Scott
2604 posts
Nov 09, 2009
3:58 PM
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Cliff, the rules are also clear on the BOP also, it states "chased off" the time out is for them to regroup, so they have 5 minutes to make it back to the kit unless they are chased off.
What you will usually see from this stuff is trying to make excuses for problem birds .
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 3:59 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2133 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:09 PM
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Scott,
You may be right about problem birds, but there is too much wiggle room in some of the rules. Those could be written to make it more clear and understandable. Some of these guys have genuine, legitimate issues with the interpretations. I know that it is all very clear to you, the way they are written. But many lack that clarity.
Cliff
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
478 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:25 PM
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Scott
First I agree with you. I will not make an excuse, or try and make my better by interpeting the the rules in a funny way.
However after reading this discussion, and the NBRC rules, I can see the gray area. I hate to admit it! I do not see any rule, or comment talking about excluding a bird because it is Down. Other than it being the second bird, and it rolls down, it gets 10 seconds before the kit is DQ'ed. If one bird lands, it is an out bird, not a Down bird. By rule you do not have a bird down until a second bird is down, by landing, or rolling down and remaing down for 10 seconds.
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RT Williams
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fhtfire
2195 posts
Nov 09, 2009
4:40 PM
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That is what I read too...Williams....IT says nowhere the word down bird..only out bird and out bird is defined.....down is only used to explain the second bird....if the rule stated that a bird is out UNLESS it lands then it is considered down ....and cant return to the kit....or wont be scored if it does...it has to be explained...and Cliff..I will have to disagree..there is no gray area...the stuff Scott and a few others have said the rule means...it is not stated anywhere what they are saying..it is what they feel and nothing less.....and I do agree a bird that lands should be done...but I also dont think it could be a problem bird...things can happen in the air to make a bird come down....and make it want to go up....a bird could hit another bird in the air and get hurt and come down..but then after it realizes it is not that hurt and the instinct to want to be with the team kicks in and it goes back up and starts working again.....what is wrong with that..its no different then getting your bell rung in football and staying out a play and then going back in...a bird can do that too...and that does not mean its a problem bird...it means it had an accident.....
Anyway...I think the rule is written well for what it means....it is not written well if you want it to mean somthething totally different.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Velo99
2198 posts
Nov 09, 2009
5:55 PM
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OK
Maybe this will help as to why the rules was written this way.
If an outbird disappears and you cant see him what do you do if a bird lands?
You cant call it a dq because you dont know what the other bird is doing. Therefore it is an outbird not a downbird.
This bird disappears for ten minutes and rejoins the kit,what do you do?
Score it.
Til it rejoins the kit it cant be scored because it is... an outbird.
There are too many real scenarios that have played out with this two bird out scoring system. The only way to amend it to the way some of you see it is to go to a single outbird scoring system.
Downbird is a yet to be defined term used here on this thread. I have yet to read the term "downbird" in any publication,competition rules or any action taken in the rules,other than ending a fly or initiating a DQ, for flying a kit in NBRC competetion.
Outbird on the other hand is a bird that leaves the kit after time in has been called.
Scott,
Dont try to blame the birds for your misinterpretation of the rules. There are too many things that can happen to an amped up kit in a fly that can make a bird land early,crash or behave erratically. I think your blaming that behavior entirely on the flyer or the birds is closed minded.
The rules dont address the length of time the first bird down has to ressurect because it is an outbird. You keep dragging the rules for the second bird over to the outbird.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 5:58 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3765 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:25 PM
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I am pretty much in agreement with you on this.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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XtraDeepRoller
52 posts
Nov 09, 2009
6:50 PM
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Here's a way to make it clear for all you "loophole searchers".
Change the rules to 20 birds MUST be flown, for a full 20 minutes, no out birds allowed, and as soon as 1 bird is down, for ANY reason EXCEPT a BOP, it is a DQ.
I'm all for it, no excuses, no loopholes, plain and simple. After reading all these misinterpretations, I think that it's time to tighten up the rules, and seperate the men from the boys.
X
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JMUrbon
765 posts
Nov 09, 2009
7:50 PM
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Ok Paul and all I have read the rules so lets get what it says out of the question. That is not the question at least to me. A bird down is a bird down I dont care if it is the first or the last. once it is down it is no longer part of the kit. I have always considered the first bird down and I will continue to do so. If that means I no longer judge for you or anybody else then so be it. I will not change my stance on this subject. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 9:27 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
480 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:19 PM
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Joe i think we agree with you. However, it (the rules) does not say that.
