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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
The Case for and Against Purity in the BR
The Case for and Against Purity in the BR
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donnie james
388 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:34 PM
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cliff and list the way i see it "EVERYONE IS A COLOR BREEDER BECAUSE YOU GOT YOUR RED CHECKS AND YOUR BLUE CHECKS AND THE LIST GO ON"...........there you have in my opinion on the subject ...............donny james
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gotspin7
2357 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:35 PM
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Cliff, to each his own. Good luck with it!
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Sal Ortiz
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George R.
1426 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:41 PM
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If a person is enjoying the time spent in the Backyard with thier Pigeons , it dont matter if they are breeding commies or meat Birds.
pigeons are a hobby nothing more and nothing less.
hob·by 1 (hb)
n. pl. hob·bies
An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.
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as defined by online dictionary !!!!!!!
the Novice
George
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3226 posts
Apr 11, 2009
9:13 PM
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Saying it don't make it so...Really Cliff, what is the point of your conclusion? That if we can't absolutely 100% disprove your conclusion then that makes you correct? You shared an anecdotal story that's it. It was interesting though.
Cliff, I lean toward the Birmingham Roller as a breed, if there is some factor hidden in the birds, it would not change my view. The "purists" keep their finger in the dike as it where, and if not for them, the BR would be mongrelized to nothingness. Perhaps some are not as polished and sharp as you in presenting their "cases" or position, but the lack of sophistication in presentation does not make them wrong and you right.
But lets suppose you are right, do you think it is detrimental to the written aerial standard that has been with us for well over a 100 years to breed rollers away from it for any reason?
I mean, what man knowingly seeks the performance within "performance" rollers that have not been bred toward the ideal which is performing with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance? Toss your notions around all you want, the pure Birmingham Roller enthusiast, as far as I am concerned, is chasing the the aerial standard, not vaporous arguments and elbowing his fellow rollerman. Other than that, I hope you and your birds are doing well.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 9:14 PM
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glenn
233 posts
Apr 11, 2009
9:30 PM
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Hello Cliff:
Again I ask the question…How come the funny colors are not in the English birds? That is still the question of the day…Glenn
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macsrollers
40 posts
Apr 11, 2009
11:01 PM
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Over time people have taken animals and birds and created breeds. They take a little of this and a little of that to add the desirable traits that they are looking for. Eventually they come up with what they want and call it a breed. Pure bred dogs are a perfect example. But to create the breed they crossed in what they needed to add those desirable traits. So the Birmingham Roller became the Birmingham Roller when our fore fathers reached the point of adding in the traits they wanted and had what they wanted-thus the Birmingham Roller with a set standard. Then along comes those that decided that a desirable trait would be more diversity in colors. So they start adding in the color traits they wanted. Are these still Birmingham Rollers by the standard for the breed? The debate will never end on that! But I believe that some of the colors that have been added have reached the point where they can spin with the best of Birmingham Rollers. I have personally seen Andulusians, Opals, and a few yellows that excel at the performance standards for Birmingham Rollers. Did they change the name of German Shepards when they created white ones? The color debate will live forever. I agree that spin must come first if you want to call it a Birmingham Roller, but if it excels at the the performance standard, no matter what color, it at least deserves to be acknowledged for that. No matter what it is called or how much we debate, if it excels as a spinner it has deserved it's dues. Now if I could just get my Almonds to excel at the standard instead of just meet the standard then I will be able to call them true spinners! Another project of alot of frustration before hopefully realizing complete gratification! If it spins, I'm in! Don M.
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j .wanless
719 posts
Apr 12, 2009
2:19 AM
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hi all
glen good point one of the reasons is because here in the uk .the show men breed them for show + the comp flyers breed them only for comp.its impossible to breed them to do both + be successful.
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DeepSpinLofts
1358 posts
Apr 12, 2009
2:28 AM
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Good morning Cliff... very good reading!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1836 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:38 AM
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Tony,
Genn raises an absolutley valid question to add to the list that I proposed. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of answers to these questions. As I said, it is up to each of us to review the literature and the stories that are handed down and come to his own conclusions.
Maybe there is the possibility of different levels of purity found within the Birmingham Roller breed. There are, undoubtedly, certain strains and lines that have been kept "more pure than others". I read somewhere that Boer Goats have several different percentages of purity within the breed.....but they are still all referred to and described as Boer goats, perhaps the use changes with the % of purity, I am not sure.
