Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
148 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:46 PM
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----------Before you get all wrapped around the axle..all I am asking for is..."What are the colors" of the "color rollers..mutt birds" so many guys seem to be describing? Honest question..please no BS and gun-smoke..Go on either side..anything other than ______ and ______ is a color roller or list the colors to the best of your ability. Thank you guys and gals. Bruce
De Oppresso Liber
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
149 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:29 PM
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Come on folks..you want to argue all the time about what is a roller and what is a mutt bird..or a "color roller" as you say...give us a straight answer. This is not an argumentive thread..just an honest question..from a fancer of 53 years..What colors are "colored rollers"? Let me help you a bit..perhaps it is anything OTHER than what you have in your loft. Most of the argumentive folks have posted nice pictures of their "favorite" birds...lots of color in 95% of them. Answer my question: What is a color roller? Bruce
De Oppresso Liber
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Scott
1520 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:36 PM
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Here is a crossbred color mutt for you bruce,enjoy,but as many times as you have qouted Turner on this site, my bet says you don't have to look far LOL.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 9:45 PM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
150 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:39 PM
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Come on Scott..I respect your knowledge..don't try to side track the question...LIST THE COLORS !! You and anyone else that has nice discriptive words for "color rollers"...I just want to know if I have any or not. Thanks for your imput. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Scott
1521 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:42 PM
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Bruce, it is anything that is brought in from another breed, check out Turners "genetics" tape.
I don't have the patiance for it right now, if you aren't sure check out Pensoms book that shows the imports
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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KATCHER
19 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:53 PM
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longroller go to some page called slobernockers lofts im not sure on the speling!! they have allot of those types of things over ther!! you will figure it out over ther!! they have all the colors of the rainbow!! belive me i didnt know you cud add all those colors to rollers!!!
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Spin City USA
174 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:59 AM
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Hey KATCHER, I went and checked out that sloberknocker lofts website. It is very informing and like you I did not know there was that many variations of color and patterns. I am not going to worry about it as I have enough on the plate trying to breed good performers,I dont need anything else to focus on it may cause me to drop the ball.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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spinningdemon
222 posts
Jan 24, 2009
5:39 AM
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Only three colors Ash red, Blue,and brown. All other colors are mutations or factors from these three basic colors.
In the roller world Ash red and blue are the colors most often refered to as none color. However some guys call recessive red, dun, lavendar, black, white, grizzle, tort,mealy, silver none color. But grizzle is just as much a modifier as some of the so called color roller. Some folks say that if it was not a color found in the origianal imports it is not a roller color, yet many call yellow and almond none roller colors even though they were included in the first imports.
Now what "First Imports" is an other subject since some do not call any birds imported before the Pensom imports rollers but you and I know that their were rollers in the U.S.A. since the mid 1800's imported from birmingham england.
So to answear your question only 3 colors are real none modified colors ash red, blue, and brown. So if you have any other color including black, dun, lavender, grizzle, tort,recessive red and white you are working with modifiers.
So Scott in Pensoms book their are several modifiers I see red, white, grizzle, tort, black and even ash red dilute.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1522 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:38 AM
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Yes there is Dave,And ?
(So Scott in Pensoms book their are several modifiers I see red, white, grizzle, tort, black and even ash red dilute.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
152 posts
Jan 24, 2009
7:29 AM
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Thank you David..now we are getting somewhere. Anyone else care to imput? What is your list of "color birds"? Don't tell me to go somewhere else. For the past several years this site has had the on-going argument of "color birds" and original Birmingham Rollers..please list the colors or at least some of them that fall into the "color bird" line. Thanks. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Scott
1527 posts
Jan 24, 2009
7:34 AM
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Bruce,do a search,it has been done several times, like I said, look at the import pictures, also go on the English sites.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
153 posts
Jan 24, 2009
7:39 AM
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Scott..I have done the search..very very well..I am quite familiar with other sites that deal with the issue. My point is that I fear others have not..and thus have not the foggest idea what a "color bird" is and are Lemmings following the loudest voice. But it sure is easy to sit behind a key board and raise sand and cause lots of argument with an empty head. I still would like a couple of folks to list some "colors of the color roller"...Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
230 posts
Jan 24, 2009
7:43 AM
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Scott,
What is that awful thing you posted a icture of? Looks like someone dipped its head and neck in a can of paint!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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pigeon pete
78 posts
Jan 24, 2009
8:13 AM
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Hi Bruce,
In my travels aound England, the following colours are regarded as being part of the roller family by the mainstream of the hobby.
Blue check and bar and Black.
Red check and bar and lavender.
Grizzle, tort.
resesive red.
All these colours may have various amounts of white or bronze.
I have never seen a brown.