Everyone needs to compete by the same rules. So if we are to do and we wish (NBRC memmers and Competitors) to have a down bird as more than an out bird, we need to say so by rule.
Otherwise our judges are using what tradition, or thier personal standard is, not what the rule is. And this can make a differnce as to how a kit is judged, across the country. And as a national club all kits should be judged the same.
JMO
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2009 8:19 PM
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JMUrbon
766 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:44 PM
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There you have it RT, That means I wont have to volunteer my time anymore judging birds.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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pigeon pete
429 posts
Nov 10, 2009
2:52 AM
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If you guys change the rules to only one bird out, do you think that will remove all doubt?
You will still be debating about should a rolldown be an out bird or a down bird, and what if it hits a tree is that the same as hitting the ground, (what about a roof and is a TV ariel part of the roof?) and if so, is hiting another pigeon the same as a rolldown etc etc ad nauseum.
The only way you will get rid of grey areas and loopholes is to throw out the out-bird rule.
Either stop judging once you have less than the minimum or less than released (still open to counting errors), or just concentrate on judging the pigeons as we have always done. If any birds leave the kit for whatever reason they cannot score, simple and obvious.
And don't get the idea that you will end up with loads of kits with loose birds just because you don't have a rule against it. Fanciers want their kits to kit, and score, (and win) so I think that you will find little difference between the kitting characteristics between a country where they consentrate on judging the kit, and countries where they spend half of the time counting it.If it were not so then only the U,S would ever win the WC.
Pete.
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2009 2:57 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
582 posts
Nov 10, 2009
4:04 AM
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Joe... Good for you,stick to your gun,s, Seem,s to me that it was if a bird lands and takes off again after 10 seconds you were DQ.If a person,s birds can,t fly the time,So be it, DQ. Scott I also agree with you,It,s not complicated.JDA
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3767 posts
Nov 10, 2009
5:21 AM
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Pete, once upon a time you could not have a (one) bird out and if a bird lands (one) the DQ was involked. I don't know why it was changed and when, but there could be a good argument to bring it back.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
2605 posts
Nov 10, 2009
8:38 AM
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Kenny, I absolutly blame such behaviour on a weak pigeon, and I blame the flyer for gambling on it. It is once in a blue moon that a problem pigeon never showed weakness prior to fly day. Either that or someone flying youngsters that havn't been prooven to hang with the big dogs yet, again the flyers fault.
I have burned myself far too many times gambling on bone head birds, but I didn't go wanting to change the rules or look for loopholes to make up for "my" short comings.
Once upon a time, the W/C rules where the time in and number of birds was concerned was loaded with such loopholes that some wanted to abuse such as this. That is why the W/C rules are cut and dry, what you declare is what you fly, period.
The NBRC decided to take the lesser road of allowing leeway for weaker pigeons and poorer managers to try and fix their problems after the door was open, but they also closed the loophole, never ever has what is been debated here been an issue before, it has always been clear that the first bird down for 10 sec has been a down bird, and is still clear unless you want to read something into it that isn't there. ( it shall be considered the second bird down. )
(Dont try to blame the birds for your misinterpretation of the rules. There are too many things that can happen to an amped up kit in a fly that can make a bird land early,crash or behave erratically. I think your blaming that behavior entirely on the flyer or the birds is closed minded.)
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Scott Campbell
"God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2009 8:52 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2135 posts
Nov 10, 2009
10:18 AM
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Nick
Once upon a time, long long ago, the WC scored only 1/2 turns and up. Many many kits received NO score at all, and no evaluations of their kits from the judges....and the flyers became disinterested in flying. The WC lost money, as well as participation. Soon the WC decided to bring back 1/4 turn scoring and "most" flyers competed happily ever after.
This is no fairy-tale.
Cliff
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Velo99
2199 posts
Nov 10, 2009
10:34 AM
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Scott,
I am gonna quit before this gets ugly. I still like you and respect your opinion.
See ya next week.
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Scott
2607 posts
Nov 10, 2009
10:42 AM
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Kenny, there is nothing here to get ugly about, I'm looking forward to next week !
