Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
308 posts
Feb 14, 2009
10:44 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I have been reading some posts where birds considered (mutts) cannot keep it together and fall apart. I have one of these mutts in my loft, he is a 94' bird that I got from a flying loft. Now I was able to get him because the breeder had plenty of offspring out of him, and was not sure he was still fertile. Anyway this "mutt" has made it both in the air and the breeding pen for 14 years...
I guess this is another misconception to certain colors by some that can be thrown away.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 2:36 PM
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Scott
1738 posts
Feb 14, 2009
11:55 AM
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You got some old bird out of someone elses loft and you want to proove what ?
Work a line around it and see if it moves you forward, than get back with us in 4-5 years when you know if it has potential or not.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2009 11:59 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
309 posts
Feb 14, 2009
12:22 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott,
It really should not matter who's loft it came from. It must have moved them forward or it would not be here today..
You got some old bird out of someone elses loft and you want to proove what ?
Work a line around it and see if it moves you forward, than get back with us in 4-5 years when you know if it has potential or not.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
310 posts
Feb 14, 2009
12:24 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
311 posts
Feb 14, 2009
12:25 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
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Scott
1739 posts
Feb 14, 2009
1:02 PM
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Mike you just won't know until you know, and at his age it will be hard to find out for sure.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollernewbie
443 posts
Feb 14, 2009
1:31 PM
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nice bird Mike,
what line is he?
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Billy AKA RollerNewbie
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
313 posts
Feb 14, 2009
1:34 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
He is a Hardesty bird.
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rollernewbie
445 posts
Feb 14, 2009
1:38 PM
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oh..nice...
still flying your birds?? just wondering..
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Billy AKA RollerNewbie
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Scott
1740 posts
Feb 14, 2009
1:41 PM
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What is behind 842 ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
314 posts
Feb 14, 2009
2:08 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Thats the great unknown Scott. I was told Carl bought 842 out of the air somewhere and nobody knows what it was out of...
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
282 posts
Feb 14, 2009
4:47 PM
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Hey Mike, Let me guess, you got this bird from Harold Ryan.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
315 posts
Feb 14, 2009
4:56 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
No Joe, He came out Jerry Green and John Miller's lofts..
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RodSD
189 posts
Feb 15, 2009
12:27 AM
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How do you know if this is a mutt? Is it the color of the bird? How do the children perform?
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spinningdemon
347 posts
Feb 15, 2009
7:31 AM
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Just a question and I know I might get a few arrows shot at me with this one LOL.
If the "Comp only Guys" are only concerned with winning a fly, why care if the bird "falls apart" you have already won the fly you have your trophy. Why not breed another round and win another trophy?
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Alohazona
560 posts
Feb 15, 2009
12:57 PM
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David,
Truthfully,the only birds I really enjoy are the one that have been around the longest.Not necessarily for sentimental reasons,but because they are consistant and I consider them to be well bred.To breed for the short term doesn't even make sense,because 1 to 2 years goes quick.David ,there are definetly birds that will hold up, out there,although not in large numbers.Once you find them,[and you will find them],the challenge is, are you, as a flyer, conditioned to hang on to them ,and breed for them.Short term progress is no progress at all, and nothing has been accomplished other than weighting down the rubbish can on pickup day....Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
561 posts
Feb 15, 2009
1:04 PM
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As for that old bird in question above.Trap train him and put his butt in the air,shed some of that stock loft off of him.That's were the true colors will come out.If he turns out good and he's still fertile,he will be ready to some more rounds.It's that easy....Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
562 posts
Feb 15, 2009
1:08 PM
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Nice pedigrees though,one has a boot print on it,what does that tell you,lol....Aloha,Todd
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Bill C
243 posts
Feb 15, 2009
3:49 PM
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Those pedigrees tell a lot. Notice how one side was crossed to checks and blue checks to try and keep roll in the Indigo which has no heritage noted.
Even on the indigo pedigree it is paired to checks.
I just thought it looks like it tells a story of checkers rolling and putting the color bird with something that rolls to try and keep the rollin in the pairings. All I can say is very strange records. Bill C
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
317 posts
Feb 15, 2009
3:50 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Guys,
This is not my foundation cock, I dont have any foundation birds as of today. My plan is to pick the best birds possible out of the three families and go from there. I am able to fly the WC this spring with a mix of the families. As far as this old indigo cock, I am flying some youngsters out of him. These Hardesty birds are the real deal...I just posted him to show that some of these so called "mutts" do indeed stand the test of time...
