nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3651 posts
Sep 04, 2009
6:20 PM
|
In the Pursuit of Good Enough.
Close enough for government work. Good enough for me. Okay. Decent. Pretty good. They’re alright. They make me happy and that is all that counts. Are these the words you are using to describe your birds and how you feel about them? Does these statements pretty well sum up what you are seeking in the performance of your birds?
These are the mind sets that create mediocrity in what we are doing as breeders and fliers of Birmingham Rollers and I can include myself in these many times. It is the kind of results we expect and become happy with and settle for. When does it start in our lofts? With me it began as soon as I took on an opinion, usually my own, and made it a fact about all roller pigeons in my loft and yours. I never really believed other peoples opinions to be factual except when their opinion matched mine. That is when I started to make my climb (descent would be a more fitting term) towards mediocrity in my loft. The results from my loft is of a mediocre performance because of my attitudes and opinions about other opinions and attitudes. Can you say that is true in yours as well? Eight or nine out of every ten can probably agree with me if we own up.
As long as we have these attitudes and continue with a closed mind in what and how we are managing our lofts we will always have mediocre results from our birds. The mind set should always be towards achieving excellence and that will not happen if we continue as is. Changes will have to happen if it is excellence we are after and not just good enough. Excellence will not come about on its own.
Many of us have ridiculed the proponents of eye sign basically calling it a hocus-pocus endeavor and just closing off the writings and the talk about eye signing from our minds. We might as well be deaf and blind when it comes to these studies. We need to open our minds up to everything and that would include eye signing if we are to achieve excellence. We need to re-explore eye signing with a much improved attitude and with an open mind.
Then there is the tail flex thing that I have heard people declare is nothing, but “bullshit”. Many of us have said that we can put the head of any bird against their tail. We did not take the time to realize it was a touch thing about the ease that the most flexible of birds can do it. Again, we are making sure that our birds become no better than mediocre because of our attitude.
What about size not mattering? Maybe they can be too big or too small. How many times have you heard or even said “at 300 feet you can’t see size anyway”. If we would open our minds and consider the things that we have written off as nonsense maybe we would stop flying mediocre birds and would begin to see excellence in our programs.
How about color balancing in your breeding program? What about balance? Length of keel? The list goes on and most of us have shut many things off and like me we are flying just pretty good pigeons and will be denied the opportunity to fly excellent pigeons because of our closed mind-ness. What is really bad about this is we make these choices.
I believe that those select few fliers who do attain excellence in their program do so because they have the ability and adeptness to consider most everything mentioned and discussed in their loft management techniques. It may be that many of us will never reach the level of excellence for the same many reasons that keeps a given athlete from obtaining excellence. Choices and a free will says a whole lot to us all.
If you are satisfied with meritocracy then you should continue what you are doing and question nothing. If you want to dislodge yourself from the grasp of meritocracy then we need to open the minds and reevaluate our techniques and give credence to those things that are working for the successful.
Now where did I put that book on eye signing…………..
Nick Siders
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2009 6:26 PM
|
Pumpkin Man
155 posts
Sep 04, 2009
6:54 PM
|
Eye sign, Pupil flex, tail flex, color, pattern, legth of keel, depth of keel, shape of head, length of leg, color of beak, muff, clean leg, ALL BULLSHIT. LOOK AT THE ROLL. PERIOD. Am I satisfied with my birds NO. Not until I get full breaks with balled up spin. I'm gonna ignore everything else and try to pick my best spinners. If after another year or so I don't have them I'm gonna go looking for someone that does have them. I'm not gonna ask what color toenails they have, color they are, length of beak, lenght of tail, color of gonads,and all the other BS excuses. They either spin or they don't. I got some H pattern spin and I'm not satisfied with it. I still think the whole in the roll or ball spin is best. Unless you have it your either satisfied or you're on a mission to find it. In my opinion fast revolutions is not good enough. I want solid ball spin. Until I get there I won't be satisfied. H,A,X,axle, more confusing BS. I don't want to see any wings, anny heads etc. Just spinning balls dropping. Who claims to have this? I would love to see it. I know I don't.
