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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
after worming, do i need to give them probiotics?
after worming, do i need to give them probiotics?
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steve49
143 posts
Aug 04, 2009
5:28 PM
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i wormed both my kits July 30, but didn't know i should be giving them probiotics after treatment. is this necessary, and if so what exactly do i give them?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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toughrollers
207 posts
Aug 04, 2009
6:21 PM
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you can give them pro biotics, any time. its good for them.and yes you should give them pro biotics after any treatment.
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Toughrollers--Lofts
Ralph
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steve49
144 posts
Aug 04, 2009
6:35 PM
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thanx. i wish i had known that so i could have done it right after worming. live and learn.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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winwardrollers
275 posts
Aug 04, 2009
6:37 PM
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Steve
Why did you worm your birds?
How did you know that you needed to worm them?
Bwinward
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steve49
145 posts
Aug 05, 2009
6:02 PM
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Bwinward, i was advised by Mike Rose who bred my kit to worm them. so far, everything i've read recommends worming once a year, and repeating about 10 days later.
basically, pigeons always have some worms, but worming them keeps the number low enough not to put too much stress on them. i suppose if they were kept indoors, worms might not be present, but they're in their gut, and when they poop the start the cycle again.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2009 6:04 PM
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winwardrollers
276 posts
Aug 05, 2009
9:12 PM
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Steve
"so far, everything i've read recommends worming"
I would not worm any birds....Where do you get the Idea that worms are in you birds gut?
The majority of the roller hobby worms for no reason....other than someone tells them to..who heard to from some else who that it was a good Idea..having no proof in the first place that rollers have worms
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 10:53 AM
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steve49
146 posts
Aug 06, 2009
1:22 PM
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perhaps we should start another topic with that very question, if pigeons have worms, and should they be routinely treated for them. i understand your questions, and appreciate the feedback, but sometimes prevention is better than a cure doesnt apply. if the life cycle (don't know exactly) of the round worm has been in existence for a long time, wouldn't you be concerned if in fact your birds did have them? i'm saying either don't do anything, or treat them. since treatment is not a very harsh experience, i would rather put them thru it than not. a good microscope probably is a tool i should buy, as then i could prove of the existence of these worms by simply checking their stools. and yes, i did get the info from an experienced pigeon man, who assured me that worming is not an option, but a necessity annually. hey, until you or someone else can safely say there's no reason not to, i'd rather err on the side of caution and do it. the following day after treatment, my kit flew and performed the same as prior to treatment.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3503 posts
Aug 06, 2009
1:49 PM
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bwinardrollers, I just have to imagine you are playing devils advocate in your previous posts.
Did you know a roller can have worms and not poop them out? In other words, a roller can have worms and you not even know it? Since animals cannot speak to us, we cannot ask them "where does it hurt my little friend"? Some of us have several dozen birds and to take each one under the microscope or to the avian vet to check for worms is just not realistic.
If you wait for a pigeon to start showing signs of worms before treating, the bird has already been suffering. Chances are, other birds have worms too. There is nothing wrong with staying out in front of potential problems.
Also, allot of flyers worm their birds before comp flys with no apparent adverse effects. I think you should explain why and how it would be bad to treat birds 1 to 2 times a year? Unlike an anti-biotic, I don't see how treating will cause any worms to build up an immunity since if there are worms present, they will be flushed out with the treatment? No?
Can you please explain your position? Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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quickspin
1055 posts
Aug 06, 2009
2:11 PM
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I usually worm the birds twice a year before and after breeding same time the flyers.
I give them a pill per bird in the morning and no food that day I give them water with epson salt the next day.
In 10 days I do the same treatment all over again to kill the worm eggs and give them epson salt again the next day.
Then I give them 4&1 4 1 week in the water after I'm done worming them. After I'm dome I give them BIO PRO in the water for 2 days. Not sure if this is correct but a homer guy told me this and he has been doing it for a long time.
