Velo99
2202 posts
Nov 14, 2009
11:06 AM
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This looks well and fine here on the forum,but to add that "one sentance " into the rules will require a major rewrite of the rules.
The other sections are tied into the outbird rules. The outbird rule would have to be changed. The discount rule would have to be changed as well as the second bird down rule. I think we should either leave it or change to no outbirds. Changing to declare a downbird unscorable would make it harder to judge and keep the correct score. As it has been stated before it is an unusual situation and most kits that would actually do this are probably gonna dq anyway.
Rememeber this whole thread was based on a hypothetical situation. Do we really need to change the rules to this degree over a what if?
jmho
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2009 11:08 AM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
489 posts
Nov 14, 2009
12:56 PM
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George,
The whole 15 minutes, maybe the key to DQing the early lander. I will have to look at that closer.
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RT Williams
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Ty Coleman
809 posts
Nov 14, 2009
3:13 PM
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If , I was judging the kit if the downed bird returned to the kit I would score the bird. I have had this happen to my kit before in prep flys here at the house. I have had them roll into the tree tops and stay there until the kit came back by the tree and then rejoin the kit. I just consider it a out bird for the seconds it is out.If a second bird does the same and then stays for 10 seconds the kit time is stoped and the score is finished . That was what I saw when I read the rules.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2009 3:15 PM
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locoloft
146 posts
Nov 14, 2009
3:50 PM
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We will always see things different if not we'd be clones and who wants that.Its all right no matter witch way its read or seen its up to the judge and its final and when it comes to major flies like W/C and NBRC we don't just get any ordinary joe he will know what to do we hope.
Paul
Your right I cant but I said club fly,wouldnt do on a major fly cause he would do everybody the same we hope, but thats how i feel about it.We fly in my club twice a month for 5 months 10 flies total, and not every judge knows all about the rules but they can see and count and were lucky to find a judge at times so thats why i will DQ myself and my club members feel the same, heck they have ratted me and others out at times but its all good its for fun right.
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fhtfire
2213 posts
Nov 15, 2009
3:18 PM
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Hey Loco,
Oh...Club flys...I would do the same and have...one time my birds were doing real good....but it rained so hard....and I mean..you could not see the house across the street...the birds....basically got pushed to the ground.....instead of calling a time out....or even waiting....I just said...lets go get some breakfast...fly is over...and all the members agreed to keep my score before it started raining..they had only been in the air for like 10 minutes...
I agree with the clones thing too.....we must all remember that these debates as long as they stay cool like this one....so many people learn...how many people on this forum....took out the rule book and read all the rules and for most I am sure it was the first time....every debate....someone learns something.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
2617 posts
Nov 16, 2009
11:23 AM
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Well you guys won't guess what happened, yep this exacact senerio , the bird was called down and deemed an extra bird as should be.
Ty, they aren't supposed to roll into tree's ect. that is the point , don't make excuses for such birds and your program will move forward.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2009 11:23 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3804 posts
Nov 16, 2009
1:09 PM
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Was the bird down for more than 10 seconds? Under which rule did you declare the bird out of play? Do you think landing and crashing are the same thing?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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XtraDeepRoller
56 posts
Nov 16, 2009
2:00 PM
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Nick,
It wouldn't matter if it landed, crashed, had a heart attack, or stopped to take a crap on Scott's head, if it's down for more than 10 seconds, it is DOWN. Period.
X
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3806 posts
Nov 16, 2009
3:12 PM
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X - show me the rule.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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XtraDeepRoller
57 posts
Nov 16, 2009
4:54 PM
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Here ya go Nick,
Fly time
The kit is "in judgment" for 20 minutes after time-in or until the second bird lands, whichever occurs first. However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in unless driven down by a bird of prey or extreme weather. A bird that spontaneously crashes (lands, has a heart attack, or stops to crap on Scott's head) shall be given up to 10 seconds to resurrect and resume flight or else it shall be considered DOWN.
X
LMAO
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3807 posts
Nov 16, 2009
5:37 PM
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Here ya go X.
Fly time
The kit is "in judgment" for 20 minutes after time-in or until the second bird lands, whichever occurs first. However, the kit shall be disqualified if more than one bird fails to fly for at least 15 minutes after time-in unless driven down by a bird of prey or extreme weather. A bird down that spontaneously crashes (after one bird has landed) shall be given up to 10 seconds to resurrect and resume flight or else it shall be considered the second bird down.
