Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3482 posts
Jul 29, 2009
7:51 PM
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Do you know what you are doing with your best bird/s? Are you flying them to prove them out? Are you breeding them to enhance their best traits and spread them throughout your loft? Do you try out your best cocks on all your hens?
Have you broken down the primary traits within your stock and found any lacking? If so what are you doing to correct that? Have you ever thought about a creating a sequential order of traits that would help organize and guide what you see in your stock so that decisions about selection and breeding are a little more scientific than pure guesswork?
I just wanted to put these thoughts out there to cause some to start thinking more about why they keep the birds they do and how they think they are going to use them to advance their breeding program to produce what in an intelligent way.
Have you had your stock long enough to know what your birds are capable of? If so, what keeps you from producing quality in greater numbers?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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donnie james
629 posts
Jul 29, 2009
8:44 PM
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hay tony my blue almonds is doing me a good job....and this year is for the tom monson birds to fly them out and see what happens and maybe i'll change the around next breeding season and see how that goes ..........donny james
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
418 posts
Jul 29, 2009
9:31 PM
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I haven't a clue lol
But I am trying, and will take my lumps, Hardest part is not knowing what you really have as a newbie. I am breeding from birds others have said are good, seen a few fly, but is a coule flies enough to evalute.
It is fun watching them ball up and roll. Hopefully my young birds wil tell me I did something right.
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RT Williams
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lil_jess
165 posts
Jul 29, 2009
9:46 PM
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Donnie james, I always wanted to see some of your blue almond picture...please email it to me...
yaj_lil_jess23@yahoo.com
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Home of the Admiration Of Flying Performing Pigeon...
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roller alley
155 posts
Jul 29, 2009
9:52 PM
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good eavening TONY.my main bird was a bluebar cock.he was mated to about six hens,before he flew the coop,his young are still flying and are my main part of my breading program.i have found a couple of faults in them,some come in to early and others do deteriorate as they mature,to correct this i take notes on how early they come in,so i wont mate the parents anymore or the young,i keep a short suply of birds and am breding on only 4 main pairs, then i foster when necesary.i have my own line and am very happy on what i do see in them when they are properly maintained in training,but am about 1year behind in beaing ready for comp,but am not going to rush to the the goal
thanks LJ
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Bill C
416 posts
Jul 29, 2009
10:10 PM
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Yes, Yes, Yes to all those questions, the last question is a bit audacious though suggesting that if you have your birds long enough, you are not getting the quality in quantity you want. Says who? I certainly am happy with my birds after having them long enough.
I understand you to say " I am just trying to get you to think about why you keep the birds you do...ect.
I think most guys do not keep their birds long enough before they think the grass is always greener over their. There is a huge difference in birds depending on who you get them from. I would recommend that you get birds only from a guy who has had them for many years who has a proven bloodline or started from a foundation pair and has a inbred or linebred family. This way you can get some really good squeakers to breed from or fly out which ever road you are willing to try. Both get you to the destination but one is longer of course.
I do think you would be and are willing to help out a guys who buys squeakers and wants more from the ones he has gotten from you that he likes. I promote buying or giving squeakers to new guys instead of proven breeders which are most likely average birds to begin with. Who has 22 pair and is not giving away 21 and 22 down the line of which are his least favorite.
You could buy a squeaker that was the best bird the guy raised that year and if its better than his 22nd pair or 10th pair( 10 for those who say you should only keep 10 pair), he is not going to sell it.
I think most flyers in my area would say yes to most all questions but the last one is not focused on the new guy if he has had birds long enough. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2009 10:14 PM
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bman
698 posts
Jul 30, 2009
6:44 AM
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1 TRHU 4........YES
#5 "Have you ever thought about a creating a sequential order of traits that would help organize and guide what you see in your stock so that decisions about selection and breeding are a little more scientific than pure guesswork?"
