fhtfire
1892 posts
Mar 27, 2009
5:43 PM
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Joe,
I am with you....I bred I think 68 or 70 bird for myself and I had 20 in the B-team and 14 in the A team for 08 and both teams were very strong teams...so that was 34 birds out of 70 birds.....they were all good enough quality and speed wise to be strong team birds.....I pulled 5 for stock...out of the A-team....and added 5 from the B team...then added 5 from the young birds team to the B team and they were doing great too....now that is 40 birds out of 70 that were good enough for the team.....had an overfly and lost 10 or so out of the A-team....then I promoted 10 from the B-Team and the 10 more from the young birds team...now I am at 50 out of 70 that made the teams.....I am not saying that they were all stock quality..but they were all good enough for the team...and I am picky as hell about my birds....
I had couple roll down...and croke...a couple hawk attacks...and I culled two or three for being stiffs....and that is about that....Out of all those birds All I have left right now is 20 in my A-team and 9 in my B-team and half those were 07 and 06 that were hold over birds....
I only bred out of 10 pairs last year....This year I am breeding out of 13 pairs......only because Mort gave me some pairs to breed out of....(His Stock)....and I have a new kit box so I need the birds...to fill the boxes up....but I eliminated my pairs that were no producing the high numbers.....that I like....basically
I like what Scott Says...I circled the wagons around select pairs and bred out of those instead of the shotgun blast approach....I will not go above 4 kits either because I will lose my focus......I think it is a wives tale if someone says that you only get like 10 good birds out of 100....Maybe when you are starting out......I am not lying and Joe Urbon has seen my birds quite often....and it is not impossible to breed a small amount and get a high number of kit quality birds....Now remember ...I am saying kit quality...not stock quality....not all birds are 30 ' rockets...some are fast and shallower..and some are deeper and some are average....but like any good team...you will have your superstars and then your sixth man and then your bench...and the best teams that I have put up...have that....I think a kit full of superstars....may not give you the best kit...to many superstars and the birds are always jockying for top position in the team...to much movement in the team for me..each trying to be the leader...just my thoughts..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 5:47 PM
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fhtfire
1893 posts
Mar 27, 2009
5:53 PM
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Jay,
I think it is possible to have a good year and have two strong teams.....I did it this year with my two teams....My B team beat my A team in the pre-lims and my two teams took first and second.....I will tell you now...both my teams were strong...and if I did not have that overfly...I would be flying two strong teams for the World Cup....they kept getting better and better....and it was the quality..but most of all the teams had chemistry.....My B -team was more active then My A team...but my Ateam had the mature birds that filled the gaps....and kept the team at a slow pace....and they dumped like an old bird team even though over half were young birds...anyway...I dont think it is easy to do...but I think it can be done having two or even three strong teams....with a little luck on your side and finding the select pairs.....Right now my proven breeders do not produce a whole lot of culls...just happened that way....I am on my 4th and 5th generations of crosses and they are still holding it together.....but i do some things in my breeding program....that works for me....like keeping it to cousins and Great Uncles and Grand parents...anyway....just my thoughts..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Dave Szab
248 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:22 PM
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Nick,
I have built my competition team over the years, by moving birds in, taking some out for stock, taking some out of stock and putting them back in the team, moving better team-mates in, and taking poorer team-mates out. My team has a solid core that I am constantly building around. My team consists of birds that are a year old, ranging up to 11 years old. You shouldn't need to breed a new 20 bird kit every year or two, you should be building up that team by adding a few choice birds every year. That is how you build a solid old bird team, that is consistent, and that will work together properly. A team that you know inside and out. The kind of kit that is a joy to own and fly.
Ask yourself a common sense question. Would you rather breed and fly out about 40 youngsters a year and use the top birds out of them to build your team over the years, OR breed 100 to 120 or more youngsters every year, flying out 5 to 6 kits of youngsters to try to overhaul your team every year? The answer is quality NOT quantity, no matter how you look at it.
A large quantity of crap, is just that, a lot of crap. It's also expensive crap, in terms of feed and wasting your valuable time.
Dave
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Scott
1949 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:28 PM
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Dave, great point about the all important "core" to build around , without such there is a hard row to hoe,ho
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3350 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:42 PM
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"Jay points don't impress me in the least when I don't know the judge and what kind of judge they are,and honestly I get real suspicious when the points get goofy like that."