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless"
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2137 posts
Nov 10, 2009
12:23 PM
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Scott,
Regarding your statement, "The NBRC decided to take the lesser road of allowing leeway for weaker pigeons and poorer managers to try and fix their problems after the door was open....", you bring up another interesting point for discussion. If my history is correct, the WC wrote the rules that the NBRC chose to fly by. But it is actually the NBRC who now flies by the rules that reflect the traditions that started the WC history. It was NOT the NBRC that changed the rules, it was the WC. The NBRC did not "DECIDE TO TAKE THE LESSOR ROAD", From what I understand, the NBRC just enforced the rules instead of change them. I would love to have seen what the WC flyers would have voted to change...if they had been given the same opportunity the NBRC awards to its flyers in voting to change fly rules. But that is all history now and the WC has changed the rules because of the problems they had to deal with. Oh, and one other thing. It was the NBRC who first removed the 1/2 second rule and the WC followed a few years later. That can hardly be characterized as "the lesser road". But who is keeping up with such trivial facts? Both organizations have their good and bad points, and both add to the enjoyment of Roller flying.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2009 12:28 PM
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JBow
114 posts
Nov 11, 2009
10:50 AM
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I love hearing all this talk about Norms kit. Scott, George. Norm had no roll downs in his kit. You two have now idea what it was like that day. And also you have no idea what it like here in north central kansas. i would give my eye teeth to have you live here. after one fly you would be running home to calif and nevada with your thumbs up your ars. Norm, My wife and i shouldn't even have released birds that day but we did. We don't like dnfs here in our region. what we entered gets flown pretty much. We have no ghost kits. Norm, Dixie or I are not complaining about this. It was simply a terrible day to fly pigeons. I have no dought in my mind that the birds would have been right up there points wise if we would have had good weather. And by the way this is the 3rd time in a row that we have had bad weather for our regional here in north central kansas. Last Norm had no culls in his kit. Jim Bowen
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2009 10:53 AM
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Scott
2610 posts
Nov 11, 2009
11:23 AM
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Jim, heavy wind can certainly push birds down where there can be mistakes made, but to give a pass on such mistakes sure opens up a can of worms with other flyers where their birds make mistakes such as rolling into trees ect. and wanting the same pass ? How much wind is too much ?
Anything can be blamed on such, at what point does managment play in such as birds being strong enough to handle the wind, or why did just those two have a problem and not the others ?
Personaly I don't ever see myself giving such a pass (nor have I seen such) as it just opens it up too much , but the bottom line is it was the judges call.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2009 11:32 AM
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JBow
115 posts
Nov 11, 2009
12:26 PM
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Scott i agree with you. Jon Farr made the right call. To me this whole thing is a non issue. It was just a terrible day to fly pigeons period. PaPa Nick your throwing stones in that pond and making waves again. lmao Jim Bowen
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3775 posts
Nov 11, 2009
5:19 PM
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Jim,
I like to watch the ripples.....LOL.
We are going to move our fly away from the seasonal change in an attempted to get out of the wind and rain, especially in Oklahoma and Kansas.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
555 posts
Nov 11, 2009
5:39 PM
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Jim,
I disagree with you. There is no question that the weather was awful and not conducive to flying a kit of pigeons, but 2 birds went into a spin and hit the ground. Albeit they were only 10 ft off the ground when they went into the spin. I personally thought the scoring should have ended right there based on the stated rules. The birds were probably not rolldowns in the strictest sense but the fact remains they spun into the ground. Where do you draw the line?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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wishiwon2
224 posts
Nov 11, 2009
7:49 PM
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Alright, I'll confess. I did my best for a circumstance I had never encountered before.
I allowed the score to stand based on 3 considerations;
1) the weather was bad and in my opinion contributed to the first bird crashing. The rules state a bird is not to be considered out as result of extreme weather. When the second bird came down, I asked the scribe to note it on the sheet. We would continue scoring and sort it out at the end.
2) My gut and opinion was that because 2 birds had landed it was DQ. But with the first bird having re-joined the team, there was a question of what to do. At the time the second bird came down, there was only 1 bird down, not flying with the team ... as the other had resumed flight. I read and re-read the rule and there was nothing to support my opinion. The rule says "second" bird and there was only 1 bird down. The first had been "out" and I scored accordingly, not allowing any other birds out to score. But, when it rejoined the kit it wasnt out anymore.
3) The primary responsibilty for me as a judge was to select by score, the best teams to represent that region. On that particular day that team's score was inconsequential. It didnt change leadership of the region. Im not going to punish a guy for trying.