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
318 posts
Feb 15, 2009
4:03 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Rod,
This bird is not a "mutt" that is just a term the "purists" like to throw around about colored birds...That is why I am always making the joke about "The Little Pink Pigeon That Can" LOL..
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
319 posts
Feb 15, 2009
4:06 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Bill C.,
The reason he was bred to them is because thats all he had to breed him too.. This 842 bird was the only one introduced...So I hope that clears up the strangeness for you...There are many indigo in this family now...
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spinningdemon
356 posts
Feb 16, 2009
5:21 AM
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Todd, it sounds like you are a true roller man. A guy that breeds birds to fit whats best for the birds and in turn is whats best for the breeder. I like your answear and appreciate your comments.
Bill C. Is breeding checks a bad thing?
Is taking what you like in the air and pairing them to the best in the air a bad thing?
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
131 posts
Feb 16, 2009
9:53 AM
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I find it interesting that the pedigree was not finished out after.. indigo.. was introduced. It pretty much shows that the gene pool behind the indigo was worthless and no need to keep track of.
The checks were what the breeder was keeping the color/roll project together with. The Breeder knew what was rolling and what was not.. and breed accordingly.
Is the bird a Mutt?...that's has a easy answer just look at what was presented above.
Put the bird in the air and see what it can do..I have breeders that I put back in the air for testing all the time..if you are afraid of hawks is one thing but don't dare to fly because the bird would roll down is another.
I don't see what you have proved by your post...Is it a pretty bird ...yes...has it or its young proved that they can fly with the best of them over time? Lot of lip serves here lipper.
Have you notice that Tony's birds are of one basic color..it because he has a standard and not playing the game of any thing goes .. cross breeding color patterns and factors into them.
If you like your birds keep them...fly them.. be happy with them.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 1:30 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
321 posts
Feb 16, 2009
10:43 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
sorry to disapoint you bwinward, but this bird is the indigo that hardesty added. the fellow he got the bird from did not know the parentage. hey but you guys keep trying...
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 10:50 AM
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winwardrollers
132 posts
Feb 16, 2009
11:06 AM
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lipper
Is says Carl on the pedigree above... Carl Hardesty..
saw that.
"didn't know the parentage"..that a good one if you think about it..lol
Bwinward
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
322 posts
Feb 16, 2009
2:35 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
lipper
Is says Carl on the pedigree above... Carl Hardesty..
saw that.
"didn't know the parentage"..that a good one if you think about it..lol
Bwinward
Wow you’re really digging for anything to discredit the non-purist...
How about this:
A while back I heard this Winward fellow had some gooood purebred pedigreed rollers. So I give him a call to see about getting a few. I go to his house on a Saturday and he flys a kit for me. They are all the same color, but he has painted some different colors, and has pretty ribbons tied to some others so he can tell them apart. Well I pick 5 birds out of the air 4 of them have different colors of fluorescent paint on them and the 5th one has a pretty “pink’ ribbon tied to it. Now Mr. Winward also tells me he has pedigrees on all of these birds, and for a few more Abe Lincolns I can have them as well….
I get my new rollers home and settle them in for a few weeks, and then I fly them. They are 3 hens and 2 cocks. I really like these pigeons, and decide I want to mate them up and get some young birds. I put 2 pairs together, and leave the oddball hen to herself.
About 2 weeks go by and it is Saturday morning. I ask my wife if she would like to take a drive and get a bite to eat, being the good husband I am. We drive around for a while and decide to stop at “Barney’s Beef & Brew”. I had a big greasy cheeseburger and fries, the Mrs. Had a ham sandwich and chips. We both had a few beers. Anywho, we pick up a six pack for the road and we are off.
We had not traveled far and my wife notices a “garage sale” sign and just has to stop. She is always afraid that someone has better junk than she does at home, so reluctantly I stop. While she is digging threw the costume jewelry and browsing for boxer shorts for me, I notice a pigeon coop out back…. I decide to meander on back for a look see, and there is an older fellow there as well. I walk up and introduce myself, and he shakes my hand and says “my name is Jimmy”. We chat for a while and he tells me that not only does he keep pigeons he keeps rooooller pigeons. I cannot believe my luck! It should be stated here that Jimmy is lacking a few teeth; well actually I counted a total of three that I could see.
