Built4Speed
231 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:03 PM
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Paul,
AWESOME!!!
Thanks for sharing
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Dale
United Spinners Association
http://builtforspeedrollerlofts.bravehost.com/
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babyshoes
14 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:06 PM
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Now this is something just to awesome , well now the crest problem has been solved Pensom did breed crested birds.
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cardo2s
91 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:21 PM
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Paul, Thanks for sharing in the history of this great hobby. I enjoyed the old pictures, dpf-48k-1750 in the 2nd set of pictures is one tough looking bird.
Hey Capt. when your inside stay low and take the heat,and pray for the truckees to open a hole.
BE SAFE
Cardo Gallegos
LAFD ROLLER CLUB
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fhtfire
1826 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:32 PM
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I am on the truck....so I will cut you a hole!!!...ROck on...One of our student firefighters is with you guys now.....Eric Acevedo
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bob
72 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:32 PM
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Hi Paul great pictures to have, thanks for sharing them with us Bob in Ontario
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2538 posts
Feb 26, 2009
6:50 PM
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XTRA XTRA Nice photos.........
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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kopetsa
40 posts
Feb 26, 2009
7:10 PM
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Great Photos! He bred a bird for show.. huh lol
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spinningdemon
373 posts
Feb 26, 2009
7:21 PM
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Wow!Wow!Wow!Wow!Wow! did I mention wow!
I would say some of the neatest info on the web!
Just love the history just increadible.
Crested birds wow again.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Hector Coya
424 posts
Feb 26, 2009
7:31 PM
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Do you actually think Pensom held back the yellows and said noway an i flying this one,its yellow,but the nestmate i can fly becouse its red self?
Im sure if he had yellows in his property ,they where flying like all the other birds,including his Modenas.
And as far as the crest,ive been saying it for years that its posible for the crest to pop up.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2009 8:46 PM
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3757
1188 posts
Feb 26, 2009
7:38 PM
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Paul - That is awesome. Stan invited me up in 1993 when I visited Bill Patrick and I made a video of some of the same material you have. Those old photo's are wonderful. Thanks again Chan!
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2009 8:13 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2542 posts
Feb 26, 2009
7:52 PM
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Thx for the pic's Paul he does look good for 91..
was there any rollers on his property?..
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Ralph
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cr250
211 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:08 PM
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Great pictures Paul.Thanks for sharing some of that old school stuff.
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cr250
212 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:10 PM
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Thanks to Chan Grover too.
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silent187
441 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:34 PM
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pensom was a G..
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Hector Coya
425 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:45 PM
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Thanks La Ron for corecting me, but where did Chan get the birds that bred that crest?
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
357 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:45 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I for one am honored to own thirty some pure Chandler Grover birds. They are truly the real deal...
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KATCHER
94 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:45 PM
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thanx paul!!!
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donnie james
272 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:47 PM
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hay paul thanks for showing the picture to us and thank chan grover for me to.............donny james
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KATCHER
95 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:51 PM
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hey paul a few questions ??? what happend to chans birds wen did he get rid of them ??? what year was the last year he flew a kit of rollers???
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Bill C
252 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:08 PM
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I dont know where Paul went but Chandler gave the rest of his rollers to a few close friends of his. He still has a few Homers that he flys.
He helped just about everyone in NCRC get a start with rollers. Paul and Chan are like two peas in a pot. I know they will be good friends from here on out.
Seeing all these pictures make the other posts seem a little boring right now. I'll get over it. LOL Most guys here in Norhtern Calif have had Chan do the same with them. Sit down and talk rollers and look at Chans pictures and hear the History he has in his head since he got into rollers. Thank you Chan for letting Paul take some pictures of your pictures. Bill C
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fhtfire
1828 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:18 PM
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He has no rollers left....He gave them away a couple months ago to some select fliers...I think it has been awhile since he flew...because he could not see the birds in the air...
Man..he told so many stories of flying rollers and what He has seen...his philosophy on breeding was exactly like mine....and it was Pensoms same philosophy too....and it appears most of the old timers...