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Ball Bearing Roller Loft
I.C.R.C
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steve49
147 posts
Aug 06, 2009
2:41 PM
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the main thing here is that if something is helping our birds, and its passed down from a more experienced keeper, are we to dismiss it since it goes against our own ideas? if that were the case, there would be no reason to send your kids to school, as ideas, opinions and fact are being taught there, and even though you may question some of them, it would be safe to assume that many are based on actual facts and passed experiences. now, i'm not saying question something that was told by someone, but you have to wonder what the teacher's motives are. there are some old wives tales, but c'mon, livestock parasites are as old as farming itself. as tony pointed out, checking each bird by a vet could be quite costly, and repetitve, as the vet would probably say "let's take the same course of action as last time." i'd be willing to bet on it. i studied 2 years of animal science, with the idea of entering a veterinary program, but had to leave school due to financial constraints. I can't offer any professional advice here, but this one regarding worming i feel pretty confident that i'm taking the right path.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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lew3015
27 posts
Aug 06, 2009
3:02 PM
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I Have been following this thread and wondering myself, I also believe in worming, here on the farm all the horses and dogs, cats, chickens and livestock have worms why not pigeons? I say if you don't believe, than don't worm.
Steve 49 asked in his 1st post what probiotics should be given after wards, no one has said yet, I also would like to know. Can anyone share this with us.
Thanks Lew
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 3:03 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3504 posts
Aug 06, 2009
3:27 PM
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Lew, Jay mentioned yogurt which many brands are laced with probiotics.
I would give my birds Neomycin for 5 to 7 days to combat any infection caused by the worms and then give either probios or provital for 5 to 7 days after that.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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steve49
148 posts
Aug 06, 2009
5:43 PM
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Tony, why would you assume your birds have an infection due to worms? that just may be over using antibiotics when not indicated. no problem if you're sure there is an infection, but otherwise, i'd be careful with overuse of AB's. we need to find out if worm infestations can cause infection.
i purchased ProBios, which was about $13. not as cheap as yogurt, but safe and convient. i also am using a vitamin/electrolyte in the water.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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winwardrollers
280 posts
Aug 06, 2009
8:58 PM
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Steve49 I am not singling you out individaully this is a general question/response.
I have seen new guys.. overdose the worming dose.. and then try to breed the bird later...the bird is sterile for half the year and have no Idea why the bird has not started to lay..Worming if over done is harsh to the roller..
We worm horses, pigs because we can see that they need it you can simply see they are lean and hair/coat is not looking good....but in the roller hobby we worm for no apparent reason..do are birds look unheathy?..do the birds actually fly better or is is just a hope?..No most simply worm not knowing what they are doing..or if it did any good....give your self a dose of it once or twice a year... some of you roller men my have worms.. do it just for the fun of it. LoL
Dr Workman has cut open birds over the year's and has.. never.. found worms in birds in our area....I am not saying roller can't get worms...just why try to fix some thing that is not broke and never was in the first place.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2009 9:08 PM
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J_Star
2060 posts
Aug 07, 2009
5:16 AM
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If you live in an area where it gets humid, worming is important. If you live in an area that is dry and hot, worming is not needed. Usually around the spring time when the rain creats lots of moisture causes the worm eggs to become active and if swallowed by the pigeons, then they will get worms.
Why do we tell and insisst on our kids to wash their hands after playing in the dirt? So they can not get worms.
Jay
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Shaun
891 posts
Aug 07, 2009
5:46 AM
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I've yet to read a convincing argument for worming as a matter of course. Anyone who's been around livestock can see something wrong very quickly. I've seen squat in years which tells me I have to worm, so I've never done it.
Someone, please come up with a legitimate, scientific reason for worming. Pigs, horses and what have you, aren't the same creature. I can certainly understand the need for treatment where there might be something contagious which could spread across a loft, but otherwise I just don't get worming.
Where I live, the UK climate is wet but often dry, warm but often cold - a varying climate which could easily propagate every lurgy under the sun (probably the same in many parts of the UK). Is worming really necessary (pharmaceutical suppliers need not respond) and, if so, why?
