XtraDeepRoller
26 posts
Sep 06, 2009
12:10 PM
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After reading some posts lately, and seeing what has been moderated recently, I decided to start this thread.
99% of the flyers, and club members, are men. For myself, and most of my friends, roller competitions and group events, are a chance for men, brought together by our love for this amazing performance pigeon, to get away and spend some man time together. When we are not able to get together in person, we use these online roller sites, forums, and e-mail groups to hang with our roller buds.
Believe me, I'm not a chauvinist by any means. Most of us have wives or girlfriends, and families, but let's face it, men need time to hang with other men with similar interests. Women do it all the time, they have their girlfriends, and ladies groups that they are involved with, so why can't we men have the same?
I'm not trying to keep women out of the roller hobby, I'm just saying that if they want to hang with a men's group, then they have to accept what comes with it. We may use salty language on occasion, we may tell dirty jokes on occasion, we will definitely rag on our roller brothers from time to time, that's just men being men.
To say that we must moderate posts, to the extent that is being done, because women and children may read these posts, rings hollow to me. As with anything our children are exposed to, it's up to US to decide what they are allowed to have access to. If you find the language too salty on here for them, then don't let them read the open forum. Just copy posts that you think may be interesting to your children, and send it to their e-mail, or print it out for them.
Let's let men be men, and enjoy the company of our brothers in this great hobby of ours.
X
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
530 posts
Sep 06, 2009
12:24 PM
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Well said X.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3676 posts
Sep 06, 2009
12:52 PM
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x, LOL You really believe what you just said?? LOL!!!!!!
x, I think you have what being a real man is all about a little confused with the ole "boys will be boys" saw! I can't believe someone actually "said that out loud"?
When did good manners and respect for someone elses property go out of style? Sounds like someone trying to justify bad behavior.
What specifically has been moderated that has you all wound up?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
533 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:03 PM
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The problem with letting folks say what they want to say is that some folks can not/will not moderate themselves. We may get on this site and be the best of buds when we are talking about the birds but without a shadow of a doubt someone is going to make a comment regarding religion, politics or something that we may hold sacred. We think we know each other but let's be real, this is the internet, how well do we REALLY know each other?
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3677 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:06 PM
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Sunflower:
"Tony,
I was out of line and for that I apologize but this moderation has gotten out of hand. If someone has a problem with the proper name for a part of the anatomy then maybe they need to move into a convent or a monastery.
Keep em Spinning
Joe "
Joe, thanks for your apology. I appreciate it. Please understand that we have around 6500 unique visitors to this site each month. I cannot please everyone perfectly by keeping everyone towing the line. For every action I take to make one group happy, it upsets another group, for each person I try to make happy, it upsets another.
Please understand my position, I am ALWAYS in a no win situation. Why do you think so many other websites get started? Because I can't make everybody happy. I do not have the wisdom of Solomon and mistakes are going to be made.
There are typically 2 types that on this site, those who understand my position and those that don't care.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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XtraDeepRoller
27 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:12 PM
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Tony,
I thought that it was a well thought out post, I think it stands on it's own, it's my opinion, and from what I've heard and witnessed, the opinion of most of the men in this hobby.
No reason for you to try to make a joke out of it with the first line in your post. I'm not confused in the least. How about you showing some respect for my opinion, even if it doesn't agree with yours? Yes, this is your site, but are we all required to have the same opinion that you do on everything? That may not be what you mean, but you certainly come off that way sometimes.
X
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1426 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:18 PM
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I served in the Fire Department for twenty six years. One retired Navy Capt. was as salty as anyone. His jokes made me blush and I also served for six years in the Marine Corps. He was quite a character, one of the most manly men I have ever met. Manly because of his uncanny ability to turn it off, when children or ladies were present, he became as pristine as any priest. He also was a very brave man, he never felt the need to be crude or insulting to anyone, man, woman, or child. Men will be men, I hope you are right.
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 1:22 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
532 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:24 PM
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Tony,
After spending 44 years in association with the various branches of the US military there is very little that offends me because I think I have pretty much heard it all. One thing that does irritate me is nonsensical sensitivity to perfectly normal terms and phrases. Scott's use of the term testicular fortitude is a classic example of nonsensical sensitivity. The excuse of innocent eyes doesn't wash on that to me. There is a perfectly simple to response to a childs inquiry on that phrase. I would hate to see some of the people on this site in their first encounter with their drill instructor. I think X is right and I stand by my statement!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3678 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:28 PM
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x, you and I just have a different world view. I think men should be respectful of women and children. I believe that a man will respect the posting policy he agreed to abide by.
