deano
234 posts
Oct 13, 2009
10:50 AM
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whos got the best rollers you have seen personally
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2009 1:26 PM
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
156 posts
Oct 13, 2009
11:18 AM
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deano what kind of question is that,are you looking for birds,Who got the best rollers there is no such thing as the best on any given day it could be anyboby and on the next day it will be someone else. Just my thought Dennis
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shukz
89 posts
Oct 13, 2009
11:52 AM
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Hey Rookie,y would the current #4th in the world be looking for birds?obviously deano aint looking for birds.
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Shukz(RSA)
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quickspin
1072 posts
Oct 13, 2009
12:02 PM
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He Deano, Hope everything is going good with you and your family. You got some of the best rollers. lol You will be one of the best to answer this question.
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Salas Loft
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deano
235 posts
Oct 13, 2009
12:17 PM
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family doing fine quickspin thanks hope you well dennis just thought i would start a topic off not looking for birds though
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3733 posts
Oct 13, 2009
12:23 PM
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I got the best......LOL
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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TheGame
644 posts
Oct 13, 2009
2:28 PM
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I have the best.....culls -_-
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
157 posts
Oct 14, 2009
4:30 AM
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WOW deano my bad I guess you have the best and Game I have some pretty good culls they been proven it on the roof of my house just pick um up off the driveway. Dennis
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3739 posts
Oct 14, 2009
4:41 AM
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deano, you seem like you may know something about roller pigeons, so rather than ask a newbie question, why not share a little with us regarding what you do or have done to develop your birds into the stock you currently have? Thanks!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
525 posts
Oct 14, 2009
5:45 AM
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That,s an ease question, Mr Cooper get,s the best of course!!JDA
Last Edited by on Oct 14, 2009 11:56 AM
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deano
237 posts
Oct 14, 2009
8:59 AM
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hi tony i do know alot about rollers as i have had them alot of years but still learning the birds i have going to stock shortly are good quality birds i only put proven rollers in stock dont have to be deep or frequent as long as its right in my eyes i breed from 8 pairs also value them birds around this time of the year depeneding what they bred if they dont show any signs of being a breeder they dont enter the pen again if they show me something might try to a different pigeon i only keep 2 kits of young birds plus 1 kit of old birds hawk permiting
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roller heaven
92 posts
Oct 14, 2009
9:22 AM
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Sacco rollers from Canada has the best
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Ty Coleman
772 posts
Oct 14, 2009
1:01 PM
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Thats a loaded question LOL. It is sorta like asking who is the best looking woman in the world, you will probably get a different answer from everyone.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
2573 posts
Oct 15, 2009
3:22 PM
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No one has the best, some just have better bred birds than others, and that can change in a generation or so.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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deano
238 posts
Oct 15, 2009
4:03 PM
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every ones right no ones got the best as birds are always different and every one has different oppinions and i dont think i have the best far from it yours in sport dean
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diamondrollers
341 posts
Oct 15, 2009
4:39 PM
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it true on any day any one can mess up or improve there strain of birds
sal
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2009 12:26 AM
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jt smash
71 posts
Oct 15, 2009
8:25 PM
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I know who has the best birds.
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diamondrollers
343 posts
Oct 16, 2009
12:27 AM
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now who would that be jt smash
sal
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cr250
280 posts
Oct 16, 2009
12:30 AM
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That would be me.LOL.Just kidding
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speedball
549 posts
Oct 16, 2009
3:14 AM
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its very very difficult to get consistency in quality that is letting me down. if only they can roll that roll everytime they fly. if only eh deano? when i loose them out if they are not tight rolling i go in and watch tv. f@ck em!
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2009 3:15 AM
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tou_vang
577 posts
Oct 16, 2009
7:32 PM
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everybody has the best because everbody has different opinions and the birds. the type of birds that u like and does what u think r best are the best for you but probably wont be for others.
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pana
9 posts
Oct 16, 2009
8:52 PM
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Hi deano, what do you mean by 'best rollers', just a bunch of good rollers or competition rollers that need to conform to kitting and unison breaking. No one has mentioned the current World Champion, does his result in the international roller competition have any standing or relevance when we talk about 'who has the best rollers'?
Steve
Melbourne Australia
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Rocky Lofts
107 posts
Oct 16, 2009
9:50 PM
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hi pana, have you got any good rollers?have you won any thing majer?you breed and fly masonos. big deal. i think that we all have the best birds regardles were they are from.
