Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
201 posts
Sep 23, 2009
9:09 AM
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Here you go history buffs..(From True Spinning by Kowalski)1887 James C. Lyell--Fancy Pigeons,chapter 25 "The Tumbler" ..."Rollers may be smooth or feather-legged. Many are heavily hocked, with feathers on the feet 3 inches or 4 inches long. They are much fancied in Birmingham and the Midland counties". Paul G. I have a DVD of George Pattersons birds in the middle 90's (I had his birds in the early 1970) and his J.L. Smith birds had 3-4 inch muffs on about 50% of them. He did not breed for muff, but it was there. I have had no difficulty in the flying of muffed...they are as fast and deep with control as the others. (they also roll down as soon as others if one is not careful)smile
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De Oppresso Liber
Last Edited by on Sep 23, 2009 9:10 AM
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ezeedad
1054 posts
Sep 23, 2009
11:51 AM
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Longroller,
I had heard that... especially about the muffs coming out of the Smith blood. But I didn't know
about Patterson having such a high percentage of muffs. My experience flying the muffs is that they
are no different than clean legs. The muff genes don't have anything to do with roll.
Paul G
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
202 posts
Sep 23, 2009
4:33 PM
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Here is a family of J.L. Smith birds. Squeakers are 10 days old. I went to band at 6 days and could not get a band on the white one..had to use a larger band. I broke feathers on the lavender one. Note the parents are hocked. Father x Daughter..Eldon Cheney suggested the mating in 2008. Lace (daughter) is a solid 60" and George (father) is 50-75" consistant.
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De Oppresso Liber
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
205 posts
Sep 23, 2009
4:38 PM
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Parents to the squeakers above..Cock on roost..hen on bottom
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De Oppresso Liber
Last Edited by on Sep 23, 2009 4:40 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3708 posts
Sep 24, 2009
1:17 AM
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Muffs; bull eyes; and other things can be found in the Birmingham Roller. BUT, I do not understand why anyone would specifically breed for them. Those items by themselves do not lend anything towards performance. If you are not into Rollers for the performance alone I would strongly recommend other breeds that can satisfy your needs.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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pat66
407 posts
Sep 24, 2009
3:37 AM
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Nick , in the last 2 posts,they do tell about performance, that is why Longroller paired them up, the muffs are a bonus!
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Pat
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pat66
408 posts
Sep 24, 2009
3:40 AM
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Longroller, awesome birds! let me know how those young turn out! PERFORMANCE and looks!!!!are they kin to the ones you sent me? pure smoke!!!!!!!
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Pat
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cv rollers
480 posts
Sep 24, 2009
8:11 AM
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nick have u seen any muffs perform ??some of the guys above talk about how fast they roll ,just like the non muffed rollers(these guys no what they are talking about)
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
207 posts
Sep 24, 2009
8:36 AM
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Nick..I appreciate your comments, for in a performance animal (horses, dogs, chickens, pigeons) anything outside of performance as #1, is extra...color, muffs, mane, ears ect. Eldon wanted to look at my birds early on a rainey morning..I told him it was too dark..he said he wanted to feel them. I handed him this hen, he did the "Cheney flex test" and said let me see the mother. He did not like her. Let me see the father..he really liked him. Mate the two together in 2009. But this is what I have come with on the 4th round. May I add that the first two rounds were totally clean legged. All done in a single pair pen. Thanks for your comments. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3709 posts
Sep 24, 2009
9:00 AM
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I have had booted birds for decades.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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ezeedad
1055 posts
Sep 24, 2009
9:29 AM
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Nick,
You said "If you are not into Rollers for the performance alone I would strongly recommend other breeds that can satisfy your needs."
Since I have specifically bred for muffs, unashamedly and happily ..I might add... What other breed(s) would you recommend that would satisfy my need for performance as well as beauty?
Paul G
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George R.
76 posts
Sep 24, 2009
2:25 PM
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How about West of Englands Paul ?
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George Ruiz
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3711 posts
Sep 24, 2009
2:51 PM
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The problem with Westies is the performance has been breed out of them for the beauty. If we continue to breed Birminghams for beauty we will eventually do the same to them.
Irish Setters no longer hunt for the same reason. You cannot serve the two idealogies without the performance wanning.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
77 posts
Sep 24, 2009
3:12 PM
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I have only seen ONE big muff that could RIPP and that was a Bird named DONUT, bred by Hector Coya i bought the Bird from his Kit , took it home and flew it and it was a Damm nice roller. I got a few offers of 100.00 dollers for her and I always said NO.
I bred her on three different Cocks and Never got one good one from her.