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3506 posts
Aug 07, 2009
6:23 AM
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Shaun, I don't think anyone is TELLING you to worm, only that each has his reasons and rational for doing it or not doing it.
Here is my story. Once, I saw one of my birds looking funky, it did not respond to the normal 4in1 med routine, so then I decided to go with the wormer and treated the flock, that bird pooped out several ascarids and began looking better within several hours. The next day he looked practically like his old self.
BTW, about 4 other birds that LOOKED HEALTHY also pooped out ascarids! Now that made me stop and think.
Like I alluded to before, animals cannot voice their aches and pains to you, so therefore you have to pay attention, however, when illness or disease is sub-clinical (not showing obvious signs) you will not see the indications of disease, but it could be only a matter of time before the entire flock could comes down with some awful, hard to treat disease.
Therefore, some are of the opinion that preventative care, especially of a type which is not too severe on the "patient", is practical and reasonable.
I don't think anyone here is telling anyone they are supposed to do anything, merely relaying their experiences, influences and what they do or would do.
But Shaun, let me throw the question back at you, what is the legitimate, scientific reason to not worm if you have one?
PS Worm eggs can spread through the feces on the ground that the birds pick through looking for grains and such. So worms can and do spread throughout a loft.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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J_Star
2063 posts
Aug 07, 2009
6:40 AM
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Pigeons won’t get sick and start puke their head off. Rather, you will start noticing that the birds start lose weight rapidly or they are always hungry even after giving them their normal daily ration. Or the birds act like they are extremely hungry when you are about to feed them knowing that the ration given the night before was enough to hold them over to the next day. You will notice that some of your birds want to land early or reluctant to fly or they started to roll down on you unexpectedly due to being infested with worms and their wing joints becoming swelled up and are painful for them to fly. Some people have an eye to identify certain things that will lead them to believe that the birds might have worms while others don’t. Some good birds might’ve got culled because they started landing early or rolled down due to their pain from the swelled up wing joints and due to the ignorance of their handler. People think that the birds fell apart after one or two years!! You can read through out the posts here that people advising others to put a roll down for a week and feed it good and if rolled down again then cull it. What if the cause of the roll down was worm infestation!! Feeding alone is not going to solve the problem. Remember pigeons pick on other birds droppings and they swallow it. The dropping could be from wild birds such as Sparrows, Sterlings or Doves that landed on the top of your kit boxes and took a dump.
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 8:22 AM
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lew3015
29 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:47 AM
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Jay- excellent post, very possible, I have seen a marked improvement in my birds performance in flying after they were wormed. I can't say it was all the wormer but at least now they fly a good long time.
Lew
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 8:50 AM
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Shaun
892 posts
Aug 07, 2009
11:20 AM
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OK, guys, I'm not playing devil's advocate here, but I need a reason. I should have said that it might be the same in many parts of the US as in the UK, rather than the UK twice. Sorry, pedantic is my middle name.
Worms is just one ailment which could possibly afflict our pigeons, yet it's the one which most routinely attracts medication. This suggests it's the one ailment which is most likely to be an ongoing problem.
That being the case, am I just lucky that in over four years I've not noticed anything untoward, and my pigeons have only ever had a dry loft, good food, clean water and grit? Certainly, I've had the odd pigeon which has been ill and either died or recovered. However, if I were to adopt the approach that I need to cover myself for every conceiveable ailment which could hit my birds, then why stop at worming?
Tony, you say that everyone has a reason for worming or not. I reckon that many do so simply because they're advised to. Some also will religiously vaccinate against the likes of PMV. Where do we stop? Irreplaceable breeders perhaps should be shrouded in a blanket of caution, but flocks of pigeons showing no signs of disease, discomfort or distress?
To worm a flock of pigeons as a matter of course doesn't make sense to me - yet I do appreciate that many do it. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why and maybe I should be doing so as well.
