ezeedad
911 posts
Jan 13, 2009
12:17 PM
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Bill Pensom said the following.....
"..... while my views regarding color are my own, I feel it would be doing the fancy and the breed an injustice if encouragement was not extended to those fanciers who choose to cultivate those rich colored and gaily marked birds which have been so highly esteemed in the past. By all means let us maintain variety in color and markings. The glamour of the Birmingham Roller is probably the reason we have such a large number of adherents."
Just food for thought....
Paul Gomez
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-mannyfresh- spins
86 posts
Jan 13, 2009
1:21 PM
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good 2 kno he said dat..not that I specifaically would breed 4 color..but its nice 2 see the different varietys..
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-mannyfresh- spins
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Spin City USA
167 posts
Jan 13, 2009
8:14 PM
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Hey Paul, how many people are breeding for color and dont admit it. If I go into a loft and see 90% of any color or bald heads,ect,you name it, the person is a color breeder. That is ok if that is what they want to do. Who am I to dictate what a person should or shouldnt do with his pigeons. The only exception I see would be if you are following the roll and you end up with a predominate color, even then you can get white flights and badges of that color. I like to see a varity of colors and markings in my birds,in some ways it helps me to follow the roll in the family. I know a lot of people that have culled birds because of the white flights or the bald head. I know I dont like to breed from Torts and maybe I should. I have a good one in my kit and I always find a reason not to breed it. It is 3yrs old and I bred it,so the color is in the family. So in some sense we are all color breeders to some extent,nothing exotic,just in your basic colors.
Did Pensom mention if his color views were evolving or did they never change?
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 8:24 PM
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George R.
1298 posts
Jan 13, 2009
10:30 PM
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while my views regarding color are my own, I feel it would be doing the fancy and the breed an injustice if encouragement was not extended to those fanciers who choose to cultivate those rich colored and gaily marked birds which have been so highly esteemed in the past. By all means let us maintain variety in color and markings. The glamour of the Birmingham Roller is probably the reason we have such a large number of adherents."
nowhere in that statment did Pensom say to cross to a Ice pigeon Or a West of England or Serbian highflyer or any other Breed to get the Color.
George
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Bill C
163 posts
Jan 13, 2009
10:39 PM
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Pensom also said you cannot breed for performance and the show pen in the same birds. In regard to breeding the colored birds. He probalby said that before the duel purpose rollers was being developed. He did change his mind on several things. Like ", I am now convinced it is not the feed, you can feed them anything palatable, it is in the birds or it is not.
Have you ever noticed that there are very few guys in the US that have good rolling oriental rollers. Guess why. Because too many oriental guys got into color breeding and most of what is out there is rubish as Bill would put it.
There are so many birds(200+ pigeon varieties)that are just caged birds like fantails or modenas, why take a birmingham roller and go backward in its breeding and ruin what took many generations to accomplish.
I am not saying competiton is the only way. Bill P also said that frequent tumbling birds would ruin the birmingham roller also. There are some who just want frequency and that is a sure way to a dead end road also.
I find most guys I know really want quality performing rollers at 80% to 20% who want a pretty bird.
I also dont consider breeding a re-red or badge into some checks that are getting stiff, color breeding. There is a focus on bring out the roll more frequentily and the objective is a reasonable one for some. Plus he would use a good bird for the stock loft that was a performace bred badge to get there. But to put a bird with another bird just to get a certain color with no regard to performance is what I consider color breeding. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 10:46 PM
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Scott
1421 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:16 AM
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He is simply stating that if you take your eye off of the ball and let anything play into your breedings other than performance (various projects come to mind) than you will go backwards , it is nothing more than common sence here.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1764 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:30 AM
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Jay, (spin city)
I have to disagree with your post brother...here is the reason...You said Bald heads and different colors is a color breeder....My stock loft has Bald Heads, Badges, Lavender, Grizzle, Tort, Mottle, Mealy, Red Check, Blue Bar, Blue Check, Black....that is a rainbow..and I DO NOT breed for color.....