Here is where we part. I don't rate individual traits in any kind of order. I am looking for the whole package when I stock a bird. Basically I have a go/no go guage when it comes to stocking. The bird has to meet my requirements before going into the stock loft in all categories. No I don't raise any champions. I am looking for a solid bird that has no major faults and almost no minor ones. Then I will TRY him/her in the breeding loft.
i would add the BAR has been raised each year.
I should also add the fact that the bar has been raised on
the basic requirments each year and the pecentages continue to rise.
I have been working with two families for 3 years now and have seen dramatic improvement in the percentages each year.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 6:47 AM
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XtraDeepRoller
13 posts
Jul 30, 2009
9:55 AM
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Do guys who ask others if they know what they are doing, know what THEY are doing? Nobody has all the answers where these birds are concerned, but some believe they do, or try to convince others that they do.
X
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3483 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:07 AM
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x, why do you have to go there? What is wrong with asking questions and getting people to think about what they are doing? What is up with you? What chip do you have on your shoulder?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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XtraDeepRoller
14 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:19 AM
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No chip, just my opinion on the topic. We are able to voice our honest opinions on this forum, aren't we?
X
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J_Star
2039 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:22 AM
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X, no I have all the answers (lol).
Tony, I have no clue.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 10:23 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3484 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:22 AM
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Yeah, useful opinions not underhanded slaps? Like your comment was.
So you tell me, what is so unknowable about these pigeons that can't be known, that others and I presume you mean me, can't know?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3485 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:31 AM
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What are you so afraid of when others have an opinion or spent time reading the pigeon literature, studying their birds and listening to other experienced fanciers and are willing to express and share informed opinions, thoughts and theories with others?
I may not have been a comp freak, but I know these birds, I developed my own family and know what I am doing with them. Do you?
What galls you is not the quality of information, just that someone has the ability to say things in a cogent way that you think sounds a bit too arrogant for your ability to comprehend? eh? You sound like some of the kids in the old neighborhood when I spoke over their heads would complain that I was "acting smart". Well boo hoo on you! When you know something it just comes out naturally.
Afraid you have been passed by and your "contribution" is falling flat? My opinion of you falls by the moment.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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bman
699 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:36 AM
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Another thread gone sideways!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3486 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:43 AM
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Hi Ron, sorry, but it burns me that little insignificant mr x gets to do his little drive by post and and run off and laugh about it to his flunkies and minions elsewhere in the roller world. Guys like this are starting to suck all the fun and community out of this hobby for me.
Maybe the moderators can remove his post and I will be happy to remove mine.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 10:45 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3487 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:47 AM
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I wonder if lil x can point out where I may have been wrong factually about something? From what basis is he making his little idiotic remark? His opinion? Well then we know what his opinion is worth now don't we?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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bman
700 posts
Jul 30, 2009
10:58 AM
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Sorry Tony,but you pretty well summed it up for me.
Back to your discussion, for me I don't beleive it is quite as "nuts & bolts" as you laid it out in your first post. And maybe you didn't intend it that way.
I beleive it has a little more artistic (for lack of a better word) ability involved. What alot of people would charecterize as "stock sense" and of course a good dose of luck can be involved in finding the right birds to move you forward. I guess answering yes to the first questions has to be qualified with I beleive that is what I am doing.Of course time will tell.But as long as I see progress in my birds even in small increments I beleive I am headed in the right direction.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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pat66
377 posts
Jul 30, 2009
11:05 AM
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Ron,PROGRESS is the answer! as long as you see it year after year!
Tony , You fell right into their trap! LOL Alot of us sit back and learn and just bypass the BULL____ posts.
keep up the good work! its nice you posts informative questions to keep everyone on their toes!
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Pat
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1268 posts
Jul 30, 2009
11:34 AM
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Hey All, I am in my fifth generation of a line breeding program within an inbreeding program.