I made my decision to allow the score, and I stand by it. The rule was absent to support what I felt, therefore, I followed the rules as I understood them. It was a judgement call, the weather was not good, the rule was unclear and the score was of no consequence to the region.
I feel badly for the flyers who put birds up that day. I believe they could have done well under better circumstances, they have done so in the past. A flyer the next day put birds up in a downpour rain, I had to try and watch/score them (It washed my eyeballs), it is what is. Weather is one of the challenges we face when competing with rollers, same as BOP. I gave the benefit of the doubt in an unknown circumstance to the flyer. I would do the same again. I dont believe management could have altered the way that kit flew on that day.
If something good can come from this experience; I hope there will be some further discussion and that the rule will be clarified for how to treat a bird that is down (for any reason) and later rejoins the kit.
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Jon
If it were easy, everybody would do it
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JBow
116 posts
Nov 11, 2009
8:46 PM
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Joe norm told me that one hit before time in and the other was after time in was called. the one that hit first took off and the other stayed on the gound for a great while. But irregardless the birds had no chance any way. If a guy releases his birds for a fly and he has one land on the loft roof and maybe one bumbed or rolled into a tree as long a the flyer hasn't called time in he can do what ever he wants to get his kit up. after that its up the birds.
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fhtfire
2196 posts
Nov 11, 2009
8:52 PM
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Jon,
I read the rules and re-read them...and I had my brother...who is a nerd...and is very good with comprehension....just to make sure I am not totally bias or something...anyway...my brother came to the same conclusion as alot of us....and the same conclusion you did...there is no rule..the first bird is out...notwhere in the rules does it say the 1st bird is down..down is not even in the rules for the first bird...the rules only state the 1st bird is out....and out birds CAN return to the kit....and is specifically says SECOND bird will be considered down and DQ.....so I feel you were right......
I keep reading the rules over and over...and nowhere does it state...the word Down bird for the second bird...unless it is still down when the second bird is down...
Jon..I would have done it the same way..the same call...the weather...of course..I was not there..but to me extreme....is so Windy they cant even stay over the loft....but if it is that windy...you wont get a score anyway....or rain so hard that the birds are forced down....or fog...etc...extreme...is extreme....like a weather warning issued on your news channel.....that is usually extreme...anything else to me is just a bad day for flying...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3776 posts
Nov 11, 2009
9:18 PM
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The judge made the correct decision at Norm Boettcher's house. There were three people who confirmed that decision. The Judge; the RD; and the scribe. All three accustome to the rules and experienced in the same.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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JMUrbon
767 posts
Nov 11, 2009
10:32 PM
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"Joe...it does not say ANY bird that rolls down...has 10 seconds..it says the second bird. There is not intent of the rule....the rules say NOTHING about a first bird rolling down....having 10 seconds...the only thing it says about the first bird is that it is out...NOwhere does it state when the first bird lands it is considered down and out....and never to return....we cant sit here in say the intent of the rule....because it is not a gray area....it states in black and white.....the intent of the first bird coming down...and even landing.... We have to remember...if it does not state it..we cant assume.....the rule is not worded in a way that we can even say the intent....if you wanted the bird to be down and out never to return..then the rule would say it....it would say..."if the first bird lands after time in....the bird will be considered DOWN and can not longer return to the kit...but it DOES NOT SAY THAT>..so what if the bird crashes and lands in the tree.....and then returns....if you follow what the rules say...then it can return......this rule is black and white...not gray...Kenny is right..and unfortunately some dont agree and are trying to change the rule right before our eyes....guys I am no dummy and I have read the rule...20 times...and it is clear...the first bird can land and return to the kit...when it rule state specificly the second bird has to land and has 10 minutes...that that is what it is talking abotu 10 minutes....that first bird can land...fly around...crash...can basically do whatever it wants in the 20 minutes and then can return back to the kit at any time and be scored...it says nothing to the contrary....but it does talk about "
Paul if this is the way that we are going to interpret the rules then I will be have to say that you will no longer see me in any of the NBRC flies. I have been judging birds for close to 30 years and I have never heard such BS. I dont know why this subjuct has struck a chord with me the way it has but I am truelly disappointed in the way some are seeing it. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
2612 posts
Nov 12, 2009
2:51 AM
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I don't get it either Joe , never have I seen this rule debated, not sure how there can be a second bird down without a first one , no reason in the world to quit judging though. I'm heading out the door now on the last leg of the finals here where the first bird down has 10 sec. or else LOL