I think you forgot some of the language.
ROTFL
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Southplainsroller
20 posts
Nov 16, 2009
6:38 PM
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I am new at this guys, so dont bite my head off lol, but I am a little confused. So if a bird lands/crashes and returns to the kit before the 10 secs is up then it is still scored?
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XtraDeepRoller
58 posts
Nov 16, 2009
6:45 PM
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Hey Southplains,
Only in the fantasy land that some of these guys live in.
X
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Ty Coleman
812 posts
Nov 16, 2009
6:50 PM
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Southplainsroller
That is the debate, brefore 10 sec or after 10 sec, and I think it is how the rule is read to me. But there is that little thing that says the judge has the final say and it appears that went to Scotts head.That is why it is so important to clarify these rules. There for the judge has something to answer to and not make there own rules into there personal interpritation. No offense meant Scotto.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3809 posts
Nov 16, 2009
7:25 PM
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If a bird crashes and no other bird has landed it is nothing more than an out bird. When it rejoins the kit it is nothing more than an out bird returning to the kit.
If one bird has landed and a second bird crashes it has 10 seconds to regroup and fly. If it does not do it in the 10 seconds the clock stops; the fly is over. If 15 minutes has not elapsed then the kit is disqualified.
Too many people are inturpiting the rules to match how they feel about certian issues. The judge has to stay within the rules and not interject his concepts.
Scott said he did just that and he has the final say in that comp. fly as the judge.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2009 7:27 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
493 posts
Nov 16, 2009
8:15 PM
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I had my wife read the rules, She was an English major in College until she got wise and went into bussiness/IT instead.
Her interpretation..
If a bird leaves the kit, it is out and unscorable unless it leaves because "it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, even if the pigeon lands or is captured". If a bird leaves, but not for any of those reasons, it unscorable for the rest of the fly. In other words once an out bird always an outbird. If you have two out birds 3 minutes into the fly, you done scoring, and hoping they stay up for 12 more minutes, so you cna be scored for those 3 minutes.
Interesting, and you guys thought Scott was tough. LOL
FYI, I did not tell her anything except what happens when one bird lands?
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3810 posts
Nov 16, 2009
9:36 PM
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rt - get someone else to read them to you
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
494 posts
Nov 16, 2009
10:23 PM
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Nick
Where in the rules does it say an outbird can return to the kit to be scored?
I am not trying to be an A--, just trying to get a better understanding of the rules.
I think Scott is right that once it lands, it should not be able to return and be scored. I also do not think a rolldown should get 10 seconds.
These are my opions, But I am a newbie, and still learning, So my opions can change.
It was funny listening to my wife tell me what she thought the rules were. She tolerates my pigions, like a tolerate her cat. She saw no difference whatin what we call an "outbird" and a bird that lands early.
Maybe would should have some one that is not involved in the hobby read are rules, so we say what we want to say, and not what we think we are saying.
It is fun to fly and meet other roller guys, I do not really care what the rules are, as long as it stays fun for me, and everyone else.
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3811 posts
Nov 16, 2009
10:34 PM
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Out-Birds
Except for a 15-bird kit, scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit ("out bird"). Scoring shall be suspended but timing shall continue if 2 or more birds are out. Although it cannot score while apart from the kit, a pigeon shall not be considered out if it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, even if the pigeon lands or is captured.
Out birds can be scored once they return to the kit. As long as there is just one out bird the remainder of kit of 15 or more can continue to score. The kit cannot score once two birds are considered out. As soon as one bird of the two return and there are atleast 15 birds the kit can be scored.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Ty Coleman
813 posts
Nov 17, 2009
3:28 AM
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Nick, I dont believe it but we agree on something again. LOL I will also add until the rules state clearly about the first bird continuing to be a out bird after 10 seconds I will score that bird if he returns. In my opinion he is still part of the kit and the rules do not state otherwise.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
495 posts
Nov 17, 2009
6:40 AM
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Nick
"scoring shall continue if one bird leaves the kit ("out bird"). Scoring shall be suspended but timing shall continue if 2 or more birds are out"
According to this sentence Scoring is suspended once thier are 2 outbirds. It does not say that once those birds return to the kit, they are no longer out birds. IT says suspended, it does not say for how long, or what reguirments are needed to unsuspend scoring.
