Ty Coleman
562 posts
Mar 04, 2009
3:19 PM
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If I breed 20 blue check cocks to 20 blue lace hens[reduced] and pull the 20 cock offspring from them which should all be blue check and I won the NBRC National 20 bird fly with them would a kit of colored rollers have won ??
Simple question.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
563 posts
Mar 04, 2009
3:23 PM
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Or for anyone else who would like to respond.Not just Scott
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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KATCHER
128 posts
Mar 04, 2009
3:42 PM
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fly on ty!!!
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LittleJohn
24 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:04 PM
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I'd say yeah...
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Ty Coleman
564 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:34 PM
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Pete and Cannspin I would be scared to answer you on that one lol I think the only safe answer their would be move out of the hills to the city.lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Canspinners
301 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:53 PM
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You guys are missing the point the emphasis is on "if" so basically someone is telling you something such as and "If we did this" and" if we did that" when you get fed-up with the ifs You say
"Yeah and if my aunt had nuts I would call her my uncle"...so this means the answer is no.
Ty with all respect just trying to have some fun glad to see you are laughing it off as well.
Excuse my ignorance but what are you getting at with your question I am missing your point
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Ty Coleman
567 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:57 PM
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I have several points that I will make. It is up to everyone form their own opinion but I will give you the genetic breakdown. Reduced is a sexlinked gene, this meaning the blue check cock offspring from the original mating will produce reduced hens mated to any other hen regardless of the hens color without another dominant gene present. The statement that the real BR is coming through over the mongrel gene has been made, you decide ? The statement that a kit of colored rollers has never one a major fly has been made because there were blue check, blue bar, black, and Rec Red were in the kit, there are many sexlinked genes that can be hidden for one or more generation, brown,reduced,rec opal, barless, and many more. You decide . And on a side note the 11 bird being called a kiddie fly realy sticks in my craw. And the reference to Nathaniel's age bothers me. I am proud of this young man, He has won a fly that some of the great's have won and this should not be discredited one bit. If it is so easy put your kit's up against his. What scared the young man might make you look bad with all of the big talk some of you are doing ??????
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 5:29 PM
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Canspinners
302 posts
Mar 04, 2009
6:34 PM
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Ok ty obiously some other comments were made on this site that upset you , I have not been on the site for a while so maybe it is best that Scott whoever he is answers your Question .
I appreciate the detail about the genetics but the colour relation ship to spinning is way over my head
Scott answer tys question
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donnie james
297 posts
Mar 04, 2009
6:43 PM
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ty if their all blue checks their not color birds their all blue checks carring reduced gene that's a easy question.................donny james
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Bill C
266 posts
Mar 04, 2009
7:19 PM
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Ty, First of all you are putting in a hypothetical situation that has not happened nor would it probably be possible due to the life span of man on earth and getting enough good hens (reduced lace ) to breed to some decent quality checks. It will take a life time to do that.
Bill Pensom said you cannot breed for color (show pen) and performance at the same time. This still holds true today. If you have the time that turner had and his knowlege you can get a few good birds.
The real issue is for the new guy. What is going to give you birds that perform? Do you want pretty birds to sit in a cage or birds to fly and spin?