I lent her to a friend and he never gave her Back
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2009 3:32 PM
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Hector Coya
561 posts
Sep 24, 2009
4:16 PM
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Hey George,the pictures i posted are the parents of that hen,they are not fertil anymore becouse they are 1996 birds.
I doo remember that hen,she was one of the fastes birds ive seen.
I bred that pair for over 10 years,ive had many good once ,and some not,but thats in any pair.
I still have brothers and sisters to the dounut hole hen..
Hector Coya-SGVS
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George R.
78 posts
Sep 24, 2009
4:20 PM
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she was for "REAL " Hector I will never forget her . I wanted to breed me a whole line of them But I hit to many roadblocks.
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George Ruiz
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
208 posts
Sep 24, 2009
6:23 PM
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Nick..I agree with you..but don't understand the "if we continue to breed for beauty"..I thought the old show roller was about gone short of some die-hards. I suggest that a good 80% of the hard core roller breeders/flyers breed for performance. Periodically they get a real looker and that is a plus. Reminds me of the Ford pickups that are $54,000. each and it takes a step ladder to get into, and gets 8-10 MPG, vs my Toyota Tundra 6 cy. work truck that I paid $16,000. for with the hand crank windows that gets 22 MPG. Performance vs beauty although "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"...I have never bred rollers for any other thing other than performance. One of the reasons I have several familys is that each one is different in performance, color, feather and stature. I don't cross to "see what I can get"...every thing is performance oriented. I just get some good plus's upon occasions. Thanks for reading. Your points are good. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
151 posts
Sep 24, 2009
6:27 PM
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Hey Will you saw my lil hen perform, not sure of the family . but she spins some nice 20 plus footers.
Larry
Make It Rain Lofts / N.C.R.C.
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2009 6:29 PM
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Hector Coya
562 posts
Sep 24, 2009
6:38 PM
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I hear people say ,i dont mate 2 dark checks or 2 hard color to 2 red selfs.
to me thats prety much looking at somthing els other than performance.If your best 2 birds are dark checks and you dont mate best to best ,your just as bad,,,LOL
Hector Coya-SGVS
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STUDENT 2 THE GAME
154 posts
Sep 24, 2009
7:07 PM
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I can care less about colors ... best to best over here also . Im new to the sport so I will make mistakes but at least I will try and not just follow the pack . This muff I had when I first started I breed her to a blk/ wht/flt and it produced a blue bar . That was before I got my other birds. That hen and her only baby made it to my A team .
Will i breed her again ...probaly not I have my main breeders that are doing well so I dont need her. If I didnt have the others ...most definatly . she kits rolls 20plus nice and tight and she is a trigger bird .
Larry
Make It Rain Lofts / N.C.R.C.
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ezeedad
1057 posts
Sep 24, 2009
7:49 PM
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George,
Maybe the Wests would satisfy YOUR need for performance, buddy...LOL..!!! But NOT MINE..!!
I was asking for Nicks suggestion... but I guess he changed his mind.
Paul G
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George R.
79 posts
Sep 24, 2009
8:11 PM
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Paul are you Flying a kit in the Fall Fly ?
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George Ruiz
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3713 posts
Sep 24, 2009
8:58 PM
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Paul, I would suggest that you give up the quest for beauty and pursue performance in this performance breed. There is already more beauty in these birds than what can be totally described with an effort to breed for a specific feather or color trait.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
80 posts
Sep 24, 2009
9:05 PM
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I agree with you Nick , anyone can out two birds in a cage and get some Babies , but it takes more work to Fly a good kit of Real rollers , ----------
George Ruiz
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Hector Coya
563 posts
Sep 24, 2009
9:26 PM
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I dont know why some people think others are not focused on perfomance,I mate my best to best Bob Scotts,my best to best Norm Reeds,my best to best Muff's my best to best Crest,My best to best Higgins,,what seems to be the problem..
Hector Coya_SGVS
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George R.
81 posts
Sep 24, 2009
10:05 PM
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Hector everyone knows you breed fro performance You always enter and Fly in MANY competetions . I think that Nick was talking to Paul , I have never seen Pauls name on a Fly sheet either , that dont mean that he dont have good birds it just means he dont COMPETE in Major fly's ( World Cup , Fall fly,
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2009 10:14 AM
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3757
1297 posts
Sep 25, 2009
7:39 AM
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Fanciers: A little history on Paul. Paul was competing in the CRS and other clubs before many of the new flyers were even born. When statements are made that so and so does not compete those statements are misleading. What they are saying is that he does not fly in the NBRC major fly's. If an individual fly's in a local club or specialty club is that competing? If you enter your birds in an roller futurity fly is that competing? Of course it is but these statements need clarification as many in the hobby state incorrect information.