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1422 posts
Sep 04, 2009
7:09 PM
|
Nick, When we stop thinking, when we stop searching, we stop learning. I have witnessed questions dismissed because one person of note, said it was worthless. Small minds will never excel,we limit ourselves by accepting boundries. Only by refusing to accept self imposed limits can we move forward.
Thank You
Thom
|
donnie james
691 posts
Sep 04, 2009
9:43 PM
|
nick i have think on this for a while and re read it and give my point on it............donny james
|
birdman
728 posts
Sep 04, 2009
10:18 PM
|
Nick,
Don't take this the wrong way, but....ah never mind.
|
roller alley
178 posts
Sep 04, 2009
11:41 PM
|
nick loved it,up untill the 4th paragraph,none the less,we all do beleive we have the best birds.i visited a loft last week,the guy is realy cool but,he told me to keep my eye on a bird,when the bird hit it rolled about 30-40'.he was excited the birds speed was average but the style was horrid,a deffinate cull.he said my birds are deep an on fire,i was a visitor to his home and said wow..
this time around i didnt want to fall in love with the birds,i wanted to be serious,or give it up.i am happy with the progressive performance that i have been getting year after year,but i have more to go and wont be satisfied untill i stock more than 1 or 2 a year.if you only stock this amount then you are far from being perfect,and ive heard the best say they only stock this amount
thanks L.J
|
Electric-man
2447 posts
Sep 05, 2009
4:35 AM
|
Good write Nick! I agree!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!!
----------
Val
|
JEFF WILSON
23 posts
Sep 05, 2009
6:56 AM
|
nick i know iam new to this so my word won't count for much.before i had rollers i showed bantam poultry had to get rid of them because of crowing i live in town.to make champion row or to win the whole show. a so so or or a ok bird might as well be put in a pot you haven't got a chance and it will only breed more so so bids or worse.with the birds i raised from the very best birds i have and only a select few ever made the cut.by now they are thinking iam nuts and don't know what iam talking about.well think again i have been breeding animals my whole life and and when i set my sights on somthing i will achive my goals i always have.we have talked about thi on here before i rember fire fighter paul talking about breeding diffrent types of stock. it's all the same you breed from only the best.and you might reproduce it might!what iam trying to say is you should know if a bird should be in the breeding pen or not.when i was talking about my first kit being hit by a cooper i only had 11 birds at that time guys on here said you need to raise more birds well i know i do but iam not raiseing out of so so birds iam raiseing out of the best i could get.not on eye color or flecks or keel i picked them myself out of the sky the man i got these birds from has been raiseing this family 30 years he didn't tell me what to take he cut them loose and told me to pick what wanted he also gave me 2 pair that where proven we will see if i was wrong by what i picked the point iam trying to make is don't lie to your self you know if they belong in the breeding pen or not. jeff just my thoughts
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1423 posts
Sep 05, 2009
7:05 AM
|
I simply do not understand why asking questions in an endeavor to learn is perceived as bad.If raising outstanding birds were as simple as picking them from the air, everyone would have a loft full of champions. I certianly think a birds performance is one of the most crucial aspects but not the only criteria we should be looking at. Of all the topics Nick mentioned none may be worthy but what if?
Thom
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3652 posts
Sep 05, 2009
8:08 AM
|
"When does it start in our lofts? With me it began as soon as I took on an opinion, usually my own, and made it a fact about all roller pigeons in my loft and yours. I never really believed other peoples opinions to be factual except when their opinion matched mine. That is when I started to make my climb (descent would be a more fitting term) towards mediocrity in my loft. The results from my loft is of a mediocre performance because of my attitudes and opinions about other opinions and attitudes."
I can see this is alive and well by some of the responses to my origional post.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3360 posts
Sep 05, 2009
8:48 AM
|
Nick I learn many yrs ago never be satisfy with what you have go for better if not the best.if its out there is not beyond our reach..
----------
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
|
JEFF WILSON
24 posts
Sep 05, 2009
12:06 PM
|
i would rather take my chances picking a bird out of the sky that is doing it right with style than looking at a birds eye and guessing if he can or can't.no disrespect was intended for nicks artical at all it was great it makes you stop and think.i have three young birds here that are rolling fast looking good as far as i can tell they are doing it right but if you look at there eyes all you see is black they are bull eyed. should i cull them cause i can't read there eyes i don't think so! and i don't even like bull eyes but iam not going to cull them i have got over eye color.a birds performance as a roller and the way he works with the kit will always be first to me.my mind is always open and willing to learn.i have picked up lots of helpful hints off of this site.