There are 200 to 400 pigoen breeds and most are not as the originals because of color breeding for the show pen. Like Orientals, Portagese tumblers and Uzbecks and many many more. THAT IS THE REAL ISSUE, TY! Just my opinion LOL. Bill C
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 7:41 PM
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Bill C
267 posts
Mar 04, 2009
7:21 PM
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Ty, Hypothetical, " assumed without proof to be true or to exist. Bill
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 7:22 PM
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JMUrbon
661 posts
Mar 04, 2009
7:32 PM
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Anybody that knows me knows that I dont do color. But what Ty is saying here gives me reason to at least put it into a hypothetical situation. Its the not knowing that gets peaple in trouble. Not knowing that there is reduced behind a bird and just calling it a blue check is why this could be construed as a kit of blue checks. By the way what in the heck is reduced? I know rec red and dilute. Not sure about any of the other stuff. I am not sure how long it would take to get a kit of all blue checks carrying reduced but I doubt I will see it in my life time. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3294 posts
Mar 04, 2009
7:54 PM
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It could never happen, but hypothetically and if nobody was aware that they were crosses the blue check kit won the event as blue checks. It would not be a color bird kit. Now, hypothetically, if everyone knew it was a kit of crosses then a color bird kit would win the event. So what is your point?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Ty Coleman
569 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:05 PM
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My point is that when people have won several events flying birds that came from colored lofts. That a kit of color birds won. I have a blue check cock that is a champion by anyones definition, he is one of my foundation birds, he is bred out of 2 Andy's and he reproduces between 70 to 100% acording to the hen he is paired with. He is a colored bird all day long in my book. But to you guy's he is a blue check.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
570 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:17 PM
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Mr. Urban, with 1 pair out of my stock loft I could take my blue check cock and mate it to a reduced hen and produce 1 blue check cock every sitting. Let's say five per year. So 4 years to produce the 20. But you have to considerso many cull's and the hawks with one pair it would most likely not be possible as a 8 to 10 year old bird would be over the hill. But if you had 3 to 4 pairings in the same manor it could be acomplished in 2 years to build the kit. However winning the 20 bird is who ever has the best conditions, that could take a lifetime lol
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Bill C
268 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:18 PM
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Hi Nick, Good to see ya again. I think the point is ,"we can breed for color and have good birds and they can roll just as good as anything out there".
But I agree with Joe that, " Not knowing that gets people into trouble". Several years wasted or decieved on what they were buying. Just look at egg bid!
I got into rollers 7 years ago. I knew absolutely nothing about these birds. My wife wanted a computer to take college classes since she had to quit work with two boys in day care. It wasn't worth her working for $10 an hour.
So I thought what am I going to do with this computer? I searched out gardening and pigeons. The first person I contacted was Ken Easley who told me to call Dave Henderson. So I did and Dave gave me phone numbers for Dwight, Harold and Ken Firl. Dave and I have been friends ever since. So also with the other guys. Ken took me around to see the local kits fly and I went to the NCRC BQ and auction and got into birds.
What if I had found egg-bid first??? I was determined to get me some rollers. I would rather have birds from a guy who actually flys the birds and has chosen them from a performance perspective instead of fancy colorations. I like the Badges and grizzles and think blue bars and blacks are pretty but I do not breed just for that. Red checks and blacks will dominate my birds in the future.
Give Paul fullerton time, he might end up with alot of red checks. It doesn't matter what you start with, you pull the best you have and that will eventually dictate your birds. So blue laced reduced will not survive in the performanced based blood lines of today. The competiton is too tuff for fluffy color to make it. Bill C
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Ty Coleman
571 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:22 PM
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Bill , thanks for thumping Webster,lol Just because you have never seen a reduced hen spin to or above the BR standard does not mean they don't exist. If you ever get to Georgia look me up I will show you some in the air.I would be willing to bet you have never seen your heart pump blood through your body, but I bet you it does.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 8:23 PM
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Ty Coleman
572 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:25 PM
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Nick my point is many are quick to discredit a kit of color birds because they only see the basic colors.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ty Coleman
573 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:31 PM
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Bill you had a top notch post going till you spewed your opinion.{ So blue laced reduced will not survive in the performanced based blood lines of today. The competiton is too tuff for fluffy color to make it. Bill C }
I bought 2 kit's of pedigreed stiffs Pensom line. The guy who sold these to me is no better than the guy offering performance bred colored stiff's. There are colored spinners though, the same as pedigreed spinners.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Bill C
269 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:40 PM
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Hi Ty, Thanks for offering me to come by. That in and of itself says alot. I repect that. I wish you luck with flying in the big flies this year. I have my work cut out for me too considering the company I'm in here in Sacto area.
I do believe a reduced lace bird can roll. But I am just a firm believer in performance. I've seen some birds deveoped out of the duel perpose rollers and have several guys who breed for color around me and I do not like their birds at all.