Reading Jay's post above - well, that's exactly where I'm coming from... birds losing weight, overly hungry despite being fed... landing early... these are often symptoms of ill birds. In those circumstances, I'd be at the front of the queue phoning the medicine man. However, in the absence of such symptoms, I still don't get why worming should be the default rather than a reaction to an obvious problem.
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3509 posts
Aug 07, 2009
11:42 AM
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Shaun, I am glad you don't advocate the devil! LOL
It is apparent worms can reside in a pigeon without the requisite weight loss and complications for a period of time, all the while spreading throughout the loft.
So how does that make you feel that it is possible that right now, your birds could be slightly infected (or not) but because they are sub-clinical, the signs are not apparent. In the meantime, the worm is spreading...
I think that is the crux of it. What is your level of tolerance or comfort with the knowledge that right now your birds may have worms and is spreading. With a twice annual treatment, the potential risk is greatly or completely eliminated.
Our choice to treat or not, is determined, I think, by the degree of risk we are willing to subject our birds to and what we are willing to deal with in remedying the problem should a loft outbreak occur.
Because your finest roller can die from worms or ensuing infections if you don't catch it in time, as for me, this is a situation where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Enjoy your birds.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Shaun
893 posts
Aug 07, 2009
2:05 PM
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OK, Tony, you paint a potentially bleak picture of a non-wormed loft and I'm not armed with any stats or suchlike to argue against the pro-worming lobby. However, I think it could be useful to hear from others who have done as I have done (which means bugger-all) and lived to regret it.
My wife tells me I'm like most men in that I won't face up to any illness and do the sensible thing and visit the doctor. I tell her doctors say that most men who do visit them are a bloody nuisance and should only knock on the door when they have severe chest pains or one of their testicles resembles a balloon.
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3511 posts
Aug 07, 2009
2:43 PM
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LOL Shaun, I am not part of any lobby, you can do whatever you want and I don't care. But should you ever get glassy eyed birds that give you a stare that says "don't you know something is wrong with me"? Consider worming. Or not. ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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winwardrollers
281 posts
Aug 07, 2009
2:55 PM
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Tony
You must have a big.. Medicine chest.. at Home.
Do you take medication yourself just for precaustion...No you only give yourself medication when needed.
Clean dry loft will take care of 99%of the problem as well as not letting the birds roam around the yard...
Poor manager.... would have worm problems..basically.LOL
bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 3:07 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3512 posts
Aug 07, 2009
3:09 PM
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bwinward LOL you are funny!! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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winwardrollers
282 posts
Aug 07, 2009
3:17 PM
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Tony
Lets just post.. worming rollers as the cause because of Poor management..lol
I have a reason or two that I would worm my rollers but it has nothing to do with worms...But if my birds had worm I would worm them.
bwinward
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3513 posts
Aug 07, 2009
3:20 PM
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LOL bwinward, you are now busting my sides!! LMAO!! YOU WIN LOL PLEASE STOP!! LOL aww man...sniff...you brought a tear...ahhh...better now
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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steve49
150 posts
Aug 07, 2009
4:51 PM
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ok, i've got to make an additional point regarding the anology that bwinward made to humans not taking medication unless needed, and pigeons being routinely treated for worms whether there is any outward sign or not. let's start with how WE HUMANS eat. usually, off clean plates, with clean utensils, clean hands, not a floor or loft that also has others pooping all over and the dried material spreading onto moist surfaces where the birds like to pick at. ok, pigeons don't use forks, pigeons don't think to be sanitary. our domestic pigeons are kept in close quarters with others, whereas wild pigeons are less likely to come into contact with large quantity of feces since they can roam about freely. the point here is, because of the way we have to keep the birds, its commonplace for some parasites to exploit the opportunity to breed because of the high volume of droppings confined to a small area, just what they need. wild birds still get worms, but probably not in as large a dose as their domestic cousins, who basically live in constant contact with others and their droppings. its just a war, where unless you take action, the battle will slowly swing to the side of the parasites. can we totally eliminate parasites? probably not due to the ease of reproducing in our lofts. so...take a prophylactic action, which is recommended by keepers whose birds have reacted favorably after treatment, and are better off because of it. its not like worming is going to mean every pigeon keeper is going to start battling every known bacteria, virus etc with a garage full of meds. its just one part of the hobby that responds well to treatment, and the birds seem so much better off afterwards. TONY!!!