( it shall be considered the second bird down. )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 12, 2009 2:51 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2138 posts
Nov 12, 2009
6:30 AM
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Guys
I have no idea why we have this problem with understanding this obscure bit of information. Joe and Scott have their view on it and others have their's. Several flyers have expressed their interpretation of the rule. I don't think we will resolve it here on this forum. To hash this out, will take a word by word examination and review by the EC and a vote of the flyers. I have a feeling that history and background must play into the total understanding and most of us do not know what that history and background is. This rule is a WC rule that I thought was patterned after fly rules used by the NW Roller Jockeys, late 80's- early 90's. There appears to be more to this than just understanding the English language, however. Personally, I can see both sides of the issue. Before this thing goes South, let's take a wait and see attitude 'till the holidays are over and the NCF has been completed.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 12, 2009 6:31 AM
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fhtfire
2197 posts
Nov 12, 2009
8:02 AM
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Cliff,
I really do not think it has anything to do with past history....the rule says what it says...it does not matter what the intent is...or what people believe...or what people think....Dont get me wrong..I think the rule should be changed...if a bird is down it is down...but the rules dont say that.....everyone keeps latching onto the second bird down means the first bird is down..and that is true....if there is one bird sitting on the roof or in a tree and the second bird comes down..then they are both down...but that is only if the first bird is down when the second bird lands...but some think just because the rules say the second bird down will trigger DQ...means the first bird is down because it uses the word Second...they have to use the word second to explain the last bird down....but the rules only talk about the first bird as being out....nowhere in the rules explaining the out bird does it say down and nowhere does it say the first bird lands it is considered down and can not longer score.....what I just said would be in the rules if that was the intent....
but again...not saying I disagree with Scott or Joe...on having a rule..I agree with them both...but I am not a dumb man...and words and writing were one of the things i was good at in school and in life....and I am sorry..but it says what it says...
Cliff is right..all we have to do is bring it to the EC....Cliff...fire the blast so we can get the ball rolling....lets get the rule clarified.....that is what we should do in the first place...either clarify the rule or change it......but Cliff brought up the good points...most dont know the past...and intent cant be used in any contract or rules....if the word intent is used it then triggers a clarification from a governing board.....like in UNION contracts....once management or the Union says intent or this is how I read it.....then it goes to PERB....for a clarification on the meaning of the rule...and everything is taken into consideration.....History...both arguments....possible intent..if the the authors of the rule are still around...industry standard......a track record of it going a certain way.....so....Although I agree with Joe and Scott and the others on what the rule should say....I think that some of us read it the rule for what it says and not adding things or words it does not say..like the word down explaining the first bird....when the word down is nowhere explaining the actions of the first bird...and the fact that there is no gray area....and no double meanings....and the fact that one sentence could have been added to prove INTENT..by saying....The first bird is considered down and not out of the bird rolls or lands when both feet are on on the roof, ground, tree or any platform or perch...the bird is condidered down and CAN NOT return to the kit...if it does the bird will not be scored...
And Scott..it says nowhere about 10 seconds for the first bird...it says SECOND only..and once it said Second it now clarified and marked a bird that has 10 seconds and that is the second bird only....you words like ANY....to explain any of the birds released but once you name a bird the second bird..you are only talking about the bird named.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Scott and Joe....lots of us agree with how the rule should read....and I am sure it will get straightened out...in the EC
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JMUrbon
768 posts
Nov 12, 2009
8:37 AM
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So long as we are in agreement that we agree to disagree and take the matter to the EC Im good with that. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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fhtfire
2198 posts
Nov 12, 2009
9:27 AM
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Joe...LOL....you know me brotha....I have no problem agreeing to disagree...and I am sure we will get this all ironed out...I am glad this came up..because it really made me look at the rules and this is a situation that needs to be looked at....or one sentence added stating the first bird is down and cant return to the kit and be scored.....but when we all look at this rule...we have to not follow the herd...but actually look at the rule and put ourselves in the exact situation as a judge and a flier...and decide if the rule will make it harder to judge and keep track of birds.....or if as a flier....you will be able to support that new rule if it happened to you......