I have seen birds with dilute being flown in kits, but many fanciers regard these as having had it added from another breed. Yellows were around I am lead to believe in the distant past, but seem to have died out for many many years and now they are back. Make of that what you will. One respected fancier in the North of England is well known for breeding and flying good yellow rollers.It is entirely possble that a breeder or breeder could have been breeding yellows on the quiet for many years, and they have lately been re introduced. As for almonds I never saw or heard of any.
From what I have gleaned from forums such as this, there is a larger colour pallete in the USA.
It is difficult to tell from monochrome photo's but one of the pictures in the Pensom book may be yellow or cream.
From what I have read on the U.S sites, Almonds by way of Orientals, and other breeds and colours were crossed into the old Whittingham strain to Produce the American roller.
If the American roller has been bred back to Birminghams, (and I would be very suprised if it hadn't been done at some time), then this could be why you have more colours in your rollers than we do. Being pragmatic about it, a cross with an American roller which is a roller with BR blood in it anyway, would be a far more acceptable way to put colour into the rollers than using non rolling breeds.
Pete.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 8:15 AM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
154 posts
Jan 24, 2009
9:13 AM
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Thank you Pete..good observations to a "thorney" subject. I wish others would read yours and Davids posts. Albeit your posts will not effect those that like to hear their fingers rattle on the keyboards. (smile)...Thank you again for your post. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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spinningdemon
224 posts
Jan 24, 2009
9:49 AM
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Pete, Thank you for your post. Their is a cream bar in pensoms book wich is a dilute ash red.
Scott,
Yes there is Dave,And ?
(So Scott in Pensoms book their are several modifiers I see red, white, grizzle, tort, black and even ash red dilute.)
I just think that it is cute to hear folks say they do not work with or have modifiers in their flocks of roller pigeons. I do believe now that they just do not know what the color modifiers are that they have in their kit boxs. It is fine but when I get involved in a hobby I want to learn all aspects of it so I can improve in it as quickly as possible. Scott if you have grizzles, torts or mottles in your flock, you are working with color modifiers. I do not know what you have in your flock it is not my place to say if its right or wrong either. I just hope that you are breeding for a personal performance standard, and having lots of fun as well.
Bruce introduced modifiers,
opal, reduced, stencil, pencil,and ice. all of these will affect the color of the pigeon so you can have a red showing opal or a blue showing opal etc the modifiers ar factors that affect the end apperance.A modifier is not a color it is an expresion. just like grizzle can effect a pigeon in many ways such as dark, light,print marked or tort these are all examples of grizzle.
Introduced colors,
Analusian, almond, brown and its dilute kaki (spelling)some say all dilutes are introduced but I do not buy it, since cream, dun, silver and yellow have always been in rollers. If we are using pensoms book as a guide there are illustrations of cream, silver and dun in the book. and in the prior book by the Pensom roller club their are creams and duns as well.
I hope that helps.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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KATCHER
24 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:08 AM
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long roller's question..... What is a "colored roller??? you sound mad wen = you say Don't tell me to go somewhere else. For the past several years this site has had the on-going argument of "color birds" and original Birmingham Rollers..please list the colors or at least some of them that fall into the "color bird" line. Thanks. Bruce!!! well im so sure you know the answer to your question the good example was the picture of the vanilla stick dipped in chocalate roller scott posted!! and all the turner stuff im so sure you are familiar with color birds!! because you sound mad about it like those kids that wer here a few weeks ago!! you say you have 9 familys that sounds like allot of mad science too me ;) and allot of experimenting too meeee !!
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Scott
1530 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:27 AM
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Dave, what on earth are you talking about ?
The breed allready has this within it,the breed has all that Pete described,if you think that I only think that it is only self blue's, you are mistaken.
When color birds are discussed we are talking about those "introduced" by other breeds, and honestly I don't know of anyone that considers delute a color bird.
(Scott if you
have grizzles, torts or mottles in your flock, you are working with color modifiers. I do not know what you have in your flock it is not my place to say if its right or wrong either. I just hope that you are breeding for a personal performance standard, and having lots of fun as well.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 10:29 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
161 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:40 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
How can you claim that the birds coming out of Birmingham are the originals? They came out of either India or Pakistan, I dont remember which...They were brought to England and then gained thier claim to fame in Birmingham...You think we have color you should look at pics. of the original Rollers...Come on guys the first step is to realize and admit to what are B.R.'s really are and where they really originated...
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Scott
1533 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:51 AM
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Pakistan or India ? Not as a developed breed it didn't ,the breed was developed in England.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1534 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:55 AM
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I think it's what they call a pencil.
