Scott
2169 posts
May 24, 2009
10:09 AM
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Here is a question that should gain me freinds , how many regions don't have their best kits represented due to the type of judge they used for the regional fly that threw out silly scores ? only to have most of those same kits end up towards the bottom of the heap when a quality judge shows up at finals time.
This year is going to be like the ones in the past where we had a quality judge and where those with the silly regional scores will end up in the middle to the bottom of the pack, it happens every time , why ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 10:19 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3444 posts
May 24, 2009
10:32 AM
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Define what you perceive as a "silly" score. I feel that the purpose of the regional fly is to find the best kit(s) in that region on that given day to represent the region in the finals. Now if you would fly all the same kits in the region four days later the results could possibly be completely different even if you had the same judge. Even the score parameters would or could be different. We all know that on a given day our own birds can perform like champions and on another day we would want to cull them all based on their performance.
The point you are trying to make is hidden beneath your own prejudice, I think.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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0221
270 posts
May 24, 2009
10:33 AM
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ARIZONA, If a judge score's anything that move's. A more frequent kitt of poor quality birds (can) score higher Than a kitt of scorable rollers. The kitt got in with over a 1000 points. The WC judge scored them 37. I saw them fly both times, in My opinion they were better the second time. Nick, the difference is in the judge. Like You said (4days later) same judge.
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 10:47 AM
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Scott
2170 posts
May 24, 2009
10:44 AM
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Nick, here is an example , there is a region that used a judge this year that flat out told me a few years back that simply the most active kits were going to be in the top,and it was obvious in his judging as he scored anything that wiggled.
He scored a region this year where a couple of kits were over a thousand, my money says they will be on the bottom of the sheet with a quality judge, do I think the best kits win under such judges ? No
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 10:47 AM
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Flipmode
376 posts
May 24, 2009
11:12 AM
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It could be three things. 1.)The judges just saw things differently. 2) The kit flew differently when it qualified then on finals day. Or a combination of the two.. The "silly" scores happen in reverse also. Look at the WC finals for 2007. The top 3 guys scores were 2284, 2031 and 1146. Their quilifing scores were 173, 204 and 364. Who do you blame here? Were they scored too high or too low?
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Scott
2171 posts
May 24, 2009
11:32 AM
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Mike, you are 100 0/0 correct that it can happen in reverse, I scribed for that judge and I thought we were in different diminsions under different kits.
I don't but the "saw" things different, there are low or no standards,and then you go up from there.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Flipmode
379 posts
May 24, 2009
12:05 PM
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Hey Scott, Take a look at the differences between the breaks of the two qualifiers for the 2007 WC "Holland region". The 3 judge panel system was used. This is what I mean when I say that the judges can see things differently.
Qualifier
Heine Bijker
Judge #1) 9-7-5-7-6-9-6-5-5
Judge #2) 9-14-12-10-13-8-9-7-14
Judge #3) 12-6-5-9-7
1.3 1.33 173.68
Qualifier
Henrie Smit
Judge #1) 6-6-7-5-5-7-6-5-7-5-5-5-7
Judge #2) 6-5-5-6-5-6-9-6-7-6
Judge #3) 6-5-6-6-8-5-5-6-7-6-5-13-6-6-5-9
1.26 1.33 160.70
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Scott
2172 posts
May 24, 2009
12:13 PM
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Mike, myself and Jack Meyers judge very simular, yet we can easily be 50 points off on a 300 point fly, but it still won't chang the standing of the fly.
As for above , are the same judges in the same order for both flyers ? were all three experianced ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2173 posts
May 24, 2009
12:17 PM
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Here is another thought, if a flyer was real keen he would use a different type of pigeon depending on the judge, for a lenient type judge a Jac based type of bird would do the best.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
2126 posts
May 24, 2009
12:32 PM
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Scott
The best kit on fly day won the regional. Weather sucked on finals day of course. My kits for the most part are 250ish on a good day. Thats what I expect from a slightly right of center judge. Thats how I judge my birds.
Overall I have had scores from 0 to 506 when I was actually judging my kits with a stopwatch and scorepad. Average is 187 with probably 100 scores.