Competition: The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.
A test of skill or ability; a contest: a skating competition.
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cv rollers
481 posts
Sep 25, 2009
8:27 AM
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Who has some of the best muffs you seen in the air? Im thinking about starting a muff project......this is what the tread is about ,not about personal jabs on people giving their opinion about their birds and whether they fly COMP. JMO
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2009 9:14 AM
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gotspin7
2550 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:04 AM
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WOW!
The birmingham roller already has all the beauty anyone can enjoy without a need of creating something just for looks.On a personal note, to me the most beautiful ones are the one's that spin right and tight...hehe! Good luck with your independent quest gentlemen. Just remember don't bull shit yourself about what are you really trying to accomplish with YOUR birds.
Laron, a competition is really a "competition" if you really have someone to compete against or should I say really gives you competition... smile..
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Sal Ortiz
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ezeedad
1058 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:38 AM
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LaRon,
Thanks for coming to my defense. But really the problem is that there are too many people that believe
you have to compete to prove you have good rollers. Some of these people think you have to be in the same
competitions as they are in.
They think that you have to breed the same as they do. They think you have to have the same colors as they do.
I didn't start raising rollers to compete with them.
I started raising them because they are incredible animals that provide me with a lot of pleasure.
I eventually did compete with a couple clubs, but I found that it did not really help me raise better rollers.
I am 64 years old. I wonder how many of these guys blowing all that hot air will still be competing when
they are my age. I wonder how many of them will have been raising rollers continuously for 50 years?
In this hobby you have the freedom to do whatever you please.. After all are the blowhards paying your feedbill?
I respect those who choose to fly kit competitions, even though I believe the rules should be improved. I don't question their choices.
I say do what makes you happy or you will be unhappy.
Paul G
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3714 posts
Sep 25, 2009
1:12 PM
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I am 66, so the answer would be a "yes", there will be those competing when they are your age. My only regret is that I wish I was competing 40 years ago. What you don't know does hurt you.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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az-je
63 posts
Sep 25, 2009
1:24 PM
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Gary & I have some muffed Jaconette rollers that can really tear it up, spin tight and fast with the best of our clean legged birds. (Muffs don't create any "drag" as the legs and feet are tucked up and under when they fly/roll) (That statement always cracks me up)
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2009 1:26 PM
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pat66
412 posts
Sep 25, 2009
4:05 PM
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LLLLOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!! Tell em az-je!!!
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Pat
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ezeedad
1059 posts
Sep 25, 2009
10:48 PM
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Nick, I wasn't really thinking of you when I wrote that....
Paul G
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pigeon pete
384 posts
Sep 26, 2009
3:39 AM
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Nick,
Irish setters DO hunt, but the only reliable working ones have beed 'reinvented' by breed enthusiasts who have bred purely for performance for several generations, and they have even got red and white ones back now, which was bred out by the show fraternity who prefered the pure red.
This is what happens when you breed for the 'wrong' traits. I used to have an Irish setter that was bred on a breed farm where they just bred for the pet market.
It was a lovely natured lunatic with more energy than it could run off before it collapsed,lol. However she did 'set' if she saw a duck and you could straight away see that the hunting quality had not dissapeared, just the mental stability needed to do it in a controlled way.
One day a friends son took her out for a walk and the young lad got distacted playing in a field, and let her wander off.
The next thing he knew was when a shot rang out.
She had run into a nearby farm yard and nabbed a bantam cock. The farmer arriving home in his car had met my dog coming the opposite way down the drive proudly carrying his cockerel. He ran in the house and got his shotgun. Fortunately he missed my dog and she dropped the bird and ran off, the cockerel shook himself and ran back towards the farm, non the worse. There were legal and financial repercussions, lol
If the rollers are genuine Birmingham rollers to start with, then selecting for some other trait such as muffs for the odd generation, and therafter breeding from your best rolling muffs would not in my opinion ruin the rolling characteristics of the strain. It's no different from breeding a poor performer or a seldom roller just on is pedigree to see what it will breed, maybe because it is the last available bird you can use to retain close breeding in a long estabished family. However if we deviate too much, or if it doesn't work out well, then we may have to spend a few seasons reinventing the wheel.
Most of us have gone through this process anyway at the start of our roller hobby, unless we have been lucky enough to start out with high quality birds.