I asked if Pensom Flew the Yellows and he said no..they were only for the show pen..I think he said good ones were few and far in between...but there were some...Chan said something about cream colored rollers being mated to a red and making the yellow but they were weaker..I think that is what he was saying...but I asked specifically about color and did pensom breed for color...and the answer was No..it was performance...He said the changed birds all the time..Plona, Pensom, Smith and some others...and the best birds were crosses..like he said 514 was a cross...anyway....it was a joy to listen to the stories and to look at all the photos...
That was just some of the photos...there were alot more....he told all kinds of stories of him and Pensom hanging out during the war...he said that he would have Grain sent over from the US to feed Pensoms birds...because the grain in England was scarce because of the war...he said him and Pensom would go get ancorns and toast bread and grind it up and feed them to the birds....He talked about giving Pensom some Cigars...and he walked around showing off to his British soldiers that he had Cigars and they did not...he said he made sure to have in sticking out of his pocket.
As far as the Crest...he said that the only time a Crest popped up is when it was to tight...Father Daughter matings with certain pairs...but it was every now and then and they would not breed for the crest at all..There was a squeeker too that had a crest...but they were real small not like a crown..they were just a little top notch....
Lots of photos of birds...beautiful birds...that just looked great and very athletic...HE said that Pensom really did not have his own family because he had so many birds from different lofts....I found it interesting that the old timers did not inbreed a whole lot and if they line bred..they would add an outcross every couple of years....it was just so cool...I have so many more questions to ask and to learn...he is a gold mine of knowledge...the photos were amazing...
he said that he took all the photos and many more..during the war he made friends with a developer in the military and he would machine them camera parts and lense holders in exchange for developing his photos....they were on US military paper..LOL...very cool stuff....It was an honor to be a guest at his house...I am for sure going back for more...no doubt about that....I want to talk more breeding with him...we kind of see it the same way.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1829 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:21 PM
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Bill and thank you for FINALLY taking me over there...LOL....IT was fun...here is a photo of Bill and Chan..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
650 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:25 PM
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Those are some awsome photos Paul. I have alot of memories of Chan. My first birds nearly 30 years ago were from Chan. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Hector Coya
428 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:27 PM
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Thank you Paul,,
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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fhtfire
1830 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:31 PM
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Joe,
He had a photo of you too...you looked like a skinny little kid trying to grow a mustache...LOL...
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
651 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:33 PM
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Probaly because I was. LOL
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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cv rollers
268 posts
Feb 26, 2009
10:10 PM
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thanks for the history lesson sir .thanks Mr.Grover
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RodSD
199 posts
Feb 27, 2009
1:21 AM
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That is awesome! It is like time travel where you get to meet famous people. You may even relive the history. Very nice one Paul for sharing this stuff!
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kj loft
12 posts
Feb 27, 2009
4:06 AM
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very nice photos birds look beautiful.uk.number one bill pensom fan..kev johnstone
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DeepSpinLofts
1191 posts
Feb 27, 2009
5:31 AM
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Wow Paul... those are some very outstanding photos! I finally had an opportunity to see a picture of the famous Ray Perkins. Great job!
In 1982 when I was a teenager, Richard Jaconette shipped me some birds from Southern California. I'm almost certain he stated something about them being from the Perkins family. I enjoyed those birds and crossed them with some Pensoms ordered from Ohio. Boy... oh... boy.., what a magnificently marvelous time I had with those birds in the 80's. Back in the day I was considered an enthusiastic back yard flyer.
....well anyway
Thanks for sharing it was quite enjoyable.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2009 9:20 AM
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Scott
1768 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:33 AM
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Great thread and pictures Paul !
Hector, as you can see they are "peaks" which you will see pop up in some lines, not the Helmut type crests from the obvious crossbreds.
As for the yellows, Joe Borges said the same, he said that Pensom kept them also because they sold well,Joe indicated that Pensom had him cull a box of them , never have I ever seen any in Pensom old line type birds.
Nor have I ever seen a truely good yellow,seen plenty roll,just not a good one, I'm sure there is a exception somewhere though.