For the RECORD, you NEVER have to agree with me to be welcome on this site. I respect your right to speak, I don't have to agree with your conclusions and saying so is not disrespectful.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3679 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:29 PM
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I distinguish a difference in being a MAN and being macho.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3680 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:30 PM
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When did good manners and respect for someone elses property go out of style?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3681 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:34 PM
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Joe and x, serious question, should we have a posting policy and why?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
533 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:46 PM
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Yes Tony, you should have a posting policy to keep down the nonsense as has occurred on here before and as apparently happened on the UK forum. My point is that when you empower someone with the authority to act as a moderater, that person should have the common sense necessary to act in that capacity. Whoever was moderating Scott's post does not fit that profile. No excuses, as I said earlier I was out of line but that is what set me off last night, a lack of common sense.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 1:49 PM
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KiddenAround
304 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:49 PM
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Been traveling and been missing this list, just signed on for the first time in awhile to share a funny story (separate post) and saw this post. Thought I'd share my two cents . . .
From an understanding 'outsider's' perspective (being a woman makes me the outsider), I agree somewhat with X on the right to have freedom to be 'with the boys' without having to worry about the different rules applicable in mixed company. I realize that this is a men's club simply because the majority are men, and I have felt honored that you guys share as much as you do with me. Men and women are different -- not equal. And that's not a bad thing (because we kick butt in some areas! lol). I agree with Tony that we should all have respect for each other.
I am only catching the cause of this debate by context in this current thread, and I have to say that Paul's use of the term 'testicular fortitude' was probably a very entertaining, amusing, colorful and probably appropriate way to express himself. Not offensive at all, and if I had to explain to my kids, I'd figure it was an educational opportunity.
That being said, I will admit that a few years ago, I wrote the producers of the cable series "Deadwood" and complained to them about their horrible overuse of profanity. I couldn't wait for a new western, more cowboys and old west living, and it was so bad that I completely lost interest. My great grandpa was a sheriff in Arkansas and was killed in a bar fight, but he never cursed. His son, my grandfather never said anything stronger than 'damn' and rarely said that. Seems that most of the world nowadays uses F bombs so frequently that they're desensitized, and I spend most of my time with animals so I don't have to listen to it, but if I am in the company of men, I usually expect it. I do have the freedom to hang with them and hear it, or walk way.
But I'd better not hear that my son has that kind of language in public! I did teach him better! lol
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-- Laura
Professional Thrill Seeker
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
534 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:52 PM
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Well said Laura.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1427 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:52 PM
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Despite the movie persona every Drill Instructor at P.I. had manners and respect around visitors, male and female, young or old and after graduation, the boot turned Marine.
Tony, manners and respect exist, they are just a little frayed from a lack of parenting. With exceptions.
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 1:55 PM
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katyroller
536 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:53 PM
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Joe,
I don't have 44 years of exposure to the military only 18 but I have been through 2 boot camps to include our beloved Marine Corps.. As a Marine you and I both know certain language was frowned upon when in the company of women and children.
What Scott said does not offend me in the least bit but you have to look at it in the context that it was used, I can see how some sensitive readers could read into it and become offended. We have to look at this site as a place to be kept friendly for EVERYONE to visit. I'm sure Tony's wife visits the site and has to see some of the stuff that gets posted.
I was on the chat for a bird site several nights ago and was conversing on a subject that went south fairly quickly. Well, my wife looked over my shoulder to see what I was spending so much time on and what she read had nothing to do with birds. Now I'm sure she questioned why I would want to spend my time reading such nonsense instead of spending time with her and the family.
There used to be a guy named Father Mike that posted on this site, did he get out of the birds?
Tracey
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
535 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:57 PM
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Tracey,
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one friend.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3682 posts
Sep 06, 2009
1:58 PM
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Laura, great post and perspective. Your last line regarding your son really is the nub of this whole new debate. To all the guys, what would our mamas think and say about some of these posts that we are making?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
537 posts
Sep 06, 2009
2:01 PM
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Joe,
"We will just have to agree to disagree on this one friend." I am having a good chuckle over this. I do understand where you and Scott are coming from, trust me I am not a saint!
Your Friend,
Tracey
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3683 posts
Sep 06, 2009
2:01 PM
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Tracey, he has had some health challenges and I believe he is out of birds right now.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
538 posts
Sep 06, 2009
2:12 PM
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Tony,
If you ever talk to him ask him to stop in once in awhile and let us know how he is doing. He usually had something interesting to post and it was kind of hard to get cross with a man of the cloth.
Tracey
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KiddenAround
306 posts
Sep 06, 2009
2:49 PM
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Tony, I commend you for your continued gallant efforts at polishing all of us "chunks of coal" into diamonds!
