kcfirl
555 posts
Feb 06, 2009
8:54 AM
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Cliff/Scott/LaRon/Glenn/All,
I have enjoyed reading some of the historical stuff on the thread about colors and when they were introduced etc.
It seems to be the real question is, when did the Brimingham roller become a breed? If we can determine this, then we have a good handle on what colors are part of a "True Birmingham Roller" and what are not.
I myself feel the 1884 quote by Lewis Wright about what a Birmingham Roller is as defined by it's aerial performance is really the nest date for defining the beginning of the breed. I would therefore sat that dilute, Almond, and grizzle for example were colors already in the breed along with the main colors of red, blue, and the midifers for check, bar, splash, etc.
I feel others may believe that the breed was actually not established till much later, perhaps in the 1940's when Pensom had already come to the US. Of course many other breeds could and I would dare were crossed into the Birmingham Rollers in the interim, thus the difference of opinion as to what colors constitute a true birmingham roller.
So, to summarize, Scott and LaRon feel the BR was a breed already in 1884, while Cliff and some others perhaps feel it was not actually a defined breed till the 1940's.
The bottom line is this, in reality there is no defined breed since their is no official body that we all recognize that certifies pedigrees such as the AKC. Without such, any discussion of breed is irrelevent and is only an individuals opinion. Even the AKC does not recognize some breeds of dogs that have existed in other countries for hundreds of years being bred pure.
If we could all agree on the start date for the breed, and could all agree on a core stock of birds that are BR's NOW, and could all agree on and form an organization to certify such, then we could have a basis for considuring birds pure or not.
Until then, I will continue to only have BR's in my loft that are from gentlemen who's integrity I have judged to be of the highest caliber in regards to breeding families of birds that are descended, w/o outcrossing from the birds of the late 1800's in Birmingham England.
Best Regards,
Ken Firl
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topnotch uk
231 posts
Feb 06, 2009
8:57 AM
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when they left the UK lollllllllll
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cballlofts
36 posts
Feb 06, 2009
8:58 AM
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kcfirl,
Good post. It's nice to hear about Our Birds without all the BS involved.
Chuck
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0221
49 posts
Feb 06, 2009
9:15 AM
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Will having or knowing when the birmingham roller became a breed, make our rollers any better? I think we are spending alot of time majoring on the minors.
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3757
1176 posts
Feb 06, 2009
9:32 AM
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KC - Great Post and great observations.
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2009 9:33 AM
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spinningdemon
299 posts
Feb 06, 2009
9:54 AM
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Good observations. I beleive that the Birmingham roller was a breed before the 1940,s I have adds from people selling birmingham rollers from 1899. The breed is very young in comparison to other varieties even within the performance varieties.
I think that their is a question as to when it was a breed since their is no standard for the breed. ( And there should not be ) however with other performance breeds a standard can be found wich gives a date as to when that variety became a recogonised breed. ( Also lessening the performance aspect as they turned to show breeds }
I do not beleive that knowing when they became a breed is all to important, since we have made such great strides in their development. Rollers of 1899 were probaly not as good as the ones we have today. I did not live back then but I do know many folks that have had rollers since the 1930's and I have not had one tell me the rollers of yesteryear are better then the ones today. If they were we would all be breeding wrong.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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3757
1177 posts
Feb 06, 2009
9:58 AM
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Birmingham rollers where in America in the 1880's
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j .wanless
625 posts
Feb 06, 2009
10:00 AM
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hi all
ken i have some old pieces from the pigeon + pigeon world.i would like to show you the full page but cant print it so here.s a bit from it.the following article
was written in the high flying guide published in 1890
by mr c.smith of nottingham.he says it was with great pleasure when visiting b/mngham to witness some splendid performances by these birds b/rollers.the kit consisted of long + short rollers mad tumblers spinners + twizzlers.all have thier place in the kit.
the head lines say B/MNGHM ROLLERS 1870-1890.
i also found an article from one of your ex country men will mcrae he says the 1st exports from here to you was in 1932.hope this helps .
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toronto15
29 posts
Feb 06, 2009
10:16 AM
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Is it possible thats theres a breed within the breed? I can only compare these birds to my dogs, some have came from field champions and others from show champions.Same breed,yet the field variety seemed easier and more eager to do what they were originally intended to do.Is there a difference between competition Birmingham Rollers and backyard birmingham Rollers?Glen.