There is not necessarily a conclusion to these questions and to this philosophical line of reasoning. But I am not too sure about the statement that each bird used in a breeding program has always been a "performance" par excellence example. As in the thread that Scott brought about breeding from non-performers becasue of their pedigree and type. We know that this was very common practice for several decades in many Pensom lines of Birmngham Rollers. Breeding practices depend on the desired traits that the breeder wishes to instill in his birds or delete from his birds that may have nothing to do with performance, i.e. feather quality, webbed toes, crossed beak, flightiness, homing instinct, cocks too cocky, parental qualities, and of course, feather color.
Tony, you said, "the lack of sophistication in presentation does not make them wrong and you right."
This is not about anybody being wrong or right. You asked what my point was, Tony. My point is that this is about the right of every roller man to have the freedom to evaluate all the eveidence and make his own choice in the matter, without reprisals, criticism, and attacks on his person and on his family of rollers from others who have made a different choice.......because we do not know for certain, what the answers to these questions are. Simple enough. Now, you and I both know that this may never happen. It has always been a part of the sport. But that does not render the making of the point any less honorable or important in the overall scheme of things.
And finally, you said, "Saying it doesn't make it so." Absolutely! And that applies to both sides of this issue! I was not attempting to prove anything in particular, merely ask questions that, without valid answers to, leave a lot of room for reasonable doubt as the the absolute purity of the breed, and the absurdity of using that "purity" as a means to justify attacks on others roller men and their birds.
And you said it very well, Tony..."I mean, what man knowingly does not seek the performance within "performance rollers" that have been bred toward the ideal, which is performing with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance?"...that's what it's all about in my book.
However we do disagree on one thing, Tony, in your statement,"the pure Birmingham Roller enthusiast, as far as I am concerned, is chasing the the aerial standard." It appears to me that they chase the "purity" standard with equal or even greater zeal. We know for certain that there are many individuals in both camps that chase the aerial standard, and men on both sides of the issue that do not.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 7:09 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1837 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:54 AM
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John
I see no one using show rollers in competition flys in my neck of the woods either. I see competition rollers of every color imaginable, but many are what people refer to as less than "100% PURE" Birmingham Rollers. IF Performance is the goal, then one can compete rather well with Birmingham Rollers that are only 99.9% pure. BUT....I agree,....with performance as the goal, one can't afford to be influenced by show qualities such as feather color, if he is going to move his family of rollers forward......and that applies to both groups of rollers, those "thought" to be pure and those "thought" to be less than pure.
I doubt the show Rollers over here can even fly.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 6:57 AM
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Indy
49 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:14 AM
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I tend to agree with Cliff here. If the Birmingham Roller is a performance breed and are judged based on their performance then a colored bird that can perform in the air and compete with what is supposed to be 100% pure Birmingham Rollers has every right to be considered a Birmingham Roller. I would rather have a colored bird that performs than a bird that I knew was 100% pure Birmingham Roller with a pedigree back to imported birds from the 1950's or 60's that did not perform. Just my thoughts
John
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Scott
2020 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:18 AM
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Cliff , close your eyes and tapp your heals together 6 Bazilion time's while repeating " I wish they were'nt mutz" , and it will come true for you , then stick pins in a little doll that represents those color breeders that polluted the breed keep saying over and over again " may a swallow pigeon re-mutate out of every egg"
If that doesn't work after 600 times ,switch it to "may the forefathers of the breed kick their assess for what theyv'e done" try this another 600 times , if none of this works just keep up with the silly threads such as this and hope you convince those that know no better.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 7:46 AM
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Indy
50 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:33 AM
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As to reference about Boer Goats they show as percentages and purebred/fullbreds. A female is considered a purebred if she is 15/16th Boer goat. That can be proved on her registrations papers. Males must be 31/32 to be considered pure. They do not have a percentage class for males so once they reach the 31/32 can be shown. Once they reach these percentages they are for all practical purposes considered pure. I grew up showing Simmental cattle and they had a similar system of registry. I am more active in breeding show rabbits where the rule is once outcross breed is off of a three generation pedigree it is considered pure and can be registered as such. That would make them 15/16th. Pure is a realitive term in livestock breeding and can mean different things to different people and in different situations so a color cross 20 or more years ago should be of little difference if the line has been bred and selected for performance since that time. Remember there are lines of Show Rollers that claim to be 100% Birmingham Rollers that have just been bred for a different purpose.