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-- Laura
Professional Thrill Seeker
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Scott
2523 posts
Sep 06, 2009
4:11 PM
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Laura, I'm not sure if you have followed this but we aren't talking about anything like throwing "F" bombs here.
This all started over an over zelous moderator, I think that we all are for keeping it fairly clean here
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Scott Campbell
"It is about ***fixed***** fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 5:30 PM
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Scott
2528 posts
Sep 06, 2009
5:16 PM
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fixed
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Scott Campbell
"It is about *****fixed***** fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2009 5:30 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3685 posts
Sep 06, 2009
6:16 PM
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Scott! You the man!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3686 posts
Sep 06, 2009
6:17 PM
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Tracey, I will try to call him this week and see how he is doing. He is a good man. He has given me a lot of spiritual advice.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3663 posts
Sep 06, 2009
6:29 PM
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Region 5 has a woman who has 170 Master Flier points. She had to step away from the rollers due to her involvement as a corporate executive. Once that transpires she will be back into the game. She came close to being our judge this fall, I have a new member in the NBRC that is a woman. There is a place and a need in this hobby for women. The same place and need we have for men.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
536 posts
Sep 06, 2009
7:02 PM
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Nick,
Don't think anyone is implying that there isn't a place in this hobby for women.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3688 posts
Sep 06, 2009
9:08 PM
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Joe, what I took from your response is that we SHOULD be careful about our posts, that a posting policy (PP) IS a good idea and necessary. Who do you think should write and or develop the PP? Also, does the action of an overzealous moderator, invalidate the PP? Or are these two separate issues? Am I wrong to recruit volunteers from the site members to enforce the PP?
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Windjammer Loft
931 posts
Sep 07, 2009
8:34 AM
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XtraDeepRoller....You must also remember that the younger boys/girls are the ones that will hopefully be keeping this hobby going. So, to say that this is some kind of a man's club.... you better think twice.
I have been in the pigeon game off and on for over 40yrs. It's always been some kind of a family thing to one degree or another but,never considered a "man's club"... So, before someone posts something,keep in mind "WHO" will be viewing your post..
Times are a changing... that's for sure.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 5:06 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3370 posts
Sep 07, 2009
10:35 AM
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I agree with Paul ..this should be a everybody sport .Rick has a 9 yr old that has her own kit now X you say to keep the kids away and email them or print out for them what they should only read .but what happens when the little girl comes over and sits on dad's lap at that moment he is reading the post does he say go away now,, I print this out for you .you can't read this ,now she will wonder why ...I think we should keep in mind we don't know who is going to read these post or come in at the moment that you reading it.so what we do.. keep it real keep it clean to a point..I come from the streets and all that would come out my mouth is f this f that but told my kid never repeat what you hear but I can't control other people kids that come in here.so I control myself.and I look at it this way is Tony's place so I respect it.. now I see nothing wrong with Scott using the word testicular fortitude.is better than using street words..like Ba##s or C##k or what have you..
----------p.s. if its just a mans sport.when we get old and die no more sport.we didn't let the little one's in..
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 6:24 PM
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katyroller
545 posts
Sep 07, 2009
2:25 PM
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If we read a post and feel the need to converse with someone using "adult" language, I suggest we email the other individual and discuss the issue however we please. What we say in public is subject to scrutiny but what we say in private is just that private. Often times it isn't what we say but the way we say it. It is very easy to take innocent words or phrases and deliberately change their meanings to get our personal opinion across or to agitate.
Tracey
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
538 posts
Sep 08, 2009
4:28 PM
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Tony,
To answer your questions, yes I believe a posting policy is necessary. Since this is your site, I think you have every right to develop the policy and enlist anyone you care to enforce the policy. If they abuse that priviledge then their authority should be revoked. One other thing, I believe one requirement to post on here should be a completed profile. This anonymous posting leads to some of the nonsense. Some without "testicular fortitude" are emboldened by the anonymity. Might be different if we knew their real names.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1431 posts
Sep 08, 2009
4:57 PM
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Joe is 100% right, why are people allowed to hide? I don't want their address, just their name, age, and geological area. What is so wrong in that?
Thom
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2009 4:57 PM
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Ty Coleman
706 posts
Sep 08, 2009
6:34 PM
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I have to agree with Paul and Ralph on this topic. Rollers are a family hobby at my house, my dog even watches the kit LOL.
Tom,Joe, some folks have been ridiculed in the past for various reasons and wish not to show who they are. I have no problem with that if they keep it on the strait up. As said before It's Tony's site and we are all just visitors so if it's cool with him I have no reason to complain.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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J_Star
2148 posts
Sep 09, 2009
5:33 AM
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Just want all to know that when I moderate a post I will put my name (Moderated - J) to show who edited or deleted your post. When I delete your post, I will only delete the content and leave your post up. I have been around for a long time and I know just about everyone here on this site. How they think and how they talk and behave. There are some good people and some characters. Some of you like to push the button and see how far you go and those folks will be moderated heavily…I can guarantee you that.