I was one of those goofy judges that scored him 1200 points. Up until I judged his kit the highest scored was in the 290's and I honestly felt that kit was going to be the winner for the region. I could not precieve that anyone was going to do better; a very excellent kit. Then I hit Aubrey's place........he had by far the best kit I have ever stood under bar none. I will stand behind that goofy score until I die. I am going down there again when he flys in the WC and see if he can match that performance.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3351 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:49 PM
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There is a difference between "good" rollers and "excellent" rollers. You don't have to raise 100 to get 20 "good" rollers, but you might have to raise 100 to get 20 "excellent" rollers. Heine understands that; Scott understands that; and Aubrey evidently knows that. I have never raise 100 either, but I think I am going to try.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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winwardrollers
211 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:56 PM
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Nick
good post ...But how much caffine did you have before you judged..lol
bwinward
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Dave Szab
249 posts
Mar 27, 2009
8:05 PM
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Nick,
Just because you raise 100, doesn't guarantee you will get 20 "excellant" rollers. If only it was that easy. LOL. But, let's say it is, why not just raise 50 and get 10 "excellant" rollers? That's half a kit of "excellant" rollers. Man, in a couple years you would be unbeatable!
Nick, it all depends on what your definition of "excellant" is. I have not ever seen the guys that I know that breed over 100 birds, breed what I would consider 20 "excellant" rollers out of those 100, but more power to you if you want to go in that direction.
Dave
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Scott
1951 posts
Mar 27, 2009
8:27 PM
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Nick, I have no doubt that it was a very good team, you seemed to of gotten caught up in it also
though.
That doesn't make it a lesser team either though,but next time you see a very good team you will probably be a little better composed, but you did the right thing, it was the best that you have seen and you dumped what you had and moved up a notch.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 8:53 PM
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Bill C
301 posts
Mar 27, 2009
9:07 PM
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This is always intersting to give advice and we can take it and learn from it. But something important was over looked in all of this and that is some guys are just going to be better at flying, breeding and competitons than others. It is not just all about breeding from 8 to 10 good pair it is about knowledge and what you do with it.
I admit I am a slow learner with rollers but I know it is all about the coach, like Paul has stated in his eveolution of the roller article. My two boys both played little league baseball and My oldest son has made the ternament of champions three years in a row. That was accomplished by the coaches of these boys. The best coaches in baseball makes the best players in little league. I believe it is the same with these rollers for the most part. Those who focus and are good trainers and put the time into it reap the rewards of comp day, plain and simple.
I realize that I can focus on just a few pair or breed from more pairs. The birds in Sacto are 100 times better these days than when I started just 7 years ago. It used to be Joe Urban and Dwight Wallace had the best birds around here and Joe was not in Sacto. Now I see potential in every one of the guys flying birds here in local comps. I remember the bay area guys who said, " Dang we thought we had good birds until we came and saw birds here in Sac." It is all about the flyer and maybe that was taken for granted but thought I would mention it. Bill C
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3352 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:09 PM
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Scott - you might be right; maybe I did get caught up in the show. But, it was one hell of a show.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
1955 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:27 AM
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Now you know what is possible with your new birds, with hard work and proper selection there should come a time where you will see the greatest kit of your life in your own backyard,sorry to say though that when that happens it will be only you and the dog LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
212 posts
Mar 28, 2009
5:30 PM
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Good post Sal and Cliff.
One thing I would not care for is training young birds like you do cliff..I like a break from young birds during the year.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 5:35 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1805 posts
Mar 28, 2009
6:45 PM
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Brad,
It's a labor of love, believe me. And it stays in a nice balance. Every month or so another round goes into the kit box, another is getting on the wing nicely, another is coming into spin, others are starting to sort out their depth and speed, and the holdovers are makin' me proud in any competition or visit from a friend that provides a reason to put them up. At the end of every year I pull my best five of the oldest birds in the comp team for the stock loft and replace them with the best five that I have produced (preferrably early) in the year. And it is a cyclic thing with more intensive breeding Jan-May and more intensive flying April-October, but there is always some of everything going on. And I can cycle through different breeding combinations to sort out the producers. In my opinion, my philosophy has been more fun and moved me forward a little faster with my program than I might have by following the philosophy of breeding only a few birds out of a few pairs. But then, I am sure that there are those who might say that I have just been lucky in the competitions for the past couple of years! LOL! There is certainly an element of truth to that. A good friend of mine says, "Winning in competition is a combination of 25% good birds, 25% good loft management, and 50% luck!" I see no reason to change anything at this point; especially breeding out of culls, to get back to the topic at hand. Just today, on another list, I see a veteran flyer from New York recomending to another veteran flyer from Carolina who was reporting on the dismal production of two of his best performers. He recommended that the guy breed these birds to their closest-related bird who was not performing at all in the air! Go figure...