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3657 posts
Sep 05, 2009
2:14 PM
|
Picking birds out of the air will give you the best performer on that day and you will get a sinse of style and depth. Now the more important decision is to decide who amoungst your best performers has the goods to go to your breeding loft. I too would prefer picking birds out of the air when the opportunity to do so presents itself and I would encourage that for everyone.
Once you have picked those birds out of the air for your kit box, that is when you individually study thier behavior and all of the traits they possess and see if there is a corralation from bird to bird. I don't expect you to cull any bird that performs to your standard for anything; bull eyes; web feet; or what have ya. What I encourage people to do is to observe them; handle them and look for the traits the best performers share.
I have found in the elite performance lofts of elite breeders that often thier best performer is not in the breeding loft because it lacks some of the traits the breeder has to have in them. These top breeders have found that there are traits they must have and it goes beyond performance alone.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 2:22 PM
|
JEFF WILSON
25 posts
Sep 05, 2009
4:42 PM
|
Nick i would never disrespect you i belive you are very smart about are hobby. you won't here me bad mouthing anybody.this last post you put up proves you know what is going on.the birds i picked out of the sky where very good the day i picked them you are right that dosn't mean they will reproduce or the crosses i made will click .but on the other hand you have to admitt i would rather take a chance on them then on someones word of what they would do so many guys have been ripped off it's sad a man's word use to stand for something.anyway ialso got 2 pair of proven breeder's he said to cross them just the way he already had them mated he didn't lie iam fly there young now and they are showing promise i know the others will have to prove there selfs as reproducers.nick coud you talk a little about the traits the elite breeder's look for in bird's they are going to stock in the breeder loft. thanks jeff
|
Scott
2513 posts
Sep 05, 2009
6:05 PM
|
Jeff, it is exactly the same with Birminghams , that is why it takes a few seasons to build a true quality team of birds.
(i showed bantam poultry .....with the birds i raised from the very best birds i have and only a select few ever made the cut.)
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2009 6:35 PM
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1424 posts
Sep 05, 2009
6:19 PM
|
Jeff, I'm getting in over my head in this discussion but I did want to end my part on this note. There are still men who's word stand for honesty and they are to be found on this list.
Thom
|
donnie james
692 posts
Sep 05, 2009
9:33 PM
|
hay nick i reread your post and thought about and i came up with is you can have all you said in your post and can be happy with and all it comes down to is how they do on fly day in front of the judge and what the judge see...........in another words the judge has the last word on your fly.............donny james
|
JEFF WILSON
26 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:26 AM
|
Scott i understand your message 100%. oldfart iam sure there are some very good roller men on this site that is why i read there post. well it is getting day light iam going to go fly a kit of young birds.hope you all have a good labor day weekend. jeff
|
katyroller
528 posts
Sep 06, 2009
8:03 AM
|
Pumpkin Man,
How did you come to the conclusion that such things as eye sign and tail flex are BS? Is this based on close study of a family of birds or like most of us, what we have heard and read?
I don't believe we can always write off such things as eye sign and tail flex. With there being many different families out there and fanciers breeding differently I believe that there are possibilities of unique traits that can identify excellent quality birds within a family.
Maybe because we have been told that eye sign does not work with Rollers, we have not bothered to study the eyes of our birds and missed a unique eye trait possessed by champions within our own family. By insisting on flying out all birds we could be feeding our very best to the BOP before they develope and show their worth. Maybe a birds true worth is not in the air but in the breeding pen.
I believe it is important for us to study the good birds in our families and learn to identify traits that suggest a bird has a chance of being a good one. True, flying out a bird is the proven method for determining a birds performance abilities but with the current BOP situation, maybe it's time to change our outlook on things.
Tracey
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 9:13 AM
|
pacos bill
97 posts
Sep 06, 2009
3:50 PM
|
NICK: Oh boy I got that I am gona step in front of a truck feeling again, but what do I have to loose, my clam to fame is not breeding rollers, but I sure like trying.