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0221
50 posts
Feb 06, 2009
10:29 AM
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There's a difference between nest mates. Each bird must stand on its own. Pensom said they became birmingham rollers by there quality of performance.the nest mate to a champion could be a common tumbler. We have beat this to death. It won't change.
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Velo99
2052 posts
Feb 06, 2009
10:57 AM
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I am in the 1880`s camp.
I also believe that the BR is simply a specific trait bred West of England Tumbler with a little Dutch tumbler thrown in for good measure.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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3757
1178 posts
Feb 06, 2009
11:08 AM
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j .wanless - The birds that my mate Bill McCrae are speaking of are the pigeons that were sent to Father Schlattmann that are now known as Pensom rollers in America. If you see Bill tell him hello. I have not heard from him in a couple of years.
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toronto15
30 posts
Feb 06, 2009
11:48 AM
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0221, Thanks for the answer.I,m a newcomer to the Birmingham Roller and have been going through the search site to answer my questions. Some are harder to find then others.Hopefully some day I,ll be able to help.Glen.
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BA Rollers
177 posts
Feb 06, 2009
11:57 AM
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Funny thing, you have a junkyard dog from various backgrounds, and at some point someone wants to call it a purebred...lol. Too funny.
The breed is performance based. The breed was defined by the performance, not by its ancestry in any way, shape or form. Therefore our roller forefathers who instituted this 'standard' so to speak, handicapped every roller fancier from that defining moment to present because the breed was not published by its lineage, but rather its performance. You can piss in a kettle and call it tea, but its still piss in a kettle at the end of the day.
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Ballrollers
1727 posts
Feb 06, 2009
12:06 PM
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Guys,
I think I have seen those same ads. Is their any other basis for your opinions about the existance of a breed "Birmingham Roller" in 1880? You may be correct. I based my opinion on Pensom in 1932, in "The Feathered World":
"Seeing that H. Mitchell does not favour the name, British High Flying Performing Tumbler and Roller, and that I am responsible for this suggestion, let me point out that we are not making an alteration, as THE VARIETY HAS NEVER HAD A RECOGNIZED NAME, and the great majority of birds even in Birmingham today do not answer to the description of a true Birmingham (which is a deep roller). They are mostly Tumblers, which is a correct definition of them....I suggest we find a new name for our variety as well..."
So why do you think that Pensom would be trying to name them at this point if they already had a name? And I can't help but wonder why would he have suggested the name British High Flying Performing Tumbler and Roller if they already had a name? Any guesses? It could be that he was separating out the Black Country Rollers at this point in time, trying to differentiate their superior type of performace and giving them a name. In the first article of his in 1929 he refers only to rollers and tumblers and the differences in their performance. In the article above, and other articles of his that I am reading, he describes the vast majority of birds being bred in the 1930s as Tumblers, not rollers, as you could see in my posts on the Indigo thread. In another 1930 article he refers to the Harborne Roller Pigeon Club and the first competitions, but no mention of Birminghams yet. Then in articles in the 1940s he refers to Birmingham Rollers....LaRon, or anyone else.....care to speculate?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2009 12:48 PM
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3757
1179 posts
Feb 06, 2009
1:01 PM
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"It could be that he was separating out the Black Country Rollers at this point in time, trying to differentiate their superior type of performace and giving them a name"
Cliff - This is exactly what my outcome has been through all of the interviews and through the written text.
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2009 1:02 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3066 posts
Feb 06, 2009
1:13 PM
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C'mon now, you can't actually believe that what you read has any basis in fact? Or that you can deduce anything from those old yellowed antiquated writings? After all, they are just opinons and old ones at that. Besides, there are not any tests tests tests. JUST MY OPINION! Which apparently holds as much stink as a load of crap...LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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kcfirl
557 posts
Feb 06, 2009
1:50 PM
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Hi Cliff,
I think the name may noit have been in common usage in the 1880's, however, I beleive the nucleus of the breed had been cast at that point of time based on Lewis Wright's description.
I will also say that if I could find a family of Birmingham rollers that were pink that could spin and prodcue the same, as well as the standard colorerd families, I would be the first in line.