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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Ty Coleman
775 posts
Oct 17, 2009
5:39 AM
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Pana, maybe I'm taking your context wrong- need to conform to kitting and unison breaking- but this is standards set by the competition circle. It has nothing to do with a good roller, just good kit performance. Dont get me wrong either though, I am a die hard comp guy and I breed to the comp standards but it has nothing to do with the origional purpose of the breed which was the ROLL. I breed torwards extreme velocity, this does not make my birds better than the slower rolling birds, it is just what I like.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3743 posts
Oct 17, 2009
7:38 AM
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Rocky, I don't think Pana's comments were meant to imply that he had better rollers than anyone as the tone of your post might suggest. My take is that he is bringing up the point about what criteria is being used to determine the response to the original question?
He has a good point and so his question/comments are valid. With deano's experience, he could have phrased it more appropriately to avoid the digression in the discussion which your post so accurately illustrates. JMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Sound Rollers
71 posts
Oct 17, 2009
8:02 AM
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He who is without spin cannot claim the best throne.
John
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3744 posts
Oct 17, 2009
9:48 AM
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John, I think the original question from an experienced roller pigeon breeder was pointless as there was no context for comparison in which to formulate a cogent response. He might have did better by asking the question with some contexts. For example:
"Who has the best rollers you have seen yourself"? or "What characteristics are present in the best kinds of rollers". I believe this approach would have led to more educational and useful responses. Maybe I expect too much?? JMO
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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pana
10 posts
Oct 17, 2009
11:24 AM
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Rocky don't be smart! I never said anything about my
rollers been better, just asking a question, about the rollers we are talking about, over 30 years with rollers I've had and seen plenty of 'smokers' rollers by the true definition. Let's get back to the original question -who has the best rollers? All I'm saying is by what definition. Ty and Tony I agree with you 100% please don't think my comments were made to stir trouble.
Now Rocky, yes I breed and fly Masons what's the big deal your referring to, I'll ask you the same questions, do you have any good rollers? and have you won anything major? It's obvious by your questions that you don't know anything about me. Get to know me I'm a likable bloke, come over with Ralph, his a good mate.
Steve (Strati)
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Velo99
2172 posts
Oct 17, 2009
11:33 AM
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I see a need to define a point here. Just because a roller meets the standard for performance doesnt mean its the best.
The best is outstanding in the air and the breeder loft.
The best has frequency to match his roll.
The best has great style and velocity.
The best bird kits everytime,rolls whatever distance you have bred them to roll and breeds in kind.
The best doesnt have bad habits or has to have allowances made for a specific trait or mannerism.
The only drawback to this is each and every term I have used is relative to the manager and the judge.
When a fancier starts out its a numbers game fill the box and fly em out. A year later he is doing the same thing but now he has had a year to breed and get some experience watching a kit of rollers. Hopefully he has been to a friends house or tagged along on a fly and seen other lofts.
Second year he has to assess his breeders,breed and fly em out. Third year the same and so on. As he watches the birds over the years he gets a keener eye and develops his own preferences. He doesnt spew out the words written in a book or on a page. He speaks intelligently about the hobby he has grown into.
Will he have the same standard for best birds five years into this project vs what he had as a rookie? Probably not.
Will he have the same feelings about them at the ten year mark he has at five? Probably not.
As managers and fanciers we are constantly growing and learning.
Thats why we can never agree on ...
Who has the best birds?
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2009 11:41 AM
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rollerman132
354 posts
Oct 17, 2009
11:41 AM
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There is no such thing as the best, only better then. If you fly your birds hard and choose the best ones, you may have better then some day. LOL
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pana
11 posts
Oct 17, 2009
12:34 PM
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deano, I'm very interested to know more about the birds you fly and the methods you use to set your kit up for competition, with Quality 1.6 and Depth 1.6 we're talking serious rollers.
....hope your the Dean I'm thinking of, if not disregard above.
Steve
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deano
239 posts
Oct 17, 2009
1:25 PM
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yeah thats me steve i dont do anything special with my birds i fly young birds daily weather permiting old bird team come out in may then locked up late sept feed mainly wheat fly them every other day again weather permiting have me fair share probs flying to high plus the hawk and yes tony maybe i should of worded it better prob ment the best birds yous av personally witnessed
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Rocky Lofts
108 posts
Oct 17, 2009
1:53 PM
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hey steve, im not being smart. i reread the post .and im sorry if i have ofended you. like i said we all think we have the best. ps any mate of ralphs is my mate as well cheers.
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Cheers, Rocky
"Rocky Lofts"
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Hector Coya
571 posts
Oct 17, 2009
2:48 PM
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I think Tim Decker has some of the best around,or at least what Ive seen,Hes been consistent over the years ,always placing high in many competitions,Other win a big fly,then drop off the radar never to be seen again,tim is usually scoring big.Hector coya-SGVS
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RodSD
359 posts
Oct 17, 2009
11:02 PM
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The bests are probably those that won World Cup of which I haven't attended any or probably some other competitions. Competition criteria is probably higher than backyard fliers. Competitions bring the best(or worse) in us.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3746 posts
Oct 17, 2009
11:29 PM
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RodSD said:
Competition criteria is probably higher than backyard fliers.