If we judge our own birds frequently we`ll know if the judge is a lefty or righty. When I was scribing for Hannes I was off his call by one break. After talking with Hannes I might be a little more discriminating with my calls. I will have to learn how to judge that tight first. It aint easy. Thats might be the thing,its easy to be loose.
I raise my birds to do what I like to see. Just happens that I can score 200 in competetion,thats cool. I`ll take what I gets me. I guess that the point of my post. I`ll take what I get.
Why worry? Just do what you do and put em up.
V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 12:48 PM
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Velo99
2127 posts
May 24, 2009
12:42 PM
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Another thought.
If I learn to judge like Hannes and get my birds to scoring 250 by a consistently tighter standard,will I like my birds better or will I be changing my program to benefit me in competetion? Either way will improve my program.
Without competetion there would be no standard thus the two are inextricably linked.
I know I will have more technically correct birds and higher standards to meet in my breeding program. Is competetion the goal or the standard?
Sorry for rambling.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 12:46 PM
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Scott
2174 posts
May 24, 2009
12:47 PM
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That is easy Kenny, whenever you raise your standards something is going to improve.
(Another thought.
If I learn to judge like Hannes and get my birds to scoring 250 by a consistently tighter standard will I like my birds better or will I be changing my program to benefit me in competetion?
I know I will have more technically correct birds.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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katyroller
405 posts
May 24, 2009
12:50 PM
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"Here is another thought, if a flyer was real keen he would use a different type of pigeon depending on the judge, for a lenient type judge a Jac based type of bird would do the best."
So what are you suggesting would be a good type of bird for a strict judge? Tracey
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Scott
2176 posts
May 24, 2009
1:55 PM
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Tracey, from what I have seen around the country it would be the Starleys, Embertons also can do well, Mees OLD family, some of the English based stuff also like the RB stuff.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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katyroller
406 posts
May 24, 2009
2:20 PM
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Scott, I don't have any experience with the families you named. Why do you feel they are better suited for the strict judges? Maybe a cross of the Jacs and a family you named, so you wouldn't have to keep more than one family to be successful? Tracey
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donnie james
464 posts
May 24, 2009
2:27 PM
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i think its the quality of the judge some judge are looser the other judges jmho...............donny james
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2594 posts
May 24, 2009
2:53 PM
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We all know we may have a good day or bad day.....
Not everyday is the same ...
The factors could be the feed,weather..etc.........
The only thing is some complain about loose judges then turn around and complain about tight judges.
Just a hobby C-mon....Drink a f!@# beer and enjoy..!
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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winwardrollers
230 posts
May 24, 2009
3:47 PM
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Scott
Really don't think it is family based on what you would fly for loose or strict judge.....it seems that with a decent judge they find a winner.... that know matter how you look at it the top kit usually wins.
All families..... have birds that don't commit to the roll on any given day.
Scott Campbell of Ogden, Utah years ago had some Jaconette's that had better Quailty and Depth than most all birds flown in the region. Kitting problems was the reason he got rid of them.
Here is a score:
1.3 Quality X 1.3 Depth=1.69 total=54
5,8,5,9,5 Judge scores all movement that is scoreable.
Then a stiffer judge
judges the same kit.
1.7 quailty X 1.3 Depth=2.21 total=55.25
5,5,5,5,5, judge scoring the best of the kit.
not much differance in the total scores..(1.25)...both score reflect partially what kit was doing.
I think it is judge's not knowing how to us the Q&D factor properly that is my problem with the system...they can score junk if they give junk factors.
It is funny..... to see 1000 pts regionally then 200 points when the world cup judge comes around. Either a bad day or some one was loose with the pencil lead.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 4:03 PM
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Scott
2177 posts
May 24, 2009
4:03 PM
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Brad, most of the time you will also see the lenient judges useing goofy multipliers also that average 1.5 and up.
One time judging the Ca state fly I used 1.5 as average, it was a huge mistake as I had to score birds rolling like culls to hit the lesser multipliers.