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 6:59 PM
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Scott
1957 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:13 PM
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Without the right birds you have nothing, only a small fraction is luck, good managers make their own luck,and that is why particular flyers show a pattern of consistancy.
("Winning in competition is a combination of 25% good birds, 25% good loft management, and 50% luck!" )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Dave Szab
250 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:25 PM
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Cliff,
That veteran flyer from New York, that you are talking about, raises 100 to 150 babies a year and still has problems putting up a solid team......go figure.
Dave
(Just today, on another list, I see a veteran flyer from New York recomending to another veteran flyer from Carolina who was reporting on the dismal production of two of his best performers. He recommended that the guy breed these birds to their closest-related bird who was not performing at all in the air! Go figure...
Cliff )
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Scott
1961 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:42 PM
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Maybe he just isn't breeding enough birds , or maybe his problem stems from breeding to many of such birds LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1806 posts
Mar 28, 2009
8:16 PM
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Well guys, there is obviously more to it than just sheer numbers......I'll be the first to admit....
....and as for, "good managers make their own luck", that is exactly what I described above....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 8:17 PM
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Bill C
304 posts
Mar 28, 2009
8:30 PM
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Cliff You had made some good observations . That was well understood by me. It really is harder for some of us to do as well due to family, kids, BOP ect. Good point Cliff.
If anyone is only raising 40 to 50 birds and flying a great team of rollers. Will you please raise 100 or more!... and help out all the guys who need birds to fly! LOL, I am sure a lot of you guys do help out when asked. I am helping out some guys myself but 40 or 50 birds a year, you could help out two guys fly a good kit to get started with. I expect to raise about 50 for myself this year because that is all I need right now. Many of those straight rollers I keep will come into the roll and I wont have to breed a whole lot more birds just to get a few more of what I want. But I will help out the new guys get some birds that have asked me for help. P.S. I do not sell birds or ship birds, I only help out some guys I know in my area. Bill C
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 8:34 PM
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kcfirl
572 posts
Mar 28, 2009
9:26 PM
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hi Scott,
I believe it when you say Heine says he only gets 6 really good ones each year. But I feel it is important to point out that he "only" keeps and flies 40 young birds a year. I was there as you know a month ago and he had 2 kits - 1 cocks and 1-hens, each with about 20 birds in it.
So, he gets 6 smokers out of 40 or a 15% superstar average.
PS. he also flies about half his breeders again each year in the WC. So perhaps half his WC team is breeders, then the 6 superstars from the previous year along with 6 more that are 3-5 years old that have never been stocked.
Ken
PS. I totally agree that anymore than 3 young bird teams is too many for working stiffs. For myself, 2 young bird kits a year is all I have time for and barely enough time for that!
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winwardrollers
213 posts
Mar 28, 2009
10:31 PM
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Putting your breeders in the air helps see if you are breeding out of culls for sure.
I wonder what the average is.. of Roller breeders do this? I would think that it would universally be the natural thing to do when moving breeders out of the Breeder loft..it would be a telling story of a loft breeders by the birds that return with honor back to a A-team kit.
Heine hangs on to some key pairs then test drives the lower rank breeders..from what I understand..it would be a bad mistake no to.
Birds that have raised a round or two seem to be more settled. I have always wanted to let the whole kit dump a couple of rounds of eggs in a month lock down then return them to the air and see if there is improvement. Why don't someone try that out for me. May start a bad habit..but that alright there your birds..lol
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 10:52 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3356 posts
Mar 29, 2009
8:37 AM
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Nobody has been as consistant as me; consistantly bad(LOL).
