SpinCityRollers
289 posts
Oct 29, 2009
9:11 PM
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Cheaters Never Prospers
It Bullshit and they Know it
HIGHWAY ROBBERY
What do you think Of the rule changes
I work Just as hard as anyone else and have to compete agaist the same level of comp in my region But because I live in a region that dont have many Pigeon people around. the Guy that live in the more rollerman populated areas get double the the amount of points even if he finishes 2in his region and still get more than I if I come in 2 in the final How is that Fair HMMM so Fishy who Voted for the change was it passed by the committee and why was it done was it broken. MY Main Goal Was to become a master flyer I was well on my way to doing it in 3-4 more years now It will take 15 yrs or more unless I win the major flys 3 yrs back to back to back Thanks Cliff and Jay You Guys are the best at what you do funny you both are real close to the master flyer Breaking point Hmm just seems fishy>
If it smell like fish then it is fishy
MAdMAx that dude the guppy
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 9:34 PM
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George R.
133 posts
Oct 29, 2009
9:26 PM
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Marlon
The criteria has changed twice since the Master flyer program begin.
I fought like hell to get the NBRC Executive Council to leave it the way it was but as you can see I lost the battle.
Guil Rand and Cliff Ball and Jay yandle led the charge to get the rules changed . when I asked Guil "why cant we try to achieve the master flyer status under the same rules that you obtained it under", he never did answer me.
I would suggest that you start a petition and let the NBRC members vote to change it back the way it was .
The award is not the same since it was awarded under two sets of rules.
it should have a asterisk next to the names and on the bottom of the page explain that it was awarded under different set of rules that were in place at that time.
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 9:27 PM
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SpinCityRollers
290 posts
Oct 29, 2009
9:30 PM
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I got the explaination last night of how it work What a bunch of shit Mein Im no scientist I just fly birds.
If you fly this then you get this but if this amount fly you get this 1 tenth of a point for this and so on so forth I bet you ii took a long time for them to figure out this scam there pulling. An were not suppose to say shit. Well I have to I dont care and they Know it and they probably dont care to have me in there club anyway because am just not "type"
Madmax
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 9:32 PM
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Phantom1
237 posts
Oct 29, 2009
10:04 PM
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I'm curious about this. Is this program outlined and published somewhere that I could read it? Or is it something that's only allowed to NBRC members and in its bulletins?
Thanks,
E
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fhtfire
2155 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:22 AM
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Actually the program was a joke back in the day...when you got points for club fly's....but I was 100% in agreement with the new rules change...and here is why.....I thought the opposite then you for the old rules......I thought how unfair is it that I get 35 points with 15 fliers....and Abel Ibarra in L.A. gets the same amount of points flying against 30 fliers.....the more the comp..the more points you should get.....I mean come on....if you fly against 10 fliers vs. 40 fliers.......that is a huge difference...actually the points system is totally fair across the board now.....you used to get the same amount of points if someone had 19 fliers vs...17 fliers...you just get points for every flier you fly against...How is that not fair...the more comp the more points....
As far as it taking you 15 years...well....it takes most that long or more brother.....the Master flyer is just that...MASTER FLIER>...if it was easy to get then it is not that special.....and if you look at the list...there are some big names that still have not got it.....and they are way past 15 years....
Just so you know...it was more the Guil Rand, Yandle and Cliff.....pushing for it....they brought it to the table...it was debated for about 3 months...and I mean....heavily debated...it failed a couple times for the vote until some changes were made....and well..it was close to unanimous vote for yes....and that was the little regions and the big regions.....points were brought up...but fairness across the board.....and the truth is...you could turn the tables with the old rules....why should the big regions get the same amount of points as the little regions when there is more comp to beat in the large reasons...that makes sense to me.....
I feel the rules are fair (finallY)...you get more points now.....and the smaller regions will get the same points...I believe NOBODY gets less points then the old rules.....the only real change was actual points for kits flown....It is also still hard to get in..as it should be......and you dont become a master flier in 5 or 6 years in reality so why should it be easy to have the title....
Really look at the rules before you get upset...your point was debated and was actually not debated very long...because the obvious is that the more kits flown the more points....just like the more kits entered the more qualifiers..same concept.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2156 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:36 AM
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George...the rules have also been changed 3 times....alot of the guys at the top have there points from club fly's and to me that is a joke...and you should not change the rules anyway...once you make them you make them...and if you remove the club scores for the future...you remove them from the past too..that is how it should work...but that was way before my time...and to late to change now....how many are close to the top with club points....how many are in the master flier with club points.....