What I mean is, I am line breeding as close as possible but when I do not have the next generation as my best, I do not adhere strictly to the line breeding chart. I choose the best and closest alternative, as an example, a granddaughter instead of a great granddaughter. All the birds within my family are decedents of three birds, one cock and two hens with the secondary hen being a first generation daughter of the cock and a closely related hen. I also hold a firm belief that I must be picking from the air first. I have two hens and three cocks’ I consider stock birds. This year, I am in search of a hen to add to my stock loft. I have a maximum of fifty birds allowable in my program including the stock loft. With smaller numbers available I make considered chooses instead of shot gunning my way forward.
I am seeing improvement across the board and so far have had no detrimental traits from holding this closely to my program. Unfortunately, just when my efforts were starting to pay off, a female Cooper’s hawk is pouncing on me. Therefore, I am in lock down at the very high point of training. My intent is to hold closely to line breeding while maintaining quality and improving in every aspect I can. The largest impediment I have found is, I tend to have favorites and this clouds my judgment.
Do I know what I am doing, not entirely, but I hope I am learning?
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3488 posts
Jul 30, 2009
11:50 AM
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LOL, Pat, you are right! Fell for the trap! But I felt this little funsucker needed to hear me respond to the petty remark.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3489 posts
Jul 30, 2009
11:54 AM
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Thom, your having a plan sets a standard and that is the basis in which to make improvement, whether its business or rollers. Sounds like you are making progress. Having favorites is a difficult proposition. I too have had favs and one or two that didn't work out. Wasted too much time and effort! Now all my birds have to show me the money! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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J_Star
2040 posts
Jul 30, 2009
11:55 AM
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The way I see it, mating birds or animals together is an art of itself just like people are good artist who can whip a drawing like a wiz and others who can not even draw two lines together. Selection and matching birds are two big words which are used constantly among the hobbyists, however, everything after that hinges on the success of the selection and matching you make. To me, to be able to make a wise selection and matching, you have to have great knowledge of the inter-working of the birds you are working with, otherwise, it is just guess work is applied which I call it “The Shotgunning Technique”. There is a certain technique that I follow in the mating process to allow me to evaluate the progress in the air. You may not believe this, but I personally feel happy when I get few rolldowns a year from the breeders. I thrive for that. Crazy isn’t!
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM
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Scott
2425 posts
Jul 30, 2009
12:37 PM
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Actualy this is a very valid question that X brings up, one thing that I have noticed is that when you are in an area loaded with poor quality birds it is because of respected flyers in that area accept poor quality as acceptable , it is really that simple.
And the same holds true in the pockets where you see the higher percentages of top quality birds, the respected flyers have a higher standard
For myself I find nothing aesy about this complex breed, and every time I think I have made good progress I get my pecker thrown in the dirt and stomped on.
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 2:40 PM
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Scott
2426 posts
Jul 30, 2009
12:41 PM
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Jay, this makes no sence to me what so-ever, lack of control has nothing to do with a bird that is just simply loaded with roll with the mental and phyicle strength to handle it.
(but I personally feel happy when I get few rolldowns a year from the breeders. I thrive for that. Crazy isn’t! )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3490 posts
Jul 30, 2009
12:45 PM
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Jay, what you say rings true to me. I think your your post has to lead one to think beyond the pithy "best to best" phrase and cause one to dig deeper and develop understanding of the subtleties within our birds and how they lay impact to the aerial standard.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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roller_boi
58 posts
Jul 30, 2009
1:21 PM
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1. dont breed anything not worth breeding
2. CULL HARD
3. use CULLs for fostering
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<< roller_boi >>
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XtraDeepRoller
15 posts
Jul 30, 2009
1:40 PM
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Scott,
That's what I was trying to convey in my post.
I think I'll keep my pecker out of the dirt though, Tony would probably be the one to stomp on it. LOL.
X
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toughrollers
201 posts
Jul 30, 2009
2:26 PM
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x sounds like you have issues. most likley,you will stomp on it yourself.