I think some get confused with color and color...now you can have colorful pigeons that is not a color breeder...to most of us...a color breeder is a breeder that brought in other breeds to get a certain color that is not a "normal" color for Rollers...like the colors I mentioned above. Color breeders will put two birds together to get a certain color regardless of performance....that is a color breeder.
Pensom is talking about colors within the breed...that it is ok to have the markings....and it is ok to have color...but like Scott said..dont drop the ball...and I am sure he is not saying bring in another breed to make a new color..I myeself enjoy my strain of rollers bacause they come in many different colors..but they just happened to pop out that way..I never put a pair of pigeons to get a certain color.
So..to make a long story short...a true color breeder puts birds together based on color not performance....a true color breeder will bring other breeds to get a certain color and try and breed the roll back into the breed.....Pensom says 100 times in his book to follow the roll....follow performance...dont breed from inferior pigeons etc etc...he mentions color as a way of saying..dont disrespect the guys doing color...to each his own.....and dont drop the ball....the fact is..you put pigeons together based on color....then you will lose ground...
But I agree with Pensom...To each his own....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ezeedad
912 posts
Jan 14, 2009
3:43 PM
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George,
" nowhere in that statment did Pensom say to cross to a Ice pigeon Or a West of England or Serbian highflyer or any other Breed to get the Color."
Of course he didn't say to... It is too bad that he isn't around to say what he thought about those who did things like that.
Paul G
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ezeedad
913 posts
Jan 14, 2009
3:45 PM
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Jay,
"in some sense we are all color breeders to some extent,nothing exotic,just in your basic colors."
That is an interesting point. That if a breeder is in any way swayed by color in the selection of their breeders, then they are in a sense a color breeder.
I got the quote from his book, not from an early article.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2009 3:58 PM
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ezeedad
914 posts
Jan 14, 2009
3:55 PM
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Bill C.
"Pensom also said you cannot breed for performance and the show pen in the same birds."
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that Pensom thought that the show pen is an excellent tool for the evaluation of rollers. However, he also said that there were very few people who were actually qualified to be judges because of the difficulty of the task.
He even said that a judge should use pencil and paper in his evaluation process. I have never seen this being done...
Paul G
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ezeedad
915 posts
Jan 14, 2009
4:02 PM
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Scott and Paul the firefighter....
I get your points... but Pensom was not apologizing for those who choose to breed for color... He was saying that those breeders should be encouraged to do that. And he even went as far as to say that it would be doing the fancy and breed an injustice not to encourage them...
That was a very, very strong statement...
Paul G
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toronto15
1 post
Jan 14, 2009
5:17 PM
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I,m new to the Birmingham roller scene. I like all types of pigeons, even the street plugs bring a smile to my face, though I certainly wouldn,t want a loft full of them. Until I started reading Tonys site I wasn,t even aware that these birds were judged in flying competitions,just like Homers are judged in competitions. I know that colour has nothing to do with the athletic ability of a racing Homer. Many of the Flyers critized and teased me something terrible when I showed up on shipping night with a grizzle hen mixed in with my blue checks and bars.My friend and mentor, who was sixty years my senior, told me as long I felt this bird felt right and was in top notch shape to ignore the ridicule.(Grizzles were few and far between in this club in the seventies,as were mealys and reds.) I didn,t win that race but made a respectful showing with all my birds and that grizzle placed much better than any others thought it would,consistenly.What has peaked my interest in the Birmingham roller is that this sport seems to be challenging,rewarding and difficult.I could count the number of people on one hand that I would let near my lofts,whether racing season or not.I,m looking forward to getting out to see and learn,until then I,m reading as many of these threads as I can.From what I,ve learned so far is that both Homers and Birmingham Rollers are athletes,so I,m guessing colour doesn,t make any difference,unless your a Hawk.
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wishiwon2
117 posts
Jan 14, 2009
5:19 PM
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Hey guys,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but the man is dead. I mean no disrespect to him, but why should I value his opinion on color any more than other men who are living and breeding/raising/flying excellent stock, in fact the best in the world. Sure he is an icon for fanciers in the US, he was the first and was very good at it, but I dont believe his opinion should have any more weight than the winning breeders of today ...