The rules should be like they are now from the begining....just like qualifiers..the more fliers the more qualifiers...the more MF points the more fliers..the more fliers the more the competition you have to beat.....
In anything...that has numbers of competitors....the more competitors the more meaning to the first place....the more you had to beat.....take motocross.....I took 1st place out of 8 riders....then you can say I took 1st place out of 30 riders......no brainer......more comp....more of an accomplishment....I took 2 in my wrestling tournament...6 kids in my bracket......I took 2nd 30 kids in my bracket.....and in wrestling you get more team points if you have more in your bracket.....sounds pretty simple...
anyway....again....the MF...was totally debated....and again.....most Yes votes...I can get the exact amount of votes.....if I dig....anyway.....
Why petition something that ALL THE REGIONS voted on as RD's////it was debated heavily......and was damn near a unanimous decision.......why rock the boat....and I am far from my MF points and I voted Yes...so there is no hidden agenda..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2157 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:42 AM
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Oh...
Guil Rand and Jay Yandle are the most honest straight forward guys I know..they have a love for the club and put the overall club first....Please dont even question there integrity.......they would never put themselves before the club...period....Guil and Jay have been respectful and excellent communicators and took part in all of the debates...and Guils original plan was not what we voted on..we all changed and manipulated it.....until we felt as a majority that it was fair across the board...but I assure you there was no monkey business going on...and there were some good point brought up..and the executive committee is made up of some solid characters....and the lots of new RD's...so the good ole boy thing is not there either.....trust me...it was an honest straight forward debate.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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pigeon pete
417 posts
Oct 30, 2009
3:55 AM
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As an outsider may I say that no system is going to be fair.
I flew in a region with often just the minimum flyers in the WC, but at least one flyer, and when we had enough cmpetitiors, two from my area came high up in the finals every year. I have George Mason and Dave Moseley to name but two in my area, so to get through I had to beat some class acts. Just because you have 60 flyers doesn't neccesarily mean that the competition is tough.
Points awarded for WC places are not equal,
for example when I won in 2004 it was still a national region, so I had to compete against the rest of England, to qualify. Now there are just two regions that cover the North of England so getting to the final has got to be an easier job.
There were probably as many countries competing in 2004 as there were English flyers in the early flys. I was actively flying in the All England club in those early days but the WC was unknown to me. I saw the results in an American magazine, but presumed that you needed to qualify through wining a national fly or something.
The guys flying in it didn't exactly promote it,lol
Whether that was an organisational (distances to travel) or whether it was to reduce the competition I don't really know I never asked.
For the last few years we haven't had a fly in my area, so no chance to gain more points. I'm not on a rant, but I'm using my perspective over the years to illustrate that the value of points gained in any 'Master' system will change in an aribary way from year to year even if the rules remain the same.
We all just fly once in a roller fly, it is not a tournament, so that comparison holds no water.
To make it fairer , one way to go is to award only finals place points, but then again if you live in a tough region you may be one of the best in the country but never qualify. Another way would be to award regional points so you can become a California Master, or a New Mexico Master but that would obviously take a lot more paperwork, but it would reflect your status in relation to the local competition you have faced.
When you have been around the hobby for long enough, you learn who the Master breeders are, and who the Master flyers are and you don't need a league table to tell you.
Pete.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 3:57 AM
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Ty Coleman
789 posts
Oct 30, 2009
4:42 AM
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E, it is listed on the NBRC home page. Paul, I agree with you on the club points being used, thats a crock and thats were the * needs to be. The other thing is the World Cup points being used. The Master Flyer program is a NBRC program and should only award points to it's members for it's comps, the W\C is not a NBRC function !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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XtraDeepRoller
44 posts
Oct 30, 2009
6:07 AM
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Paul,
The real truth, about this ridiculous change to the Master Flyer program, is that a couple Master Flyers did not like that so many others were achieving Master Flyer status and that many more were getting close quickly. These Master Flyers pushed their issue onto the NBRC Executive Committee, with Guil as their point man, in the form of "correcting" an unfairness that they deemed was present in the way that smaller regions, in their opinion, had an advantage in the way points were awarded. IF, and that's a big IF, that was all that they were concerned about, why didn't they just keep the smaller regions at the awarded points level that they had ALWAYS been at and JUST increase the points awarded to larger regions in order to make it more fair to the larger regions? Instead, points were taken away from smaller regions, including NO points for second and third place anymore, and larger regions had their awarded points raised, BUT not as high as they would have been if they were just brought in line with the original point system that smaller regions received.