Maybe one day I will see it diffent? I am stuck with rollers are meant to fly in the sky. I just see so many birds that have lost the roll in all the tubling breeds and for what? The show pen. I just hope you see my point as I am trying to look beyond the color issue, and then what would I be looking at "A BIRD IN THE AIR" see, That is just the way I have been educated on and continue to due so. Thanks again for the invite. If I can take a year off and travel the US in an RV I will stop by. ALmost went to Georgia when my wife and I went to FLorida for vacation. If only I had know you then, I might never have taken the long drive down to the FLorida Keys and gotten lost in Miami on the way back to Orlando at night. (wife has aunt and uncle in Georgia) they sent us Pecans for Christmas. Bill C
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 9:35 PM
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mr.b.j
159 posts
Mar 04, 2009
11:00 PM
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do some people even no what color birdz are??? blue chks/ r just blue chks/........
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MR.BJ USRC
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3757
1194 posts
Mar 05, 2009
4:09 AM
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Ty - I hear people make this statement all of the time about Pensom and basically you got ripped off and it had nothing to do with Pensom.
Pensom Pedigree pushed rollers suck - Bill what are Jaconettes. All of the original guys he recieved his birds from called them Pensom rollers. They were not mongrolized but went back to the imports. Look at what Richard use to say Perkins, Smith, Espinoza, etc all Pensom birds. But I understand your point about pushed.
There is a guy right now who claimes he has birds from my friend Herb Sparkes and it is total __S. Now, young guys will buy this stuff and blame it on Herb when he had nothing to do with a bold face lie. I guareentee you in the future 016 and all of the other numbers that people know are going to have someone do the same thing. One guy got pissed at me because he had an Almond and said it was pure Bob Scott. I ask him did you ever meet bob or see his birds or the people who have his line. The answer was know to all three. Bob did not have andulusians, Almonds etc but people want to make a buck. That is it. I have giving away more pigeons than I have sold for a feed bag and to drag Pensoms name on guys who are rip off artist is a shame. The simple answer is the guy was a rip off artist in my opinion. I also know guys have got ripped off in the name of Jaconette and a other names as well.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 4:21 AM
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Ty Coleman
574 posts
Mar 05, 2009
4:10 AM
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Mr. Urban, I failed to answer your question on reduced. The reduced Gene acts any many ways on different color birds. On a bared bird it lightens the bar, blue bar reduced= greyish blue bird with pastel bar, black bared bird = reduced white bar. On a check pattern it gives the lacing apperance, blue check = blue lace, red check = pink lace. It is a little more complicated than I can explain fully but that is as good as I can explain it.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1784 posts
Mar 05, 2009
6:16 AM
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Ty, why do you have to breed blue checks to your lace ?
As for your so-called Pensom bird, what do you think the color breeders used to put roll on the the mutts.
Kill everything on the property except for your laces and start a breeding program strictly around them, and see where it goes.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 6:21 AM
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Ballrollers
1780 posts
Mar 05, 2009
7:26 AM
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I think what Ty is trying to get at here, is that quality performance is locked into this family of rollers and has little to do with the color of the feathers. I have had this debate with Scott in the past, without resolution. It's not that we HAVE to pair a blue check with a reduced, or indigo or andalusian, but in the process of pairing the best to best in type and performance, we will end up with black on indigo, blue check on reduced, andy on andy, etc. The color of the feather is not the point, except in the consideration of feather quality, and possibly charcter, just as in the pairing of standard-colored rollers. Any of these pairings may produce an indigo or a reduced bird or a black or a blue check carrying reduced or an andy, etc. depending on the modifiers involved with the mating. The point that Ty is making is, do you purists not feel that the blue check that is carrying reduced, or the blue check that is off of an indgo and a black is, in fact, a mutt? It is, indeed, off of the same family, with the same genes, and very likely, itself, to be off of parents that are indigo or andy or reduced, somewhere in its background. Surely you do not, naiively, believe that a blue check off of an indigo or andalusian or a reduced bird, is somehow a throw-back to the "pure" birds that were used to develope this family 20 some odd years ago, and is "pure" strictly because of its color! The point is that the birds in this family; with this type of genetic background have, indeed, been among many Regional wins, National Championship wins, and at several World Cup wins since the 90s. So this is not hypothetical, Bill C. It is factual.