I don’t know if Jimmy could smell beer on me or what, but he reached down into an old bucket full of ice and handed me a bottle beer….Anyway Jimmy asked if I wanted to watch his rooollers go? I said yes please, turn em loose…I gotta tell ya he had about every color of the rainbow and man were they something to see in the air…I noticed this bird that reminded me of a dirty paper plate…..No more like a wet-wipe after changing a child’s dirty diaper I am not sure what the color is.. Well anyhow I loved the way the bird performed in the air and had to have him.
I asked Jimmy what it would take to buy the bird expecting some huge amount? Jimmy said “you really want that ugly bird, and sat pondering. He then said, how’s five dollars sound? I said yes I will give you five dollars. I asked Jimmy about the background of this bird, and he told me he really did not know…He went on to say that over the past 40 years he had picked up birds here and there, but was not much for record keeping or pedigrees…
I took the bird home and paired him with the extra hen from Mr. Winward and raised quite a few good birds from this mating….Now years later my pedigrees show a blank spot due to not knowing the background of the cock bird I got from Jimmy. I expect after a few years and many offspring this blank spot in the pedigree will no longer be
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 2:38 PM
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Scott
1745 posts
Feb 16, 2009
3:00 PM
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Not sure what that story is supposed to mean, it does tell me that someone is doing nothing but chasing pigeons and I speculate that wouldn't know a good bird from a cull.
Myself I wouldn't dream of dropping an unknown bird into my family , there is absolutly no purpose in it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
134 posts
Feb 16, 2009
4:16 PM
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Lipper
Have you thought of writing.. Fiction Books?
That's a lot of typing just for nothing.
Sorry your having a bad day.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 4:23 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2504 posts
Feb 16, 2009
4:23 PM
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Mike all you had to say in a few years that blank spot won't be there to see so far back its pedigree it will be..without the longggggggg story ..lol..
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Ralph
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
323 posts
Feb 16, 2009
4:31 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
i was just trying to pull scott back out of the weeds...it worked ....lol
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
283 posts
Feb 16, 2009
4:32 PM
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Mike,
Both Brad and Bill C. are clairvoyant. They have to be because they are capable of drawing definite but ridiculous conclusions from a complete lack of information. The absence of info behind the indigo only indicates an absence of data, nothing more. Total lack of credible evidence of anything else. This is the same type of logic that elected our current POTUS.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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winwardrollers
135 posts
Feb 16, 2009
5:43 PM
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Sun Flower
Do you breed birds that you don't know the parentage of..I bet not..you may miss a bird here and there.. but in general you have a good Idea of parentage.
Carl just didn't go pick any birds to cross with..no good breeder would waste their time doing that.
Lippers Question to start the post with.. draws us to make a conclusion when answering him Sun flower...what do you know more.. what is it that you know..that we don't that will help draw a differant conclusion from the pedigree presented.
Sunflower give us the ..facts
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 8:17 PM
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fhtfire
1798 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:20 PM
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Windward,
I would have to say Yes..that I breed birds that I dont know the parentage of....as a matter of fact..every Mort bird that I got..did not come with a pedigree.....and a couple have no bands...as a matter of fact....two of my best producing hens i just refer to Black Mort Hen on the peds and a blue bar as Orange 69 colored snap on band.
I had no idea of parentage and actually flew some of my Morts out when I got them and pulled them from the air and some I just put on different hens or cocks to see what happens.
The ruby's of course have a full pedigree....so I honestly feel that you have to start somewhere...and if bands and parentage make a bird roll then my hatches this year will have 4 bands on each leg and and parentage on photo paper..LOL...
I guess that I am not a good breeder..because I just picked birds to cross with...because "no good breeder" would pick birds just to cross.
My point is...you have to start somwhere....and I have peds that have missing data on one side or the other...if I breed my 03 Blue bar cock to one of my flashover birds..maybe my 03 cocks great grand bird...then one side will have nothing and the other side will fill the pedigree up....