What would be the underlying reason for this? The answer is to make it much harder to achieve Master Flyer status than it was, and keeping their Master Flyer "club" smaller. This was NOT an issue that the vast majority of flyers wanted addressed, it was pushed by certain Master Flyers, and THAT is a conflict of interest, pure and simple. It should never have been allowed by the NBRC President and/or the Executive Committee.
The vast majority of regions are smaller regions. Do you think they would have voted for this change if allowed to??? Of course not. Put it up to a vote by the flyers, and see what would have happened.
With these changes, the Master Flyer program has been ruined with it's 3 different tiers of how points were achieved. The first change was removing local club fly points, that was done poorly because they did not take away those club points from those that had them already, now with the new change it is a much larger change in the way points are achieved and there is no way to fix it except to do away with these new changes, OR tear down the whole program and start everyone on the same page with a new award.
X
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 6:11 AM
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Windjammer Loft
988 posts
Oct 30, 2009
6:31 AM
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To me, this is just another reason for me "not" to fly in competition. Where is the "fairness" and
"equality" for "all" flyers??? I have to back up X on this. It smells awefull fishey to me to..
This whole judging system needs to be "revised" and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Fair is Fair....
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 6:35 AM
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George R.
136 posts
Oct 30, 2009
7:27 AM
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windjammer said
To me, this is just another reason for me "not" to fly in competition. Where is the "fairness" and
"equality" for "all" flyers??? I have to back up X on this. It smells awefull fishey to me to..
This whole judging system needs to be "revised" and gone over with a fine tooth comb. Fair is Fair....
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
That is exactly why I didnt want the rules changed ,our jobs as RD and VP, Prez, of NBRC is to look for ways to get more people to Fly Birds , not look for ways to discourage people from Flying .
I dont understand why we need to constantly change the rules ,this is just a Hobby nothing more and nothing less.
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George Ruiz
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3747 posts
Oct 30, 2009
7:54 AM
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We hold these truths to be self evident that the new rules are a lot more sain than the old rules.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3748 posts
Oct 30, 2009
7:59 AM
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How many people look at the Master Flier Award and say "because of these rules I am not going to join or fly"? If you are using that as a motivator or in your case a de-motivator then I suggest you seek to bring them on using different motivators. There are plemty of other reasons to join or to fly.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 8:01 AM
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fhtfire
2158 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:33 AM
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X,
I am on the EC...so I know exactly how it played out.....first off...only one person gets a vote in the E.C....so not matter how much one or tow people want something....you have to convince the rest of the EC....first off it was not about guys wanting to be master fliers and wanted extra points.....you still have to win to get the points and that is no easy task...lets first you common sense...
1. You could give a million points for 1st but you still have to get first...it is not just handed to you....so the argument of ....now its easier is just not true...just because of the rule change does not mean..the competition got easier.
2 why should the regions with less fliers get more or the same as the large regions....now it is just fair.....it is alot easier to get 1st place in my region that in some of the L.A. regions...sorry but that is fact....have you seeen the fly lists with all the heavy hitters in one region....so now you get points based on fliers...how is that not fair.
3 As far as counting the W.C. Scores.....the W.C. is the other big boy fly....and NBRC members will be rewarded for there good deeds....because being a MASTER FLIER means that you can do it against the Nation and the World.
4. IN the EC just because something is brought forward.....does not mean it will pass....the MF failed two voted before it passes....so that means it was not right.....and it was debated BIG TIME.....and trust me...EVERY POINT was brought up.....and you are right..we represent the many...and sometimes you cant make everyone happy...but most are happy with the decision...its fair...it will not be any easier or harder to win or get points......
SO many are at the top because of Club points......you all should be bitching because half of the fliers that are up there have club points and have not done shit on the BIG FLYS.
The EC has alot of top notch guys who are straight shooters......for once the EC is balanced between old and new blood so you cant just push thing through. and that is not what happened.
Again...I am on the EC...I know how it all played out...and the original proposal..did not have the points system based on fliers..that was developed by all during the debates and fine tuned by Guil...by no way shape or form can you push an item through....maybe it used to be that way.