I am not of the mind set that it is ok to score such birds and let the multipliers sort it out and hope that they don't beat out birds that represent the breed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 4:07 PM
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winwardrollers
231 posts
May 24, 2009
4:23 PM
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Scott
For the most part we have had...mostly decent judges in are area. We had one judge that was off a few years ago but the best team still came out on top.
I hope Hannes is a tough judge this year (sounds like he is) wouldn't everyone want that...those who are complaining sure are revealing the core of their kit birds...let them whine..lol
bwinward
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Scott
2180 posts
May 24, 2009
5:00 PM
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Brad, I wouldn't say he is tough, he just simply wants them rolling right and breaking together, and he doesn't give the marginal ones, now granted for some that means tough.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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gotspin7
2411 posts
May 24, 2009
8:10 PM
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Scott, there are just too many varieable's from the regional fly and the final's fly. I think regardless of any judge. Good luck!
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Sal Ortiz
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1915 posts
May 24, 2009
8:44 PM
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Scott
I think some of that could be due to the weather/hawks/timing, all played a roll in having something to do with the "best kits" not scoring high in their regional's, or not high enough to be among the qualifiers.
I also believe some regions are weak and don't have real stiff competition. They win their region but can't place in the top 10-20 kits in the finals. That has nothing to do with their judge.
There are al kinds of crazy situations that plague flyers on fly day. To blame the judge for everything may not be the only reason to why these regional winners don't score well in the finals.
For your example to have merit , the "best kits" would need to win their regional's first and very often that is just not the case and it is not always due to poor judging. The "best kit" could be hit by BOPS, High winds, etc. and a lesser kit win by default. Is that the judges fault too?
The better solution would be for each region to have several regional contests and the winner have the highest average score. Then we would NOT always have all our eggs in one basket till the finals?
In my opinion the winners of most regional flys have a lot more to do with lady luck than who judges and the same logic holds value as to who wins the finals. They must have good birds too, but look at all the variables involved and how luck plays into it. To have the best chances at winning any Roller fly you need good birds and good luck...... and yes a good judge.
Cliff
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macsrollers
78 posts
May 24, 2009
11:19 PM
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Overall regional scores are typically higher then the finals. I think this is partially due to the level of experience of most judges used for regional flies. I'm not saying this is a bad thing as the regional flies are where alot of newer judges get an opportunity to gain experience and the confidence to perhaps judge a final one day and face the onslaught of critics. Our small region has tried to bring in quality judges as often as possible, I have even paid airfare out of my own pocket on several ocassions so we could do so. We have flown in Doug Ouellette, Don Ouellette, and tapped into So. Cal. with Randy Gibson, Willie Wright, and John Vanden Broek. All good judges, in my opinion, with none of them very lenient when it comes to what a scorable roller is. Since we haven't been able the past few years to piggyback with other regions and our numbers are small we have had to use our local guys to save expenses the last few flies. Besides keeping cost down for some of our fliers who can't afford to pay much, another luxury of using a local judge is that if the wind is too strong we can vote to defer our regional fly to the next day or weekend instead of have to fly in unreasonable conditions. We prefer to bring in top notch judges when possible but logistics don't always allow. I can only remember one time where I felt the best performing kit on fly day in our regional flies didn't win, and that was with a non-local judge with a good reputation as a judge(it was not one of the judges I listed above). With so many regions in the same boat that means that alot of different levels of judges are used in the regionals so pretty obvious the scores are going to be all over the place across the board. As Cliff says, getting in the finals takes some luck, some areas more then others. The better your birds the more you enhance your chances of taking advantage of the luck of having good weather conditions and no predator attacks on fly day. Once you are fortunate enough to make the finals luck is still a big factor, regardless to the judge. The 3 times my son or I have qualified for the Fall Fly finals we have had to fly in 10-15 mph winds or stronger. That was the luck of the draw on fly day as well as a very small window to fly in with the judge being here for 5 to 6 hours of daylight before we had to get him to the airport for his flight. I understand a region with one qualifier can't expect to have the judge as a captive until conditions are perfect, but would be nice to have him from morning until evening instead of coming in the night before and leaving early afternoon the next day. Was nice last Fall Fly to have Eldon Cheney here for a day and 1/2 so we also could have some fun and get around to our group's lofts and fly some extra birds for him, as well as have a relaxing lunch instead of eat on the run. We appreciated Cliff's scheduling on that! This is my first time qualifying for the WC finals and the judge gets in the night before fly day looks like we have to have him back to the airport around 1PM. We'll see how the wind blows that morning!