As for line breeding/ inbreeding ,if you read Pensoms later writings he hits on it quite heavily as a main breeding principle, in the early days there was a lot of old wives tales associated with it of which he also writes about,no good comes from constant out crossing in the big picture.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2009 8:45 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
867 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:35 AM
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Paul,
I truly enjoyed those photos. Thanks for taking the time to snap shot all of them and posting.
Sweet,
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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fhtfire
1835 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:53 AM
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I also want to add..that when we talk about outcrossing in this thread...we are not talking about taking a TOTALLY different family's into the mix...it is taking the branch furtherst on the Tree within your own family of birds....like a distant relative that carries your blood....that may have a Cock in the Great Great side of your line....hard to explain how Chandler told me...but I am doing it in my loft the way he explains...and most are doing it and dont even realize it...and it is working with me...
He said he tested the father daughter and going back and keeping it real tight...for about 10 years or something with his best pairs...he ended up losing the vigor...the roll...they got stiff....and you had to work it out of them...and lost consistancy and kitting...every now and then he would get an exceptional bird...but in time he started going down hill...and that is called Inbred depression...he said all he had to do was throw a cousin into the mix and bam...he got it all back.....Not talking totally different families....as an outcross..but related families or within distant withing your loft....that is what I have been doing for the last 3 years and it has been working...I have not brought in anything from the outside in 4 years....and really narrowed up my pairs...but I keep jumping back and fourth between the two lines...and then hitting the cousins together...and the cousins are the cream...but that is just me....and if I go to a distant relative...and it does not work...not a big deal...go back to where you started before that....
Chan also stated that Line breeding and Inbreeding was used..but what alot of the big boys back in the day did not tell everyone ..including Pensom...is that they would bring an outcross in every three years or so.....and add just enough to keep it going...and again..with all breeding you do it with caution...and you bring it in to some select pairs...just one bird bred to a couple of pairs can keep you going for another 3 years...or so....so there is alot that I see tha this in writings that is being looked at way to deep...like th color guys quoting Pensom...Now I know the Truth from this living legend..who was THERE and best friends with Pensom....and it appears that some writing were done...but not everything was put into paper..like adding an outcross every 3-5 years on a well inbred family..again..outcross being a distant relative on the same tree...it all makes sense to me..especially when I looked at some of the Ruby Pedigrees.....Most of the Top birds in Tony's strained were crossed back in the day...maybe Tony can explain more....
He really got my gears turning..and I learned so much more just talking with the Chan
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2009 8:55 AM
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fhtfire
1836 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:57 AM
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Scott you are right...they are little peaks not the half crown....and if a crest popped up...that pairs to them were to close...and were not bred from anymore....
And you are right...Yellows were for the show pen and were not top quality pigeons as far as fliers.
rock and ROLL...
Paul
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Scott
1769 posts
Feb 27, 2009
9:08 AM
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What does this mean ? a peak and crest are two diffent things, if they were one in the same there would be no breeds carrying the peaks
(and if a crest popped up...that pairs to them were to close...and were not bred from anymore....)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1770 posts
Feb 27, 2009
9:10 AM
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All that this means is that they were birds that were used couldn't hold up to it or that the selection of what was used was wrong.
(He said he tested the father daughter and going back and keeping it real tight...for about 10 years or something with his best pairs...he ended up losing the vigor...the roll...they got stiff....and you had to work it out of them...and lost consistancy and kitting...)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2009 9:11 AM
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warpspeed
90 posts
Feb 27, 2009
9:57 AM
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thanks for sharing paul awesome. truly a good history lesson for all novice or veteran. hopefully i can have the privelage to met him at the convention.
abel
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Marvin
90 posts
Feb 27, 2009
10:16 AM
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Those are some great photos, chan is a great guy i met him 5 yrs ago and he sure can teach you alot just listen and you will learn. chan sure looks good for 91 yrs young. Thanks fhtfire.
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fhtfire
1838 posts
Feb 27, 2009
2:33 PM
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Hell Scott you got me all confused...peak, top notch..a little nub...not a full on crest...anyway...he just said they did not breed from those....