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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viper
50 posts
Jan 14, 2009
5:36 PM
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Well said Jon I was thinking the same thing.Blake
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ezeedad
916 posts
Jan 14, 2009
6:07 PM
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Toronto,
That is a great first post....
Paul G
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gotspin7
2198 posts
Jan 14, 2009
8:00 PM
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Hey guys there is nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box, but do not fall of the box...HEHEHE! Like Scott said keep your eye on the ball.
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Sal Ortiz
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Bill C
164 posts
Jan 14, 2009
9:01 PM
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Welcome to the site toranto, its guys like you that keep the performance forefront in our heads because if people did not speak out and give oppinions or debate the color issue guys would not know that the only short cut to developing good rollers is to get the best you see out there flying in the sky!. Glad you like a challenge. This sport,... is a sport and a whole lot of nice guys and exciting kits to watch. What state do you live in. Just curious. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2009 9:03 PM
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Ballrollers
1636 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:53 AM
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"....and I am sure he is not saying bring in another breed to make a new color....."
Referring to the above statement, I don't think anyone can presume to know how Pensom would feel about any issue today, within the context of today's birds and today's level of competition. I would challenge that statement with one of my own about WHP.... "I am sure that he would say that if the quality of performance is there, some long-distant outcross many decades ago to import a color modifier is irrelevant." Given Pensom's history of outcrossing to an Oriental Roller, it is obvious that he was not a devoted purist as some choose to believe. I don't think he'd give two hoots about the color if he saw it spinning 8-10 yards with speed and quality (matter of fact, I feel certain that he'd be trying to pinch a few for himself!) He was committed to performance, and his only criticism of color is that it could serve as a distraction from breeding for performance, which is true....but again, presuming to know what Pensom would think, on either side of the debate is a fallacy. Like somebody said...the man is long-dead.
JMHO,
Cliff
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
187 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:56 AM
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Cliff, I didn't know that WHP use orientals as an outcross. Interesting.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ballrollers
1638 posts
Jan 15, 2009
9:05 AM
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Joe,
I quoted the reference on another color discussion thread last year. You can look it up and read it for yourself if you are interested. Some guys justify it because he was trying to improve performance. I say, an outcross is an outcross. Personally, I do not condone the practice, today. I waouldn't do it. But neither do I get all bent outta shape about something that occurred in anybody's line of Birmingham Rollers decades ago....Pensom's or anybody else's, as long as they have been bred true since then, and they perform to standard...I am content to judge them in the air...
Cliff
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
188 posts
Jan 15, 2009
9:07 AM
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Agreed
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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ezeedad
917 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:28 AM
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Cliff,
I think you might be pretty much right on the money... Pensom was closer to the roots of the breed and understood how it was created in the first place better than we do. Good posts Cliff...
Paul G
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
123 posts
Jan 15, 2009
10:40 AM
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toronto15- what you felt and looked for in your racing homers is what you should look for in rollers,for Bill Pensom said of the Birmingham Roller it should look and feel like a minuter racing homer.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 10:41 AM
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fhtfire
1766 posts
Jan 15, 2009
11:40 AM
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Ez....Cliff is about the only one that will agree with you when it comes to color.....do you guys have a secret color bird handshake and a decoder ring...LOL...just kidding...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1639 posts
Jan 15, 2009
12:35 PM
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Paul F,
Cute one! LOL! I think it is much more that EZ and myself that feel Performance has a much higher value than a certain color or pigment variation seen on a feather. In fact I know it! The vast majority of flyers do not care about the color of the feathers. It's performance first, except for a few purists who put more stock in the pedigree. The Birmingham Roller standard is more of a performance standard than anything else. Personal preference often guides us in the colors, patterns and factors we choose to breed out of in our quest for true Birmingham Rollers......but only if the performance, quality and depth are there first.
Cliff
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Norm_Knox
269 posts
Jan 15, 2009
12:53 PM
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Man it is so nice to see us all talk about color and not see any profanities and cursing. Paul F., Paul G. and Cliff I will have to agree with you. PERFORMANCE should always come first.