Not to hijack your thread, Ty, but......does any flyer who is committed to performance, choose their kit birds based on COLOR? No. Does any flyer who is committed to performance choose any kit birds that do NOT perform to the BIRMINGHAM ROLLER STANDARD? No. It is a widely held opinion that no other roller/tumbler/pigeon performs to the BIRMINGHAM ROLLER STANDARD ..... consistant enough and with high enough quality to win. Most of those flyers that agree with this opinion, would also agree that birds of any color "THAT WIN" would meet the qualifications to be called...... BIRMINGHAM ROLLER? Could a duck win the NBRC Championship fly? Could a retriever win the NBRC Championship fly? What else could win the NBRC Championship fly BUT a BIRMINGHAM ROLLER? Has anything but a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER ever won the WC or NBRC fly? Of course not.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 8:26 AM
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Scott
1785 posts
Mar 05, 2009
8:40 AM
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What family of birds Cliff ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
193 posts
Mar 05, 2009
8:53 AM
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I'm sorry if my post offended anyone it was meant to be humerous. I didn't realise that the medical term for a pair of ------- was banned off this site, sorry Tony.
Was Canspinners post censored as well? I seem to have missed that one.
My initial reaction was to just say go ahead and win your fly with your birds, and ask the question again afterwards, because as stated earlier, it is a hypowhatif type of question and there are plenty of questions surrounding rollers that are of real interst to the genuine fancier without going into la la land.
But I thought my fisrt post said it a little more lightheartedly, but I was obviously wrong. Living in England I forget that the U.S is more prudish than we are, so again, my mistake.
I think that what many are trying to say is,
that if your were to especially breed a team of blue check that were selectively bred from reduced, or whatever, to either prove a point, or re-invent the wheel, or to decieved the onlookers and judge, then that is your priveledge, but it IS colour breeding.
You are setting out to breed a kit of rollers of a certain colour, with a certain genetic marker, rather than setting out to breed the best rollers.
When you do this you are handicapping yourself, because the quickest way to win a fly is to breed and fly the best rollers, period
Every time you decide to use a particular bird to propagate, retain, or mask a certain colour or patterns then you can be 'diluting' the rolling qualities, and 'reducing' your chances of success.
There are a lot of spurious arguments surrounding the colour issue (thank god we don't have it as any great issue in England). It's like the old soft colour/hard colour argument, I.E if you have a stiff soft colour bird, it is probably bred from a hard colour bird.
Duh, Chase that one round the pan both ways for a bit and you will get nowhere fast,lol
Many top flyers are guilty of colour breeding if the truth be known. Ollie Harris was known to pair up his birds to maintan the most diversity of colour, I have used a roller in the stock loft because it was the last red check in my loft, and I wanted to keep reds and mealies in the family. Did it set me back?
Who knows, the bird was a good roller from a long line of very good rollers and the colour was not one introduced to the breed in living memory.
I had had a very sucesful flyer at my loft, and he couldn't understand why I had paired 2 blue checks together, because that's all I would get out of them.
Many will try and keep a diversity of colour to help identify the birds in the air, but it is usually the last criteria for choosing the pair, not the first.
regards,
Pete
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Scott
1787 posts
Mar 05, 2009
9:01 AM
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But testicle Pete , did you use a sub standard bird in any way shape or form to do so ?
There would be no such thing as a so called "rare" color bird if it was about top shelf pigeons, and that turd in the gene pool is why they have never stood on thier own.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Bill C
272 posts
Mar 05, 2009
9:12 AM
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3757, I know that Jaconettes goes back to Pensom and there are some good birds flying today even in the top 10. ( I just mentioned they look like ) not that the Jacs do not trace back. Infact Tys blue hen reduced will trace back to Pensom on paper. I dont think that is a problem. I'm saying 3757 if you and I are to make a "Blue hen reduced" what do we need to do in order to get one that is good enough to make a kit of 20 of them let alone one of them. Now Ty may not have had to do this since Turner put years of knowlege and experience into making the color thing work for him but the rest are riding on his shirt tail and who knows what else is crossed that wasnt producing in the air to accomplish the next few generations of birds to keep with the colors that are sought after today by a few.