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
1962 posts
Mar 29, 2009
10:36 AM
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That is for sure Brad, by the time breeding season and over and I get that last youngster kit up I am fried any more, plus then it's time for flying and evaluating,distraction of more youngsters is the last thing I want.
I used to breed 5-6 kits of youngsters and it was like a full time job, and to top it off all I did was spin my wheels compared today.
(One thing I would not care for is training young birds like you do cliff..I like a break from young birds during the year.
bwinward )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2009 10:53 AM
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Alohazona
595 posts
Mar 29, 2009
11:22 AM
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I think I'm somewhere in the middle on this one.Like Cliff said,Scott has been there done that.
I will breed as much as 3 kits,I am currently half way there.Two of the kits will be off of 3 main pairs,and the last kit is for experimental matings[within the same line] and to keep a few other familys moving forward.
The only way I am able to do this is my son helps me.He starts work early,so when he comes home he hits the waterers and every third day the breeder pans.That is the only way I can focus on feeding,training the young,and watching the birds fly.
I can't conceive doing any more than that,as I am not anywhere near retirement.
Oh yes ,in return, my son lives for free ,eats me out of house and home,and grumbles when he has to do the nastier stuff, when I have to work late,lol.
As for the initial post,I DON'T BREED FROM CULLS....,But in time I will probably consider them that,as they are just stepping stones...Aloha,Todd
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J_Star
1941 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:44 AM
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I am really glad that this thread generated good information and participation. I enjoyed the diverse point view that was exchanged.
For several years, I bred out of 8 pairs and was able to breed about 30 to 35 a year. However, couple of years ago, I attended the Canton area club get together and a prominent and successful fancier flew his young teams for us. He opened the doors for about 5 kitboxes and there were around 100 young birds flying. In my own mind, I was wondering how can fanciers breed that much…comparing to my own…Anyhow, I started to attend the conventions and visit people out of state that I never thought I ever would visit or meet by person or ever go to their backyard…but I started noticing that the successful flyers have from 8 to 12 kitboxes full of young birds…I started to realize that the common denominator is in numbers. My conclusion is that people might say one thing just because it is the lengo in the roller hobby and reinforces their status in the hobby as they are successful because they have that producer cock or hen or the golden pairs. Maybe they do and they breed ton of them but what I found out was what goes in the backyard is totally different than what they say. How naive I was…go figure.
There is more than one successful way for breeding good kits. And I hope that the new comers don’t think that you have to have a producer cock or hen and/or golden pair or two to be able to produce good kits. It is the wrong message we send out due to the fact that those birds don’t just drop from the sky into somebody’s loft. It takes many and many years to find the gold nuggets. However, gold nuggets are faster found when you move earth with a dozer than a shovel. Good luck to you all.
Jay
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Scott
1965 posts
Mar 30, 2009
3:52 PM
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No one can properly train and fly out that many kits of youngsters Jay, I was self employed for most of my pigeon flying years,and as long as I had a cell phone the company operated so I did a lot of flying, I can assure you that those that are breeding that many are doing a lot of wheel spinning,not to mention wasting birds.
The most I could do was 6 , which were fine until early Summer when the heat hit, then it was all I could do to fly the six kits,Fall was a little better until the time change and short days plus weather, this is where "everything" gets cheated on into March, now you are into the next breeding season,and to top it off I live in Nor. Calif when I can fly more than most.
Scott
(but I started noticing that the successful flyers have from 8 to 12 kitboxes full of young birds)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2009 3:56 PM
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fhtfire
1896 posts
Mar 30, 2009
3:56 PM
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WOW...8-12 kit boxes full of birds...I cant see how you could fly out that many birds and be able to give them all that is due....I mean..I am off quite a bit and 3 was a lot...LOL...now I am at 4 kit boxes and I wont go any higher....why.....I will lose my focus...I cant see how anybody could fly out 10-15.....I get all I need with 3 and now 4...and I was reluctant to take on 4 kit boxes....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1966 posts
Mar 30, 2009
4:03 PM
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Three is easy,but still work but managable , add in A-team and that is 4, A-team does fine flown twice a week,I might add that I have 5 boxes though but it is a waste to fill it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
255 posts
Mar 30, 2009
4:30 PM
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I heard Ollie Harris flew 12 kits when he lived in Devon, but he had his business at his house at the time. As to flyers bringing out breeders to fly I used to do it every year and then pick the next seasons breeders from my flyers. That way I wa salways breeding from my best, and not relying on memory to compare my new birds with those that bred them. This lasted until my birds got decimated by the BOP's.