(Scott,
What is that awful thing you posted a icture of? Looks like someone dipped its head and neck in a can of paint!!)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
163 posts
Jan 24, 2009
10:56 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott I believe the breed was honed not developed..They were already spinning when they arrived...Now unless they introduced some other breed into them creating a mutt that spun better than the original true rollers:)
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Scott
1537 posts
Jan 24, 2009
11:54 AM
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That is interesting Mike, never have I heard that before.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
155 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:06 PM
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Lipper..you have a possibility there..honed..tuned?? I don't think any other breed was added to make them better.
Katcher..Kinda thinking wrong there friend. I do not know the Turner family as well as you think. I do have some..blue bars, black w/f, reds and red bars. I don't think you folks think these as "color birds". And just because I have other familys of birds..I have "Pure" familys of J.L. Smith, Pensom, and Plona's also..papered after the spin test..so don't sell me short as you do not know my environment. I would not be asking the questions that cause the fuss on this sight if I did not think the answer was here. I think there are some very closed minds that will not accept what is not on their property though even though they are outstanding roller fanciers. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
237 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:19 PM
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Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.
Bruce, as I have said and you know, there are only 3 colors in pigeons. Everything else is a modifier. I believe what people refer to as "colored rollers" are birds that exhibit modifiers such as opal, reduced, stencil, pencil, almond etc. Some include indigo in this list but my research indicates indigo was documented in the BR as early as 1934.
Modifiers that are indigenous to BR include grizzle, spread, kite and dilute. Hope this helps answer your question. Regards!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 12:20 PM
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spinningdemon
227 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:30 PM
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Thanks Joe.
I did not know indingo was around that long.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
167 posts
Jan 24, 2009
12:31 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Longroller, I believe anything new is going to be considered outside of acceptable to many. I do believe that there are individuals capable of breeding a roller and another breed together for a certain trait. And then bringing this trait only back to the roller....God created pigeons and God created man..God gave us the ability to take these pigeons and create pigeons that are more suited to our desires and needs as he did with all animals...He has however put into place factors so that we have no choice but to keep each animal to its kind. Man has been breeding animals to fit his needs and desires since the beginning of time..Look at the dog, we have created guard dogs, sled dogs, bird dogs, coondogs etc..100 years from now our rollers will no doubt be different than what they are today..In my opinion if someone has the capability to take a gazzi colored modena, extract the pattern and the color, and put it into rollers that perform and look like the ideal...More power to him..I am not one of these individuals, they are far and few between.
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Scott
1539 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:02 PM
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Joe, I don't know anything about what was here prior to the Pensom imports,sheez who the hell knows what they were doing or breeding.
Supposably reduced was found in some kids loft,yea there's something to hang your hat on LOL.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
239 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:11 PM
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Like you I have no idea what was going on back then. I don't even know what reduced is, I've seen pictures of opal, stencil, pencil, and almond but don't think I've ever seen a live bird that exhibited these factors. The worst I seen was a picture of toy stencil, ugly as hell!! For sure you won't find any of them in WHP's line of birds!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 1:12 PM
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Ty Coleman
524 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:12 PM
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think it's what they call a pencil.
(Scott,
What is that awful thing you posted a icture of? Looks like someone dipped its head and neck in a can of paint!!)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Scott you also forgot to add it's what our friends across the pond refer to as a maggie
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1540 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:13 PM
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No Ty,thats a mutt from another breed,obvious not only by the color.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 1:14 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
240 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:14 PM
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The only maggie I ever saw was "maggies drawers" on the rifle range
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
156 posts
Jan 24, 2009
1:52 PM
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Lipper, Sunflower..thank you..we have a list of colors and a list of "color birds"...That all I was asking. Took us a bit to get there. And just so's nobody thinks otherwise..I only spray paint my birds for identification of which red check did the 40' H style spin, and which one did the 60' A style spin (smile) The white flights are easier to I.D. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Bill from NJ
54 posts
Jan 24, 2009
2:40 PM
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I too am looking to hear from someone who can answer the original question.
I do not want to hear look over here or there, fingers pointing every which way... Just answer the question straight up.
Just say.....
For example #1, anything other than a blue bar, or solid red, etc. is a color bird.
Example #2, if it is a mottle, or grizzle it is a colored bird.
I have been reading absolute BS being passed off as fact for years from complete idiots here.
Now it it time to hear from the self appointed guru's to tell me once and for all just what is and is not considered color.
If you cannot explain clearly, try posting a picture to support your opinion.
Thank you for assisting me in getting an answer to a simple question.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Scott
1542 posts
Jan 24, 2009
2:56 PM
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I too am looking to hear from someone who can answer the original question.
I do not want to hear look over here or there, fingers pointing every which way... Just answer the question straight up.
Just say.....
For example #1, anything other than a blue bar, or solid red, etc. is a color bird.
(Never have I heard or read where anyone claimed this,they would be an idiot to even suggest such a thing ,where on earth did you read this?)
Example #2, if it is a mottle, or grizzle it is a colored bird.
