs. the Top Individual breeders and the Comp breeders are ready to fly whenever, and yet this fly has still not happened... Now I know that it could have just been that individual breeder that was not ready to fly but why wouldn't another individual breeder step up to the challenge? Having a Kit Comp breeder fly in an Individual comp, a fly that the Kit Competitor knows very little about...odds are that the Individual breeder should be able to win if his birds where truly much better.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2008 10:08 PM
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j .wanless
466 posts
Nov 14, 2008
7:37 AM
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hi all
i agree with roll down some really good posts on here.
every roller man should read this .wheather a beginner or an old timer theres something in there for everyone.no need to go + pay for books .when you can browse through this page + learn all you need to know for free.theres too many good posts to pick any individual one out.but ive been flying rollers for nearly 40 years + from the country of thier origin.and i know you never know everything about rollers.but i must say i was quite impressed with a lot of your posts.john from u.k.
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Flipmode
251 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:40 AM
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Man this is a good one!
1.Never breed from an AXLE Winger!
And to get an idea of what "BEST" is I think for starters, its good to get out on the Club/local and Major Flys and watch the kit birds of those who are Kicking Ass!.. Then compare your "BEST" birds to their "BEST"... How do they match up? Did their "BEST" make yours look like boo boo?... Or are your best birds better or on the same level as theirs? You wont know what Best is until you get out and see it firsthand and compare what you got.... And the BEST Overall Quality Individual birds are NOT always flown in the Winning kits!
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2008 8:58 AM
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Lipper
39 posts
Nov 14, 2008
9:49 AM
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I always breed for balance when I decide to try something. If you can get some really decent young that are balanced, you can throw in some hot stuff to try. The balance will usually maintain control over the hot, but you really have to watch the offspring from such crosses. The only way to really advance toward your goal is introduction, or you will just keep reproducing the same old result. It's really not all that difficult to test some hot blood in ones program. It is a must that precautions are in place to ensure any new blood is quarantined, by pen mating and strict record keeping. By just using some commen sense, not rushing, really thinking about what you want, you can get there before long. It is really a lot of interesting to see what you produce, both good and bad..I have noticed some dissention as far as competitors and backyard fliers. I truly believe it takes both groups to really perfect and advance the roller breed. Backyard breeders really dont care about what others think, and are more apt to take some chances. I am pretty sure a lot of rollers in competion today got the start by these folks. The competition boys take some of these and then critique them to what is needed to win in competition in a certain era. Again just my thoughts...
Mike
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Scott
1239 posts
Nov 14, 2008
11:27 AM
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(or you will just keep reproducing the same old result.)
My whole gole is just to reproduce my best.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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smoke747
1385 posts
Nov 14, 2008
11:29 AM
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Select, breed, fly, and select again.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Scott
1240 posts
Nov 14, 2008
11:30 AM
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(Hey all, I asked for and received input on a very simple question. Could a young bird change its wing posistion as it matures? )
They can change to a degree, also can change some depending on condition, or at least give the illusion of such.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1241 posts
Nov 14, 2008
11:58 AM
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(One difference is that on Rollers it's not actually who is winning that has the best quality and fastest birds but birds that break together and are frequent to make points. There are guys that breed for the ultimate speed and style that don't compete that are back yard flyers.)
That is nothing more than a judging problem, and we might as well breed competition tumblers to fly under such judges.
And you are right, good Birminghams won't (can't) break 3-4 times a minute.
Where I do disagree with you is seeing the goods in a backyard flyers yard, never have I seen such,and if there is please let me know and I will go check them out
It isn't impossible or that a few don't have good birds but the effort just isn't there with them year after year,plus the bulk of them like playing with projects,you can only do so many fire drill in your underwear.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2008 1:29 PM
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Scott
1242 posts
Nov 14, 2008
12:23 PM
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(This idea everyone has of flying birds out for 2-3 years before stocking, well I have a problem with it...Here is my problem; I think you would agree that by 12 months a pigeon is an adult. He is born with his special talents, and these should be noticed in his first year...The 2nd and 3rd year he should just be using his intelligence to control his abilities, no more no less)
A bird still has a way to go to polish out where the roll in concerned, in the best the "true" potential doesn't play out until 18 mo or so.
Plus there is much more to learn from the bird as far as how it deals with BOPs , weather, over flys (homing) ect. ect.
At 12 mo old we know very little about the bird as it still has a ways to go to settle into what it actually is.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
1017 posts
Nov 14, 2008
12:56 PM
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Scott and 042 - I agree 100 percent.
Great response Scott!
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155
913 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:04 PM
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good topic
new guys in this hobby WE need to pick up some good info
from this topic it will help in the long run............
keep them coming BIG BOYS...............................
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EVILLOFT'S
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Scott
1244 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:26 PM
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0042, I have several birds in my A-team that have been through many hawk seasons,over flys ect. , there is a reason they are still there that goes beyond thier ability.
In fact I would say that breeding out of those young star boneheads is a problem in that they are not the ones that can survive year after year.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
41 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:31 PM
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A bird still has a way to go to polish out where the roll in concerned, in the best the "true" potential doesn't play out until 18 mo or so.
Plus there is much more to learn from the bird as far as how it deals with BOPs , weather, over flys (homing) ect. ect.