John
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3228 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:06 AM
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Scott, I understand what you mean. Can you explain to some of the good folks here, the challenge you feel is faced by rollermen who work with out-crossed rollers and the generational breeding effort required to maintain the essential aerial qualities that are the Birmingham Roller standard? Thanks in advance!
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Indy, I don't think anyone here is taking the position that a stiff but "pure" Birmingham Roller is any good at all. The whole point is that BR's bred to the aerial standard will in the end, be a superior bird to an out-cross bred to the standard.
I think the reasoning is something like this: in the BR breed, the rolling traits have best been collected and maintained, that is genetically "fixed". By regular and proper selection toward the aerial standard, the BR as a breed, have traits that do not tend to deteriorate over time.
On the other hand, overtime, the cross-bred birds will need to have something bred back into them from birds exhibiting more of the aerial standard. This applies to individuals who are set on keeping the traits from the original out-cross.
Also, I am not saying that a "non-Birmingham Roller" cannot roll to the aerial standard. But just because a Poodle can run, jump, bark, growl, snarl and bite like a German Shepard does not make it a German Shepard.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 8:08 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2839 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:11 AM
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When I woke up this morning at 7AM I said what a beautiful day let me go fly my birds do some evaluation let my young birds get some air time .as I stare into the beautiful sky and listening to the quietness around me I stop to think this is Heaven to me and as I look at those colors on my birds black and white ,red and white and self blacks I said wow ain't those colorful birds beautiful. I took a moment to think about the guys that really like colors I thought to myself they must feel like I feel .hey its about enjoying your time in your own backward with what you like the feeling is unbelievable...The way I see it you do your thang and I do mine..what ever floats your boat what ever makes you happy ,its your thang.. do it...I know the birds in the past were not pure every kind of bird was mix in to establish a breed .but I don't care about the past I care about now I me will keep my birds pure because anything else again will take me back to the beginning ..like I said me not you I don't care what people do with their birds you know why because I don't pay their rent..
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
507 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:18 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Unless we all agree to get rid of any bird that does not meet the purists qualifications for color..They are here for good..Some of these colors have been here long before most of us..Cliff is flying competition and seems to be having some success..So why knock him?
Scott your comment that these birds cannot stand on their own needs supporting statements from you...
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j .wanless
720 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:23 AM
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hi all
hi cliff i can say without a doubt the area i come from not 1 of us as ever tried or would ever try to cross anything into our rollers .at least not in the last 40 years we have not.though i had heard back in the 40/s or 50/s in the black country they may have tried it with what they call the badges.which are a sort of tumbler .but it is only ear say not fact.
we find it hard enough to breed top quality rollers as it is without making it more difficult.with us its top quality breeding + nothing else does not matter what colour it is.most of the birds in my area are in some way related + they all look alike.with my own birds i can breed a few reds off my blacks or my blues
+ i can guarantee every red i breed will roll .im not saying they will all be good but they always roll.
so really i should concentrate on only breeding reds.
but that means changing my way of breeding in a sence
when i pair up my birds i only pair for top quality rollers im not bothered what colour they are.if the odd red one pops out great at least i know its going to roll.most people that see my birds think i only like black+ white .thats not true its just that they are my best producers.so over the years they have took over my loft.
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Hector Coya
459 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:19 AM
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Hey Tony,i just thought id throw gasoline to the fire,,,
Do you remember this bird,of course you do,ive bred a few already,you know where i got it from,it came from one of of your best friend and mentor,how do you think this gene defect poped up.can you explain it to everyone,you already called your friend and he confirmed that he bred it,yea he broke the pair up and it hasnt poped up again but the gene is still there hounting you and everyone that might have this family.think about it, it didnt start in my loft,im finaly going to breed one back to back and try to get a bigger front crest,i have about 4 with this trait, and yeas im keeping the performance in mind.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 10:27 AM
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Scott
2026 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:20 AM
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Cliff leaves out a few details about those Opals where Ellis is concerned And Rick S. this is a little of what Rick had to say about such birds.
( I played the game of mongrels vs. pure and realized what a waste of time it is. New flyers need to know up front that most of these rare color birds arethe result of another breed being introduced.)
( As they say here, "Bin Der-Dun Dat". THEY WEREN'T FOR ME, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.)
We keep hearing about "this family" my question is , what family? just because you have a collection of birds on your property doesn't make it a family.