I just went through all the email on the MF program and the orignal proposal was changed big time...and lots voted no to the first couple rounds.....and just about everyone on the EC gave input back and fourth.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 8:48 AM
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fhtfire
2161 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:47 AM
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Mad Max,
I have every email from the debate....from Abel...to me....to Ramsey...ect....I know that I cant release them to anybody....but if you read them...you will see how it was done and feel secure in the knowledge that the many was in mind.....
If you want more fliers start making more..shake bushes..get you kids involved....whatever you have to do......I will take my region 9B....we have 15 fliers and 30 kits because I beat the bushes....I beg, plead, pay for NBRC dues...any way to get the numbers up....I am not kidding..I have paid NBRC dues out of my own pocket to get people to fly......Our club pays for the second kit....but ends up being a kit and a half because of expenses...we keep the price down to help fliers....Trust me...I am on the phone and email....getting fliers on board....now if I could just keep the new ones from quitting....and the old dogs consistant...we would have more fliers....but this may force smaller regions to merge with larger regions...
There are a lot of smaller California regions...with just 10 fliers that voted yes on the measure too.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2164 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:53 AM
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why would somebody not fly because they get MORE MF points....Most regions will benefit from the more points....and if you are flying just for master flyer points...then you are backwards....you fly to win and support your region...and if you do good the MF points are automatic....to be honest...I would love to be an MF...and it will happen with hard work and consitant fly numbers.....and if you no your shit and are a TRUE MASTER FLIER>..you should not even be sweating it.....because you will take first most of the time...
and Regionals are really small points...win the big boy and they stack up like wood.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2165 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:43 AM
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George,
I have kept every email from the EC....I have went through every email concerning the MF program...and I yet to find and email from you. YOu say you fought so hard against this in the EC...why no emails....if I am mistaken and somehow I did not receive your emails...could you forward them to me....I like to keep a record so I have something to go back to if there is a future issue.....I have seen alot of emails from Abel, Myself, Bob B, Jay Yandle, Cliff, Troy C., Nick C, Guil Rand, Bayanni, Alex H., Tom M., Ramsey (1) and others....but I have none from you....if i was fighting like Hell....I would have emails flying everywhere.
The fact is..the ec voted on the item many times and it failed....and it was agreed upon by the majority of the EC....it was not pushed by a one individual...it was discussed, debated, massaged and then the final product was done....we even voted on numerous different scoring systems and this one was fair across the board.....you cant please everyone....and there will always be a majority and a minority.....and I have been on both sides of the fence.....but you accept the voice of the many and move on to the next battle....if you get drug down on the past you cant move to the future
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2166 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:44 AM
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George,
I have kept every email from the EC....I have went through every email concerning the MF program...and I yet to find and email from you. YOu say you fought so hard against this in the EC...why no emails....if I am mistaken and somehow I did not receive your emails...could you forward them to me....I like to keep a record so I have something to go back to if there is a future issue.....I have seen alot of emails from Abel, Myself, Bob B, Jay Yandle, Cliff, Troy C., Nick C, Guil Rand, Bayanni, Alex H., Tom M., Ramsey (1) and others....but I have none from you....if i was fighting like Hell....I would have emails flying everywhere.
The fact is..the ec voted on the item many times and it failed....and it was agreed upon by the majority of the EC....it was not pushed by a one individual...it was discussed, debated, massaged and then the final product was done....we even voted on numerous different scoring systems and this one was fair across the board.....you cant please everyone....and there will always be a majority and a minority.....and I have been on both sides of the fence.....but you accept the voice of the many and move on to the next battle....if you get drug down on the past you cant move to the future
rock and ROLL
Paul
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George R.
137 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:56 AM
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Paul
I am not sure why you didnt get the Emails but I debated it quite a bit , I explained why It should not be changed .
I will look for emails give me a second .
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George Ruiz
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George R.
144 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:15 AM
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Paul
I have several more emails i would take up a few pages of Tonys website if I put them all in.
I know I am breaking the ec rules by posting the emails but I dont even know why we have such a rule in the first place we should not have anything to hide from the NBRC members after all we work for them.
I still dont know why you didnt get my emails but maybe you would have considred my points of view and all the NBRC members that I talked to and let them know about the changes the Guil Jay Cliff wanted to make
.
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 10:16 AM
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fhtfire
2167 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:30 AM
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George,
I dont have any of these..could you forward them to my private email....paulfullerton@sbcglobal.net...I am glad that you had them.....Because i was starting to wonder why there were no emails from you.....send a test email through EC too...I want to see if I get it.....