Really? What "criteria" are you talking about? What do the comp flyers know that the "backyard" flyers don't? Is it the feed, they see and understand the roll better, management of a team, they know how to breed a family better? I have yet to read or see anyone that flys comp birds or who's comp bird standards are much different than a serious roller pigeon fancier who doesn't.
In my view, the one thing that creates a contrast is that the comp flyer puts them up to be scored on a specific day and so tries to attain maximum performance for the judge, a backyard flyer (of the type I have in mind) simply does not feel the same need to do so. For them, comp is not the thing, but the mindful breeding and flying of the birds are.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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XtraDeepRoller
33 posts
Oct 18, 2009
6:17 AM
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Tony asked:
Is it the feed, they see and understand the roll better, management of a team, they know how to breed a family better?
My answer:
YES.
We also do not become loft blind, or make false claims and boasts about how good our own birds are. When you put them up for ALL to see, you know that the birds can make a liar out of you on any given day, so we let our birds do the talking, NOT our tongues.
X
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Ty Coleman
777 posts
Oct 18, 2009
6:46 AM
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X , the man that started the family I fly quit flying comp for various reasons and became a backyard flyer. I call him to ask about setting up my comp team and what he would do is my normal question. But I will tell you this if he decided to fly comp again[which he want] you would see his backyard name at the top of the list.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3747 posts
Oct 18, 2009
7:13 AM
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X, talk about “blindness”, you appear to have missed the entire point I was making as you seem to have conveniently skipped over where I said and emphasized the following: “…For them, comp is not the thing, but the mindful breeding and flying of the birds are.”
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2009 3:04 PM
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Gringo
8 posts
Oct 18, 2009
12:53 PM
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deano who got the best u personaly witnessed?
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rolleronnie
57 posts
Oct 18, 2009
1:09 PM
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well said Velo99!
It all comes down to management.
A Kit or family of Rollers can only perform at a level that is directly attributed to the effort put in by the manager.
It's an old saying but it still rings true....
"You only get out of your birds what you put into them".
Ronnie.
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Promoting The Birmingham Roller
The Greatest Aerial Acrobat!
Come Fly With Us!
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XtraDeepRoller
34 posts
Oct 18, 2009
3:49 PM
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Tony,
You wrote this in your first post:
"a backyard flyer (of the type I have in mind) simply does not feel the same need to do so. For them, comp is not the thing, but the mindful breeding and flying of the birds are.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria"
To me that meant that you were referrring to the backyard flyers with your last statement. I'm confused, are you now saying that you were referring to the comp flyers with your last statement in that post? If so, you might want to re-write that post, because it doesn't make much sense the way it is written. If not, then I don't understand your reply to me, so maybe you could clarify that post. Or you can just keep me confused. LOL.
My post was pretty straight forward, no hidden agenda or meaning behind it, just my opinion. Easy to read, and easy to understand.
X
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XtraDeepRoller
35 posts
Oct 18, 2009
4:00 PM
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Ty,
I know who the man is that started your family, and I guarantee you that to be consistently successful in today's 20 bird kit competitions, he would have to change the ways that he currently does things as a backyard flyer. I'm not saying that he couldn't, I'm just saying that he would have to if he wanted to be CONSISTENTLY SUCCESSFUL in today's 20 bird kit competitions.
X
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2009 4:06 PM
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Ty Coleman
780 posts
Oct 18, 2009
5:21 PM
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X , if you want to see unison kit work then you are correct about the 20 bird fly, but if you want to see the best roller in the kit then you need to fly the 11 bird. You can not constantly watch quality and count the number of birds breaking in a 20 bird kit it is a guess at what every bird in the break did. You can't hide poor quality in a big break in the 11 bird as easily. Now if we video every 20 bird and then break everybird down on every break it would be more of a credible fly, you could get every bird counted exactly and poor quality would not slip through, not a guess.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2009 5:24 PM
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XtraDeepRoller
36 posts
Oct 18, 2009
5:49 PM
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Ty,
You can have quality AND unison performance. That is the ultimate that these little athletes of the sky can accomplish. Do all 20 bird comp teams have this? Of course not, but that doesn't mean it cannot be achieved. I have witnessed such quality teams, they are not a dime a dozen, but they are out there, and are being flown by real deal competition roller men. I have yet to see such a team in a strictly backyard flyer's loft, but maybe that is because they do not put them up for us to see.
Ty, if you have not seen such a team, then you need to get out more. I saw such a team in your area a few years back, when Clay Hoyle won the 20 bird Fall Fly, it was one of the best teams that I ever saw. There were plenty of large breaks, and the quality was not hidden, it was there for ALL to see. Ty, if you get around enough, on 20 bird competitions, and/or if you work hard enough on your own 20 bird teams, you will see what can be achieved. Keep an open mind, visit as many top flyers of 20 bird teams, and you will see that I am right.