Where do these newer crossbred mutz fit in ? the Pencel,Stencil, frill, Barless and countless others, are they part of this same so called families.
Who in their right minds thinks that the only mogral charactoritic that held is the color?
If you look into these such lofts you will notice that the ones carrying color don't look true in any shape or form, never mind the color all else is wrong.
And yet birds that don't carry the color look far more true even out of the same birds, is it because they kept going back and forth to the real deal to the mutt with the color ?
One thing cliff won't tell you is he has a lot of different pigeons over there and not all are mutz, as do all those that have color, they have to have them to hold the mutz up , refere back to Freds "How To Be A Color Breeder"
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 10:21 AM
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Scott
2027 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:22 AM
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Hector, WTF is that ? LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Indy
52 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:28 AM
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Tony
All I was saying is that just because it is a pure BR and the right color does not make it a great spinner and just because it is an off color does not mean that it is not a good roller.
John
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3229 posts
Apr 12, 2009
11:42 AM
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Hector, why you want to bring this up online? Once upon a time, you wanted to keep this offline…I did speak with “my mentor”, but he did not agree with the conclusion you and the other well-known breeder came up with. Rather than embarrass anyone and save hard feelings, the mentor and I did not pursue it. We let it drop! Here you go picking it up. So you force me to address it online…
Some years back, the mentor started playing with a certain well-known Southern Californian fanciers birds. The mentor crossed some of his onto the well-known fanciers birds. He did this for a while and was not overly pleased with the results (he saw what you saw). He stopped using them and actually started borrowing some of my stock, which was out of his stock from 1993. As far as I know, the mentor has gone back to breeding his stock to get back to his old stuff, which is what I have.
You left out important details…the famous breeder from Southern California is notorious for going to peoples loft and pinching birds, he came to my house when I lived in Bellflower, CA and tried to pinch a roller or two from my kit box. I said “no”. He did not ask me anything too important about the birds, the background of the bird, ask to see the parents, ask about mutations or anything of the sort. If this is his modus operandi, I am not too surprised that someone who got birds from him finds the odd trait.
To say this trait is in the mentors original stock birds he was using so consistently to win many of the local competitions back in the 1990's, is dishonest, does not speak the truth and trying to make a connection that is not there.
I have bred approaching 2000 birds with my line and I have NEVER I will repeat that for you NEVER had anything close, similar, oddly like what you are showing here, nothing at all.
You know my mentor, you know he is not a liar, does not sell rollers or try to represent me in any way. You are spreading innuendo and gossip and it could destroy the reputations of two-respected Southern California rollermen. You have tried to play “GOTCHA” without knowing all the facts or are simply trying to smear people with your accusations without knowing all the facts. Too bad. BTW, that bird is ugly. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3230 posts
Apr 12, 2009
12:08 PM
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Indy, a "pure" BR without performance has little or no value when compared to a "pure" BR flying at or close to the aerial standard. I think we are saying the same thing, except to say, I would rather own the "pure" BR that is doing it right than any other type of cross-bred roller doing it right. But it is fine with me for rollermen to keep any type of roller they want.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2030 posts
Apr 12, 2009
12:23 PM
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Tony , funny that weird shit only shows up at lofts where they want it and in known polluted lofts, refer to Freds " How To Be A Color Breeder"
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Hector Coya
460 posts
Apr 12, 2009
1:13 PM
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Scott,that did not just show up at my house,i got it from somone that is soupose to have pure BR.
Tony ,if you read my post ,i didnt mention where this bird came from,i only mentioned that is a well respected roller breeder,he is my friend too and im not trying to smear his name.
The fact that 4 have been bred with this trait is all i was trying to say.
Whether somone down the line crossed somthing ,i dont know,i know my friend that bred the original did nothing of the sort.
i never and repeat never bred one like this eather,but the fact that somone did ,dosent mean they crossed to get it,it could be a hidn gene from wayback.
the original bird that had this trait could have been culled and it whould have never been known that it was born,just becouse he gave it to me becouse he herd i was working with crest is the only reason its come to light,imagine all the other things that pop up and are culled.
And where ever those parents that bred the first one are eventually those genes will meet again.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 1:17 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
1360 posts
Apr 12, 2009
1:30 PM
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Opals and colors of that sort remind me too much of Almonds. Color isn't my thing (performance first) but I do like to watch a good yellow pigeon that rolls hard and spins tight say in the 15ft-30ft range. I'm not what you can call an expert on plumage colors, however, there are many ways to go about getting yellows and yellow checks in our breeding pens.