Tony, you don’t have to explain your position to anyone. Think of it that they are all in your backyard enjoying a get together and they all have to respect your house rules. Period.
Jay
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az-je
61 posts
Sep 09, 2009
1:05 PM
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Hey Ty , same goes at my house. We're in it together. Even the dog watches the Rollers, she's hoping to flush up the rolldowns or retreive them for us. I come to this website often to read and learn more about the hobby. Lots of good info here on any and every subject relating to Rollers. See you guys at the Shows and Competition Flys (and not just as my husband's sidekick)
Janet (the Arizona Roller Lady)
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 1:10 PM
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cv rollers
465 posts
Sep 09, 2009
2:21 PM
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well put Jay ,u dont have to explain yourself Tony ,if ur in my back yard and my wife and kids are out side u better watch ur language !!!out in the street i can not control that, i will tell my kids go to your own back yard.. I have to watch what my daughter reads on hear sometimes,when she has to read for 20 min.for home work i will find a long article ..In my house its a family hobby
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3673 posts
Sep 09, 2009
2:45 PM
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Ah, fu(moderated)it guys(LOL). I have a wife and daughters and they are not as delicate as many think. Some times they handle it better than I do.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 2:59 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
539 posts
Sep 09, 2009
3:22 PM
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Now that was uncalled for you old heathen. LMAO
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
2548 posts
Sep 09, 2009
3:25 PM
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Now that took a moderated !!! LOL
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2009 5:23 PM
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RodSD
341 posts
Sep 09, 2009
10:39 PM
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I think pigeon keeping is all sex club except that the majority members are males. With respect to using rude languages, I think it is not necessary. We "get" it that you are pissed!
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Scott
2553 posts
Sep 10, 2009
8:48 AM
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Who is useing profanity here Paul ?
I don't think this has any thing to do with this topic, I also know mr X and he is far (moderated - J) than you and I and he also rarely uses profanity.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 8:31 PM
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Windjammer Loft
946 posts
Sep 10, 2009
8:57 AM
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Scott, first of all Iam not accusing Mr. X of anything....lets get that straight... If I hurt your feelings or stepped on your toes....excuse ME.. I will delete my last post, just for YOU
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 8:58 AM
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Scott
2555 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:01 AM
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Paul, didn't nean to upset you, sorry
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Scott Campbell
"It is about moderated fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 8:29 PM
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Windjammer Loft
947 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:05 AM
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Scott....Iam not up-set. It takes alot more then something like this to roughfull my feathers....LOL. Your right, I was thinking of a different post at the time and got the 2 confused.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Pumpkin Man
166 posts
Sep 10, 2009
9:56 AM
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It's a man's club not because we exclude women, but because most women don't like cleaning up poop, unless it's their own baby's diaper which is not necessarily a likeable thing. Ever think how much more gross it would be to change a stranger's kids diaper than your own kid. Poop is poop, but somehow others is much worse than our own. If a drop or two of urine on a toilet lid tends to make your wife GO OFF, it's a pretty safe bet she won't be spending much time in the pigeon loft.
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XtraDeepRoller
28 posts
Sep 10, 2009
10:18 AM
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If you re-read my original post, it is amazing the way that some read something else into it. I was simply pointing out the REALITY of our hobby. I have nothing against women or children being involved in our hobby, but the REALITY is that they are a very small percentage of our hobby. There is nothing wrong with our hobby being mostly a man's hobby, it is the REALITY, and it will probably always be the REALITY. There has always been, and will probably always be, very few women in the hobby. Children grow up, and almost all of them that will stick to the hobby in adulthood will be men.
As I said in my original post, any women that are in the hobby should know that it is almost completely made up of men, and they should expect men to be men. As far as children are concerned, it is up to us as parents to control what they are exposed to, and we all have different ideas of what they should be exposed to at what age. Most children, in higher grades in school, are exposed to much worse than I have ever seen on this site, but there again, the responsibility for exposure is on us, the parents.
X
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J_Star
2161 posts
Sep 10, 2009
11:13 AM
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Captain X, you are right. But to recruit more men to the hobby we need to get to their women hearts and mind if you think about it. If we tell the wives that this hobby could guarantee to keep their husbands in the backyard and away from frequenting bars and running around, women would be talking their husbands into getting into this hobby.
Scott, I edited your post and will tell you why privately.
Jay
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2009 11:15 AM
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