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3514 posts
Aug 07, 2009
5:21 PM
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Steve, good post. Now when I think about what is actually recommended by many experienced fanciers, 1 to 2 times a year hardly qualifies as "routine" if you know what I mean.
Just a little precaution is all. Shoot, I have not had a car accident in over 30 years, but I still buckle up every time I get into a car! It all comes to ones level of tolerance to risk. Feel there is no risk, then no precautions, feel there is a reasonable risk, take precautions. Common sense dictates proper and/or reasonable use of antibiotics and medicines.
Steve, I think some are just trying to bust some b@*lls, keep treating your birds as you feel and believe it is needed, they're your pigeons.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3247 posts
Aug 07, 2009
6:56 PM
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I worm my birds but for the reason in JStar post 2063...
----------or if I get birds from some one and I don't know if that person lets his birds wander on the land I worm them for precaution mostly by the way I feel the bird on what I see. That's the only med I use .
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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katyroller
495 posts
Aug 07, 2009
7:39 PM
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I believe fanciers really need to start testing birds before relying on the meds.. Most of us have the means to have droppings tested but don't take advantage of it. A buddy of mine who races birds told me that he has cut way back on his use of meds. and over the years has seen a definite improvement in the overall health of his birds. Of course he still vaccinates for the most common illnesses because of possible exposure during shipping but he no longer treats for everything under the sun. He also doesn't try to keep his lofts sterile anymore.
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3515 posts
Aug 07, 2009
7:55 PM
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Tracey, good point, but how much will it cost to test about 175 birds for worms? And I don't know anyone who treats for everything under the sun. Do you?
Let's see, a $10 bottle of piperazine, used 2 times a year, yeah, that's over doing it. ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
496 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:18 PM
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Tony,
I wouldn't recommend trying to test 175 birds. What I would do is if I had 5 or 6 pens I would send in a sample(s) from each pen and if a sample came back positive, I would treat all the birds in that pen. If you move birds around alot then I'd probably treat all the birds on the property.
"everything under the sun" is merely a figure of speech. Seriously though, look in any pigeon supply catalog and count how many pages are dedicated to meds. and who the advertising is directed toward, it ain't Roller fanciers. If that doesn't do it for you, visit a good racing fancier and ask him to show you his medicine cabinet, talk about a small fortune. My outlook on meds. is that trace amounts are stored in the body and over time will have negative side effects on health. Now multiply that by 2 or 3 meds., plus who knows how they interact.
"Let's see, a $10 bottle of piperazine, used 2 times a year, yeah, that's over doing it." 2 times a year isn't much but are you possibly burning up the reproductive organs of your birds? How much are your foundation pairs worth?
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3516 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:26 PM
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"...How much are your foundation pairs worth?" No less than $10 a year on piperazine.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
497 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:31 PM
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Here is another way to look at worming and giving other meds. without testing first. If your Doc wanted to give you a couple doses of chemo to make sure you don't have cancer, would you go for it without him running extensive tests? There are diseases and illnesses that have to be treated with super drugs because folks didn't take the meds. properly or were too cheap to see a Doc and chose to self medicate.
I know of a local university that will test droppings for a small fee. I will try to contact them and find out what they charge for testing.
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3517 posts
Aug 07, 2009
8:57 PM
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Tracey, this is my wife Joni's way of shutting me up when I could not, try as I might, convince her of something: "...that's why you are you and I am me..."
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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winwardrollers
283 posts
Aug 07, 2009
9:54 PM
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Tracey
Your talking some sense now...."A buddy of mine who races birds told me that he has cut way back on his use of meds. and over the years has seen a definite improvement in the overall health of his birds.""