As I have stated before on this site, I have been breeding Rolllers since 1956, I am by no means a Bill Pensom, for or that mater, I am absolutely no body in the roller world, but for what it’s worth here is my tale of marginal to crap advice.
I agree with the fact that rollers can be picked by eye, I will stand on the fact however that it may not be the best roller in town but I would bet it will usually perform well.
I can’t explain how to visually pick a roller but I will try.
One the bird will have pearl eyes or a brilliant orange eye, my best had gray eyes with red lines like bring blood shot with large pupils, but when just taking a wild guess the best bet for me has been pearl eyes, old school birds are usually kind of long cast Pensom / Smith/ Plona type they even will have a longer flatter keel than today’s birds.
FIRST I look for a bird that has defiant spit in your eye look.
SECOND I look for eye color go for the pearl eyes the odds are better.
THIRD if the bird has bit of a gross legs, this points to early Smith and Pensom traits.
FOURTH the fastest birds will usually be round cheated medium to short in length deep keel med in length.
FIFTH the bird must well muscled and feel balanced in the hand
SIXTH feather means little to me except in the show pin, hard, soft, wide secondary back cover elect a plus but not a real requirement I seam to sucker for bronzing.
Now that I have proved beyond doubt that I am full, it just as I claimed above, In My own defense I plead these facts.
In 1956 at about age 10, my roller buddy and I would ride our bikes on a 20 mike trek just to buy junk rollers for a buck each from a guy named Garth who owned the Simi
Valley Squab Ranch,
He had what was known as the show pin he clamed that some of the stock in that pin were rollers and we could have our pick a buck each, we would ride out to the Squab ranch every Saturday and just look for hours trying to make the very best selection, in hopes of getting a roller for our hard earned money almost always buying junk.
This youthful experience provided of value to me, when buying rollers after a couple years breaks after loosing all my kit and stock birds. I saw an add rollers for sale, I traveled a few towns over about an hours drive to see these birds.
When I arrived I found that the owner would not fly the birds as he said they were stock birds. And were basically of the Reed / Higgins line, but had no pedigrees.
So in pure desperate plight, I picked by eye 4 birds from the stock pin, and one young cock which he thought was a hen from the kit box, which he would not fly ether.
To make a long stories short the FIRST pick a little black pearl eye, lightly gross legged hen perfect to my eye, She is very Good turned out to be a Robert Parker 2001 hatch.
Sad but true, all her young were hawked, not one made it thru the 06 season, none made it thru the 07 season, the 08 season I just put a couple of the young away did not fly them, they look like hens (Oh Rats).To top that she is not laying fertile eggs anymore, I am resting her up at this time.
The SECOND pick mated to the number THIRD pick bird were hot and fast very good rollers, I am now stocking their young the other two did not produce good rollers nor did they fly well and fell prey to the hawk when picked them they were on the big side and just about performed how they looked second rate.
As for breeding rollers I have never seen a bird that lives up to my personnel standard, I whish to find a pair that produce 35 to 50 ft deep 3 times a minute, and very fast, I know dream on, I hear that Carolina birds do this if anyone wants to sell a pair like this and I can see them fly not pick by eye call me please.
PACOS BILL
|
Scott
2522 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:01 PM
|
Which is easier to pick off of the perch, the good ones or the culls ?
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about ****fixed**** fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 5:34 PM
|
pacos bill
98 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:16 PM
|
A MEN!! SCOTT! The bigger the price the bigger the Testicles, its much easier to pick out culls because their is more of them, and their the same price.
I have a few come take your pick before they go to the all year long fly kit after the lock down.LOL
PACOS BILL
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 4:23 PM
|
Scott
2526 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:27 PM
|
Exactly Bill, the culls are easy, I could cull out a 1/8-1/4 of this past breeding season right now without ever seeing how they develope into the roll.
I can also pick the one's that have the greatest "POTENTIAL" potential being the key word here , then there are the bulk of them that lay in the gray zone where it is anyones guess.
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about ****fixed**** fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 5:34 PM
|
pacos bill
99 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:46 PM
|
The recent BOP problem has caused me to set brids a side very early just for their blood, and as you say potential.
