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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Has This Bird Kept IT Together?
Has This Bird Kept IT Together?
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winwardrollers
142 posts
Feb 17, 2009
10:23 PM
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Inbreeding alone.. will more than likely be disasterous..But inbreeding with SELECTION makes it possible.
A test at the Wister Institue done on white rats for twenty generations of breeding brother and sister together. Miss King SELECTED HER BREEDING STOCK CONSTANTLY FOR ITS VIGOR AND STAMINA. The race of rats were greater than average size, greater fecundity, and greater longevity than the stock with which the experiment began with.
Inbreeding can produce better stock than the original..it is very simple when inbreeding out with the bad and keep the good.
The walls.. you may be refering to are poor feathers, slow growth in the young, not prolific..etc..simple just watch for this and eliminate it and go on..most all walls have doors you just look for the opening..pretty simple.
I did have a pair that I put together and the young matured slowly..size ..feathering. took the pair apart and have not seen much if it since.
You have to realize that I don't breed brother to sister now.. when I started it was an accident. I had no idea of there relationship until after the fact.
Paul you have an eye for rollers so what you have been doing works because of selection. Inbreeding, line breeding,crossbreeding all work depending on what we are after..its just funny that when it comes to inbreeding.. our minds.. think there has to be an end to it some where not always the case.
Selective breeding of plants has produced better all around plants.
Pensom wrote.."Every Bird in the loft has a value, and it is a complete understanding of these values we must have before we can hope to make any decision as to the benenfit we could derive from any certain individual."
also...."The scarcity of good birds lies in a lack of knowledge of the more important detail, or maybe because of a misunderstanding of them."
also...."The fact that first class spinners do exist would imply that where there is one, there must also be another."
The cheetah gene pool was limited and we have the choice of picking.. the best rollers.. and starting from there..it's good to have a good start. It does show problem with inbreeding but from what I read the cheetah are still alive and well.
I see no reason in.. fully/totally inbreeding.. the rollers for a long period of time over time your going to have problems..but with.. inbreeding and mostly linebreeding and selection ..I see no end to the years one can breed.
J leroy Smith convince Pensom of this inbreeding/line breeding years ago by showing him the results of the birds he was breeding.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2009 7:46 AM
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fhtfire
1804 posts
Feb 18, 2009
8:17 AM
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Brad,
I agree with what you said and I think that is what I was trying to say. My point is what true inbreeding is....true inbreeding is REAL close....like Mother Son, Father Daughter, and Brother Sister....and yes it is selective breeding....and yes I know every door can be opened....Maybe my point is that we or some use the terms Hybrid Vigor, Inbreeding....incorrectly...when that is not what they are doing....closely related animals is a form of inbreeding....but if there is one branch sticking out of the tight bred stump...then you just open a door to go on for years......with little or no issues....It is hard to type what I am trying to say...but I think most pigeon guys think if they take some birds that are "closely" related...well what is that...ok lets say this...if you take 5 birds that are cousins, aunts and uncles.....well that is to me a pretty open gene pool within a family....it has branches......you take 5 pigeons...Mother Father, Son, Daughter Daughter...and that is all you have...it is just a matter of time before you shit hits the fan....get my point....you take the first mentioned 5 pigeons.....and again..you have options....
With the fast cats in Africa..yes they are doing fine now.but the worry is that the gene pool is way tight....and mother nature has a way of letting the weak die and the strong survive....inbreeding (real)...will make weak overtime and they will die..the strong will survive and continue to mate....
So I feel we are on the same page...I myself breed back to grand parents.....aunts....uncles and cousins...that is a form of inbreeding but the gene pool is still open enough.....to not get backed into a corner.
Even if you breed Father Daughter...the chances are 25% that you will get the match you are looking for....the other 75% will be your open genes pool to help you keep going.....so you still have a 75% chance that you can keep breeding..but that percentage will get lower as you continue to use the same tree with NO branches.....I think cousins are like 6% chance of producing a complete match or one that will cause and inbreeding issue and It think aunts and uncles are like...12%...because of the percentage laws...that is why some can get away with breeding Real close....for a longer period of time...
A may be as subtle as feather quality and that is enough to want to get rid of that....I think we are on the same page brad.....or are we...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2009 9:31 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
327 posts
Feb 18, 2009
8:29 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Pirate, Kenny has been at it for other 30 years with this family that started with 5 related pigeons,me over 10,and the family has prooven itself well, we are still waiting for that inbreeding deppression.