I use to treat birds when I first started and found that it is a continual process..I started culling the weak as well as the parents and have no use for medication...only once in a blue moon..healthier stock.
Poor management.. mainly = having to treating for worms.
take care..
bwinward
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2009 10:10 PM
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Shaun
894 posts
Aug 07, 2009
11:33 PM
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We in the UK can't get meds in the same way as you guys in the US. Worming stuff isn't a problem but Baytril, for example, would mean having to see a vet, or getting it under the counter - a bit like Viagra! What this means is, for better or for worse, we can't easily turn to a medicine cupboard every time a bird looks a bit iffy. So, the birds recover or they die. In my case, 99 times out a hundred they get better. The point though is they very rarely get ill in the first place, and never en masse.
Going back to the bit about the conditions our birds live in compared to humans, I believe their immune systems tolerate those conditions well, and so long as birds look and behave as if they are fit and healthy, then why medicate?
An old trick of racer guys is to put some dry pigeon crap in the drinker, to build up the resistance of the stock. I can't quite see our parents doing that to us as kids! However, as some sort of vague comparison, apparently little sisters of older brothers tend to have stronger immune systems than girls who don't. The reason given is that girls can benefit from the filthy play habits of boys.
Shaun
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winwardrollers
284 posts
Aug 08, 2009
7:04 AM
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great post Shaun
bwinward
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3519 posts
Aug 08, 2009
8:03 AM
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Shaun, another "old trick" is to allow the pigeons to pick through the droppings on the floor of the loft whereupon they develop immunities from the bacteria contained therein. No reason to drop it in the water.
That is a different issue than is worming. If you took away from my posts that any time a bird has a cough or sniffle I pull out the meds, you would be incorrect. That's you reading into more than was intended. I was talking about worms and proactive steps that can be taken and treating infested pigeons.
But I think you knew that. You're just having a giggle beating the topic to death. LOL Good one! ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Shaun
895 posts
Aug 08, 2009
9:02 AM
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Ha-ha. Yes, Tony, it may look like I'm yanking your chain, but really I'm not. I'm trying to look at both sides of the worming issue, then I can decide if I should be doing it. Looking back at the start of the thread, not only was worming deemed necessary but then probiotics as a follow-up. Surely such a routine, be it regular or a couple of times a year, deserves a good debate so people can make an informed choice?
Shaun
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katyroller
498 posts
Aug 08, 2009
9:28 AM
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I've already voiced how I feel about preventive worming so we won't go there again. To answer the original question, the answer is yes. If you have to use a wormer for whatever reason, you should follow up with a good probiotic or as already mentioned a table spoon of natural yogurt in the water. :)
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3521 posts
Aug 08, 2009
9:39 AM
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Shaun, a good debate is an awesome thing. In my opinion, I think it comes down to each persons level of comfort with risk. How I understand your position is that you are concerned that the possible buildup of chemicals in the pigeons body from unwarranted treatment causes more harm than good. I think your position carries weight in that type of debate when if a guy gives all his birds emergency treatment because a bird sneezed...lol
I am NOT advocating that at all. But a reasonable, balanced approach to keeping worm problems at bay. For me, the risk of allowing birds to become infested with worms is not worth it to me, when like I said, a twice yearly proactive effort can forever prevent the potential problem.
I understand that you will allow a bird to live or die should it become ill. I also understand, in the long run, this could lead to a strong colony of pigeons. Unfortunately, the bird you might allow die, could have been your best stock cock or hen. To me this would be an extreme waste of bird when a simple dose of piperazine, a spartrix tablet or 5 day treatment of 4in1 could have saved such a bird/s.
I would not argue that you do not have a right to do it the way you prefer, or that you have to do it my way.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Shaun
896 posts
Aug 08, 2009
10:57 AM
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Tony, I hear what you say. As I mentioned, though, the meds you've just listed aren't readily available in the UK, so whether we like it or not, we often just have to see what happens when a bird takes ill. However, I can't argue that by nature I do tend to just let nature take its course.