I end up with less than 10 out of 100 young brids by the end of the summer being august.
I have one brid I stocked only one this year a 06 hen from the pair I picked by eye in 05 the fist brid I have stocked out of my line started in 05 , not because of the cull rate but the loss rate
I am now thinking of breeding for a 2 year life span, and for the birds to come in hard my 6 mo.
I will keep my old stock on hand to hold on to the real roller blood this line takes 3 years to come into its full roll, most dont live to 8 mo. what a mess. Pacos Bill
|
Scott
2529 posts
Sep 06, 2009
5:17 PM
|
fixed
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about ****fixed**** fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 5:32 PM
|
Pumpkin Man
161 posts
Sep 06, 2009
5:49 PM
|
Katyroller,
There may be some merit in what Nick said regarding tailflex, eye sign etc. But only after performance has been dealt with . For the majority of us that are probably not gurus we must look at performance first to select our birds. So far I have yet to hear any of the big names (Master flyers) back up the hocus pocus myths out there. If Jerry Higgins, Rick Mee, Don Oulette, Norm Reed, Jay Starley, Scott Campbell, etc, etc, all get on here and say yes indeed eye sign matters. I will start looking at it. Or tail flex indicates...So far the Pros have been quiet which tells me they probably look at performance first and everything else will fall in line. When performance isn't there I think it's only human nature to resort to the next best measures to evaluate our pigeons. Sorry I came across negative, I'm looking for answers too. I think sometimes we just have to be honest and say my pigeons do this and I'm happy with it. Or my pigeons do that and I'm not happy with it than looking to these other tools to excuse them from performing to the standard. I think there are probably less than 100 people in this hobby that have the expertise to apply a breeding formula that includes eye sign, pupil flex, tail flex etc., in addition to performance standard. I just hate to see newcomers to the hobby get confused to the point of giving up. It doesn't have to be rocket science. Just pick the best kitting spinners and mate them together and see what happens, why bog down in the menutia of technical guru breeding theory, just to be discouraged.
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3664 posts
Sep 06, 2009
6:45 PM
|
Pumpkin - I still do not buy into eye sign, but I am willing to reconsider it. I developed an opinion and made it a fact that eye sign in rollers does not exist. Now, there are others who believe there is something there and I am willing to give it another look becuase I want to grow and improve my loft. There are several things I am re-opening my eyes to that I had once closed them to.
If you keep doing the same thing over and over, but you see no improvement you have to change what you are doing. That is all I am trying to say.
If you want to know what these breeders you mention believe; ask them. You will be surprised to find that many of them will disagree with one another. You will find there is no concensus. You will be surprised what they do individually believe for thier own lofts.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
pacos bill
100 posts
Sep 06, 2009
7:15 PM
|
NICK; AS I SAID IN YOUR BE-HALF IN MY POST 8-06 at 3:50 pm above. I think you have a very valid point, lets say you have two brids out of the same pair that perform equal, and you had to let one go and keep one.
All the pick off the perch points would be very important. as I said I agree
see the post sometimes their is no chance to pick out of the air Dont Knock It Till You Try It Pacos Bill
|
pacos bill
101 posts
Sep 06, 2009
7:15 PM
|
NICK; AS I SAID IN YOUR BE-HALF IN MY POST 8-06 at 3:50 pm above. I think you have a very valid point, lets say you have two brids out of the same pair that perform equal, and you had to let one go and keep one.
All the pick off the perch points would be very important. as I said I agree
see the post sometimes their is no chance to pick out of the air Dont Knock It Till You Try It Pacos Bill
|
katyroller
542 posts
Sep 06, 2009
8:00 PM
|
Pumpkin Man,
You didn't come across negative, it's all good! I wouldn't try stuff like eye sign on a family that I was not familiar with. With an established family that a breeder has closely monitored, I do believe over time that he/she can start to identify birds on the perch that have the potential to be good birds. If I have a lavender pearl eye cock bird that tends to throw great lavender pearl eye offspring with any hen I put him on, then I would tend to feel confident that any lavender pearl eyes he throws could be good birds. It's not a guarantee but a chance I would be willing to take if I had to and didn't feel good about flying out the young. Like you said, the only way to really know the performance value of a bird is to fly it out. Good Luck with your program!