I did not mean to show any disrepect to Pensom, after all I quoted him twice in these posts. But when you talk of Pensom pedigree, I make no apolgy for saying as you have that some are out to make a buck instead of working hard and use integrity when it comes to selling birds.
I never took what Ty said as against Pensom at all. I understood him quite clearly that , "The Guy said..." Anyway these kind of posts are good for the new guy to see a debate and realize that there are some who you cannot trust in the Brimingham roller world. Plus they can see what goes into making a roller and if they want to breed for two or three years only to find out the colored bird was not a good choice for them.
In fact when I meet new guys that want birds to fly I take them to comp guys and see birds, but if they want certain colors then I take them to the guy who has colored birds so he will be happy with them sitting on a perch. BIll C
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 9:22 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2610 posts
Mar 05, 2009
9:19 AM
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Testicle pete lmao...that's the term you should had use Pete...and it would had still been here lol..
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If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 9:22 AM
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3757
1195 posts
Mar 05, 2009
9:23 AM
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Bill - I think we agree. The simple answer is that some guys are rip off artist! Plain and simple.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 9:27 AM
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Bill C
273 posts
Mar 05, 2009
10:57 AM
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I just got a call from a guy in my area who had a conversation about Gene. He knows Gene and likes him as a friend. I have deleted the comment I had made and apologize for the fact that I do not know Gene nor have I ever seen his birds. This was wrong and an ignorant comment by me. I am sorry to the site for getting too wrapped up in naming names in the pedigree issue. I have a call into Gene and will apologize to him personally and hopefully get to come see his birds fly this summer.
I do think each one of us should be truthful in our comments about others and I am no different. Please forgive me. Bill Crider
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 10:59 AM
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3757
1196 posts
Mar 05, 2009
11:00 AM
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Bill - Gene is a PRC member and is a great guy. One of the rip off artist that I am talking about is selling birds in Herbs name but it is not his stock.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2615 posts
Mar 05, 2009
11:01 AM
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-----Hey Bill sometimes we get a slip of the tongue but it takes a real man to admit it..you a good man by me.. -----
If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
177 posts
Mar 05, 2009
11:26 AM
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Bill ( : Your 00000000-K Thanks, JDA
Last Edited by on Mar 07, 2009 7:59 AM
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Ballrollers
1781 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:30 PM
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Scott,
You asked, "What family of birds"? You know the answer to that........But hey, since you asked, take your pick; the man in the mirror is the one who needs to be happy with his birds. With all the families out there, the flyers have a choice. Must we all drive the same car? Live in the same color of house?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1782 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:33 PM
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Bill C.
You said, "In fact when I meet new guys that want birds to fly I take them to comp guys and see birds, but if they want certain colors then I take them to the guy who has colored birds so he will be happy with them sitting on a perch. "
You obviously need to get out to see more kits fly in other areas of the country.
Cliff
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bob
73 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:46 PM
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You know i read this site regularly & do not comment very often, however i am so sick of the colour issue. Why can it not be put to bed.