Anyway....George.....like I said in the last post....we have both been the majority and the minority....in decisions in our lives...but if you are in the minority....you accept and move on....but alot of fliers agree with it and most of the regions large and small agree with it....why stir the pot..especially when it was mostly yes votes...anyway.....I did not mean to question you...but I did not have any emails..and it did not make sense..do you have emails from the points chart debates...thanks
rock and ROLL
Paul
I dont know if you are supposed to post EC emails in a public forum...but I dont know.
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fhtfire
2168 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:43 AM
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oh...and I dont know why I did not get your emails...but I know there were issues for awhile where I was not being able to send to everyone...anyway....I was actually with you at the begining in my thinking....but when I looked at the big picture and in alot of other sports....points are awarded based on the number of competitors...then I thought the same as qualifiers....the more fliers the more qualifiers.....so the small regions again...have to go up against more comp...but that too is fair...and I know your points were listened to and debated....I am sure I seen some of your points as people replied back and fourth......I did not go through the body of each email...so you may have been in the middle of the body...anyway.....your points were heard and debated....again...there will always be a minority on some issues.....
As far as letting all the members know....do our state and city officials bring every issue to the people...not that is why we are R.D.'s....when we voted we voted for the majority of the fliers feelings in our regions......so it is the same as the whole NBRC voting.....
rock and roll
Paul
You cant make everyone happy.
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George R.
145 posts
Oct 30, 2009
10:47 AM
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Paul
I will go ahead and erase the emails from the EC because I know there is a line of EC members who would want me brought up on Rule violations so I would be ineligible if I win the VP vote.
I will forward you all the emails when I get a chance .
If I am Voted in as VP I will make it my business to find out why the NBRC members cant see what the EC council is discussing after all we work for the MEMBERS. A good administration should always have some degree of transperancy.
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 10:52 AM
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fhtfire
2169 posts
Oct 30, 2009
11:09 AM
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I agree...I also agree that you it should be public record on how each RD votes
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BA Rollers
291 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:17 PM
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I have no problem with the new tier status of the MF points system. Its seems reasonably fair as can be. What I have a problem with is if me or you can't use our club points, neither should the other guys who have earned it. The NBRC Master Flyer Award will always be a joke to me because there are so many on the list who got their with club points, points none of us can use. I remember one time a newer guy was saying something about a particular local flyer and him being a master flyer. I laughed and said no he isn't. He looked bewildered when I said that. I told him the story of how half the guys on the list up until a half dozen years ago got their points through club flys, not the two bid flys like the rest of us pee-ons have to. Every MF should have whatever club points they have in their total removed. If they don't like it they can man up and get to flying some pigeons and earning some points in the two big flys.
This is one reason why the flying of roller pigeons will always be a blue-collar hobby that lacks a growth of respect. Sometimes it takes a dictator to get things in order.
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 12:17 PM
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George R.
146 posts
Oct 30, 2009
12:33 PM
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hey Mac hope all is well with you and your Family
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George Ruiz
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Ty Coleman
791 posts
Oct 30, 2009
2:52 PM
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3 As far as counting the W.C. Scores.....the W.C. is the other big boy fly....and NBRC members will be rewarded for there good deeds....because being a MASTER FLIER means that you can do it against the Nation and the World.
Paul, I strongly disagree. The W\C has nothing to do with the NBRC besides dictating that we fly our birds in the BOP migration. They are 2 seperate org. If we are going to use W\C points why not let everyone use there local club points ? Which I strongly disagree with. Get all of the flyers scores from the NBRC prelims and finals, no club fly's or W\C fly's and equal out all of the points no matter how many is in the region and then you have a valid program, until then it is a joke.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
2590 posts
Oct 30, 2009
4:10 PM
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In other words you want the same points for less competition ? yup, sounds bout right
(But because I live in a region that dont have many Pigeon people around. the Guy that live in the more rollerman populated areas get double the the amount of points even if he finishes 2in his region and still get more than I if I come in 2 in the final How is that Fair )
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
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XtraDeepRoller
45 posts
Oct 30, 2009
4:51 PM
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Hey Pirate Paul,
With all due respect, you may know what was discussed on the EC, but you don't know what went on behind the scenes and you also don't realize, or fail to comprehend, how this issue was put together and put before the EC, by who, and for what reasons. There was no great interest in this issue among the flyers, most of the flyers, to this day, don't even know that the EC has changed the point structure. I have brought it up before many flyers, and not even one of them knew about it. I even had to explain it to Scott! LOL. This issue was conceived and put forward by certain Master Flyers, and a few flyers in larger regions that were convinced that they were being treated unfairly in the point structure. As a matter of fact, flyers in larger regions, and certain Master Flyers, are really the only ones that are happy about it even now.