Tracey
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 8:04 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3690 posts
Sep 06, 2009
9:39 PM
|
I like to view my loft as a laboratory and that my observations and conclusions apply mainly to my stock as compared to someone else. My Ruby Rollers are the result of 16 years of those applied beliefs and opinion ranging from eye-sign, in/line breeding techniques, to tail flex to the 5 Primary Traits and my interpretation of the aerial standard.
In staying with one family of birds and not jumping from one to another, over the years, I have had a chance to see a wide range of birds out of the same gene-pool. This has been a unique and invaluable experience to me as it relates to the development of my opinions and views about the roller and my strain.
I believe an experienced roller fancier should be able to recognize good stock from average to poor within his bloodline if he has been paying attention to his observations.
To rule out of hand any of the types of traits that Nick has mentioned, is to potentially limit the tools at a fanciers disposal and never realize the true potential that may be resting idle in the gene-pool out of ignorance or bias because we did not like where we heard it. JMO
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
|
Scott
2532 posts
Sep 07, 2009
8:00 AM
|
One's own blood line has little to do with it,birds that is represenitive of the breed will be very simular regardless of the loft it comes out of.
(I believe an experienced roller fancier should be able to recognize good stock from average to poor within his bloodline if he has been paying attention to his observations.)
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
|
JEFF WILSON
27 posts
Sep 07, 2009
9:18 AM
|
i agree with scott and katyroller if you have a family long enough and do you'r homework you should see good and poor traits.they will still have to prove there self in the air for me though.
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3691 posts
Sep 07, 2009
11:57 AM
|
Scott, I guess I didn't make my point very well. I am saying it's all in the "process" each one of us uses to get to or maintain the bird that is representative of the breed.
My take is that Nick was referencing traits and characteristics that we may or may not dismiss as being useful or not especially when we may not respect the source of the information. We do so at our own cost...
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
|
fhtfire
2077 posts
Sep 07, 2009
10:43 PM
|
Good post Nick....That is why I always think outside the box....do I think the tail thing is total B.S....No..because most of my top birds have it..LOL...there are so many things that are B.S. in this hobby and so many things that work that people say B.S....
I remember a time when I was told not to cross...that F1's wont produce..B.S......Or Pellets to kit birds wont work...B.S.....the list goes on and on...but the best to all is to try for yourself and see if it works with your birds....not all lofts are created equal...not all birds are created equal...and not all theories are created equal.
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2042 posts
Sep 08, 2009
12:48 PM
|
Nick
Just as the Marines are looking for a few good men, the Roller hobby is looking for flyers committed to moving the breed forward. And just as few men are willing to put forth the discipline and hard work necessary to become a Marine, few are willing to do the same in order to excel in the roller hobby.
Today our hobby is faced with challenges unlike any days in the past. We must fly smarter and we must change with the times. Our young people do not appreciate the same pastimes as our grandfathers; the hawks have driven many men from the competition ranks; our towns and cities have more restrictions that can hamper our interest in Rollers, but still many try to enjoy our birds.
The NBRC thrived for many many years without a national competition. The Roller hobby has survived for centuries without a World Cup fly. The backyard Roller enthusiast is the backbone of the hobby. Their numbers dominate the membership and from their ranks, many new competition flyers are born. The Roller hobby needs both, the backyard flyers and the competition flyers.
Ours is an interesting sport. The best flyer among us, with the best of understandings about Rollers, can be forced from the hobby by a handful of hawks. A kit of 60 foot smokers can get "no score due" to inclement weather. A flyer with limited knowledge and mediocre birds can get to the finals because of good weather, luck, and his geographical location.
The knowledge we gain from our birds is usually SPECIFIC to "OUR" birds and seldom translates 100% to another man's birds, what works for one may not work in the next region, in the next state, or right next door.
We all have different levels of interest in different aspects of the Roller hobby. One flyer may prize style over velocity; the next depth over frequency. One flyer must see the "hole", the next must have full turns.
Each of us is enjoying the sport of Roller flying in his own way. Your "encouragement" to seek different ways to improve our birds is heartfelt and honest. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Cliff
|
katyroller
548 posts
Sep 08, 2009
5:27 PM
|
Cliff,
Bravo, very well stated my friend!