The thing is, when I look at the WC winners over the past 17 years, I don't see too many guys with famlies of birds in non-standard colors.
That makes think that if I want the best performing birds, and I don't have a guarantee of the pedigrees, that maybe I can improve my odds of getting birds that have not been outcrossed by sticking with the basic colors.
But this is just my thinking. I'm certainly not saying that an Andalusion can;t be a good bird, or that there can;t be a good famliy of birds in a different color.
Best Regards,
Ken
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0221
52 posts
Feb 06, 2009
2:15 PM
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Kcfirl,( guaranteed back to what or Who)I would sooner see you fly a kitt of pink rollers than to have a loft full of pedigreed birds that don't roll correctly. Remember, No one breeds 100%, and the pedigrees o=are all the same. Like You said about WC winner's in the last 17 years, how many of those guy's breed open loft. If we like what we have, breed them, fly them, keep the best, kill the rest its the fastest way to the end.
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kcfirl
560 posts
Feb 06, 2009
3:47 PM
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Hi Nick,
as long as we're quoting folks, why not Spurling! LOL
"An advertisement from a James Grist and Sons appeared in the May 1881 issue of 'The Homing Pigeon'.
It read:
"IMPQRTED BIRMINGHAM ROLLER PIGEONS"
"The most interesting little Flying Pigeons living. Can be flown twice a day and remain up hours during which they pass through the most wonderful and marvelous aerial gymnastics at an immense altitude."
In the same issue, it is reported that at the Lancaster, PA show Birmingham Rollers were exhibited under that name by.J.E. Schum, H.G. Hirsch, and C. Lippold.
This early introduction to Birmingham Rollers began to happen to others, and by 1890 Rollers began to become popular. Ohio and Pennsylvania were the leaders in their importation, and it's major early breeding centers. Ohio was definitely more superior over the Pennsylvania center. F.S. Schlicter in Portsmouth, Fred "Grandma" Liebchen and Arthur C. Karp in Cleveland, Richard R. Krupke in Canton, Thompson and Hengle in Akron, Tom Barnum in Berea, and Lienhard and G.E. Wilthew in Cincinatti. "
Ken firl
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Scott
1656 posts
Feb 06, 2009
4:01 PM
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The only ones that debate it are those where they know they were cross bred for color projects ect., so in thier mind lets mongralize the entire breed and even deny it's very existance,it is just a ploy to confuse the new guys,nothing more and nothing less.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2009 4:40 PM
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0221
53 posts
Feb 06, 2009
4:55 PM
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Scott, well said.
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spinningdemon
301 posts
Feb 06, 2009
5:38 PM
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So what I am getting from some of the posts above is,
Birmingham rollers sold and shown under that name as early as 1881. Yet we do not believe there to be any birmingham rollers until the 1930's I do not understand that thinking?
Or are we really saying that their were no Pensom family rollers before 1930's?
Yes they are old writings but that dosent make the seller or exhibiter a lier, does it?
If we are saying no Pensom imports before 1930 fine but to say so rollers from the town of Birmingham before 1930 is way off base.
The only ones that debate are the ones that feel that the Pensom birds are far superior then any of the earlier imports. I admire Pensom birds they rock my boat, they rev my engine, they give me a ------- well you know what I am saying. But I am not able to say they are the only rollers from birmingham. Birmingham Rollers were an established variety almost a hundred years before the Pensom imports.
Crossing to get color, less feathered feet, more feathered feet, long or short tails or whatever has no bearing on this discusion.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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nicksiders
3244 posts
Feb 06, 2009
7:19 PM
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snicker
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
264 posts
Feb 06, 2009
7:58 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Great post Cliff... I am sure I will be happy with my "Mutts" as Scott refers to them.....
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Ballrollers
1731 posts
Feb 06, 2009
8:23 PM
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Thanks, Mike.
Scott,
Getting more performing rollers into the hands of flyers that want performing rollers; rollers that can perform to a high enough standard to earn the title of a "TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER", is NOT mongrelizing the breed. Who, by name, do you know that is cross breeding today?
Cliff
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kcfirl
561 posts
Feb 06, 2009
8:48 PM
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Hi cliff,
I don't mean to color bash. I only meant to say I would go for the best rollers I could find regardless of color and tried to show why I thought that was the case.