Norm
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N/A Loft
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toronto15
2 posts
Jan 15, 2009
1:07 PM
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Thanks Bill C. I live in the city of Toronto,province of Ontario,neighbors and friends to the north,Canada.P.S. We also have the best baseball team in the American League,The Toronto Blue Jays.LOL.
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Scott
1425 posts
Jan 15, 2009
1:51 PM
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The Birmingham Roller is a breed , period, if it was only about performance there would be no such thing as the so called "rare' color mutts due to cross breeding for color.
And is why you won't see kits of such,it is like a turd floating in the punch bowl just waiting to float up surrounded by deciet and denial, thanks but no thanks,I'll pass on the kool-aid.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 2:53 PM
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Scott
1426 posts
Jan 15, 2009
1:55 PM
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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toronto15
5 posts
Jan 15, 2009
2:38 PM
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Need help. I,ve looked on the search site to find out roughly what period the Birmingham roller evolved as a breed, but can,t see it.
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kcfirl
544 posts
Jan 15, 2009
2:49 PM
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Hi Toronto 15,
Lewis Wright wrote about the Birmingham roller in 1880 and that is the earliest writing I can remember. Based on that, I would say the bird was developed around 1850-1880. Although, the breed continued to progress since then up until the 1930's or so when most agree the bird had reached it's ultimate potential.
Since then there have been changes made by individual breeders, but few profess the birds of today are better, at least not without risking castigation from the Guru's.
Regards,
Ken
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toronto15
6 posts
Jan 15, 2009
3:26 PM
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Thank-You kcfirl.I can understand why the experienced and good flyers must get annoyed when the breed is watered down, instead of progressing.Did the Second World War have any impact on the Birmingham roller. I know the First and Second utilized and promoted the Racing Homer.
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pigeon pete
39 posts
Jan 15, 2009
3:41 PM
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I am confused, must be my age,lol but when did white get promoted to the status of a 'color'?
Anyone who disregards a bird for stock which would otherwise be bred from, (if it had no white), is in some respects a colour breeder.
I breed for performance, but if I use a certain bird that is not the automatic choice on rolling ability, but may be the last of that color in my family of rollers and I want to keep diverse colors and patterns in my family of birds, then that is breeding for the colour. I am guilty!lol If the next generation or so do not produce good rollers of that color then I would have to say goodbye to that colour. Is that colour breeding?
If I deliberately bred a line of grizzles (for example) because they sell better, then that is a bit more dubious. There are degrees of colour breeding and we are entitled to breed what colur we want.
If you think white flights, badges and balds, which predominate in my country are colour birds, then I think you need to redefine your definitions. Many fanciers in the U.S revere WH Pensom, and his writings.
Look at his book and you will see almost 70 illustrations of rollers, but only a dozen look like self colours. The rest are badges balds, whitsides, grizzles, mottles etc. Are they all 'color bred'? of course not.
Pete.
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Scott
1430 posts
Jan 15, 2009
4:05 PM
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(If you think white flights, badges and balds, which predominate in my country are colour birds, then I think you need to redefine your definitions.)
Who would think that Pete ? that kind of thinking would only set a flyer back.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
501 posts
Jan 15, 2009
5:48 PM
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I don't see were the color of the bird makes any difference any more. There are birds of every color that can spin, this is a proven point. Birds of every color can reproduce birds that spin , this is proven. Why do we even discuss this anymore ? Any family of birds can be improved or ruined by the breeder\handler of the family. Fly what you like and get over it, drink your own punch lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 5:50 PM
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ezeedad
918 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:00 PM
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Scott,
color mutts.....like a turd floating in the punch bowl just waiting to float up surrounded by deciet and denial, thanks but no thanks,.....pass on the kool-aid.
You really have a way with words... It's a pleasure reading your posts...
Paul G
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ezeedad
919 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:09 PM
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Pete,
I think Pensom was talking about the badges balds, whitsides, grizzles, mottles you mention as well as the rest of colors that existed at the time he wrote that. I can't speak for him, but I agree with most people who think that he would frown on going ouitside the breed simply to bring in a color.
Paul G
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George R.
1303 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:12 PM
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Scott
Thanks for not sugar coating your description ...