I now have a few breeders that will stay inside, and just one kit of average quality flyers until I build up the numbers again.
Pete
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winwardrollers
216 posts
Mar 30, 2009
7:21 PM
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I like to fly young birds in large groups 50 to 60 Birds. They seem to fly slower and change directions better in large groups. First two rounds are flown together as soon as the second round start to lift and need to be cut back to every other day. Saves time for me and just not interested until young birds are 6 months old.
I like young birds all the same age in groups as well they seem to develop physically and mentally at the same rate and can all be feed somewhat evenly.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2009 7:36 PM
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KiddenAround
297 posts
Mar 30, 2009
8:08 PM
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Scott hit the nail on the head -- 'it sure ain't easy!'
I won't be competing any time soon. You guys would laugh me out, but it's sure been educational and 'therapeutic'.
Nick, I eat crayfish (crawfish) too -- mmm mmm!!! :) And I think Aubrey makes sense -- I know when I take pictures, I have to shoot 40 to get one good one. Maybe pigeons are the same -- law of the odds.
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-- Laura
Professional Thrill Seeker
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
380 posts
Mar 30, 2009
8:32 PM
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This was a good post. Probably scares some of us newbie’s. I have 13 birds that will be my base (2 familis). Some are late hatches, and flew very little, could all be culls. Hopefully one pair will give me goods birds to build on.
I have 26 young birds from Last year, 16 of them are good kit birds, but I would only consider moving, maybe, 4 to the stock loft. And they got to continue to be good this year.
5 are just turning 6 months which is when my birds start to roll. So we will see how well last year was after this year is over.
I think culls are used because it takes a long time to evaluate your birds. Especially if you have BOP issue. If one bird is doing well, it is hard to keep sending it up as shark bait. Even without that issue patience for 18 months to 2 year is hard, and then another 18 months to 2 years to see if it is any good as a breeder.
One needs the patience and perseverance of Job.
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RT Williams
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Alohazona
598 posts
Mar 31, 2009
9:29 PM
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Scott and Dave,
If we are to believe top ranked fliers for example Heine,if we are not breeding from birds out of our A team then we are breeding from culls.
I agree with this basic but powerful statement,but not 100%.The reason is the creative factor,we are always doing it but not many want to give creativeness, it's credit,especially when things turnout favorable.When things don't, they are quickly discounted as wasted effort.
I think what we are bridging on, is success, influencing methods as tried and true.These birds will leave the oldest and longest fanciers with a mystical shrug on there shoulders.As soon as the wisdom wheels itself down the driveway,it's taking on another adventure uniquely it's own.I can't help but think, when, I hear of a nail hitting square on the head,that it is a swing....and a high arching miss.Then it is really time to buckle down and get serious.This is natural dynamics at it's finest.I'm getting my nest bowls out.......Aloha,Todd
P.S.what works for me ,might not work for you...yeah,that's the ticket
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Dave Szab
252 posts
Mar 31, 2009
10:14 PM
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Todd,
What Scott and I have put forward are methods that, from our experience, will give you laser point focus in your loft management. This in turn will allow you to increase your percentages of good birds coming out of your stock loft, and will give you a strong base to go forward with. This strong base wil help you build a family of rollers rhat will hold up for many, many years without deterioating or having to bring in other birds down the road.
Yes, there are many different ways to do things, but some work better than others, and it is up to you to decide which method works better for you. Listen with an open mind, and don't be afraid to try different methods, then use YOUR experience to come up with what works best for you.
Dave Szabatura
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J_Star
1946 posts
Apr 01, 2009
5:30 AM
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You fly them in groups of 40 or more together until some of them start to blossom. Then you pick the few into a kit of their own and you fly them once every two days. You continue picking until you achieve what you are looking for.