One thing for certain is that recessive red in the dilute form is called Yellow. These are quite beautiful and are very frequent rollers. I have found in my family that to mate these together will bring quite a number of over hot birds and many will roll down and crash upon landing from distances as high as 60ft. I firmly believe that it is because I am dealing with a double recessive trait. Remember that recessive red is a recessive gene and so is the dilution.
Dilution in the recessive red is also a sex linked trait. I like to make my recessive reds the long way. The way that I do it brings me many more hens than cocks. I find more good spinning hens in my family than cocks anyway so it doesn’t bother me too much.
....well anyway
What I do is take a recessive red cock that is carrying dilute and mate him to a normal bird that I know is carrying recessive red... say a check. From this mating I know that I can get some dilute recessive red or yellow hens. If I mate a recessive red carrying dilution to a dilute hen carrying recessive red then I can get both dilute recessive red cocks and hens.
NOTE: Breeding yellows this way is sometimes a tedious path to take but I eventually get there. I have found that the dilute recessive reds produced this way are much more stable (15ft-30ft range) than if I were to breed them together. However, I must confess that sometimes I do breed them together because it is the fastest way to get some yellow cocks.
The addition of the factors that I talked about in making a good rich recessive red holds for the making of good yellows. Good yellows will almost take on an orange to gold coloration. They are quite beautiful. The poor ones are washed out. They are pretty also, but they do not have the rich yellow that is wanted in the yellow birds.
Any way I am sure most of us around here with reds have this trait. I must admit though... as a strictly performance minded roller fancier it is a quite beautiful color for a pigeon fancier to have in their loft.
MEMO: Knowledge is a "POWERFUL TOOL".
====> Use it WISELY!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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gotspin7
2365 posts
Apr 12, 2009
1:45 PM
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And you said it very well, Tony..."I mean, what man knowingly does not seek the performance within "performance rollers" that have been bred toward the ideal, which is performing with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance?"...that's what it's all about in my book.
Cliff, were does the color projects fit into performance? Or were they braught in to improve performance in your loft and others?
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Sal Ortiz
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Scott
2031 posts
Apr 12, 2009
2:14 PM
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Hector, I would put the word out on such an individule as a loft to avoid at all costs, someone allowed a mutt on the property, that bird should have been culled along with everything related to it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 2:16 PM
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Hector Coya
461 posts
Apr 12, 2009
2:43 PM
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Scott
I whould not as you said,put the word out, That bird was bred accidently,like i said the person that bred it ,bred it from 2 birds he purchased from someone els/
From as far back as i know,nobody crossed anything in,im sure somwhere along the line someone did.
But somwhere along the line they all did.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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SiDLoVE
404 posts
Apr 12, 2009
3:56 PM
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This one is my Pure BR.
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DeepSpinLofts
1362 posts
Apr 12, 2009
4:43 PM
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he....he....he....he....
You crack me up Sid!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1838 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:26 PM
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Indy
The examples of genetic percentages you gave came from animal registries that were developed by rational, understanding, cognizant people who are literate in genetics.
Sadly the Roller hobby has little of such understanding of genetics and no umbrella registry to help maintain the traits that make a roller, a roller. I cannot speak for all rollers that carry or express a rare color, but the ones from a few well-known and well-recognized breeders made sure that all factors introduced into their rollers, were carried by another roller and that the minimum purity was 15/16 or better.
Like you bring up, in most studies 15/16 is an accepted percentage for genetic purity. But as you see here, some men i the roller hobby would rather argue about it, than accept it.
As I remember old Ivory soap commercials, they would exclaim 99 44/100% pure. And people bought it like crazy. It was pure enough to bathe our kids in it but 99% it is not pure enough for our pigeons. LOL! Go figure.
There are several ways to bridge this division as shown in your post. But you have to have people who want to be reasonable.
Thanks for your interest, and for the information you provided.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1839 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:37 PM
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Tony,
You said,"On the other hand, over time, the cross-bred birds will need to have something bred back into them from birds exhibiting more of the aerial standard. This applies to individuals who are set on keeping the traits from the original out-cross."