George
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Scott
1432 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:17 PM
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Paul, I think that might have been a poet in a past life.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
920 posts
Jan 15, 2009
7:27 PM
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Paul the Fireman,
I think pensom meant that we should encourage guys like you that have a "stock loft {that} has Bald Heads, Badges, Lavender, Grizzle, Tort, Mottle, Mealy, Red Check, Blue Bar, Blue Check, Black....that is a rainbow." So keep up the good work..!!
Paul G
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Scott
1434 posts
Jan 15, 2009
8:12 PM
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Eze paul, what Pensom wrote had nothing to do with what Pirate Paul is doing, the the context of his message is simple, don't take your eye off of the ball for non- performace related projects,pirate Paul hasn't lost focus in the least.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 8:13 PM
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Spin City USA
168 posts
Jan 15, 2009
11:31 PM
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Firefighter Paul,My bad. I should have made myself clearer on my statement. I have read a lot of your postings,find them to be very informative and in no way am I implying that you are breeding for color. The kinds of breeders I was refering to are trying to breed perfect baldheads,pretty pigeons and such. I have bred baldheads and badges,whitesides,ect. All that color means nothing if they dont perform. I have had people ask me for a particular pigeon because of it's color, they were not interested in the birds performance,or background they wanted the color. I dont like the bird enough to breed it myself,so why pass it on? It is a good kit bird.
I like to see a varity of color. Some times you dont get it,last year I bred mostly dark check from a varity of color birds,I have some pairs sitting now and I am seeing some badges, go figure. Pretty pigeons and color are a bonus if they perform.
I am still keeping notes on the color-characteristics
topic. I mentioned that i have a tort in my Kit that I wont breed from, every time I get one it wants to fly high and will take the kit up or go up by it self. It is a good performer but I have to starve it down for the flys. I have bred three and they are all alike. I dont think this is true in all torts, I have seen some good one at other lofts that were not a problem,so I assume it is in my family. I am still observing and learning.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2009 11:34 PM
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pigeon pete
40 posts
Jan 16, 2009
2:09 AM
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Scott,
without going though all the posts,-- I read that bald heads and white flights could turn up on genuine rolers and he didn't like to breed from grizzle.
I think it was jay? Spinncity.Don't want to be contentious but white flights colour breeding Whaaaa!!!
Pete
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pigeon pete
41 posts
Jan 16, 2009
2:14 AM
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ezze Paul,
you wrote,
I think Pensom was talking about the badges balds, whitsides, grizzles, mottles you mention as well as the rest of colors that existed at the time he wrote that. I can't speak for him, but I agree with most people who think that he would frown on going ouitside the breed simply to bring in a color.
Paul G
I completely aggree.
Pete.
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Ty Coleman
503 posts
Jan 16, 2009
3:39 AM
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From what I have understood, when he saw a bird that would spin the way he liked he would Barter Beg or trade to get it. Do you realy think he traced the background of the bird ? His eye was on performance and wether he could send it over here.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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J_Star
1838 posts
Jan 16, 2009
5:55 AM
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Although I don’t breed for specific colors but maybe I am slow to figure things out (lol). Why in the world Andulusians and Indigos can spin their ass off!! Is it maybe because blue bars and blue checks are in their background! Maybe the Indigo and Andulusians were promoted and no longer a fancy color….Just wondering.
Jay
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Scott
1437 posts
Jan 16, 2009
5:56 AM
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Pete, of course such breeding practices are silly, I don't know of anyone that would fault such birds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1438 posts
Jan 16, 2009
5:58 AM
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Ty,my money says he knew what he was pinching, it was a very small world where the breed is concerned back then and the apples weren't falling far from the tree.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
1139 posts
Jan 16, 2009
6:23 AM
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Scott- Ditto
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2009 6:29 AM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
130 posts
Jan 16, 2009
7:35 AM
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Any idea where the Almond Shortface Tumbler came into the England roller family? I have quotes back to 1676 thru 1892 (Crystal Palace show) This color brings a lot with it, whether or not all of the color was promoted. Is the Almond SF Tumbler in the background of the Birmingham roller? To my history knowledge...it is.
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De Oppresso Liber
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