Tracey
|
JEFF WILSON
28 posts
Sep 08, 2009
5:46 PM
|
good post cliff you coverd many diffrent area's in one post my hat's off to you.
|
Scott
2543 posts
Sep 08, 2009
5:47 PM
|
Competition has pole vaulted the breed out of the backyards with those that have the will,desire, and commitment , it has organized flyers (the real backbone) like never before, what exactly do backyard flyers contribute ? just curios.
We have moved the breed onto the world stage all judged under one judge, the same for the nationial fly.
But on the other hand it sure would be easier to just talk about flying good teams rather than actualy having to put them up, and at one time that is how it worked, by the pen, those days are long gone.
----------
Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1432 posts
Sep 08, 2009
6:29 PM
|
Scott, You really scared me! I just spent an agonizing thirty seconds trying to justify my existence to the roller Guru! Then I realized, my kit box's are in the side yard so, I'm exempt! Man was that close!! A little pompous don't you think?
Thom
|
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2045 posts
Sep 08, 2009
7:10 PM
|
Scott
I agree that competition has raised the bar considerably when it comes to flying rollers.....both in backing up one's bragging rights, and in the actual number of birds that can perform with quality. It focuses the efforts of the fancier that, otherwise, would be approached in a more nonchalant manner. The backyard flyers pay the dues and provide the sheer numbers so the organization can be viable, a bulletin is affordable to all, etc. Look at the World Cup. There is no organization per se; no back yard flyers to support it, and every year it faces financial crisis, it seems, that threatens to do it in.
The backyard flyers provide the broad base of our hobby.....the basic interest in our sport.....and many of the competition flyers start out as backyard flyers, and develop an interest in competition as they gain experience in the hobby.
In each region, many flyers are backyard flyers 99% of the time but 2% of the time they are competition flyers.
If it was not for the flyers who just fly to support their region, the competition flyers could not afford to compete.
I agree, the competition flyers who are successful reap the glory and awards, but for many of us that is not the final goal.
We will always find time for the roosters to crow and believe that without them..... the sun would not rise.
The true greats in the roller sport, are found within the NBRC Hall of Fame, for these are the men who moved the sport along so the competition flyers could enjoy winning. Most all of them were backyard flyers at one point. Backyard flyers and competition flyers are two sides of the same coin. They are not polar opposites.
I could go on and on but with your testicles stuck in your ears, it makes it hard for you to hear. BIG GRIN
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 7:13 PM
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3666 posts
Sep 08, 2009
7:17 PM
|
Thom, I am 66 years old and have only been competing nationally and internationally for three years. I can tell you that competing has cured me from loft blindness. My birds have improved ten fold. It has put me with first class fliers with high value birds that I would never had the opportunity without the competition event.
For those that are afraid to compete I would encourage you to get a fly schedule and follow the judge for at least a full day of flying. It may take your hesidency away.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
fhtfire
2082 posts
Sep 08, 2009
9:03 PM
|
List,
Cliff is right..the back yard fliers are a majority of the club....but we all must realize that the comp fliers...roll in the money..look at the NBRC auction..those birds going for the big bucks are from the comp guys......The convention...how many fliers that attended the convention were backyard fliers vs. comp fliers.....
Now the backyard fliers are the body with the comp being the backbone.....with out one another...you have no spine or you have no body......Backyard fliers are an asset to the hobby as much as the comp guys....
We really need to respect each other and our wishes...is one better then the other NO....but the fact is..that competition brings out the best...really makes you look at your birds alot harder...
You dont know how many times I have had guys that dont compete..say they would compete if the rules were different....one guy told me...he has the best spinners...but they dont kit...and if there was not a kit rule....then he would compete...or they say that if they fly and not do good they will be marked as bad fliers or having crappy birds...and that last line is the truth...I have seen it....
We cut off our noses dispite our face...we talk like we want everyone to compete..then you get on sites and all we do is belittle the guys that dont have the big scores...or talk about how crappy the birds are...or a family is not PROVEN in competition.....we need to stop that or we will soon be alone with nobody flying because we will be old and dead and no young guys to hand the torch too..why because we made them feel like shit when they competed.