I'm surprised at you, my friend. Where did you get that cockamamie idea? LOL! I think it must be Scott that put that notion in your head, as he always tries to perpetiuate this illusion. I know that you know better! As I have written many times before, my competition team is out of birds with Pedigrees of Indigo and Andalusian in the same family (Turner) back to the 1980s. NOTHING ELSE HAS BEEN BRED BACK INTO THEM!!! GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEADS GUYS! They are straight Turner family. Sure, I have a few side projects of family outcrosses, but I am not finding that these birds have the type, the character, or the quality of performance that I am looking for in my A-team, nor the ability to reproduce themselves in good percentages. My best are from the straight Turner stuff. It never ceases to amaze me how some of you guys think that you know better than I, what is happening in my own breeding loft!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1840 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:47 PM
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Hector, Thank you for providing yet another report on this example of a genetic recessive, mutation, or a concealed breed outcross that occurred in, yet another, family of "pure" Birmingham Rollers. That took courage for you to do, knowing that you were going to take some heat for it. I recognize that you were not trying to discredit anyone, just to report another example of the questions in our minds about these issues. That speaks to the questions that I asked about whether we can rely on the word of every roller man who is behind our present family of birds. I suspect that there are many, many, many such stories if we could but catalogue them all down through the ages. Judging from the reaction that you have gotten on this forum, it is easy to see how many men in the past would rather just cull such an occurrence in his loft, rather than risk the judgement and criticism that would likely be heaped upon him or his family of birds.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:48 PM
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glenn
241 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:09 PM
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Cliff:
If you say you are breeding opal to opal back to opal without problems.......not happening.....Andy to andy back to andy with out genetic problems....still not happening. The color itself has a lethal gene...blind babies and other such problems......you are not flying and all opal kit are you?......just some thoughts....Glenn
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 6:11 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3231 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:10 PM
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Cliff, don't think that every opposing post or comment regarding color is about you and your birds. I didn't have you in mind at all while I was attempting to explain to Indy, the position that purists take as regards to out-crosses. A little more humility please. LOL I don't have a personal problem of any kind with your breeding practices. Take a chill pill dude! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Pumpkin Man
84 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:04 PM
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I believe according to Pensom the term BR is a TITLE given to the best tumblers that perfom to standard. Spinning with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance.....
There is a solution to this whole debate though. Just start a breed registry. Anything from the time of the registries inception that cannot be traced back we should just call tumblers. Only those birds that passed the performance standard for BR can be registered or their offsrping. I would also require them be bloodtyped to PROVE parentage, lineage, etc. Otherwise we will continue chasing a myth. This is what other livestock breed associations do, doesn't seem to be a big problem. You could then call the color birds descending from BR's "Appendix BR" That's what the Shorthorn people did when they crossed Maine Anjou into their cattle to increase muscling, etc. You have Shorthorn and Appendix Shorthorn. Nobody seems to have a problem in their association with the different terminology. Just my two cents.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1841 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:41 PM
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glenn
I guess you read Rick Mee's post on another list about his opal's, which appear to be related to this one. Maybe he could repost it here.......a very interesting read. Not all DO has the lethal effect, some does, some does not. Then we also have Recessive Opal. I don't know a lot about opal, to be honest with you. I got this bird from Rick Schoening with a few pair before he moved to Hawaii. I was shocked to see an Opal, to be honest...I didn't know that he was breeding them. As you saw, he said that this bird was the backbone of his kit that dominated competitions in 2004,2005, and 2006. I have paired him with my only leftover Pensom from 2004, as a side project. I thought that a kit of Opal Pensoms would be intersting! LOL! I have no plans to cross him into my family at this point.
But for Andys I have never had a problem. I have been breeding Andy to Andy, Indigo to Indigo, and Double Indigo to Andy/Indigo for five years and have never had a problem. There is no lethal effect of breeding Indigo to Indigo or Andy to Andy, that I am aware of. I believe you may be mistaken. When did you encounter the problem with Andys? Was it first hand experience from breeding them yourself or hear-say?
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1842 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:51 PM
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John,
I do the exact same things you do when pairing up birds. My birds just came to me with a little something extra. I didn't put it there and I certainly don't bred for it. It just goes along with the performance traits that I DO breed for. I selected this family because of their superior performance in the air that I observed in the kits of other men who fly them. It had nothing to do with feather color. It is interesting to me that my comp kit is consisting of more Andalusian selfs with each year. Sorta like your reds. If I get an Andy self, I can be sure that it will perform. I get very few problem birds or rolldowns from my Andy selfs...interesting, huh?