(again, never have I heard or read such a thing, what boneheard said or wrote such ? )
I have been reading absolute BS being passed off as fact for years from complete idiots here.
(what idiots ? are you saying that you read the above here ?)
Now it it time to hear from the self appointed guru's to tell me once and for all just what is and is not considered color.
( it is anything that hasn't been crossed on another breed, and no "mottle, or grizzle ect." are not considered color birds , although many want to confuse the issue by claiming that some think this)
If you cannot explain clearly, try posting a picture to support your opinion.
Thank you for assisting me in getting an answer to a simple question.
(glad I could assist Bill)
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
525 posts
Jan 24, 2009
4:03 PM
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Are bellnecks and baldheads and even mottles considered colored, crossed up mutts”? Because if not, it’s completely a possibility that the particular expression of Pencil that Scott posted could actually be bred for from Pie-Bald markings
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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spinningdemon
228 posts
Jan 24, 2009
5:05 PM
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Scott the reason I mentioned the grizzle thing is because you claim in this statment and others that you do not work with genetics.
"Genetics is about color and nothing else it plays no part what so-ever in breeding better pigeons."
I just wanted you to know if you believe it or not, you practice genetics.
And just so you know the genetic make up of the pigeons you are working with has everything to do with breeding better pigeons.
If genetics played no part you would just throw in a bunch of pigeons in an open loft and you would raise spinners everytime.
Their are 2 lists above of the colors of the originals and added colors and modifiers. I would love to hear from these gurus as well.
Why dont we discuss the genes that really help build spinners.
Are short arm bones a recesive gene?
Are narrow flights a recessive gene?
Etc. Etc. Etc.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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KATCHER
27 posts
Jan 24, 2009
5:34 PM
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Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 5:59 PM
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KATCHER
28 posts
Jan 24, 2009
5:41 PM
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LOL let me try at the list!!! stencil,pencil,pink bar,white bar,milky,Reduced Bronze Indigo,.... any more ????
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Bill from NJ
55 posts
Jan 24, 2009
5:46 PM
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Scott,
I have read many foolish things on many web sites, much foolishness was stated from here also, on many different topics not just this particular one.
I sincerely appreciate your input and answers, e.g. :
"Tell me once and for all just what is and is not considered color".
It is anything that hasn't been crossed on another breed, and no "mottle, or grizzle ect." are not considered color birds , although many want to confuse the issue by claiming that some think this.
Again Sir, I thank you for your expertise and opinions.
I do want to stress, no derogatory comments were ever directed towards you personally.
I am sure you are well aware of the many off the wall "facts" that have been expressed on this site through the years, that you just have to wrap your head with duct tape to keep it from exploding.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Ty Coleman
526 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:04 PM
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WOW Katcher, what a post. 50\50 guys lol fly your pedigrees and be happy correct ? Are you and Scott related ? lol just kidding
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1545 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:04 PM
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Bill,some want you confused, this breed is loaded with beautiful markings without the crossbreeds.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1546 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:07 PM
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"fly your pedigrees "
Ty,pedigrees are nothing more than breeding records, what is your point ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bill from NJ
56 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:15 PM
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Scott,
I agree with you 100%, "some want you confused, this breed is loaded with beautiful markings without the crossbreeds".
Personally, I have two of the oldest families in the U.S.A.
Nothing ever has been "crossed" into either of my families.
Lester Manz Mottles & Russell Harters, if someone has a complaint with these they have their head up their wazoo.
Hence my original post and comment in regards to idiots.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Ty Coleman
527 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:15 PM
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My point is with you guy's if it's not pedigreed from Pensom it's not a roller. You guy's are very quick to discredit any ones birds but your own and it looks to me if you don't have it in your back yard it's not the real deal.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 6:29 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
241 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:24 PM
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Ty, That's a pretty cheap shot from someone who hasn't been in the flying game very long. No one is trying to discredit a judge or anyone else for that matter. Many regard a colored bird as any color that has required another breed to cross with the rollers to produce that factor or pattern. If it floats your boat don't worry, be happy.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ty Coleman
528 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:28 PM
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Joe you are correct and I pulled it as soon as I posted it and proof read it. This topic is the same as all in the past and serves no purpose for me to keep replying to it. Same old same old with no use to anyone. Very much so a waste of my time.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1548 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:31 PM
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Your point is that you don't have a point.
(My point is with you guy's if it's not pedigreed from Pensom it's not a roller. )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bill from NJ
57 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:32 PM
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Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2009 4:19 PM
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Ty Coleman
529 posts
Jan 24, 2009
6:34 PM
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Bill I always enjoy the topics and conversations ive had with you and the roller history you possess, wish you the best my friend. Scott,Bark ! I'm done.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2009 6:39 PM
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