The 11 bird fly showcases only the quality and depth of individual birds. The 20 bird fly, when judged properly, showcases ALL that our beloved Birmingham Rollers are capable of, and it is a sight to behold!
X
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Ty Coleman
781 posts
Oct 18, 2009
5:58 PM
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It is not as credible though. If it were taped it would be but the human eye can not view 20 birds at one time. Thats my point. Clay does hae good birds, I have a blue bar hen from his family in my B kit and she is a sweet hen.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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RodSD
362 posts
Oct 18, 2009
11:02 PM
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Tony,
I am a backyard flier myself and my criteria is less strict than if I would be a competitor. As a backyard flier I only compete with myself or trying to fulfill what I think is good roller. If I compete, then I will raise my standards and by comparing my birds with others, then I would know who got the better birds. To me being in a competition adds a greater incentive or motive to win so it would be backyard flier + more!
To me I define a competitor as having that criteria you are talking about as well ("mindful breeding and flying of the birds are") plus perhaps with more strict culling/selection. I got the feeling, however, that your definition of a backyard flier is actually higher than we might think as backyard flier so there might be a confusion there. It seems that your definition of backyard flier is almost sound like a competitor. Your philosophy of breeding and selection of birds seem competitive to me. I suppose the "criteria" is what gets us. Peace!
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ducket
54 posts
Oct 19, 2009
1:18 AM
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Hej Lads & lasses,
The difference between a comp flyer and a backyard flyer, is that the comp flyer has to get his birds ready for a definite day (or date) and on that day his birds and himself are open to any critic, this happens every comp day, comp flyers spend a lot of time training their birds and traveling around in an effort to try and see better birds and kits, we could all just sit home and talk about the day our kits were great, thats easy, anyone can do that.
It do`s not matter if you fly 11 or 20 bird kits, quality and depth will be seen, the only time it will be difficult to pick out top quality birds is if they are all top quality, and that is not likely is it.
I have said this before and I will go on repeating it, the only place to judge a kit of birds is by standing under them, filming them do`s not do them justice, you cannot get both quality and depth on film with one camera, you need two camera`s, one to film quality and the other for depth.
The best kit of Birmingham Rollers I have seen, was in Holland this year, it was flown by Ronnie Schoemaker, the spontaneity of the breaks was first class and the quality of the roll, was as good as I have seen in the Boro England, one thing I noticed in all the kits that weekend, was the cleaness of the rolls, there was no wing changing, coming out the wrong way, they just snapped out and back to the kit, fantastic, the Dutch lads have had a great year with their birds, if they keep this up, then the rest of us are in big trouble.
Hilsen, Eric Laidler
Denmark.
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2009 1:22 AM
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Ty Coleman
782 posts
Oct 19, 2009
4:42 AM
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DUCKET, was the kit you talked about above scored exactly to what the kit did. Were the exact number of breaks scored? Were the depths of everybird that rolled written down and then a mean of them all calculated and the same for every indavidual spin as far as quality? Or were they just guessed at? Just for fun take 10 scores and place them 20 pts apart on paper then add the multiplyers to the mix and can you get the lower kit to win ? There is to much room for error.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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pigeon pete
396 posts
Oct 19, 2009
11:55 AM
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Most competition flyers generally do certain things in a similar vein as the rest of the competiution guys because they all have a common aim. There ARE differing ways of going about it, and differeing ideas as to what constitutes the ideal competition roller and the ideal team, but attempting to produce good team performance, with quality rolling is one thing that should be common to all.
The term 'Backyard flyers' is a catch-all term for the rest of the hobby who don't fly comps. It is a meaningless term because it covers such a wide diversity of roller flyers.
They can range from mob flyers who have little regard for team or individul performance, or even about letting their birds cross with other breeds, to guys who just keep a few as pets, to very dedicated roller breeders who breed strictly for the highest ideals.
The later guy has maybe a couple of advantages over the competition flyer in his quest for perfection. Namely that he seldom needs to keep birds that he doesn't want, to just to keep enough birds for a team, and he doesn't have the need to breed from more pairs than are essential to progress his breeding programe.
Flying in competition, we necesarily need to produce birds in quantity, and may in the process loose sight of, or not even worry about the sharply focused breeding programe that is needed in the creation of a champion producing strain.
So, there is no need to argue the point about relative merits of competition v backyard as there are very dedicated and very lax fanciers in both groups. Much better to argue about the semantics of each others posts. If you were my kids I'd knock your heads together,lol
regards.
Pete.
(Flyer of competition rollers in my backyard).
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