Ken
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winwardrollers
118 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:51 AM
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Cliff
Call a Mongrel/mutt what it is...Mongrel.
I had a dog that was one of my favorite ..he was a.. mutt..German short hair..some Border Collie...Great dog...loved the dog...but he was still a mutt.
A lot of.. mongrel Birds.. are being breed out there ...in the name of saving/improving the breed..the experiment birds that don't turn out should be culled..but are usually pasted off to dulite the breed even more. Hard to hang on to the roll..really easy to breed away from it.
Cliff my dog was a great bird dog he..performed to a high standard..but he was still a mutt.
Bwinward
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Alan Bliven
409 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:54 AM
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>>It seems to be the real question is, when did the Brimingham roller become a breed? If we can determine this, then we have a good handle on what colors are part of a "True Birmingham Roller" and what are not.<<
Hi Ken,
This is an erroneous statement. You cannot truthfully claim that all BR's that don't have the same colors at the period of time the breed was created are not "true" Birmingham Rollers. With all due respect this is totally illogical reasoning. This is pigeon breeding. If this statement is true of BR's then there isn't a "true" breed of Pigeon on the face of the earth. Every Pigeon breed has evolved in colors since it's initial creation.
My suggestion for some of the extreme purists in this forum is to get out in the real world of Pigeon breeding and see what it's all about. There's a lot more to it than your little roller box. Read a book, talk with other fanciers of other Pigeon breeds, join an all breeds Pigeon club or a non-roller forum so you don't propagate off-the-wall statements and embarrass yourselves in public.
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Alan
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Alan Bliven
410 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:00 AM
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Bwinward,
Where did you get that stuff? This is Pigeon breeding, it's not dog breeding. All Pigeon breeds are mongrels. All Pigeon breeds have had other breeds introduced into them at one time or another...
I see Scott has been up to his old tricks of twisting your minds with this nonsense. Get out and see what's really going on in the Pigeon world before making a fool of your self in public. Being Scott's parrot won't serve you well in the real world.
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Alan
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George R.
1339 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:05 AM
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"Pigeon breeds have had other breeds introduced into them at one time or another..."
that statement is also correct for dogs Alan.
I think what most are trying to say is .. Once a Breed is established dont Croos breed them again just because thats they way the breed was started.
George
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George R.
1340 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:15 AM
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I may never find out when the Birmingham roller became a Breed .
but I dont think it would be to much trouble to track down the when people started crossing other Breeds to the Birmingham Roller to create rare colored Rollers.
by the way I have seen and owned some rare colored rollers that spin just as good as any roller ever bred.
I really dont care about what color a Bird is I just want to see Spin.
George
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 9:41 AM
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ezeedad
930 posts
Feb 07, 2009
10:03 AM
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It seems to me that ijn the late 1800s there were many strains of rollers in and around the Midlands/ Birmingham area. Also there were many crosses among these families due to the catching and swapping of so many birds and also because of the fact that very few were inbreeding enough to fix the traits of a clear breed.
The type of roller that has been defined by Pensom existed at that time, but it wasn't until better breeding techniques were practiced by breeders such as Bill Richards that the characteristics were refined.
So it depends on how you look at it. You may say that the first birds that spun tight and fast were the first of the breed, or you might say that when the birds were bred to consistently produce spinners, which would be some time later..
It's good to look back at the past so that we can learn from it and apply it to the future.
Paul G
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spinningdemon
305 posts
Feb 07, 2009
10:48 AM
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George, I know of folks that started bringing color to the roller pigeon in the early 1940's here in Utah there were several folks that studied color genitics at the University of Utah one was Gary Gilbert and the other Paul Bradford both men are now enjoying rollers in heaven and both men were highly respected roller breeders.
Dominate opal was in the first baldhead rollers that Norm Drecksel recieved from Farington and he got those birds in 1943 Brown was in the birds he got from Gary Gilbert in 1945. Norm has not added anything since his red badge casperson from bradford in 1945. That bird is why most of norm's baldheads have pearl or orange eyes. He used that red badge Casperson for some tight inbreeding. Again though, color has no meaning on when the breed was recognized.
If you want to know when colors were added, I would say very soon after importation.