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RodSD
254 posts
May 24, 2009
11:28 PM
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That is why I prefer multi-judges. Let them average their scores and that would be the final score.
I think this thread is about the quality of judges.
Because judges are not robots, but humans, they may score differently. The way to prevent this is to rotate judges for certain areas.
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pigeon pete
308 posts
May 25, 2009
6:11 AM
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Dear Winward,
Your example:--
Here is a score:
1.3 Quality X 1.3 Depth=1.69 total=54
5,8,5,9,5 Judge scores all movement that is scoreable.
Then a stiffer judge
judges the same kit.
1.7 quailty X 1.3 Depth=2.21 total=55.25
5,5,5,5,5, judge scoring the best of the kit.
not much differance in the total scores..(1.25)...both score reflect partially what kit was doing.
This Puzzles me somewhat. Why would a stiffer judge award higher quality points?
The difference between your two examples is minimal.
The loose judge that Scott is talking about would probably have awarded 10 or 20 breaks as opposed to the normal judge who gave 5 breaks.
I have flown kits that broke 40 times, yet only 6 or 7 were scoreable, and all the time I'm thinking to myself that this kit would be breaking records under one of those kind American judges,lol
Pete.
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Alohazona
625 posts
May 25, 2009
2:52 PM
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Pete,
Your starting to rub the American thing a little thin,what ever floats your boat.
Surely,if you had 40 breaks, and were hammering on the turns, rolling cleanly and showing the hole.That score would be respectable now matter who or where the judge resides.Conditioning or selection would be more on my mind, than who the judge is.Just a thought,lol....Aloha,Todd
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winwardrollers
232 posts
May 25, 2009
3:25 PM
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Pete
If I had birds that were rolling 40 times and only could score 6 to 7 of the times ....I would fill the garbage can my friend and start looking else were.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on May 25, 2009 8:46 PM
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pigeon pete
311 posts
May 25, 2009
3:35 PM
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Hello,
Are we feeling a little thin skinned today? ha ha.
How very dare you! I've never rubbed an American thing in my life.
Please read my post.
Surely if you did, you would have read that most of the 40 breaks were not scoreable.
What are you on? where does it say they were hammering ,rolling cleanly, showing thw whole etc.
I was not complaining that I should have been scored higher, (I am English after all LOL)
In your haste to defend what you think is anti americanism you missed the whole point of my post and the thread, which is that SOME judges would award the 40 breaks nomatter what the rolling was like, and this is why the same team can score 1000pts one week and score next to nothing when doing a similar performance under a different judge.
I only speak as I find, and I find that only in the U.S do whole regions get these very high scores in the prelims and then bomb out in the finals.
Very high scores in the finals, especially if the best in the world are on good form, can be expected from time to time, but even then we can get a finals judge that is over liberal when it comes to awarding points and scores everything that moves.
I'm sorry if I offended you, I'll try not to think of the U.S judges as kindly in future.
Yours in the sport,
Pete.
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Alohazona
626 posts
May 25, 2009
7:49 PM
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OK PETE,
I can see your doing a little back peddling here,so I'll keep this civil so that something can be learned from it.
First of all, I am very educated and I know how to read.I also know when people are generalizing and taking shots,in this case at the American judges.
Pete, we have a lot more ground to cover here in the states,so of course there will be issues,here and there[this is not an excuse,just a fact].
Overall our judges do an unbelievable amount of work to further this hobby here and abroad.
Also,If you READ my post without emotion,you would see that I was speaking hypathetically in response to an analogy of the way you feel American judges throwout high numbers at a regional level.It is only the finals that count.