Of course, if something were to happen to an important bird, then a trip to a vet is always an option, so it's not a case of simply allowing a sick bird to die. However, I've encountered so few sick birds that I can only assume their medication/supplement-free diet is doing OK.
Tony, you will acknowledge that the counter-argument to regularly worming indispensible stock birds, is that it's debateable what long-term effects that might have on them. So, as a roller fraternity, shouldn't we be collectively asking whether it's better to treat the occasional sick bird which displays signs of worms, or whether, as a preventative measure, we should routinely worm them?
Are there any medical professionals out there (preferably well-acquainted with pigeon ailments) who could explain the risks from both standpoints?
Shaun
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katyroller
501 posts
Aug 08, 2009
11:12 AM
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Droppings Analysis Status: IN STOCK
Would you like to know if your birds are well? How about a unique service that hundreds have taken advantage of and are now “in the know”? Send in samples of your bird’s droppings and we’ll analyze them for you. Here is what you do. On the day you plan on mailing the droppings to us, this is the best day to collect them. The freshest droppings is what we want. Go from perch to perch, collect some of the floor or in the nest box. Put these fresh droppings in 2 ziplock bags. We want a heaping tablespoon in each bag. Put these 2 ziplock bags in a padded envelope, available at the Post Office or office supply store. Do not mail the droppings in a regular envelope. We will have these droppings tested and in 3 or 4 days after we get the samples, we’ll call you with the results. It would be helpful if you could describe your pigeon’s health problems. If only 1 bird is sick, you can bet the others are also sick but not showing symptoms yet.
Please mail express or priority mail.
#8000 Droppings Analysis (2 for) $25.00
I found the above ad in a popular pigeon supply catalog. This testing reveals if your birds have worms and/or other diseases. At $25.00, could test your birds twice a year and feel confident that you are treating your birds for what you know they have versus what they might have.
Tracey
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steve49
151 posts
Aug 08, 2009
11:58 AM
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so......what about my original question?
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Shaun
897 posts
Aug 08, 2009
12:17 PM
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Steve, sorry some of us hijacked your thread - there was a bigger picture and a new thread should probably have been started. I blame Tony.
However, didn't you get your answer pretty sharpish anyway?
Shaun
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katyroller
502 posts
Aug 08, 2009
12:59 PM
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Steve,
I also apologize and like Shaun, I blame Tony. Yes, you should give a probiotic after worming/medicating to help restore healthy gut bacteria. They are all pretty much the same so what brand you use is up to you. You can give a probiotic anytime, so if you haven't done it yet go ahead and give them a dose.
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3525 posts
Aug 08, 2009
1:44 PM
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heyyyy, it takes 2 or 3 or whatever! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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steve49
153 posts
Aug 09, 2009
2:31 PM
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since we're beating a dead horse here, i might add that most livestock breeders, for example dairy cows, always use prophylactic measures to insure their stock doesn't suffer from easily treated diseases. just go look at Jeffers.com which is a veterinary site, and see how many types of preventative measures are available to livestock breeders. commercial breeders try to limit their losses by simple preventative measures to try and keep stock healthy, with the idea its easier to prevent, than treat for illnesses. some things, like intestinal parasites are very difficult to keep from coming into contact with livestock, so periodic treatment is really the only sensible pre treatment. much better to keep an animal healthy, rather than let it suffer and die when it shows signs of the disease, but by this time, curing the animal maybe signicantly more difficult. i think everyone should deal with the situation of worms/worming in whatever way makes them and their birds happy. i was just shaking my head however, from reading here how some people seem to lay in the bushes just waiting to pounce on anything or anyone just for the fun of it. again, each to his/her own. i'm also wondering if any of the anti worming folks would be willing to attack their vets the way they went after tony. maybe i'm overreacting a bit, but this forum occasionally can get dicey. ok, flame away....
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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