All of you, that are supporting the new point structure in this thread, have completely disregarded this part of my post:
"IF, and that's a big IF, that was all that they were concerned about, why didn't they just keep the smaller regions at the awarded points level that they had ALWAYS been at and JUST increase the points awarded to larger regions in order to make it more fair to the larger regions? Instead, points were taken away from smaller regions, including NO points for second and third place anymore, and larger regions had their awarded points raised, BUT not as high as they would have been if they were just brought in line with the original point system that smaller regions received."
If making the point system more fair was the real reason behind these changes, then why didn't they just give the larger regions the same points allotments that smaller regions already had, instead of taking away points from the smaller regions? I have asked this question many times and nobody that pushed this through the EC could ever give me a good reason. Why, because one doesn't exist.
X
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 4:54 PM
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George R.
147 posts
Oct 30, 2009
5:08 PM
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X
I knew what it was all about from the get go , and that is why I opposed it, certain people on the EC have a way of telegraphing there every move and I can see it coming from a long way.
do you remember when some one got a guy to circulate a petition to change the NBRC fall fly name to NBRC Championship . Well that person that circulated the petition never flew in it before and he still hasnt flown it since. its as he fell of the face of the Earth LOL
what happened there was that a certain individual who sits on the EC council wrote up a proposal and when the EC voted against it he got that individual to circulate his petition and send it to a vote to the Members . I guess if at first you dont succeed do whatever it takes to get what you want EHH.
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 5:28 PM
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SpinCityRollers
291 posts
Oct 30, 2009
7:34 PM
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Mein what a response
Hey Paul first off I think you talk to much as a nominee and I love to talk especially for someone who has only been in for a few years. Am still shaky with my vote I need more convinceing please. Any way
Let get down to business
I have to let off my Bird chest.
First Off My Main Goal was to become the second African to become a master flyer to me that is special and has always been my personal when I was younger. so I set my sights and been studying ever since 2002 ever since Kevin Mcray came here to visit.
Master flyer club points should have been voided
I guess
And If there was a problem with small region getting Points faster than the big ones then there would be more small region master flyers then "
right"
And who tell you I fly against less comp than Abel or all the other guys my guys here are some of the toughest around ask about it we Are very competitive and the small guys are always finishing in the top of most of the flys so just because there are more dont mean there any better or competitive than us Look at utah they had double the flyer we flew with them we did very well and now we dont fly together anymore so now we have less people that have pigeons and paul am not a recruiter(get more kids) I fly birds if they show interest I will then see how far it goes.
And if people get more now then I want all my extras I didnt get when I flew with more flyers then
You see the problem here
Maybe the simple thing to do is scrap the hold thing i guess
WHAT A MESS!!!!!!!!Like the BCS in college
MAD mAx ThaT dude
I guess I better Just Pack Up and Go back to CAli Cali
to get more points
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 9:04 PM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
567 posts
Oct 30, 2009
7:46 PM
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Scott.... Holly Molly,I thank your right on there. Everybody should be scored the same point wise,just not that many points should be reworded. The point system should be tossed out the window and go back to the 60,s 70,s and 80,s way of scoring.JDA
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3749 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:38 PM
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Brian, I think you got a point there. Need one leader of the NBRC who bites the bullit and makes the necessary adjustments to put everything in its correct order. So it doesn't hurt too many feelings maybe two Master Flier lists. One before it was made sain and one after the fact.
One more thing; if you fly in a region where you have only 10 competitors you should recieve less points for placing. There is simply less competition. If you are in a region where 30 or 40 are competing there simply is more competition and placing should be awarded higher. For those that don't like it you need to quit splitting up the regions where there are only 10 competitors. If you have already done that to yourselves you might want to desolve your region and combine yourselves into a larger region. OR, work your butts off and recruit more people to compete in your current region.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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George R.