But then like I said the lines taken down different directions become the future out crosses ,and that is the way it works my friend and why the so called inbreeding depression is a mute point.
Scott
(Here..INBREEDING OVER TIME WILL RESULT IN INBREEDING DEPRESSION...that results in health fitness and fertility issues...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Hey Scott and Paul I agree with both of you to a point.. I agree with Paul that breeding other animals is a harder and a much more expensive challenge than pigeons. I agree with Scott that you can keep a (pure family) going for many, many years with few problems and I have well over 20 years of proof.
Since I believe that all animal breeding falls under the same basic procedure, I am going to make a distinction between competition hounds and competition rollers. I started with a female hound that had it all, she was the foundation for my whole kennel. I am still looking for the hen or cock to start my new roller family. Building a successful competition breeding kennel is much more expensive, more time consuming, and much more work than any pigeon including racing homers. The reasons should be obvious… Scott you are dealing with the (Inbreeding Depression) Paul mentioned in both your kit bird selection and your breeding loft, are you not?
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fhtfire
1805 posts
Feb 18, 2009
8:40 AM
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Scott,
Ok....you can start with 5 related pigeons...how related are the pigeons...did the 5 each have different parents on one side....or were they all cousins...or maybe some were second cousins or great uncles...that is not to tight..you can go for a long time with that.....
or were they all father and son..brother sister....cause if they are the first mentioned you can do a lot with that...by bouncing all around.....that is what I am doing now...most of what I am stocking are coming from just a couple cocks....and a couple hens..anyway.....I am just trying to say that there is a true inbreeding and then inbreeding we use loosely....look at humans....if a dad porked his daughter....everyone would freak out and call that guy a sick bastard and the kid may turn out retared from the mating of the two....now you get kissing cousins or second cousins that may get married...not as frowned upon..why...the gene pool is pretty open..you have different family lines in the mix...
same goes with animals...you may be related but as long as you have 1 branch off the main tree...you should be ok for quite awhile with selective breeding...
I picture the tree or the stump the main tree with no branches...that is your fathers and daughters and brothers sisters...very tight...NO BRANCHES>>....a cousin or aunt or uncle is a branch...not super tight....even getting a father daughter and actually picking out of the 75% (open genes) and not the (25% real close to parents damn near a mactch).....you will poke out a branch.....but we dont know if we are picking from the good % or the evil %.......unless we do a full gene check....so....breeding within a family that has branches is not TRUE inbreeding....breeding with no branches is true inbreeding and you will have Depression......
All kenny had to do...is when he got to close...and GOOD breeders will see it without even knowing it....and put a pair together..that could be a cousin and open it back up again to straighten out certain issues...
I have heard you talk about feather quality within your birds..that you did not like it...or maybe I am thinking of someone else...maybe that is from years of being close.....maybe guys that all of a sudden have birds dying left and right from an "unknown reason"...maybe a little bit of to much inbred jed....and a virus got in and wacked the birds..why...immune system low from in breeding....some are subtle issues when inbreeding...some are not....some get lucky..some dont....I am not saying dont practice it...because I do a form of it myself...I am saying dont count out bringing in a super cock and super hen because you want to keep your inbred family together.....I am saying there is nothing wrong with trying....
And sooner or later YOU WILL get to that point....may be 20 years may be 50.....maybe 30 for Kenny and 15 for you....who knows...but your odds are better if you dont keep it super tight....again..you lock in the good and the bad with super tight....but a good breeder that does inbreed to lock in a trait will usually take another branch off the tree to keep the trait with the gene pool opening up a little bit...
Trust me...I am no dummy...I have been doing this for years with livestock and there is NO DIFFERENCE between pigeons, goats, cats, pheasants, chickens, dogs, horses...if you are breeding to a standard and you are competing.....breeding winners and champions is selective breeding....and inbreeding can be used as a tool...but it IS a double edged sword.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
143 posts
Feb 18, 2009
8:54 AM
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Paul
Were on the same page.. now..I think.(your post #1804)
Very few will truly inbreed-same gereration over long period of time ..most inbreeding talked about on here is really line breeding ..skipping a generation.