Some see the cup half full some see it half empty....I am a half full guy...
Some see a pedigree with missing ancestory and it is junk..some see a bird with no band..junk...I see a good bird in front of me...and if it adds a little more spice to my stew..then so be it....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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gotspin7
2247 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:21 PM
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Myself I wouldn't dream of dropping an unknown bird into my family , there is absolutly no purpose in it.
Scott, I could not agree more! Enough said!
Lipper, good luck with your projects, hey you pay the feed bill bro. Later!
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Sal Ortiz
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fhtfire
1799 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:28 PM
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oh...you will find that I am one that goes against the grain...I have bred enough champion animals in my day to know how to breed....I dont follow all the rules...I dont breed super close....and I never will....I follow the roll...I pull birds based on performance not parentage...I NEVER look at the band until I pull the bird for stock...and if is out of my best pair or my worst pair..does not matter....it earned the spot in the stock loft...if it proves itself it stay...if it does not..it will go....if it is half mort/half Ruby, 3/4....1/8 of either...does not matter....but again...I am one that will go against the grain...I have found in the livestock world....to breed champions...you use your gut instinct or your gift to choose...and you see what happens.....I have found that cousins and Great uncles and uncles and great or great great grandparents are the best breeding..but again that is in my loft...but I dont breed close...done inbreed close and dont line breed either...I seem to be doing ok..and I have been going forward and not backwards...
Sometimes you have to look outside the box...and to see the view from outside you have to leave the box..and if the view is shitty...you jump back in the box....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 6:34 PM
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fhtfire
1800 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:33 PM
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How can you guys say there is no purpose to dropping and unknown bird into your family.....sooner or later inbreeders are going to hit the wall...and trust me you cant beat biology and sooner or later you may have to add a drop to the bucket or a little spice to the stew.....but it cant be just any bird....you never know unless you try.
I myself dont see why so many are afraid to try...Pigeons breed like rabbits and you can see the results fast...if it does not work when you choose the left fork....go back to the fork in the road a pick the right fork or stay the course....if you still have your backbone or your original stock...then it is not hard to recover....
I do understand the thinking....but if you see a superbird in the air....and it is something that you are lacking in your loft...you should try it...
When i was breeding livestock..if I saw a Ram, Buck, Bull or whathave you that was a champion...you can bet your left nut that I would try that animal on one of mine....to see what happens...if you dont....you will never know....I was taught by Dr. Joan Dean Rowe...that if you dont check under every stone you will not find the gold nugget hiding underneath..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
285 posts
Feb 16, 2009
7:20 PM
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No Brad, I probably wouldn't add a bird of which I didn't know the parentage but I can see how some one might. While Mike's question might beg for a conclusion you certainly didn't have enough info to draw one. You ask for the facts, there are none presented which would lead to a logical conclusion. Your narrow minded, biased assumption that the blue checks were used to keep the roll coming may have been true or not true. You don't know but you assumed. What if it was the other way around. An void in info is just that. Only goofy logic would try to draw a conclusion from thin air.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 7:29 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
286 posts
Feb 16, 2009
7:28 PM
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Mike,
I do agree with Brad on one thing tho. Why does the bird that Hardesty picked out the the air and didn't know the parentage of have his band on it? Story line doesn't make sense. I'm pretty sure if Carl Hardesty banded it he knew the parentage. Somebody is blowing smoke here.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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winwardrollers
136 posts
Feb 16, 2009
9:44 PM
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Paul
You forget that I live in Morts area. Mort has been to my place many time and I have been to Morteza's.
I have watched his birds evolve over the year's. I have not seen Mort. in a few years now but have come to the conclusion that his family came from My Plona and Scott Campbells (ogden Utah)Norm Reed line. There Morts. Birds he spent the time breeding..but if this is the case.. if I was you I would not care about pedigrees either because You have a good gene pool base.
Sunflower I 'm drawing conclusions with the check in this case..if you were going to work with a color project..you and i both know that we would use our best birds in the project.
I began with my birds by flying them in the air...after some years of flying and breeding ..I came to the conclusion with out any facts that if birds could roll that good they had to have a good line/gene pool behind them..I started digging in to the pedigrees and found.. after the fact.. that the birds were breed.. close for many generations..back to the imports...pedigrees give us a history so that we can breed accordingly to what has worked in the past...it not a guarantee. You can't buy, steal or beg a guaranteed family of super spinner each individually has to learn the art of breeding/flying their own.