Nick I am not saying this is how it should be, just that the rules can be interpeted this way.
"
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Nov 17, 2009 6:43 AM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3813 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:43 AM
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Ty - Like I said before, you and I agree on more than you believe(LOL). Really the only disagreement we have is the color thing and I have gotten past that(LOL). I still don't like it, but I finally recognize that it is here to stay. Hell, I might cross some Pigmy Pouters with my hottest rollers and see what that would look like in a tumble.....interesting, huh?(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3814 posts
Nov 17, 2009
7:52 AM
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rt - often birds leave a kit temporarily for various reasons and then return. Scoring is stopped and restarted several times with many kits as the birds move in and out of the kit. No rule would have to be made because this is understood universelly.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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XtraDeepRoller
59 posts
Nov 17, 2009
9:01 AM
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Oh, I get it Nick, so that is "understood universally", but the first bird being down and done is not?
You are using the same arguement that Scott and I have been using. It has been "universally understood", until the posts in this thread, that the first bird down is DONE. I have never heard anyone interpret it any differently, or seen it judged any differently, this thread on RPDC is the only place I have either seen it brought up and argued for.
X
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3777 posts
Nov 17, 2009
12:03 PM
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"...this thread on RPDC is the only place I have either seen it brought up and argued for"
Takes "testicle" fortitude to think outside the box. LOL
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3815 posts
Nov 17, 2009
2:21 PM
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Good for RPDC.
X - Apparently from some of the responses not all look at a bird crashing and rejoining the kit "univesally".
An out bird is an outbird and outbirds do rejoin the kit and when they do they are a scoring part of the kit. As long as they are out, they are not scored. There is no other way to judge this. Any other way is just made up.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
496 posts
Nov 17, 2009
9:42 PM
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"rt - often birds leave a kit temporarily for various reasons and then return. Scoring is stopped and restarted several times with many kits as the birds move in and out of the kit. No rule would have to be made because this is understood universelly."
Nick
One thing I really like about the guys here in Utah. The very first club fly I went to, they handed me a score card and said this is how to judge. I scored the birds, asked questions, and learned by doing. What you have expressed as "understood universelly" is what I was taught. It is how I have learned to judge and many others also.
However, because it is "universally understood", doesn't always mean that is what the rule actually says. Put away your universal understanding, and read what is their, what is written, what is in Black and white, not what was implied, not what was meant, what the tradition is, or universally understood, etc, but what is written. After you do that, are the rules as clear as you would like them to be? And follow your preconceived ideas of what you thought they should say? Or are they just how you like them to be?
I do not think that we need to change wording of the rules, as much as define what a few things really mean. Examples:
Down Bird: a bird that has landed, once down is it always down, and can not return to the kit to be scored. Or is it an out bird and can return.
Out bird: A bird that is not flying with the kit, that if returns to the kit the bird can be scored. And does this include or does this not include birds that have been down. Or to follow the logic of a "down out bird" can not be scored, then an out bird for any other reason then the ones listed, cannot be scored either.
According to the rules, a bird that lands is an out bird that many will not let return to the kit to be scored. However, by rule the first down bird is an out bird, not a down bird. And by what you claim as “universally understood” could then return to the kit and be scored.
By rule there is not a single down bird, just an out bird, until two birds are down, then both are down birds.
I find it illogical to claim two different meanings to the term “out bird”, and two different judging actions of the same condition by rule. Hence my confusion.
Nick I hope you are having fun with this?
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3823 posts
Nov 18, 2009
2:08 AM
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RT - I am having fun with this and that was a good post. I enjoyed the read.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3779 posts
Nov 18, 2009
6:22 AM
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"By rule there is not a single down bird, just an out bird, until two birds are down, then both are down birds."
I count 3 birds with the above: 1 out bird and 2 down birds for a total of three? ;-)
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2619 posts
Nov 18, 2009
3:21 PM
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2216 posts
Nov 18, 2009
3:37 PM
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Williams,
Exactly what I was trying to say....the first bird is only talked about as an outbird..nowhere does it say down...and second....the first bird is only down if the second bird is down...anyway...Good post.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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