Oh..and dont shoot the messenger...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1839 posts
Feb 27, 2009
2:34 PM
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Abel,
If you get here early for the convention we will stop by his place....he said he was not going to the convention because it is hard to get around...but we will see..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1774 posts
Feb 27, 2009
2:41 PM
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Niblet head
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Hector Coya
429 posts
Feb 27, 2009
3:14 PM
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Scott,Peak,full crest,half crest,its all the same.
Ive seen Swallows with full crest and some that where very bad crest that where actualy on one side of the birds head,and even a peak crest on birds that are soposeto have a full crest,those are culls the those breeders but they do get them.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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kcfirl
566 posts
Feb 27, 2009
3:19 PM
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Hi Paul,
Chan certainly does believe in crossing completely different families, as long as they are Birmingham rollers. In fact he wrote an article about that I have somewhere.
The idea that he only advocated crossing branches off the same tree is true if you mean any branch off the Birmingham roller tree.
The article was entitled "where did the roll go". In it he explained that after several years of mating his best spinners from the same family, they tended to get infrequent and that an outcross would bring out the roll.
Best Regards,
Ken
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TimP
166 posts
Feb 27, 2009
6:01 PM
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Great Post Paul, these types of posts are my favorite!
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spanky
779 posts
Feb 27, 2009
6:03 PM
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THANKS PAUL. NICE PIX AND GOOD JOB.
SPANKY
SGVS
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winwardrollers
160 posts
Feb 27, 2009
8:05 PM
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Paul
Great pictures and post
After reading the Posts you keep bring up the same subject.
There are pedigrees that show breeding of the pensoms rollers.. we don't have to take it as.. hear say.
These pedigrees show how they actually breed.
Lots of J leroy Smith birds that have tight lineages.
Line/In breeding has many good factor to it. Monte Neible said himself that he wish he would have used a few key bird better looking back..meaning close breeding. When you have a good gene pool use it..don't delute it.
Inbred depression is real..Paul..but who breeds first generation to first generation for year on end..for sure Pensom didn't breed that way..,make sense to what Chan Grover spoke to you about.
Someone breeding off of pedigrees alone will probabaly run in to some form of Inbreeding depression.
Someone Line/Inbreeding with Selective breeding can breed for years and I see no end.
This is the most interesting thing that I have found in regards to Line/Inbreeding...Younger generations improve/better than the original pair...didn't believe it until I tried it. Most Breeders will not be willing to try it for ten years straight..most all are more willing to continue to chase a.. ressive gene for roll.. around by continual cross breeding..now you have it now you don't game.
Inbreeding, Linebreeding, crossbreeding the crossbreeding you define above all work. I use some of each and have for years but if I want.. a base.. I will always pick a In/line breed bird because it has homozygous genes. Homozygous gene are.. bad and good..you as a breeder can choose..Selective Breeding..what good traits you want..simple..if you know what to look for.. LOL
Again great pictures and post
bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2009 9:55 PM
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winwardrollers
164 posts
Feb 27, 2009
10:01 PM
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Paul
Something interesting as well would be to have Chan go over to your house and watch your birds and get comments from him.
Im guessing.. He is getting to old for travel and my not see as well now days.
bwinward
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
358 posts
Feb 28, 2009
5:38 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Paul, this is the only thread that I have ever printed. Thanks for a great post.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
359 posts
Feb 28, 2009
5:41 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Ken, I would really like to read this aricle if you know where it came from...Thanks
Hi Paul,
Chan certainly does believe in crossing completely different families, as long as they are Birmingham rollers. In fact he wrote an article about that I have somewhere.
The idea that he only advocated crossing branches off the same tree is true if you mean any branch off the Birmingham roller tree.
The article was entitled "where did the roll go". In it he explained that after several years of mating his best spinners from the same family, they tended to get infrequent and that an outcross would bring out the roll.
Best Regards,
Ken
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Windjammer Loft
736 posts
Feb 28, 2009
6:03 AM
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Great history lesson Paul...Thanks for sharing
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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