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Toughrollers--Lofts
Ralph
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3491 posts
Jul 30, 2009
2:41 PM
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Scott, perhaps I am wrong, but I think lil x had something and someone else in mind…than where you went with your post. However, I am with you to a certain degree. But I have yet to be convinced that the only way to have quality birds is to fly competition.
Here is what I mean; how hard is it to recognize the differences in a pigeon rolling like such and knowing which one is more valuable to fly or use in a breeding program?:
><
X
H
(-)
This is a mechanical observation, its not mystical or magical. Birds twisting and fluttering are all mechanical as well. Any physical action we observe is mechanical, therefore, anyone should be able to discern and distinguish between traits and judge one superior to another.
To keep this short and simple, from what I have watched and experienced as far as competition, the best prepared, conditioned kit that can produce at least one to one and a half breaks a minute has the best chance of winning or placing high if all flyers have the same or similar conditions. So on any given Sunday…
Now with the aerial standard as the benchmark for the BR, do comp flyers have a better understanding and keener sense of observation than those flyers that do not compete but yet choose to dedicate their efforts toward breeding to the aerial standard?
Now if for some, competing makes them pay closer attention to the birds and what they are doing with them improves their results, then its just a matter of motivation toward the standard that is question, not that competing inherently makes one a better judge of birds. But if a competitor is going to brag about how good his birds are, he better win some…
For some, they need the external pressure from competition that it provides; others are motivated out of sheer desire to fly the birds to the aerial standard.
Scott, what are the comp flyers doing different that ensures they will breed and fly birds to the aerial standard whereas breeders who fly with the aerial standard as their goal do not? You probably have some valid points to make on this and I look forward a rational response. No knee-jerk reactions. lol
Personally, I enjoy watching my birds throughout the year because I know what they can do, but being judged for all time from 4 or 5 comp flys that amounted to about 2 hours of total fly time over a 5 or 6 year period seems like overkill to me. But what can I say? There are funsuckers everywhere.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 3:27 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1269 posts
Jul 30, 2009
3:12 PM
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Tony, Saying so, is rational, but in matters of the heart,(my favorites) I have no common sense. The stock loft however is off limits to my prejudice heart and is the domain of my indecisive mind! :)
What did I say? :)
thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3492 posts
Jul 30, 2009
3:29 PM
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LOL, Thom so what you are saying is that you are a dual purpose roller man? lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2427 posts
Jul 30, 2009
3:39 PM
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Scott, perhaps I am wrong, but I think lil x had something and someone else in mind…than where you went with your post. However, I am with you to a certain degree. But I have yet to be convinced that the only way to have quality birds is to fly competition.
(Tony, competition will allways move you to a higher standard as long as the standard is mantained, the drive is never ending)
Here is what I mean; how hard is it to recognize the differences in a pigeon rolling like such and knowing which one is more valuable to fly use in a breeding program?:
><
X
H
(-)
This is a mechanical observation, its not mystical or magical. Birds twisting and fluttering are all mechanical as well. Any physical action we observe is mechanical, therefore, anyone should be able to discern and distinguish between traits and judge one superior to another.
(it takes a lot of work and time to develope an eye to see the mechanics of the roll, watch any large group under the birds and listen to the OHHHH'S over some deep wing switching over active cull.)
To keep this short and simple, from what I have watched and experienced as far as competition, the best prepared, conditioned kit that can produce at least one to one and a half breaks a minute has the best chance of winning or placing high if all flyers have the same or similar conditions. So on any given Sunday…
Now with the aerial standard as the benchmark for the BR, do comp flyers have a better understanding and keener sense of observation than those flyers that do not compete but yet choose to dedicate their efforts toward breeding to the aerial standard?
(over all absolutly, of coarse there are exceptions both ways)
Now if for some, competing makes them pay closer attention to the birds and what they are doing with them improves their results, then its just a matter of motivation toward the standard that is question, not that competing inherently makes one a better judge of birds. But if a competitor is going to brag about how good his birds are, he better win some…
( it is rare that you will see hard core competitors bragging about their birds,like I have said it many times, these birds will make you look stupid in a heart beat and your experianced competitors know this, but on the same hand backyard flyers can't touch them for quanity of quality when all is right, that is a fact)
For some, they need the external pressure from competition that it provides; others are motivated out of sheer desire to fly the birds to the aerial standard.