148 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:41 PM
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Nick you might want to read this again
"IF, and that's a big IF, that was all that they were concerned about, why didn't they just keep the smaller regions at the awarded points level that they had ALWAYS been at and JUST increase the points awarded to larger regions in order to make it more fair to the larger regions? Instead, points were taken away from smaller regions, including NO points for second and third place anymore, and larger regions had their awarded points raised, BUT not as high as they would have been if they were just brought in line with the original point system that smaller regions received"
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George Ruiz
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SpinCityRollers
292 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:50 PM
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Hey nick I wont even bother
Simply hopeless So we should pay less too right We Have no choice but to fly by ourselves there is no one who want to fly with us thats close enough simply that . So we should recruit new people that know nothing about flying professionally and build big regions of new flyers sounds like a way for Nbrc to get richer and alot more bird junk bird out there What happen to the bird when they Quit this is a addiction. I will leave the recruiting to you guys and Focus on Competing against the best since they have more competition How come the flop in the the finals if they were that mush better than the smaller guy why dont they dominate us then It is not so my friend we fly for 15 min each you think the bird feel the competiton or the guy that work relentlessly to prepare night day no sleep worry after worry Bop That my competition not the other flyers
We all put the same efforts to win Why cant we Be REWARDED THE SAME are not all men create equal
Big or small so and so on
MAd MAx THAT DUDE THE guppy the small guy that they think less of because where i live
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 8:53 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
470 posts
Oct 30, 2009
8:59 PM
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Paul thanks for standing up for some outstanding Roller men and men in general. I have the privilege to fly with Guil Rand. He is very passionate about the sport and hobby. I have watched him talk birds and keep my ten year old son interested. He has given many birds to help others, and has paid for kits to be flown when a fellow flier did not have the means. He trained, paid for, and flew a kit last year for Paul Bradford when he passed as a memorial to him. Cliff Has sent me a bird also and threw in a few extra to help me get started. These are good men.
I live a hundred miles from Guil, but on a club fly day he comes out to my house to see my birds, sometimes making the drive by his self. He has a great wealth of knowledge about and has helped me to understand them better.
I understand how change may up set some. However I do believe that the changes were made by men that thought these changes would only improve the Club, and the birds we fly.
Master Flier should be difficult to achieve. If you get it in a few years, then it was given to you, and not earned. As far as those who earned the Master Flier award by another set rules. Put an asterisk by their name of you like. However I bet they still fly birds that are better than most, and I would think that some of them feel that maybe they did not do enough to be called a Master Flier, and that is why they want others to earn it.
SO THAT THE TITLE MEANS SOMETHING.
I like the new point system and if you hope to make master flier by just winning your region, then you need to rethink what it means. I think that a Master flier can put up rollers against anyone and score well most of the time. Not just the competition in our area. Heck even I can beat some of the guys here occasionally, but I am no where near being a master flier. Most of the guys on the master flier list score well almost every time they fly, still. I do not think that once something has been rightly awarded you do not change the rules and then take something away.
Enough ranting! Live by the rules. Breed, Train, and fly better rollers and WIN. Then you can be a Master Flier too.
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RT Williams
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SpinCityRollers
293 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:10 PM
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Thank for your Post RT Williams
Who are you where do you fly
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wishiwon2
220 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:25 PM
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I have to say that I believe the way master flyer points are awarded now is better than in the past. I agree with the 'fairness' of the system being used now. I know the men being accused of promoting an agenda that supposedly would benefit them more, it simply isnt true.
I fly in a smaller region, just like George and Max and its tough. There are National champs and WC champs in my region, so dont sing the 'were small but tough' song to me and expect sympathy. The way pts are calculated now is a fair method, because its based on the amount of competition. And George, if you feel like pts are being taken away from you (smaller regions) maybe those small regions were getting more than was fairly deserved to begin with.
"I work Just as hard as anyone else and have to compete agaist the same level of comp in my region"
Shit man we all work hard ... but this award is to recognize winning. Keep winning, regardless of who you fly against, and you'll win your title. The method for calculating pts now actually favors you earning MF sooner if you're winning all the time.
"MY Main Goal Was to become a master flyer I was well on my way to doing it in 3-4 more years now It will take 15 yrs or more unless I win the major flys 3 yrs back to back to back."
So which means more to you, something that took you 3-4 yrs to accomplish or something that took 10 yrs plus. It should mean something to receive the award, not just by punking a few ppl in a regional event. I dont agree with counting club fly pts. but that is over and done with, in the past. Put an asterisk or an excuse by their name ... what ever makes you feel better about thm being recognized, then go earn your own reward and quit talking like they werent worthy to receive it. And maybe somewhere along the way, try to find some satisfaction in the journey, the freinds you've made, the great birds/kits youve seen fly instaed of bitchin about what you havent got yet.