yours in the hobby Bob in Ontario
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3296 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:57 PM
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bob - I agree. I think the color breeders should just keep it to themselves and on the color genetic sites. We really don't need to see a white bar and other such things. They just keep coming in here to stir up the crap. I have kept off of thier sites for several months now to avoid causing them problems, they need to consider a like turn. There is no place for us to go any more.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 2:00 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
586 posts
Mar 05, 2009
2:32 PM
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Ty,
For me the answer is easy. Your kit of dark checks carrying reduced are trojan horses. They look like normal birmingham rollers on the out side, but are a polluted mongrel mess of crossed up breeds for color on the inside. Most great things, even countrys are destroyed from the inside. It's what you canKt see in the rare colored mongrels that makes them such a dangerous threat to the breed Birmingham roller. Just opinion Ty. Oh, and yes I have seen some rare colored rollers that rolled well. But only a hand full. Most the good rollers from the cross breds are nomal colored. Polluted on the inside not the put side. So if your going to fly 80% normal colored trojan birds carrying crossed in colors. Why not just fly the real deal Birmingham rollers and quit wasting good rollers looking for a couple good rare colored rollers? Just a thought! KGB
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Ty Coleman
575 posts
Mar 05, 2009
6:07 PM
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Kenny, I flew several familys before I found the family I have now. I just recently sent my entire stock loft of [pure] birds to a friend in North Georgia and he will do very well with them. He is a man who will work with the family and pull the gold nuggets that are within it and move them forward. There spin quality was very close to my current mutt family and they had descent depth, the velocity was lacking and only showed in a few birds compared to my mutt's. They were good birds though and I would describe there velocity very close to many Jac familys I have seen, great style but they only have a v6 motor lol I want the big block ! Some guy's like the slower roller with great style and show the hole, I am breeding for the blurred birds becaus ethat is what I like and I will never knock anyone for what they like.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Ballrollers
1783 posts
Mar 05, 2009
6:37 PM
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Ken,
The ignorance and prejudice that you use to attempt to propgate you purist agenda never ceases to amaze me. Based exclusively on incorrect information, rumors and heresay, and petty self-righteousness about YOUR own particular family of birds, your agenda is about as relevant in flying competition rollers today as "eye sign" is.....give it up!
Cliff
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Scott
1788 posts
Mar 06, 2009
6:07 AM
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Ty,time for reality, you havn't had the birds long enough to know what you have or don't have, if you are very lucky you might have a few worth keeping to hone around from what you collected up,the rest is garbage,that is what we "ALL" face like it or not,there aint no free ride and there is nothing easy about these birds.
It will take you years to sort it out,you couple that with those type of birds and you have an extream uphill battle,or you can follow others by breeding tons of birds trying to be competitive as an option.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2009 7:32 AM
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cballlofts
54 posts
Mar 06, 2009
6:28 AM
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Ty,
Yea, When those Mutts slam the ground when landing, It looks like They have a big block ! LOL. Personally, I think it is hard to get a blur, out of a bird with that huge size. JMHO, and LMAO.
Chuck
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
409 posts
Mar 06, 2009
8:36 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Nick,
You guys with the "Pure" birds have not proven to anyone that your birds are indeed "Pure"..You guys all seem to jump at the chance to credit or discredit statements of any kind being made; until it comes to the tough ones..I ask once again prove to me that some of these colors have not been present all along in the BR..Show me clear documentation that these birds are indeed "Pure"..I remember seeing birds in the late 70's and early 80's that we called "gun barrel blue" and "ugly checks"...I now know them as "Andalusion" and "Indigo" respectively...I have heard from some lately that they do not allow others to see their comp. kits up close before flying due to fear of being called a "Color Breeder"..Not signaling you out here Nick; just looking for the truth..
bob - I agree. I think the color breeders should just keep it to themselves and on the color genetic sites. We really don't need to see a white bar and other such things. They just keep coming in here to stir up the crap. I have kept off of thier sites for several months now to avoid causing them problems, they need to consider a like turn. There is no place for us to go any more.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
1790 posts
Mar 06, 2009
8:45 AM
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Mike, you will never make a mark in this sport will you ?
Making excuses for the oddball shit will be your down fall
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1784 posts
Mar 06, 2009
8:56 AM
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Making excuses of any kind can certainly be one's downfall, but not the family of birds that he chooses to work with. One can achieve a relative degree of success in his backyard or in competition, with Pensoms, Turners, or Jaconettes. It is up to each flyer to choose.
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
410 posts
Mar 06, 2009
8:58 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Here we are - this is typical of the "purist" mind set..Never answer the question at hand..But rather make an attack on an others ideals and thoughts...Scott I have had some time to consider you and others like you..I am more than willing to share my conclusions here in a professional manner if you would like..
Mike, you will never make a mark in this sport will you ?
Making excuses for the oddball shit will be your down fall
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1791 posts
Mar 06, 2009
9:17 AM
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Please do mike,Ill be your Huckleberry.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2009 9:19 AM
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toughrollers
46 posts
Mar 06, 2009
9:18 AM
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hey guys ,all of us on this site. enjoy our roller pigeons and thats all they are. PIGEONS. we are not in the parlment for debate. we should all be helping each other,
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