(sounds good on paper, but it just isn't so,and is why either projects come into play or pedigree breeding)
Scott, what are the comp flyers doing different that ensures they will breed and fly birds to the aerial standard whereas breeders who fly with the aerial standard as their goal do not?
(one is talk and one isn't, as you have seen I have no problem calling the talkers into the ring, and as always there is nothing but excuses.
Some of these are what instigated the "Put Up Or Shut-Up Fly" in LA)
You probably have some valid points to make on this and I look forward a rational response. No knee-jerk reactions. lol
Personally, I enjoy watching my birds throughout the year because I know what they can do, but being judged for all time from 4 or 5 comp flys that amounted to about 2 hours of total fly time over a 5 or 6 year period seems like overkill to me. But what can I say? There are funsuckers everywhere.
( Tony ,it aint easy , but there is a reason why some flyers are worth worrying about while others are a non-issue)
Scott
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jul 30, 2009 3:52 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3493 posts
Jul 30, 2009
3:47 PM
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Scott, we just can hardly find anything to disagree on! I will be sending you an email tomorrow, I have something I want to ask you to do for me if you wouldn't mind.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2428 posts
Jul 30, 2009
3:52 PM
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Allways a pleasure to hear from you Tony.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3494 posts
Jul 30, 2009
4:09 PM
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Thanks!!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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RodSD
309 posts
Jul 30, 2009
6:13 PM
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I know what I want. The problem is getting there because we are still at the mercy of random chance event. When we breed birds and expecting some wanted results, sometimes, if not usually, it doesn't turn out what we wanted because again of that random thing. So we have to use our knowledge of breeding (inbreeding, linebreeding, outcrossing). Yet still, best birds are hard to come by. That is not unusual. It is easier to breed average birds. Harder to get champion birds. I think it is the law of normal distribution or having that bell shape curve.
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J_Star
2041 posts
Jul 31, 2009
5:08 AM
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Not really Scott. If you think about it a little deeper from different prospective, it will make lots of sense. There is a difference also between a rolldown from the first year and a rolldown from the second year.
I also somewhat disagree with you in the sense that the birds will disappoint you and they can make a fool out of you. If the birds have the goods, they will show it even on their poor performance days. It might not be their greatest and they might be on the flat side or on the wing but you can tell if a poor performer kit for that particular day has what it takes or not if you have the trained eye. You can also tell if the fancier is a good manager or not by the way his birds fly and behave. You can tell if a fancier is sloppy, interested in the hobby or not by the way his loft looks!!
Jay
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bman
702 posts
Jul 31, 2009
5:45 AM
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Since comp was brought up and being a rank beginner I will tell you what comp has done for me.First of all the opinions of the judges and experienced roller men is invaluable to me. I want to hear their opinions without any sugar coating.Second it leaves no room to make excuses for flaws such as out birds or wing switching or turning away from the kit after a roll.Yea you can talk your self into how good your birds are when alone in your back yard but when you stand under another flyers kit that is getting it done you can no longer lie to your self. Even if on comp day when you have a "train wreck" there are lessons to learn. Third and foremost in my mind is what better way to spend a day that shooting the bull and comparing birds with people who enjoy the same thing.
P.S. if you can't shake your head and laugh at your self when you have a "train wreck" competition is not for you.JMHO
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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gotspin7
2492 posts
Jul 31, 2009
6:34 AM
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Competition is definitely not for the thin skinned. I will agree with Scott on this one. I also believe it helps you become a better fancier, breeder, trainer and the best part of it is, if you get out often to see other kits fly from top flier's and not just rookies, you wont sit in your beautiful manicured back yard TOOTING your OWN HORN on how great your pigeons are...lol.. It prevents LOFT BLINDNESS..The reality is why have a race horse if you will never take IT to the track, why even have a race horse?