If you think I'm stuck on pedigree's you don't know me very well..if you think I find pedigees interesting your..right.
I have all kinds of color patterns and factors in my loft and breed some..some mutts.. each year as well. I have a pretty good Idea what works and what doesn't.. so Sunflower its past experiece that I draw my conclusions with...and birds in the air tell the story.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 11:00 PM
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RodSD
192 posts
Feb 16, 2009
10:30 PM
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I like Paul's philosophy better. It seems more practical. It is simple, too. Let the sky be the judge. All those parentage are probably nothing if the bird can't roll. In homing world, most champions are from crosses. And only 10% perhaps are champion or ace birds.
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winwardrollers
137 posts
Feb 16, 2009
11:22 PM
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Rodsd
Crossbreeding for performance or color patterns and factors? Hybrid vigor works in rollers too.. but you have to have a base family.
bwinward
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
324 posts
Feb 17, 2009
12:45 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
hey joe,
842 was not hardetys band.......
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Scott
1747 posts
Feb 17, 2009
5:55 AM
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These aint goats buddy, and they are prolific, in a very short time even starting with a full bro and sister you could have several different lines drawing further and further apart.
And most that run tight families will run these seperate lines that draw apart for fresh blood down the road if needed.
You have yet to see the conclusion of those crosses as it is too new ,and the same holds true with my own lines although it comes out of exisiting prooven lines, one of the two just might peter out.
I have hit dead ends before , these two lines are the first to keep progressing forward,but I am allways suspect .
(How can you guys say there is no purpose to dropping and unknown bird into your family.....sooner or later inbreeders are going to hit the wall...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2009 10:45 AM
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J_Star
1882 posts
Feb 17, 2009
6:39 AM
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Paul, I follow the same approach. You are not the only odd ball.
Jay
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
288 posts
Feb 17, 2009
10:24 AM
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Brad,
Since Hardesty apparently didn't breed the bird but rather "picked it out of the air" I'm guessing he picked it because of its performance. Why would you pick a non-performing bird out of the air? Therefore, I would say he didn't need to use "the checks were what the breeder was keeping the color/roll project together with" methodology you asserted.
I'm with Scott, I would never plunk an unknown bird into the middle of my family.
Like Scott I have 4 separate and distinct branches of my main family. When I feel I need an "outcross" I use one of the birds from a different branch. I practice close linebreeding and pretzel breeding within the one family. Now I will admit it has taken me over 25 years with this one family to get to that point but it works very well.
Mike is just starting over and trying to develop a family. It will be a number of years before he knows whether he is successful or not and he will have to cull a lot of birds to get to that point.
Paul,
Done correctly there is no "wall" to inbreeding or linebreeding. Just keep moving the family forward. Sometimes progress is slow but it is still progress.
I wish both of you good luck with your birds, enjoy the hobby!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2009 10:29 AM
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winwardrollers
141 posts
Feb 17, 2009
4:30 PM
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Joe
Just took a look at your setup on photo bucket.
Your serious about the birds.. that's a good sized loft. You must pack a paint brush around with you to keep the inside of the kit box looking like it does.
bwinward
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
290 posts
Feb 17, 2009
5:18 PM
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Brad,
Thanks. That picture was taken right after I finished the new loft last spring. The kit boxes don't look quite as clean now that the birds have been in them for 9 months. I will repaint the inside of the kit boxes about once a year as I did in the old loft.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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KATCHER
52 posts
Feb 17, 2009
8:27 PM
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i am with paul on this one!!
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Scott
1750 posts
Feb 17, 2009
8:42 PM
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Pirate, Kenny has been at it for other 30 years with this family that started with 5 related pigeons,me over 10,and the family has prooven itself well, we are still waiting for that inbreeding deppression.
But then like I said the lines taken down different directions become the future out crosses ,and that is the way it works my friend and why the so called inbreeding depression is a mute point.
Scott
(Here..INBREEDING OVER TIME WILL RESULT IN INBREEDING DEPRESSION...that results in health fitness and fertility issues...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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