If I lost most of my birds due to disease, and all I had left was muffs, or reds, or whatever, then I wouldn't think twice about continuing with what birds I had left, and i would then be a colour breeder or a muff breeder lol
Pete.
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2009 4:06 AM
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gotspin7
2551 posts
Sep 26, 2009
5:21 AM
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Paul, if you were talking about me. You are wrong, I am not a blow hard and I have been doing this since I was 12 years old and I plan on keeping on...lol.. I just speak in what I believe in just like you do and nothing more. Good Luck with your program as I know you have been successful with it..
Pete, I would cull what I had left and go get me some of the good ones I passed out to my good friends and start over again that way. It is all about trying to keep only the very best performers and producers. At least that is the goal..lol...
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Sal Ortiz
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pigeon pete
385 posts
Sep 26, 2009
9:44 AM
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Sal,
That's OK if you can get good ones back, but most of us would have better ones in our loft than the ones we gave away?? If not why would you still have them unless you are talking about yoiungbirds.
Also My experience from when I left the hobby for a couple of years is that when you need good birds they are very scarce, and you usually get birds about as good as your culls used to be. I gave away a few dozen birds for free, then 2 years later I could only get back 3 of my old strain. One guy who had filled a box with good birds had just left his wife and killed all his pigeons before he left! Those 3 birds although not top notch started me off again on the right track.
I would rather breed from birds that I knew the background and character of because i had bred their ancestors, than birds I would have to start learning about. In other words, better the devil you know--
Pete.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3717 posts
Sep 26, 2009
12:59 PM
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Pete, The Irish Setters you find in the U.S. haven't been used as hunters in 50 years, but they have gotten bigger and more pretty. It has been decades sense I saw any being used in field trials. They are no longer a hunting breed here.
Westies where once a performance breed and today I don't know of anyone flying them. Catalonions is the same. The performance is gone. Nobody I know are flying them. There will be others that will follow, especially in this country, the path of loosing thier ability to perform.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Spin City USA
248 posts
Sep 26, 2009
3:04 PM
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Paul, I aggree with your posts and I find it very funny that those who have been in the birds think that five or six years is a long time, they havent even scratched the surface of what the birds they flying is all about. They may have one or two generations of the family and think they are experts. Oh well,such is life.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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pigeon pete
388 posts
Sep 26, 2009
3:09 PM
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Hi Nick,
This is why you have to be very careful when buying performance stock. If I wanted a working Irish Setter I would have to go to the kennels in Ireland that have produced the modern working strain.
Likewise with rollers, I know how many generations of selection for perfromance has gone into my birds ( at least since I got them), and I would only go to one of a few selected lofts if I wanted to start again or change families.
Pete.
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ezeedad
1060 posts
Sep 26, 2009
7:13 PM
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Sal, Truthfully you were one of the people I was referring to.. talking about
"don't bull shit yourself about what are you really trying to accomplish with YOUR birds."
This sounds like you are saying that we have to choose one or the other and if you want both you are lying to yourself.
Let me tell you what started my interest in muffs.
Long ago I had a cock that was a real star..showed a clean hole...fast.. control... a beautiful spangle.. grouse legged. I mated it to a hen that Pensom gave me and told me "she rolls like a bull"..I flew her and saw what Pensom meant... a perfect donut...hard spin.
The pair had a set of offspring with full but short muffs, and I was just starting to train them when a
thief stole them. The hen had died when I flew her a week or two earlier.. blew her intestines out.. probably my fault for flying my breeders... but that's just how I rolled..at the time.
I KNEW those birds would have been awesome... In a way I've been trying to make up for what happened back then.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2009 7:18 PM
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Hector Coya
565 posts
Sep 26, 2009
7:38 PM
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Paul,You dont have to explain yourself,Some people think ,just becouse they never seen it,it dont exist,Good Muff rollers that is,Ive had them,Ive seen them,And only people that have seen them with there oun eyes can beleave how good they are.
I cant understand why someone cant get it through there skull that if you breed your best Muff to your best Muff,you can get some,and i said some great Muff's,Muff's are like any other Trait,you can still keep the roll and breed for a sertian body tipe or head tipe or clean legg tipe.
Like i said earlyer and didnt hear a response,If your best 2 are blue checks and you choose to mate them to reds ,to Quote color balance ,then you are not focusing on performance ,.If you mate your best to best,whether is Muff,or or clean leggs your still focusing on roll,just keeping the other caracteristics in the same line.
Hector Coya-SGVS
Last Edited by on Sep 26, 2009 10:52 PM
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ANEWKITT
48 posts
Sep 26, 2009
10:40 PM
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I love Muffs. The best bird I ever breed was a Black Muff self. That bird was incredible
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Rodney
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ezeedad
1061 posts
Sep 27, 2009
1:02 PM
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Wow Sal..!!