Cliff
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Hector Coya
462 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:39 PM
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Cliff,ive been breeding Andelusian to Andelusian for some time,i have never encountered a problem with the offspring.I get some of the best birds in my kit,just as good as my pure Bob Scott's wich are pure Pensom.
I had a guy come by last year,he was just getting back into birds after a long time,He told me he spent a pretty penny at this top breeders house here in So,Cal,
I offered him a pair of youngsters off my Andelusians,
I few months later he calls me and tells me he wants more of that stuff,and i told him ,but i thought you only wanted pure Pensoms,you where only going to fly those and thats it,he told me that out of all the birds he bought from this big name guy,none where as good.
I told him if he wanted more he was going to have to pay what he payed for those big name birds,,LOL
Hector Coya_SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Mayo
128 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:57 PM
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So, If it LOOKS like A Roller andin hand it FEELS like a Roller, and SPINS like a Roller ....ITs a Roller..........BS!>>>>>>>>>>MaYo
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Mayo
129 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:59 PM
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It takes 50 years to set a breed... to set a breed the breed has to breed its like for 50 years....... and i dont think the Color families have been around that long...............JMO maYo
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glenn
242 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:14 PM
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Hello Cliff:
It was not me but a fellow fanicer who had Almonds & Andys & various other colors related to Almond. When he inbred them there were problems, mostly blind babies and a heavy amount of young birds dieing in the egg. After that he bred the almonds to dark checks & blue checks, but was never happy with the color and moved on to show pigeons.....Glenn
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BA Rollers
223 posts
Apr 12, 2009
11:29 PM
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Glenn, what you describe is the common result with an almond x almond mating, irregardless of the breed.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1844 posts
Apr 13, 2009
5:51 AM
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Precisely, BA. Almond to almond.....NOT Andy to Andy. Andy and Indigo are not related to Almond in amy way. The Almond alleles are Qualmond, Faded, Hickory and Frosty....
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1845 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:22 AM
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List:
I thought I would share this post with the list, I don't think Rick Mee will mind, since he is responding about those Ellis MacDonald Pensom Opals. It is interesting how many veteran roller men are breeding and flying rollers with funny colors.
Cliff
Posted by: "WCSPINNER@aol.com" WCSPINNER@aol.com wcspinner
Date: Sun Apr 12, 2009 7:54 am ((PDT))
Cliff,
When I lived in Dothan, AL several years back I somehow ran in to a young guy who had rollers who did not live too far from me. I visited him one day and watched his birds fly, he had several in the kit that were very good quality. He was going to college and was in to duck hunting more than anything so wanted to downsize his birds, I ended up coming home with 47 birds.
I resettled these birds and found three that were outstanding, two cocks and one hen. One of the cocks was a black mottled orange eyed bird. I usually do not name my birds but named him the energizer bunny because he rolled three times a minute, better than medium depth and wings in. The other cock was a 4 year old opal who would roll 100' at least once per minute, that is no exaggeration and I have yet to breed one myself or see one at anyone else's place. The third bird was a opal hen, she was outstanding in the spin with wings bowed in, at times better than once per minute. The BOPs moved in as the seasons changed and I locked all 3 up. I could not resist flying those two cocks so after a week lock down and they having flown at my location for several months I let them out one day, never to be seen again.
When I moved to TX I bred a few birds off the opal hen that was left and flew them out. I have one in the stock loft that is a opal bald cock and a black W/F hen in the A kit that has been ver
y good lately, usually it is in the B kit because of infrequency. If you remember me showing you guys a opal cock when you visited here before the TX convention you will remember this opal bald cock, I also pointed out his mother. I hope to create a sub family with the opal hen and her opal son, I have time to fly more birds now so can experiment a bit. Man those birds have the spin!
The reason I bring this up is because while talking to Ellis while I lived in AL we come to the conclusion after I spoke to the guy's dad who I got them from that he had got the original birds from a truck driver that Ellis had sold birds to, so these few I have go back to Ellis's Opals.
Just thought it was kind of neat.
Rick
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1846 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:30 AM
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Scott also left out an important detail about Rick's explanation that he got rid of his color birds, not because he had any issues with the birds or their performance, but because he got tired of having to explain why he had them in his loft to the purist guys.