P.S... Why have I found that most back yard flier's have more breeders than they do kit birds?
P.S.S....lol.. Tony, you are too rough sometimes.. Poor little x...
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 6:35 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3495 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:26 AM
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Ron, you bring up a great point about others truthfully evaluating your stock through competition, despite how it hurts because of train wrecks...where I steer in a different direction is the notion that comp is the only way someone will give you an honest opinion or evaluation of your birds.
For example, I trust that Scott knows what he is doing when it comes to judging, and if he were to come to my town and I prepared a kit or two for demonstration purposes and wanted his evaluation of them, would he or should he lie to me about what I put up? Of course I would want his honest constructive input on where the birds might be lacking in qualities regarding the aerial standard.
As a matter of fact, after his evaluation, I would ply him with his favorite adult beverage and spend a great deal of time picking his brain and gaining as much knowledge and insight from him as I could before he left.
My point is simply this, would his evaluation be any less important to me when he is offering constructive criticism or praise during a casual visit or during a competition?
==
Here is where a shift in the mindset of the local club could be so important to the promotion of the hobby and aerial standard...experienced roller fanciers through the auspices of the local club, could and should offer honest stock assessment to novices and new members.
Once a his birds begin to resemble the aerial standard and have demonstrated proper ability to manage and maintain a loft, he can then be invited to participate in flying competition, but not to score points to beat someone else but to be scored by a panel of 2 or 3 judges on how well a job he has done on breeding and cultivating stock that resemble the aerial standard.
For some reason, I feel like this guy would spend allot more time in learning and working his current stock and how to get it where it needs to be (Aerial Standard) rather than chasing down the latest and greatest winner of the holy grail to buy his birds.
In my opinion, this system of competition would reduce the in-your-face mind-set that pollutes too many in the roller pigeon hobby today. Is this possible? Yes. Will it happen? No, not if we ridicule our brethren who think outside the box and point to a new way.
People of new vision are either kooks or just ahead of their time…sigh… ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3496 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:32 AM
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"P.S.S....lol.. Tony, you are too rough sometimes.. Poor little x..."
LOL Sal, since I am no longer selling products to my visitors, I don' t have to always hold back on my true feelings or opinions in the hopes that some little funsucker might buy some products from me. LOL The Tiger is unleashed! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 7:33 AM
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ron
75 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:36 AM
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Ron
Well put,i hope you don't have shaking my head next when were standing under your birds.
See you next week.
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R.Luna/HDRC
LUNA'S LOFT
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J_Star
2042 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:37 AM
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I like the way you think Tony. Also need to mention that competitions have ill effects sometimes. It creates the notion of competitive atmosphere, however, it also creates disposable kits mentality and behavior.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 8:48 AM
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bman
703 posts
Jul 31, 2009
7:44 AM
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Tony,your casual visit could and should be just as produvtive.But how many times has Scott been in your backyard? Win your region this year and I guarantee he will be there.LOL(walked into that one lol) As far as the club goes I have been fortunate enough to fly with a club that is probably the oldest in the country with great rollermen. We fly every month,no scoring just an honest appraisel of there performance both on individual birds and the kit.Any chance I have to put my birds up for evaluation I'm there. Does it have to be comp? No but it is probably the best oppurtunity for most of us.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Scott
2434 posts
Jul 31, 2009
9:39 AM
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Not really Scott. If you think about it a little deeper from different prospective, it will make lots of sense. There is a difference also between a rolldown from the first year and a rolldown from the second year.
(Jay, thinking deeper is what I am trying to get you to do , refer back to that artical that Marcus posted by Easly, there is a wealth of informaition there of the mechanics of the breed)
I also somewhat disagree with you in the sense that the birds will disappoint you and they can make a fool out of you. If the birds have the goods, they will show it even on their poor performance days.