Now you have also commented on other posts that the UK fanciers disapproved of this,thus the low turnout of UK fanciers flying the WC.So Pete, put whatever spin you want on it.There are all types of methods used on a regional fly ,especially panel judging.You are not talking apples for apples.
This judging thing will not be worked out on a pigeon forum,but rather from people who participate and keep an onward and upwards type of attitude.The method is chosen,and there is a winner of the method,whatever the score.
Pete,I sure you have been flying rollers long enough to know there is no on and off switch on a team of roller pigeons.Scores can vary greatly!
In 2004 PETE,Dennis Burke stayed at my home to judge the WC.He had just come from your area,and from judging your kit.He had told me of the rain conditions and how you were running out of daylight to judge your kit,in the finals.Based on that,was there a quality problem?
If you are there,and we are here,this sort of"regional misconduct" cannot be confirmed by your own eyes...HMMM....Aloha,Todd
There is a challenge in this sport,and it is not the judges.It is participation and an honorable showing"come what may"
ps. not thin skinned [maybe a little offended,but I'll get over it,lol], just fed up with persistant whining,take a chill pill......only poor sports will jump on this bandwagon,lol
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Bill C
357 posts
May 25, 2009
10:36 PM
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I was thinking the same thing Pigeon Pete, England came to mind and how some of the judges here will award 2000+ points. You are not off base at all with your comments.
For the most part I think it all averages out OK but is a little embarresing when the scores are so high that you know the judge is scoring any movement and calling it a break. The better judge has to work harder to score a kit, the lazy judge calls everything a break. It is really the depth and quality that should decide who wins when scores are based by either judge.
I think this is just something we all have to live with. In Sacto Calif area there isnt a fly very often or at all that won that was crap in the air. Big fly or local fly. So far in 7 years I think it has always worked out just fine for the best kit. Some birds definately look better in quality and depth but do not always have the big break but never has a lose judge made a the best kit lose im my oppinion. Bill C
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pigeon pete
312 posts
May 26, 2009
1:31 AM
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Bill,
Thanks for your constructive and thoughfull reply,
Pete.
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pigeon pete
313 posts
May 26, 2009
1:45 AM
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Alo,
Sorry mate no backtracking from me, I stand by what I said, you may be highly educated , in fact your post was way above my head, but you seem a little lacking in the humour department.
Maybe it's a cultural thing.
I did try to read your post but I could make little sense of it you must be far too intelligent to hold a simple two way conversation.
Maybe you or Dennis got a little mixed up about the 2004 fly, but I had no problems with rain or quality on that day. There was a very strong wind blowing, which 99% of fanciers would never release their birds into, but the kit aquitted themselves very well in the conditions.
The rest of you post is in a similar vein, in that I can't really relate your text to the facts.
good luck
Pete.
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turkey buzzard
102 posts
May 26, 2009
5:44 AM
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Just got off the phone talking with people who were at the finals with Hannes. The people who were there observing were questioning him why he did not score breaks that were observed by all. His comment was that when the birds broke they were not on the same wing beat. Now, I have judged many a bird with birds rolling at the same time. I can truely say that I have never in my 44 years of flying rollers and other breeds seen a kit with all the birds flying in unison. He also commented that the birds had to roll a minimum of 30 feet. What good are the rules!!! If we can't follow them.
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Alohazona
628 posts
May 26, 2009
6:15 AM
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Pete,
I'll let that one go as I'm sure you've had your bell "RUNG" one too many times,by the way you run your mouth....HA HA HA HA
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Scott
2186 posts
May 26, 2009
6:51 AM
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Now wait a minute Turkey, I stood under teams with him and every legit break he called, and they weren't rolling 30 ft, that post makes no sence at all !