The more black and white and the more a rule is clarified...the better we will all be in the future....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Joe...I also look at it this way...if you pick your A-team and a bird gets amped and hits before time in..then you can not count that bird if you want...if your birds are up and you have called time in.....they should be up enough to work...and if one rolls down....or lands..then that bird has a problem and should not be scored or allowed to go back up...and if they are not up enough..you called time in too soon.........so a kit that is firing on all cylinders and it is after time in.....and you birds are working...they should be high enough to not roll down....or land.....if you have problem birds in your A-team..it was the fanciers fault....but we all know our birds have accidents.....but that is also part of flying.....if a bird crashes that never had before then that again is flying....and the bird had a problem (obviously)..if it did not..we would not have to exercise the rules...I myself...like you....I am sure have already removed such birds from our A-team....Now extreme weather can be a helpful factor...but that is extreme.....to me extreme is whenever the weather service issues a weather warning...for extreme weather....usually a STORM....or high winds.....if the weather service has not issues a storm warning..to me....nothing else is extreme....we could define extreme weather too...like winds over a certain MPH...or heavy rains.....that are so bad the birds get forced down....and BOP is pretty much a no brainer....but I think some thinkk we need clarification there too.....like chased off.....what does that mean...chased off out of site...or chased off from the kit....anyway.....clarification hurts nobdody...but makes the rules legit......so I feel we need to go down line by line on all the rules...and not change them but clarify the intent....and that is not hard to do....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2139 posts
Nov 12, 2009
11:28 AM
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Paul
This EC is just about to get it's new elected members on-board, I suggest we ask the 2010 NBRC EC to see if they want to take up this issue. I think Joe Dan is on this RPDC board and can see both sides, it will probably, be up to him, as to how and if, the EC addresses this issue.
The EC is usually looking for a well-deserved rest these last few weeks before the new EC is elected. I look forward to welcoming the new NBRC board.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 12, 2009 11:29 AM
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Scott
2615 posts
Nov 13, 2009
5:59 PM
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Paul, where does it say that it isn't a down bird ? show me and I will change my mind.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2203 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:20 PM
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Scott,
It says that any bird not in the kit for any reason is an Outbird....it talks about extreme weather, BOP attack, being captured and even if it lands....and an outbird can return to the kit....it talks of the second bird down...assuming the 1st bird is sitting on the roof...that fist bird is out..even on the roof....the second bird down triggers the DQ...if the bird is in a tree...on a wife...on the loft roof...even on a neighbors house...hell even if it flys so far away you cant see it...it is out....
So basically....I need to see where it says the word down anywhere explaining the first bird....only the second bird it says down...and nowhere does it say it cant return to the kit if it is down..becuase it never talks about the first bird being down...it only talks about out..so an outbird can return to the kit....
Lets say a bird comes down....flys behind some trees....and does not come back up.....then you see 10 minutes later come back to the kit....was that bird down or out....we cant say...we could not see....that is why the first bird is considered out..
lets say the first bird is gone never to be seen again....and a second bird comes down and lands....you dont DQ...why..the first bird is out....and the second bird lands.......it is not a DQ right..you still wait the time....that first bird may come back....or that second bird that landed decides to go back up.....do you still score....yes....because two birds have not landed...
Scott again...I agree with you....and feel as you do...but the rules need clarification..as well as many other rules.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2204 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:37 PM
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Scott...
and that second bird down is only talking about the trigger for a DQ....two birds down will trigger the ending of the fly....the first bird down is only an outbird until the second bird lands....
We also need clarification on alot of other parts of the rules...BOP attack....for one...well attack is to go after..if a BOP is flying around and the birds start freaking.....no time out....the hawk has not attacked...attacked it cut and dry to go after...not be in the same area....Extreme weather...what is that..we need to define that....birds chased off by BOP are not considered out birds.....what is chased off....so far you cant see them anymore....chased off from the kit..still in the sky...but not with the kit anymore...should they regroup....well they were kitting before the hawk split the kit...are they no longer considered out after 5 min...if they are still in eyes veiw........
like above...is a down bird and outbird...the first one...can a down bird return to the kit..even if it never says the word down bird explaining the first bird anywhere..but it does say out bird....in the rules..and basically a bird that is outside the kit...is out...flying backwards...smoking a cig...landing.....flying away....basically any reason the bird in not in the team it is out...now dont you think it would have been so easy to just say...."a bird that has landed is considered an outbird and DOWN...The bird can not return to the kit and will be considered down throughout the fly. If a second bird lands it is now a DQ" or something to that affect...basically when you write rules or read rules...if it does not say it you cant make assumptions....