And, Hector, it seems that you are not the only roller man who is having odd feathering pop up from time to time in "pure" Birmingham Rollers. Here is what Rick Schoening had to say about the same thing happening in his loft. Like any good roller man, the tendency is to cull it so nobody knows! LOL!:
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2009 19:13:22 -0500
Those are some nice spinning pigeons Jose has. I bet he is happy with their offspring. Hey Cliff, those birds are behind that one opal cock I sent you. For the record, I sent Cliff my very last of the opal line. didn't want to have to explain that rare color all of the time. So as far as I can tell, my birds are pure Birmingham rollers from English decent. No more Ellis Mc Donald(Pensom) awesome opal gene. No more dilutes, reduced(Gary Gilbert), or almonds(Gary Gilbert). All gone. What you see in those pictures are what I have. Some of the HB (Heine Bijker) blue checks show enough bronzing that some guys might think they are opal, but alas it is only recessive red leaking through.
The sad part is that I am getting some funny looking
external feather twisting on the back of the heads of these Heine birds. I may have to purge the line of peak crests!
rb
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 6:31 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1847 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:37 AM
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john w.
I thought it might be interesting to share another perspective on the English birds that Rick Schoening shared with us.
Cliff
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Guys,
I really don't believe there are very many pure strains of rollers in England if any at all. Every time I visited a guy, he would always say that he had birds from at least two different fanciers. Including George Mason. Bill Barratt and Ollie Harris are behind his birds if not more people(possibly Bob Brown too). Nobody in England is hung up on keeping things "pure". I have seen an almond in Bill Barratts loft,as well as John Huntingtons and dilute in various places.
Now granted Bill Barratt made it a point to tell me he didn't breed the almond. But it came from a roller fancier living in Birmingham England!
Ollie Harris even used Barratt birds in his strain. Bill Barratt discovered him using a bird Ollie had caught that Bill recognized he had bred. Using caught pigeons was/is not frowned upon in England. As long as they are a roller.
Americans are really the only group that are adamant about purity. I am sure because of the old PRC mandate of the past.
Now granted, I am pretty confident English roller guys aren't crossing other breeds into their birds. I am just stating the fact that there aren't too many pure strains in England or Europe for that matter. Heine Bijkers are not a pure strain. They have been crossed with Les Basance, George Mason and John Lenihan birds. Heine doesn't even know the difference between recessive red and ash red. He doesn't care, nor do most flyers in other parts of the world. All that matters to them is that they roll and fly properly. Sorry I rambled a bit. Can't fly any babies this morning thanks to that BOP.
rb
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Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 6:37 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3237 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:38 AM
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Chill pill didn't work? LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1848 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:55 AM
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I was fresh out of them, Tony! LOL! Sorry!
The point of this thread and of the posts that I have shared with you is to demonstrate that the purist is all wet when he tries to convey the distorted view that veteran roller men are not breeding and flying competition with Birmingham Rollers that have color modifiers. There are many, many more men who do so. The mission of the purist is to convince others that only a few inexperienced and irrelevant roller men breed and fly them. We can see that this is incorrect; that these birds are being flown by many competitors today, and have been described as the cornerstone of the competition teams of veteran roller men that dominated in years past. The miniscule gene partical responsible for the color of the feather has little to do with the overall qualities of the performace and type of these birds. Or they would not be used by many vteran flyers and competitiors. And the real tragedy is that, sometimes, these guys get rid of the birds purely because of the crap they get from the purist. The lack of respect and intimidation finally gets to them and they cave in and get rid of the bird becasue it is not worth it to them. Clay Hoyle, Master Flyer and NBRC National Champion, told me that he had a family of browns that were some of the best performing birds he has ever had. But he got rid of them because he ws afraid of the lack of respect and intimidation from the purists in the hobby. Today he says that this was the biggest mistake that he has ever made...to let the negative opinions and prejudices of another roller man influence his breeding practices. THIS is the true mission of the purist. You can see why I say that the purist is not the last bastion of protection of the aerial qualites of the breed, as Tony says that he believes. If that were the case, we would have no arguments about the issue! The color of the feather or the breed outcross fifty years ago wouldn't matter. The discussion would simply be, how well do they perform and how are they doing in competitions? I say they (the purists)are the last bastion of the "PURITY" of the breed, and that may be no less the noble cause...except when it veers off into disrespecting and intimidating other roller men, which we see so often on roller forums.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 7:03 AM
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