Its just like the word "color" in color breeding if not defined when you start creates interesting dicussions.
bwinward
Brad, Brian, Brad, Brian..it's Brad ..I should just type it in all the time.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2009 9:46 AM
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fhtfire
1806 posts
Feb 18, 2009
9:56 AM
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Brad...sorry..at least Brian and Brad start with a B....LOL!!
Ok...I thought we were on the same page....I just think we use terms loosely at times.....but most dont see that they are not truly inbreeding....just picture a balloon....when you start with a bunch of genes or starting out..you have a full balloon...everytime you INBREED...father daughter....you let some air out of the balloon....if you keep breeding Father to daughter then take those offspring and go back to grandfather and then take those offspring and go back to the Mother...and not bring in a branch you will sooner or later have a limp balloon....the genes are narrowing and the air is coming out of the balloon....you are letting genes out like the air....you goal is to keep a little bit of air in the balloon...but if you continue to breed REAl tight..the balloon will go limp...with NO AIR...as soon as you bring a cousin or a branch and put it back to the main base of the tree...all you are doing is puffing a little air back into the balloon....to get you where you want....
So when we find the sweet spot.....with a balloon that is just the right amount of air...that is when you have to blow the balloon back up and let it come back down to where you want it......its like adding a little salt to the stew...adding nitrous boost to the motor....just a dab....if you add to much it will be to salty or to much nitrous and you fry a piston.....what we are trying to do is find the sweet spot.....so an outcross or even a distant relative may be your salt, your nitrous,...your puff of air back into the balloon...
You keep letting air out to far...and you may not be able to blow that balloon back up....anyway...I feel that most outcross or bring in a distant relative and dont even know it...LOL.....
and somtimes the inbreeding depression is subtle and may be something that we cant see.....I often wonder when fanciers say....I lost a bunch of birds for not reason they just died...I have something going through my loft...could it be inbreeding depression...you lost that gene that fought off something that would not kill a normal pigeon...or feather quality.....or how about...man my birds are small now....like dove...well one trait of inbreeding depression is small offspring....again subtle...or babies not growing as fast..or how about....not as many rounds being produced....fertility....and getting your groove on issues can be inbreeding depression....again...roll downs and stiffs are something you see...somtimes we cant see inbreeding depression....how about.....man...my birds just dont look as fit...or they are not reacting to the feeding that I used to do....reactions to Protein's is and inbreeding depression....some of the thing you often hear about could be that...but the fact is...nobody knows....unless you test every bird and find out the genetic make up and if a certain gene has flew the coop so to speak...you will never know...anyway..just my thoughts....
Brad...I am inbreeding to a point..there is not doubt about it..you have to....but I feel that most ad the salt and dont even realize it..even within there own families by going to the furthest branch....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1751 posts
Feb 18, 2009
11:51 AM
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C,mon Pirate stop with the long winded posts,my attention span isn't that long LOL
I reality the long tight families rely on all forms of breeding, inbred,linebred, and them pretzel out to the linebred and bring back in, there is no one method used.
Brad you nailed it in that selection is the key, with some lines you could actualy take them too strong,and some birds/families just can't be truely brought in very tight due to thier is just too much gargage in their gene pool.
Tightly bred families doesn't mean that they and a little inbreeding/linbreeding for a few generations, it takes many many generations to pull the gene pool up and tight.
But also it is a total mute point if the goods don't keep popping to the surface in decent to good percentages.
I've seen some that inbreed just for the sake of inbreeding due to some bird up and behind in the pedigree , that is like sailing the ocean without navigation.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2009 1:38 PM
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Ballrollers
1767 posts
Feb 18, 2009
1:01 PM
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Lipper,
I would NOT recommend you put that bird back in the kit box. It has probably been many years since he has flown and he is not likely to prove to be a competitive bird again. I would try to get a related bird to breed him to, if possible. Crossing families is the long road home.
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
336 posts
Feb 18, 2009
2:01 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Cliff, I have no intention of putting him back in the kit box. He is currently mated to a niece...I will be crossing families quite a lot here.
Lipper,
I would NOT recommend you put that bird back in the kit box. It has probably been many years since he has flown and he is not likely to prove to be a competitive bird again. I would try to get a related bird to breed him to, if possible. Crossing families is the long road home.
Cliff
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