How come you don't complain about the weak judges ? maybe that is where the crux of the problem is.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 7:32 AM
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Scott
2187 posts
May 26, 2009
6:55 AM
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Pete, we arn't the only ones to send such judges, lets not forget who started this silly scoreing Shite, and lets not forget about the other one from SA
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3449 posts
May 26, 2009
7:59 AM
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Weak and strong judges are both wrong....we need a centralist(LOL). Anyway, they're just pigeons, right?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2188 posts
May 26, 2009
8:02 AM
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No Nick, strong judges up the bar and keep it honest on what represents the breed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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turkey buzzard
103 posts
May 26, 2009
9:46 AM
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Scott, I am really allot different in weak versus strong. I believe that the same kit can score 2000 under a weak judge and 100 under a strong judge bottom line both those kits would be in the regionals/finals because the best kit on that day won. Ask Robert Parker what he thought of Hannes judging as well as half the other fliers in Calif. I have spoken to a bunch and after the fly they all left scratching their heads trying to figure out what the judge was doing. Why?
Scott why don't you come to Texas and judge I am sure I can arrange it for the WC or NBRC or the Texas Fly take your pick. I am also sure Nick wouldn't mind having you as a judge either so we can see how it's done and make us better roller men.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3450 posts
May 26, 2009
10:02 AM
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Strong judges, fine as long as they abide by all fly rules and not something they make up as the criteria that rollers are to be judged. Follow the rules! If you are allowed a half second for the break to be called scorable then so be it. Follow the rules.
Not the same wing beat.....WTF is that? I read and re-read the rules and nothing is said about the same wing beat....get real. Weak and strong are both wrong when they don't follow the fly rules(period).
We are starting to make this stupid.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 10:06 AM
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Scott
2189 posts
May 26, 2009
11:33 AM
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Carl, I am not all that concerned with you finding other flyers to share in the whine fest.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2190 posts
May 26, 2009
11:33 AM
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(Not the same wing beat.....WTF is that?)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2191 posts
May 26, 2009
11:33 AM
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Nick, I wouldn't be that concerned with what someone says that has limited English
(Not the same wing beat.....WTF is that?)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 11:53 AM
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0221
288 posts
May 26, 2009
11:40 AM
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Scott, Take it easy!!! they've got You studdering. LOL LOL.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2981 posts
May 26, 2009
11:43 AM
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lol............
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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Scott
2192 posts
May 26, 2009
12:29 PM
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I might add that there are others saying he is one of the best yet, Joe Emberton being just one of those, hmmm
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
314 posts
May 26, 2009
4:11 PM
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Scott,
I had the SA judge in mind when I mentioned the liberal finals judge, but I didn't want to start a war with SA as well,lol
What we need is sensible judges who know what they should be looking for. I don't care what anyone says about it all evening out, a judge that is to loose or too hard can eliminate the best team, and if I have to explain it then the simple way of putting it is:-
The loose judge can (but not always will) eliminate a quality team by putting a team through that is marginal for depth/and/or quality, but usually quality or is not really breaking simultaneously so that in the finals the judge may decide that it is not scoreable.
The too hard judge MAY put through a very high quality team of rollers that are too seldom to score highly under an average judge.
The too hard judge is more difficult to critisise, after all he is trying to put the best rollers at the top.He may be hard on quality, and so dismiss a good frequent team with scoreable (under most judges) rolling.
He may be too hard on depth with the same result.
He may, like some judges are wont to do, be making his own rules, such as not scoring a break till all the kit is back together, or some other 'hard core' belief that he has. A hard judge paradoxicly may be hard on quality, and depth, but forgiving of a bit of waterfalling, and in his quest to put the highest quality rollers through, will demote the best team.
A judge who takes the senisible aproach by scoring breaks that to his eye are instantly started by the scoring birds, is only scoring decent rollers, not raggy assed, or twizzling rollers, and not just scoring the balled up blurs, and most importantly is scoring according to the rules, will put the team through that stands the best chance in the finals.
There are teams of quality rollers, and there are quality teams of rollers, the first may not be able to score highly, and it is after all a team competition.
The quality team has it all, and should win through with a judge that knows what a decent roller performs like.
Pete.
P,S, not sure who started it,(the silly scoreing thing) but it has to end right now! LOL
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Alohazona
632 posts
May 27, 2009
2:38 PM
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It will be interesting to see how Hannes will score our Hawaii qualifier.....Aloha,Todd
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JMUrbon
699 posts
May 27, 2009
8:26 PM
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From a distance Todd
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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