Anyway Scott....you need to tell me anywhere talking about the first bird....being down and cant return to the kit and my mind will change....it only talks of the down bird when refering to the second bird...assuming the first bird has landed....and that is correct...if a bird in on my loft and a second bird lands...two birds down....but that is all it says...nowhere does it say...the first bird is down and out...and cant be scored..it is only an outbird until the second bird lands..then and only then does it matter if the first bird is down....as soon as the rules state SECOND bird..it is only refering to that bird as a trigger..it named it second...
anyway....again...i have proved it says it nowhere....about the first bird being down....show me where it says anything about the first bird being down and no longer can be scored.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3798 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:49 PM
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One pertinent point:
Prior to time-in, the flyer may delete from the kit, or release additional birds as substitutions for, any birds that land, crash, or are captured by predators.
Second pertinent point:
The kit is "in judgment" for 20 minutes after time-in or until the second bird lands, whichever occurs first. However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in unless driven down by a bird of prey or extreme weather. A bird down that spontaneously crashes (after one bird has landed) shall be given up to 10 seconds to resurrect and resume flight or else it shall be considered the second bird down.
Third pertinent point:
Although it cannot score while apart from the kit, a pigeon shall not be considered out if it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, even if the pigeon lands or is captured.
A forth pertinent point:
A group of 5 birds is the minimum number that can score if the remainder of the kit are returning directly from a roll, have been separated by extreme weather, or have been chased off by a bird of prey.
Final point:
the judge’s decision is final and anyone verbally or physically attacking the judge will be disqualified from the fly and may be banned from future NBRC events.
This does not apply if it is found that Scott Campbell is the judge.
Just kidding Scott
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3799 posts
Nov 13, 2009
6:52 PM
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Jon Farr did a great job because he read the rules and did not envolk anything that was not covered by the rules.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2009 6:54 PM
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XtraDeepRoller
55 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:02 PM
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Paul,
It says: "(after one bird has landed)".
If a bird that has landed is not "down", what is it, "up"???
A second bird cannot be down unless a first bird is down. Plain and simple. You need to stop trying to split hairs. Get the rules clarified if you wish, but as I said before, I have never seen a judge interpret it the way that you do, and I will continue to call it the same way when I judge.
X
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locoloft
142 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:17 PM
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X made a good point on his post 52 why baby the culls lets fly by example on what we want as a true birmingham
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Scott
2616 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:19 PM
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Exactly X , this last sentance also says the same , there can't be a second bird down without a first, just common sence.
( be considered the second bird down. )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2206 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:21 PM
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X you are right...if the first bird is down and is still down when the second bird has landed it is a DQ...but the argument is ...can that first bird go back up...yes....according to the rules..the first bird is only an outbird until that second bird lands..then it is a DQ...
all the (after one bird has landed) is only talking about what triggers a DQ...two birds landing....one bird landing is just out.......and that quote is in the "fly time" section...on what makes the time and what triggers a DQ....
The outbird section is what says it all.
I am not splitting hairs...there are no hairs to split....and where does it say a down bird cant return to the kit....that is what I want to know.
Lets see..Jon did, Nick does, Velo 99, RT williams...most on this thread are saying that it does not say anything about a down bird cant return to the kit...it only talks about second down and a DQ in the fly time section..
X...I totally agree with you, Scott and Joe U....I think a down bird should be down and that is it...but again...the rules dont state that...R WIlliams said the same thing.."as much as I agree"...the rules dont say it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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locoloft
143 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:36 PM
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So lets see its okay for a bird to come down catch its breath for a couple mins then go back up rested and ready
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fhtfire
2207 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:41 PM
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Scott
Exactly X , this last sentance also says the same , there can't be a second bird down without a first, just common sence
Scott that sentence is in the FLY time section and only talks about what triggers a DQ...it says nothing about the first bird being able to return to the kit...of a bird is on the roof and a second bird lands...well..they are both down and DQ..that is all it says...it is only talking about fly time...nothing more...that part is self explanitory....two bird on the roof DQ..after 15 minutes you keep your score....
so if a bird lands..and then takes off again..rejoins the kit....and then another bird lands....that second first bird has no longer landed..it has taken off again...a bird or plane or whathave you has landed once it left the air....but when it takes off again...it has not longer landed..now it is flying..the second something starts moving again..the status has changed..