Now if we did it the right way....and say..win or lose you have respect...wow..what a concept....and by motivating them...you will find that they will get excited about the birds and start really trying to improve the stock...
The guy about the bird not kitting...well...to a comp guy..those are all culls....then you have the argument that the roller is doing it but just does not like to kit...but my rebuttle is this....why not have your cake and eat it too....what I mean is that I told the guy....why not have birds that do exactly what you are saying and kit too....he looked at me with a blank stare....I told him that most comp guys have those very birds that he explained...but they kit too....
Nick is right and the comp makes you look a little harder and try to improve....
No disrespect to backyard fliers....they are the body of the NBRC and we need them as much as they need us...I really feel if we were pro-active and really pushed for everyone to compete...FOR FUN!!!! and have a good time just hanging out...then it would be alot better.....be serious about comp..but only during your 20 minutes.....when it is over....you are back with the fellas watching pigeons...To many fliers....cant be competative for the 20 minutes and then turn the switch off..and those are the ones that are talking bad about other peoples birds......or family of birds....we need to all be united as one organization consisting of different branches.....and realize without all the branches...the tree will die.
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1433 posts
Sep 09, 2009
3:20 AM
|
Nick, I have competed in the sixty and seventies and enjoyed the camaraderie. I also think that competition is a wonderful way to promote our hobby. I don't however believe that if a person chooses not to compete then he and his birds are worthless and make no contribution. That's not hesitating, that's just being content and enjoying the birds, while trying to learn, which also is not stagnation.
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 3:21 AM
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3668 posts
Sep 09, 2009
4:27 AM
|
Thom - I am with you and I do believe there is a place for the backyard flier.....as long as he stays there with thier birds. I think the real problem that competition fliers have with them is that they are quick to come out of thier backyards to tell everyone they have high value spinners, but nobody gets to see them to compare.
I find it as unreasonable as someone telling me he is a good basketball player, but never joins a team to compete.
I have never heard you make these claims and I have much respect for you. But, there are many that do spout these claims of greatness and compete not and rarely if at all fly for people that has an interest to see his high value birds fly.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 4:29 AM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3696 posts
Sep 09, 2009
4:31 AM
|
There is the self-proclaimed royalty and then there are the peasants and the ageless struggle to keep it so...
;-|
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
|
bman
718 posts
Sep 09, 2009
8:18 AM
|
Ok so how do we promote competition in a way that will attract those who currently don't participate???
Certainly the "put up or shut up" theory doesn't work.
This my second year in comp. and it has ALL been good.
Meeting new people,putting faces to internet friends and seeing your birds thru the judges eyes. I know in my region there is a lot of fliers that either choose not to compete or do so intermittenly. So how do we get these people to join the fun? Not by berating them and using the term backyard in a derogatory context!!
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2047 posts
Sep 09, 2009
8:51 AM
|
Thom,,Nick, Paul, and Ron,
All of your posts reflect a positive healthy regarding the Roller Fancy as a whole. Both backyard flyers and competition flyers have their place in the NBRC.
Bragging rights need to be based in reality not BS, if they are to have any real meaning. Those competition flyers, who have earned their right to bask in their winning.....they have our respect. But that does not give them the right to disrespect the backyards and the flyers from which they themselves evolved, nor the men who also worked to get them there, the RD's, the regional supporters, the men who bid on the birds, the EC, all those who without, there would be no competitions to win.
Those competition flyers who earn the most respect, very often, have two things they do well, one is win consistently and the other is display a lot of humility.
Cliff
|
J_Star
2152 posts
Sep 09, 2009
8:53 AM
|
Once they realize how much fun it is and get past the embarrassment feelings when the birds don’t do well or my birds suck kind of thing, they will join.
Jay
|
katyroller
551 posts
Sep 09, 2009
10:20 AM
|
Why is it beyond the ability of some to grasp the idea that wether we fly comp or enjoy our birds in the comfort of our backyard, we are ALL valuable members of this hobby? What do you say to a backyard flier that insists on running his/her mouth? How about a blow hard comp flier with a comic strip fly record? Simple, you ignore them. You don't label the whole bushel bad because of one bad apple! You then grow up and move on trying to represent the hobby the best you can!
Tracey
|