(yes and no,management is the key to optimim, it can be a fine line between a barn burner of a fly and taking them over the edge, or in other words "mismanage" .
If only they were that predictable, although without a doubt the better the team the easier it is, problem is those type of teams are hard to come by and even harder to hold on to once we have one)
It might not be their greatest and they might be on the flat side or on the wing but you can tell if a poor performer kit for that particular day has what it takes or not if you have the trained eye.
(absolutly)
You can also tell if the fancier is a good manager or not by the way his birds fly and behave.
(absolutly)
You can tell if a fancier is sloppy, interested in the hobby or not by the way his loft looks!!
Jay
(sometimes)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2435 posts
Jul 31, 2009
9:41 AM
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Yea why is that Sal ? and why don't they have kits to fly ?
(P.S... Why have I found that most back yard flier's have more breeders than they do kit birds? )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 9:44 AM
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yellowking
39 posts
Jul 31, 2009
11:28 AM
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Scott "I have noticed is that when you are in an area loaded with poor quality birds it is because of respected flyers in that area accept poor quality as acceptable , it is really that simple.
And the same holds true in the pockets where you see the higher percentages of top quality birds, the respected flyers have a higher standard."
I think Scott's statement is very important and very true. I should know, look at how many years Minnesota has chased the world cup and where they placed.
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Yellow
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 11:29 AM
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gotspin7
2493 posts
Jul 31, 2009
3:05 PM
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Yea why is that Sal ? and why don't they have kits to fly ?
Scott, It is beyond me...LOL..
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Sal Ortiz
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macsrollers
162 posts
Jul 31, 2009
9:41 PM
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Original Question. Do you know what you are doing? Everytime I start getting too cocky or overconfident in what I know about the birds I raise and how well I think I fly them something happens to bring me down to earth and make me realize we will never really know everything we can learn about rollers. That is the great thing about this hobby. I pedigree bred for years because reputable fliers told me my Ouellette stuff was gold with some of the best pedigrees around. Me, knowing nothing about rollers when I got them, took this as gospel and went that direction. I have been fortunate that I came out in good shape breeding birds by pedigree and not necessarily out of the air. Hard to move away from a favorite name or pedigree bird, or a top flier's bird. I think we all have experienced that. Randy Gibson got me on the right path. He taught me to take a cock and breed it to 3 hens and visa versa. If it doesn't produce some good birds, then get rid of it- regardless to the name or pedigree. Of course it helps if you have some proven cocks or hens to start this process with. Right now I know just about what every bird in my stock loft can produce, except the few I have stocked last season as I haven't bred them yet. But what works one generation may not work the next, or you may breed too far one direction and then have to go back another way to keep a balance of desirable traits. Do I know what I am doing. I am trying. I have been in rollers for 15 years now. I consider myself a Junior in High School in the roller school! Also, some guys are are naturals when it comes to rollers. I call Randy Gibson and my friend TJ here in Vegas naturals. They seem to have the knack. Me, I learn the hard way and it doesn't come as naturally to me. Many of us think we know what we are doing, but when you get too far in to that mindset then you are fooling yourself. There is a never ending learning curve! Enjoy your next fly!
Don M. Mac's Rollers LVRC
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Bill C
418 posts
Jul 31, 2009
10:24 PM
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I think that was a great post Don Mac rollers! It promted me to go see your profile and get to know you a bit but you did not have anything on your profile.
Anyway, good and educational. However, I dont know if you were talking Don or Dan Ouellette but I'm sure they would not have told you to breed from pedigrees.Did your birds come from one of them or were they sold as Ouellette birds? They have some Awsome birds. I am sure you did not mean anything disrepectful but was focusing on breeding from pedigrees. Worse than that is the guys who push pedigrees from birds from 50 years ago as if they have that same bird in their stock loft. See ya Bill C
Last Edited by on Jul 31, 2009 10:26 PM
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