You're really worked up on this subject... You seem to think that I'm not concerned about making spinners.. You already answered your own question when you put Hectors comment in your post.
"I cant understand why someone cant get it through there skull that if you breed your best Muff to your best Muff,you can get some... great Muff's"
When I breed I am always looking towards the standard. This means everything that a good roller is supposed to have.. ...Blur Speed... wings straight up. Showing a hole...
If you breed for simultaneous performance are you breeding for thr standard? How about Kitting? How about depth?
I wonder how many roller breeders are trying to produce the standard and how many are bull shitting themselves?
Paul G
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gotspin7
2558 posts
Sep 27, 2009
3:26 PM
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Wow Sal..!!
You're really worked up on this subject... You seem to think that I'm not concerned about making spinners.. You already answered your own question when you put Hectors comment in your post.
"I cant understand why someone cant get it through there skull that if you breed your best Muff to your best Muff,you can get some... great Muff's"
When I breed I am always looking towards the standard. This means everything that a good roller is supposed to have.. ...Blur Speed... wings straight up. Showing a hole...
If you breed for simultaneous performance are you breeding for thr standard? How about Kitting? How about depth?
I wonder how many roller breeders are trying to produce the standard and how many are bull shitting themselves?
Paul, not at all..lol.. I think my writing abilities are getting better.. Smile..
Ok here we ago again.. lol..
When I breed I am always looking towards the standard. This means everything that a good roller is supposed to have.. ...Blur Speed... wings straight up.
Paul, I agree with this statement a 100%! Now my question to you is this, how did adding the Qualmand or Almond to your birds from a bird you acquired from a pet store help your birds with everything you stated above? Then I have this one for you how you concentrating on muffs help your stock as well? I am pretty sure you probably put some up with out even flying them out just on the actual muffs themselves?
Showing a hole...
This one here, my birds are really not long enough to show it. I guess you are taking yours to the longer side again? You know to obtain the illusion of such?
If you breed for simultaneous performance are you breeding for thr standard?
Paul,
On this one you really got me confused as I do not know who does. I will share what I do, I tend to stock the ones that roll from the front of the kit and middle of the kit all the others tend to have to be stimulated to roll and do not commit to the roll. To me those birds are just garbage, you know the bird's that tend to always are behind the kit or the bird's that never tend to catch up with the kit even when the whole kit is performing at a high degree..(My beliefs, as I know you have yours as well).
How about Kitting?
Why wouldn't anybody NOT want their birds to kit? I thought that was a BIG part about character?
How about depth?
I like mine at the 20 to 60 on the depth, deeper than that you tend to have all kinds of issues, I know yours tend to 60 to 100 right? ... Smile..
Now Paul, let me ask you this why is it that some that are so strong with what Pensom wrote are not following what Pensom wrote and always some how have a GOOFY excuse as to why they are not?
Who is really bull shitting who?
Paul, I will say this last, when you get one bird ( I will not even say a kit) that does of what you stock for, as you wrote above. Let me know so I can go check you out and see what it is that some of those performance projects helped move your program forward... Let me know and I will be there with bells on..lol..
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Sal Ortiz
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Hector Coya
566 posts
Sep 27, 2009
4:00 PM
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Sal,When you get a kit of what your talking about,let me know,i whould love to see what im doing wrong,so i can improve. No disrespect.Thanks Hector Coya
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George R.
85 posts
Sep 27, 2009
4:43 PM
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Yeah Paul I will go see the Bird too
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George Ruiz
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rolleronnie
55 posts
Sep 27, 2009
5:17 PM
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BRING BACK THE MUFF!!!!!!
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Promoting The Birmingham Roller
The Greatest Aerial Acrobat!
Come Fly With Us!
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Hector Coya
567 posts
Sep 27, 2009
6:15 PM
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George,Ive seen Paul's birds roll,Have you seen Sal'S??
Hector Coya
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gotspin7
2559 posts
Sep 27, 2009
6:16 PM
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Sal,When you get a kit of what your talking about,let me know,i whould love to see what im doing wrong,so i can improve. No disrespect.Thanks Hector Coya
Hector, do I really sound like that?...lol.. Hey did not mean too, I just want to share what I believe in and that is all. Just like you do. Hey e-mail me and when I feel that I have a whole kit of them, I will welcome your visit. Also I did not take your post as disrespectful at all. You can reach me at, gotspin7@yahoo.com.
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Sal Ortiz
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