This whole thread has an air of 'entitlement' and whinning about it, it pisses me off, sorry if I vented too strongly about it.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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SpinCityRollers
294 posts
Oct 30, 2009
9:41 PM
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Hey are we flying homer racers they fly all together and compete against each other. We fly kits of birds on different days and times. The people don t compete the birds do. no one is whinning but it is to much now (They say shush mad Max dont ruffle there feathers we shouldnt say a word just pay the dues and shut up) I dont understand
I know and remember we do still have the hall of fame for the 15 year small region guy that have to do 3 times as much because where he lives
Madmax that dude
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2009 7:01 PM
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XtraDeepRoller
47 posts
Oct 31, 2009
6:49 PM
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Can I get my vote back?
I knew that I should have voted for George.
X
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
472 posts
Oct 31, 2009
7:23 PM
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SpinCity
I am newbie that has been flying for about 1.5 years. I am still trying to get my birds figured out, and hoping to have a respectable score in my First NBRC fly on Thursday. I fly in Utah and live at Starvation State Park, where I am the Park Ranger.
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RT Williams
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SpinCityRollers
295 posts
Oct 31, 2009
8:09 PM
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Good Luck
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George R.
153 posts
Oct 31, 2009
8:45 PM
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Williams good luck on your Fly !
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George Ruiz
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fhtfire
2175 posts
Oct 31, 2009
9:00 PM
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X....you can still call Pat Vanderpool and get your vote changed...tell him you made a mistake...you still have time to vote for George if you want to....I am sure you can work something out.
Paul
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katyroller
625 posts
Oct 31, 2009
9:30 PM
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rt,
Good Luck! I hope to be flying my second "first fly" next year.
Tracey
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winwardrollers
323 posts
Oct 31, 2009
10:54 PM
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If the WC and NBRC flys are all you can get master fly point for...Just go through the records and eliminate any... local flies from the master list..that way everyone is on the same page.
It is not going to make much of a differance when it is all said and done to the present list..but would reflect a more accurate list.
bwinward
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macsrollers
216 posts
Oct 31, 2009
11:31 PM
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I was and am disappointed in the changes in the Master Flier program. But it is what it is and if I am blessed to live long enough and my hard work and luck allows me to achieve Master Flier status, then I will be thrilled as it was harder to achieve then in the past. But does that mean we should demean those that have achieved it in the past under looser or different criterias? No way. I guess I am getting old as these things don't seem to have less impact on me then they did even last year. In our regional fly I felt I should have qualified and was beaten by a team that should have finished no better then 6th in our group. But I wasn't the judge and accept what happened. It bothered the hell out of me for a week or so but when I put it in perspective it no longer does-well maybe a litte. The main thing is that I know that my birds are at a level that can compete with the best out there, and I am happy about that as that makes me feel that I am giving justice to the the fine birds I started out with from Doug and Don Ouellette, and the other great guys who have blessed me with good birds like Tim Decker, Randy Gibson, and Willie Wright. Knowing that I have perpetuated the fine spin and have myself mastered the ability to get that out of them in a team effort is my reward. Do I want the master flier award- yes! But I have my master award already by achieving what makes me enjoy my birds every day. The debate will never end and the rules will never suit everyone. If you don't love your rollers enough to outwiegh the politics, then start collecting stamps as a hobby. Of course I am sure there will be some politics involved in that as well! Enjoy your next fly! and congratulations to those who have achieved Master Flyer status!
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centralvalleylofts
122 posts
Oct 31, 2009
11:37 PM
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why all the hub bub over mf points do you guys really feel that inatiquate. who gives a rats rear. no matter what we do or what changes are made some will always pay the price. what really counts when we die is what people though of you as a person and competitor. your birds will talk and your score will show it but this little bickering will never end.
i could care less if i never win a competition . what i do care is what impresions i leave behind in this sport.
i do not mean to offend anyone but life is too damd short.
my 2 cents central.
p.s. so long as man makes rules they will always be imperfect.
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XtraDeepRoller
48 posts
Nov 01, 2009
4:06 PM
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Damn Paul,
Aren't you even going to try to keep my vote?
Try a little of that politicking on me, or something!
LMAO.
Hope that you win Paul, I'll look forward to serving on the EC with you.
X
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