George well said "I really dont care about what color a Bird is I just want to see Spin."
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
268 posts
Feb 07, 2009
10:49 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
There is a very high probability that a new strain of roller will emerge in time. This roller although maybe not pure, will meet all existing criteria and exceed the current expectations.
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Spin City USA
180 posts
Feb 07, 2009
12:44 PM
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Bwinward,the discription of your birddog is a good example of what is going on in the roller world. Lets say you took your birddog to a field trial for birddogs and all the bird hunting breeds were represented. By his performance he is named grand champion and does so at all the trials you take him to how long would it take before he and his pups are in demand by those who raise "birddogs". Those who raise such won't care about his pedigree they will either want to breed to him or get some of his pups. What makes him a champion birddog is his performance.
What makes a birmingham is it's performance in the air.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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nicksiders
3251 posts
Feb 07, 2009
2:16 PM
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All breeds of dog have been crossed on its way to establish a specific breed. The same is true with domestic pigeons. Once a breed is established then it should be taboo to cross additional breeds into the established breed and should also be aggresively discouraged. Now we have tumblers who no longer tumble and bird dogs who no longer hunt and it will continue to grow if left un-checked. Performance pigeons should be bred for no other reasons than for the performance. There are many non-performing breeds that can be used for all the genetic modificating.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 2:20 PM
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Scott
1664 posts
Feb 07, 2009
2:33 PM
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Alan,you are a non issue in the world of Birminghams as you are clueless on the breed,your opinion means squat.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 2:35 PM
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Scott
1665 posts
Feb 07, 2009
2:34 PM
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Brad,lets not even pretend that these mutts can stand on thier own,they can't.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
120 posts
Feb 07, 2009
4:27 PM
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Alan,
I think your statement:---
My suggestion for some of the extreme purists in this forum is to get out in the real world of Pigeon breeding and see what it's all about. There's a lot more to it than your little roller box. Read a book, talk with other fanciers of other Pigeon breeds, join an all breeds Pigeon club or a non-roller forum so you don't propagate off-the-wall statements and embarrass yourselves in public.
Well this statement holds true for general pigeon breeding, and guys interested in showing, but this is where most of us part company.
Breeding rollers for specific performance traits is made more difficult if croses are made. The Show roller for example has been improved by crossing with other breds, and good luck to the guys doing it, because they are changing the structure of the bird so that it is more pleasing to their eyes. They have added bulk to the forehead out of all recognition to the show rollers I had 20 years ago.
They can add fantails if they want, as long as they don't confuse them with Birmingham rollers because they have strayed too far away from the Br breed geneticaly, and physicaly. To apply the same principals to the flying B Roller would be a great shame in my opinion, especially after the many decades of work that it has taken to get the breed to it's present state of performance.
The reason there is a strong tendancy by English fanciers to not get involved in the general pigeon culture is wound up in the histort of the breed in this country. Years ago, some of the top BR flyers got involved in the show side of things and started to regularly show their rollers. Many of then still flew the birds and tried to develop dual purpose strains that would do well in both the flying and the show arena.
Actually the birds I started out with were from a dual purpose breeder that had started with pure flying rollers and had breed for looks and performance for almost 20 years, without even an outcross from another roller family, and I must say that he wasn't far off from acheiving his goal. Fanciers with a pure exhibtion background then took up the breed and the pure show roller evolved.
Between that time and the present time (when only a very raw novice may get the wrong type by mistake), there was a cold war between both factions. Eventually the show roller became a pure show bird, and the dual guys realised that as the shape and type of the show winnners had departed too far from the ideal flying type, they too had to give way and admit that it wasn't posible to breed for both show standards and rolling abilities.
When I started with rollers in the Eighties there was a great suspicion, and at times animosity towards anything remotely to do with showing, because of the way it had split the hobby, and so talk of genetics, colour inheritance, shape, eye type, you name it, was frowned upon. If you aksed for instance why we called a red bar a dun, you would be told it's a purely roller term and that would be that. I think it got to the point where most top flyers would hide what knowledge of genetics that they posessed and prefered to act ignorant of such matters.
It is the general opinion amongst flyers that for the roller flyer to enjoy and succed at his chosen hobby he doesn't need to "get out into the real world of pigeon breeding", because we can see what that can lead to.