(No one can properly train and fly out that many kits of youngsters Jay, I was self employed for most of my pigeon flying years,and as long as I had a cell phone the company operated so I did a lot of flying, I can assure you that those that are breeding that many are doing a lot of wheel spinning,not to mention wasting birds.)
Jay
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1807 posts
Apr 01, 2009
5:56 AM
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Jay,
(No one can properly train and fly out that many kits of youngsters Jay, I was self employed for most of my pigeon flying years,and as long as I had a cell phone the company operated so I did a lot of flying, I can assure you that those that are breeding that many are doing a lot of wheel spinning,not to mention wasting birds.)
Referencing the above quote, you are right on, Jay. Where there's a will...there's a way. There are many ways to crack that nut. Because certain individuals are unsuccessful or unwilling to work with numbers in order to improve their odds against adversity; it is more an implication of their own particular management practices, and desires, more than it is an implication of the philosphy in general. The variables in an individual's committment, time, and circumstances will dictate his success and/or failure with either philosophy. Like Dave said, flyers ought to try it both ways and see what works for them. I guess I'll just keep spinnin' my wheels into the finals, I hope! LOL!
Cliff
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
477 posts
Apr 01, 2009
10:09 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
The averages say you have a much better chance of finding some quality birds with higher numbers to choose from...You get 20 birds out of the best loft in the world what are your chances of getting 1 great bird? I just started getting serious again last fall, flew a pile of birds and am down to less than half what I started with..This has allowed me to have a kit for the WC..I am sure I will not make any headlines, but I am on my way..
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1808 posts
Apr 01, 2009
11:48 AM
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Mike,
My point exactly! At this stage in your program, breeding from half as many birds would probably have produced only half a kit and left you out of the WC, or with a much lesser kit to compete with if you had to accept poor quality birds. By flying a pile of birds, as you put it, you are able to raise the bar and keep more of the better birds instead of having to accept lower quality just to have enough to put a comp team together.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2009 11:50 AM
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toronto15
138 posts
Apr 01, 2009
1:13 PM
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Dave Szab,thanks for your post #248. Your methods and advice make a lot of sense, and goals don,t seem to be so impossible and confusing. To be honest I,ve been debating whether its gonna be Birmingham Rollers or back to Racers.Thanks again for more solid advice. Glen.
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0221
137 posts
Apr 02, 2009
10:37 AM
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Scott, I can see why some people think your to rough. But never stop telling them the truth.
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J_Star
1949 posts
Apr 02, 2009
12:09 PM
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What is the truth!!
Jay
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1809 posts
Apr 02, 2009
12:15 PM
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There are very few absolute truths in life. Truth is relative to one's experience of life and to one's perspective. What is true for one is not necessarlily true for another.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2009 12:16 PM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
480 posts
Apr 02, 2009
12:29 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Cliff,
I dont have the patience nor do I want wait to fly birds in competition. I will actually have two breeding lofts with an overlap of both. When I find these few exceptional birds of great quality, I will treat them as a "side Project". I expect to have a few of these side projects going on at the same time. All the youngsters will be flown together in the same kits and picked out of the air. It makes no difference to me whether the parents were $10 a pair or $300 a pair. I have been flying about 50 birds at a time together. I just recently started putting the best birds into a 20 bird kit box. I have seen no adverse effects from training them in large groups or in a small loft. The birds in the kit box learned to trap the first day, after flying out of a loft for these passed months. Once I have a loft of good rollers to fly again, I will do pretty much like Scott, Dave and the others. I am not to that point yet. I refuse to wait for one or two exceptional pairs to get me to that point over the next who knows how many years...
Mike,
My point exactly! At this stage in your program, breeding from half as many birds would probably have produced only half a kit and left you out of the WC, or with a much lesser kit to compete with if you had to accept poor quality birds. By flying a pile of birds, as you put it, you are able to raise the bar and keep more of the better birds instead of having to accept lower quality just to have enough to put a comp team together.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1810 posts
Apr 02, 2009
1:54 PM
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Sounds like a plan, Mike. As I said above, a roller man has to walk before he can run.