Example...that car has parked in that spot....as long as it is in that spot it has parked..as soon as it starts diving again...it is no longer parked....
if another care pulls up while car a is parked then two cars are parked....if one drives off and the other car drove off...now one car is parked and one car is driving....now if one car is parked and the other car parked then two cars have parked or the the second car has parked hence two cars are parked...so two parked cars are a DQ....LOL!!!..LOL!!!
You guys...I totally agree with you...just like most said on this page....but rules have to state it.
Wrestling...two shoulders have to be on the mat to be a pin....if one shoulder is down and the second shoulder touches it is a pin....but they have to be down at the same time....if one bird is down and the second bird is down it is a DQ....but like wrestling if the first shoulder comes back up..and the second should touches...not a pin...
my point is..that it states second bird down will DQ...what if the fist bird is no longer down....its only down if it is no longer flying....if it is flying again...it is no longer down...you can only be down if you are down...and if you are not down you are up...up in the air....LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
The fact is the rules need to be defined.....and again..I agree with you guys...in your thinking...
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fhtfire
2208 posts
Nov 13, 2009
7:47 PM
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Hey loco...
an outbird can leave the kit catch its breath and then rejoin all rested....the problem is....most birds that land 99.9% of the time DONT GO BACK UP..becaue they came down for a reason....they are sick, hurt, weak, or just not in the mood...I have NEVER had a bird come down and land and return to the kit..unless I chase it off or a BOP comes in...
now a rolldown..they may return if they dont hit hard.....if they do...they have a knot on the head and stay down..so to be honest...it should never be an issue...but that one time out of a hundered that a bird comes down and says ah hell...I am going to fly agin...maybe after 15 minutes when the kit starts coming back down...who knows....but according to the rules it is just an outbird...but again...we can beat this horse to death....
Trust me..when the new members come into the EC...a rules clarification will be done by the EC....and Scott and X...I will be pushing for the first bird DOWN to be DOWN AND OUT>.if it lands on any perch, roof or platform and is no longer FLYING..it will be considered down and will no longer be apart of the team if it returns.....becaue I agree with all your thinking...I wish the rules were stated that way.
rock and ROLL
paul
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locoloft
144 posts
Nov 13, 2009
8:16 PM
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Now it states if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 mins will be DQ.Now my guess its saying if the first bird land its out FAILED to fly 15 mins regardless if it goes back up, so when the second bird come down within the 15 mins is also then DQ.Kit disqualified
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George R.
166 posts
Nov 13, 2009
8:26 PM
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Your right , the Bird did fail to fly the WHOLE 15 minutes so it should not be able to rejion the kit at anytime after it lands.
i have seen Birds that take off with the kit , fly about 5 minutes then land on a pole or wire , wait for the kit to fly then as the kit is coming down the bird will rejion the kit, what kind of judge would allow a Bird to do that???????????
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George Ruiz
Last Edited by on Nov 13, 2009 8:27 PM
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locoloft
145 posts
Nov 13, 2009
8:44 PM
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Hows it going Georgie, ANY GIVIN DAY the best bird will and could come down on you and as a flyer i would not let a judge do that at my house I myself will call it a bird down and iv done it before in my club.no need cutting corners to make time
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fhtfire
2210 posts
Nov 14, 2009
9:16 AM
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loco,
You have to realize that when they are talking about down birds first and second bird....look at the title...FLY TIME....we are talking about scoring and if the bird can return or not..that is not covered in fly time....that passage is only talking about what will make a kit DQ and the times the kit has to fly.
You would not look up scoring or outbirds in the fly time section....the outbird section covers birds away from the kit during scoring....and that is what we are talking about...either way...again...I agree with you and Scott and everyone.....that is why the one sentence needs to be added to clarify that the first bird down is not out it is down and out and cant return...
And loco....you cant call anything if you are the flier...only the judge can make the decisions....if you chose to count birds down and disrupt the judge while scoring...they may tell you...to either give youself a DQ or let the judge do his job.
Again....I myself do NOT put up with problem birds and a bird with issues would not be in my kit anyway....and second..I already stated..99.9% of the time..a bird that comes down DOES NOT GO UP..so it is irrelevent...and would most likely this issue would only be an issue 1-1000 flys...and if birds are coming down...crashing going back up ect...the team will not be doing very well...no team will tear it up with problem birds...that is fact..so...all we need is clarification on some of the rules so we are on the same page..and dont have to debate issues that are really non issues.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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