We are a world to ourselves in many ways. Our culture is the flying spinner, not the show beauty and if we are to maintain the quailties that the BR is famous for we cannot be sidetracked. We have breeding targets and programes, just as you do, they are just different from yours. We are not as you suggest Extremists, but we think we know where our focus must lie.
Pete.
by the way I can and do read books, and I'll talk to anyone about anything not just pigeons, and I'm not worried about embarrasment.To suggest that anyone who is an ardent roller flyer is an ignorant hermit, is a gross insult in my book,(not that I've written one yet,lol
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 4:32 PM
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RodSD
173 posts
Feb 07, 2009
5:23 PM
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I think genetic analysis will confirm or deny any of our statements. I think such analysis may also pinpoint time line when a particular breed started. I think for dogs genetic analysis may have shown that domestication (creation of domestic dogs) may have started in China.
I don't think there is an exact date when a Birmingham rollers came to be, but rather series of years perhaps of breeding and selection. Then when a particular bird showed what we now think as rollers, then people started stating such birds as Rollers. When Pensom came maybe it was those time either the roller is beginning to get established or already have been establish. It is an interesting historical study.
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Ballrollers
1734 posts
Feb 07, 2009
6:24 PM
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Hehehehehe...you can always tell when Scott has reached the end of the line with these debates....When he is out of ammunition, he begins to up the ante with his personal attacks. Next he'll be talking about our mothers! LOL!
Cliff
Very good post, Alan, and right on the money. "All breeds of pigeons are mongrels...created by the crossbreeding of several other breeds." I think you may have hit a nerve, my friend!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 6:24 PM
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Ballrollers
1735 posts
Feb 07, 2009
6:25 PM
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Ken F,
No problem there. In fact, I think most of us would do the same thing....go for the best Rollers regardless of color. That is certainly what I do.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 6:26 PM
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Scott
1666 posts
Feb 07, 2009
7:04 PM
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Cliff,this never was a debate,never, it was nothing more than an exercise exposing color breeders agenda for what it is.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1736 posts
Feb 07, 2009
7:10 PM
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Yep.....you guessed it.....my agenda was to see what Pensom wrote about these issues. And I think most everyone (but you) weighed in with some logical thinking and discussion...You are such a funny little guy when you get mad...LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 7:16 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
274 posts
Feb 07, 2009
7:10 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott, Man I have been wrong all along.. Can I join the purists?
What a marketing scheme.... Kill em all and get some of the Purebreds...
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Spin City USA
181 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:17 PM
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I wonder what DNA testing of the BR's would show? I read somewhere there is a champion roller from the 30's that was stuffed and in a display, if we could take the DNA from it and a sample from some quality birds to day I wonder what it would show us? The technology is there but that may be a can of worms we may not want to open.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Alan Bliven
411 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:59 PM
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Pete,
Color does not matter, even more so in a performance breed than a show breed. If it's pink with purple polka dots, who cares what it's pedigree is 100 generations back as long as it can perform with the best of them. That's the hairs these extremists are splitting.. yes, they split hairs up to 100 generations back or more. They are causing extreme hard feelings and divisions with these extremist attitudes. The author of this post is wanting a pedigree to go back 100 or more generations or it's a mongrel and not worthy to be called a BR. That's extremism. And then to continually and constantly at every opportunity blast other fancier's birds on forums with accusations of being mongrels. There's something mentally wrong with people like this. Most forums would ban them as being trouble making trolls. I doubt they would talk the same way to their faces. It's easy to hide behind a monitor an rip people and their birds. It's harder face to face.
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Alan
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Alan Bliven
412 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:04 PM
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I used to be a loyal supporter of Tony and this forum but because these trolls have had a free hand, I left long ago. Ignorance, hatred, division and prejustuice isn't my cup of tea.
Cliff, I see you are still a witness and a voice of sane reason. Keep up the good work.
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Alan
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Scott
1668 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:17 PM
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B.S Alan, that is all you have ever done is trolled in on the color topics and never post on anything that relates to the breed , Cliff asked who still crossbreeds, well here you go Cliff ,but you allready know that.
You mean shut us up, you hit over here and then run back over to slobbers forum like snivling little girls.
(Most forums would ban them as being trouble making trolls.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 10:29 PM
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