At 12 mo old we know very little about the bird as it still has a ways to go to settle into what it actually is.
I have to disagree with you on this Scott, I am sure by the time a bird is 12 months of age you have seen what your going to get as far as the ability it has. Not much point in waiting another year to see if he goes from a 20 foot spinner to a 22 footer. As far as BOP's, weather, homing etc. these are not traits, but rather learned reactions to ones environment. I dont think these should be included as potential for the breeding loft...Again just my thoughts..
Mike
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Scott
1246 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:41 PM
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Not with my birds Mike, a young bird can't touch the cream of the breed,and the cream isn't coming in the first year.
That isn't to say it takes 18 mo. for a bird to come in either, my birds come in 5 mo or so, some later some earlier.
But the goods of the best are not going to be seen until later,to me a 12 month old bird is showing nothing but good potential,the best will hit another gear in the 2nd and sometimes the 3rd year,and youngbirds cant touch them for quality as they can't handle it physicaly or mentaly,just the nature of the breed is all.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2008 1:45 PM
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j .wanless
469 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:49 PM
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hi all
mike im agreeing with you again better keep that house free lol.scott some of the best rollers ive ever seen have been youngsters less than 12 months old. infact thats what we try to breed for.if i had to wait for over a year to see the best out of them i would get rid of them all.most of my y/b come on the roll quite early + roll very good.but very few show much change as they get older.although you will always get the exceptions.i was visiting hiennie biker earlier in the year + was explaining to him we in middlesbrough u.k. breed for style + speed .and when they start to roll as babies they roll as good as our old birds.and certainly my own birds give me very few problems.so why wait for 2 years if they have rolled as good as babies as they are at 12 months.theyre not going to change.its all about knowing your family of birds.
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smoke747
1394 posts
Nov 14, 2008
1:49 PM
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I agree that a bird should be flown at least 2 seasons but it's tuff. I lost 2 birds this year that were 3 yrs old that I was considering for stock. Now what? I start all over,only to let this happen again? At that rate I'll never progress.The alternative is to stock from the nest, which I have had some success but I do not recomend it. So what would you tell a new flyer in this situation?
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Velo99
1905 posts
Nov 14, 2008
2:47 PM
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OK guys
I have seen a lot of good input. I feel I should inject mine as well. Roller breeders are a pretty focused bunch for the most part. I feel the most successful fanciers are the most focused on their perception of the "perfect" bird.
Wing position is a product of the kinetics of the bird and centrifugal force. As the bird pumps thru the roll,how far he is physically able or wants to reach behind his head determines the wing position to a degree. His flexibility and physical condition also play a part. These are things he recieves thru his genetic makeup,sometimes desire can make up for lacking in the perfect physical makeup. You can go as deep into it as you want to,but a little introspection is good for the soul. Some are born to spin and some are born to boil.
James Turner said "Good rollers dont always make good breeders and good breeders dont always make good rollers.
as well as ...There is a difference between a roller and a spinner.Are you breeding rollers or spinners?"
You gotta be honest with yourself and not just spouting the rhetoric of the standards and message boards. The proof is plain for you to see everytime you put your birds up.
jmho
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2008 2:54 PM
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Scott
1247 posts
Nov 14, 2008
3:36 PM
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John, I find that when they are "too" good and young that they are the ones that don't last past the first year, at least with my birds.
I also get good birds that are within the first year, but the best of the best are yet to come, and like I said in an a earlier post there is much for a pigeon to proove out over time.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Flipmode
259 posts
Nov 14, 2008
5:03 PM
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Hey Smoke747, Thats our biggest problem down here. We are kinda forced to play Russian Roulette with potential stock birds. Do you stock em at 9 mos? Do you stock em at 16mos? No im gonna stock em at 24mos... And on the last day you are to make that decision BAAMMMM the Falcon knocks the SH$t out of em!... 24mos gone down the tube. That hurts... With my birds they gotta be cranking by their 180th day in the air. If one shows its arse nicely for 90 consecutive more days after that then he/she is in the stock pen to be tested as a breeder... I've waited that long 18mos before and watched the bop wax that arse on the 17th mo.! I wont wait another 18mos again.
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Mount Airy Lofts
817 posts
Nov 14, 2008
10:48 PM
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Scott,
That is what I have found to hold true over here as well.
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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katyroller
318 posts
Nov 15, 2008
8:24 AM
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When you tell someone to breed best to best, you need to take a couple minutes and explain what you believe constitutes "best". Many look at "best" as simply the fastest, tightest, deepest or most frequent rolling bird in the kit. I believe that there is alot more to consider besides performance. I look at character, confirmation, feather quality, kitting and performance. In my family I tend to rate performance last because I find that if a bird has the other listed qualities, the performance will be there. I also feel that you have to determine what constitutes "best" for the family of birds you are working with. What is desirable in my family may not be desirable in all families.
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katyroller
320 posts
Nov 15, 2008
9:11 AM
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0042, I took your advice and REREAD all the different posts. Sorry, I didn't realize the title "Maintaining Quality" was in reference to a different thread about wing positioning. I also noticed that other confused souls mentioned not stocking yearlings. I am in agreeance with them because at least in my family I don't see a accurate picture of what I am looking for in the stock loft, from a yearling.
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