Cliff
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donnie james
370 posts
Apr 03, 2009
1:53 PM
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hay scott very good post and to the point and i have to agree with you...........donny james
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3202 posts
Apr 03, 2009
10:02 PM
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There are very few absolute truths in life. Truth is relative to one's experience of life and to one's perspective. What is true for one is not necessarlily true for another. Cliff
Cliff, do you realize what you just said makes NO sense at all? Your entire statement contradicts itself? LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2009 10:05 PM
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Velo99
2080 posts
Apr 04, 2009
7:23 AM
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I am going to hit several points here.
First is judging. I was talking to a veteran judge the other day. We were talking about multipliers and the use of them. 1.0 is the multi for an average kit. Says so in the rules. If a kit is hitting 15-20 foot rolls,7-10 bird breaks,12 or so breaks in 20 minutes its an average kit.1.0-1.2 for depth and the quality depends on how many floppers are put up. This judge told me a story of a kit of deep floppers that had a group of easily impressed onlookers hooting and hollering expecting a 700-800 point score. He gave 1.2/1.2 and the flyer was mad as hell with the 240ish score he was awarded.
That being said it ties into the breeding program.
I know the NBRC rules state,the competetion is for rollers not tumblers. Thing is I have seen a lot of posts and comments in the chats and forums about this bird and that bird guys have thats a smoker and breeds like kind. Where are these guys in the finals?
ACTIVITY DOES NOT EQUAL BREAKS AND ROLL.When you breed and watch your birds fly BE HONEST with yourself. Actually get a pad and score your birds.
I have never judged a kit other than my own.I have discussed judging and judging styles with the judges I know and those who have judged my kits.I keep a score pad for three weeks before a competetion. With the exception of one weather related disaster I know pretty much what I am gonna score. Been within 10-20 points so far. I have fixed in my mind what I want from my kit. Not some fantasy with the birds landing on me like Ace Ventura, but a real vision of what I can actually breed.
I am a breed two kits to build one guy. Culling 50 birds a year adding to my team. Really guys like me only have one team. We are simply adding to it as we breed better. The holdovers are on limited time when breeding season starts. Its a cycle as several have mentioned.
The only thing I`m not quite sure of is if I am pulling the trigger on some of them before they are fully developed. The only alternative is to breed one kit a year...thats kinda scary.
Honesty with yourself is the best way to proceed in your program.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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Scott
1976 posts
Apr 04, 2009
8:10 AM
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Kenny, why were the floppers scored at all ? a 1.0 is the starting point and the bird should be rolling cleanly from start to finish to earn even a 1.0, if a bird can't even meet that it is rolling like a cull, and culls should never be scored.
Scott
(This judge told me a story of a kit of deep floppers that had a group of easily impressed onlookers hooting and hollering expecting a 700-800 point score. He gave 1.2/1.2 and the flyer was mad as hell with the 240ish score he was awarded.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
487 posts
Apr 04, 2009
8:57 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Tony,
I think Cliff's statement makes a lot of sense actually if you think about it. I have three families here and some oddballs thrown in. I have been trying to put the best of them together into one kit for the WC, and this is where Cliff's statement makes sense to me.. I really like the Chandlers, Plonas and the Hardesty, but I have found it is to hard to fly them together. The problem is in feeding them correctly. The Hardestys are what I call a small bird. They are very fast and very frequent 20-30 foot spinners, they are a blur..I have found that I have to feed them a full ration and as much as they want in a 30 minute period. I actually feed them a coffee can full and let them eat what they want. I think that they are so small and active that they burn up whatever they eat very quickly..The Plonas and Grovers cannot be fed like this or they are out of site and flying for hours...Another observation I have made due to the heated debates here on color is what seems to be the best birds and their respective colors. I will list the family and the colors...
Hardesty - Red Checks and Red Check Wht/Flt or Badge, but basically Red Check and Indigo.
Plonas - Red Grizzle and Dark grizzle.
Grover - Lavenders and Blacks.
These are just my observations as far as color and maybe it will change as I go forward. I do know that what is true with feeding one family is not true with the others. It also looks as though the best qualities in these families lean towards a certain color.
There are very few absolute truths in life. Truth is relative to one's experience of life and to one's perspective. What is true for one is not necessarlily true for another. Cliff
Cliff, do you realize what you just said makes NO sense at all? Your entire statement contradicts itself? LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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0221
138 posts
Apr 04, 2009
9:56 AM
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velo99, scott, Tell like it is. Everybody needs to hear it.
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