Windjammer Loft
1026 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:09 AM
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Last night I was watching a program from Great Britian that was dealing with the Kennel Club about breedings.
The topic of discussion was registering Mother/Son and Father/Daughter breedings and the problem of diminishing
"Genes". After following many individual dogs of these breedings "lots" of major faults could be detected. And certain genes were lost...to the point of "no" return.
It made me start thinking if we could be going in the same "direction". We are always talking about the lack of this or the loss of that.. And we do breed father/daughter and mother/son.. So,I pose this question to all of YOU. Are we creating our own problems by breeding in this way?? Or should we do and the Brit's are trying to do and "NOT" breed so close. But to preserve "genes" that make our birds great acrobats if the air?? What are your thoughts and opinions??
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 7:12 AM
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
626 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:40 AM
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Paul.... You take any new snow pic,s of your loft? JDA
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Windjammer Loft
1028 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:44 AM
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JDA.. We haven't gotten any of the white stuff here yet....just lots of strong cold winds and low temps down in the teens. But thanks for asking...lol
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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winwardrollers
349 posts
Dec 11, 2009
8:43 AM
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Good question posted.. Paul.
If you want to know the reality of our breeding in rollers, I would venture to bet that there is a handful of people out of thousands that breed true...inbreeding... now if they do inbreed it is only one generation..maybe two..then they are line breeding. The far majority are so willing to cross breed as fast as they can... that I don't see this to be much of a worry.
Look at the birds you have..Hardesty/Roe..Tony's Ruby's...
You have plenty of a gene pool to work with.
How close are you breeding you birds?
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 9:02 AM
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fhtfire
2286 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:20 AM
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Bwinward,
Just remember though....even line breeding ends up at the same destination...it just takes longer. If you do not introduce and outcross...and that can be as much as just 1/4 blood from a totally different family and injecting it into you stock...try and get at least one stockable bird from each mating with the 1/4 blood and its a whole new ball game but with the same players...
They are right...if you inbreed...and even line breed....in time you will lose traits..some hidden and some not...and you do hear of breeders saying...man my birds used to break better or be better parents....something will be lost..that is fact....there is nothing good about inbreeding tight for extended periods....I am not talking about one or two generation but extended inbreeding...
Paul asked ALL OF US>....in the long run are we doing more harm then good.....you know we have many generations before us in rollers.....so the walls could be closing in for some....I know they wont me.....because I am not afraid to inject a trial pair for new blood...even if it takes me 3 years to find the one bird to keep it fresh...that is fine....hell even 5 years....that is fine..because a family usually is no sinking in 5 years time..Good post......and I totally agree...but you all know how I feel already
Anyway..so far I have proved that you can still compete with wider gene pools and not breeding super tight....and every year it gets better and better...I really dont think there is a right or wrong...you just have to do what is working.....and follow the signs that are put in front of you...and catch when things are going in the wrong direction.
This is a good topic...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
2682 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:51 AM
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Paul, it will take another 5-7 years to know what if you are doing is right. Some families show through the test of time, others just fade into the sunset. Only time wil;l tell.
(Anyway..so far I have proved that you can still compete with wider gene pools and not breeding super tight.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 10:17 AM
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maxspin
374 posts
Dec 11, 2009
11:07 AM
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Paul,
If we are doing it right we ARE breeding characteristics' out of our birds. We are trying to breed out the tendency to fly high. We are breeding out the tendency to twizzle. We are trying to breed out the tendency to fly long periods of time between rolling.
Etc, ect.
Remember also that the Kennel Club is a show organization. We have already proven that we can breed the roll right out of our pigeons if we breed for the show pen.
Having bred performance dogs in the past I can tell you the AKC has bred the performance out of every dog that they recognize.
As far as our bird go Scott is a good example. He has bred the pretty right out of his birds. LOL
Keith
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toronto15
287 posts
Dec 11, 2009
11:19 AM
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Keith, I think your dead on with your post. I realize your joking about Scotts birds because they are the nicest Birminghams I,ve viewed on here. Pensom wrote they should look and handle like a minature racer,and they have the look, and by what I can see,they must handle well.Glen.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2201 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:02 PM
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Paul,
I put you in the same category as Clay Hoyle, and maybe Joe Bob, too as far as your success with outcrossing different families of rollers. For awhile I believed that maybe multiple outcrosses was a good thing, based on the successes that some of you guys are having with it. But then I have seen Clay and Joe Bob beginning to develope other problems in their stock lofts.....significant reduction in percentages of good ones produced.....complete diversity in type, with little consistency...Then I heard Joe Bob lament that he wished he had kept more of his birds straight without the outcrosses. That told me that he, too, realized that he had lost something in all the outcrossing. I'm sticking with the line breeding approach for now, but I don't think all the evidence is in. The jury is still out, in my opinion. We'll be keeping an eye on you guys! LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 12:03 PM
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fhtfire
2287 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:03 PM
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Of course you are breeding bad characteristics out of your birds....but you can also breed good characteristics out of your birds that have nothing to do with flying high etc...that stuff is easy to catch when it starts going wrong..because you can see it with your own eyes....but you cant see the good things that you may breed out.....like a strong immune system....mortality rates....fertility....that is the stuff that you can breed out and before you know it it is gone.
The lucky thing that we have is our birds breed fast and we can see generations fast and see the outcome...
But again..we must remember that we are talking CONTINUOUS inbreeding......remember it does not take much shake the genes up...a distant cousin can keep you going on breeding tight for years...anyway..the top breeders seem to be doing that on there own just by selecting the best.....and the fact that we can use many pairs...and you may just start hitting the wall with one particular breeding pair...again...every family is different and it may look tight on paper...but in reality.....we cant see how the genes lines up and what they got...and whats on paper may be a lot different genetically....
I am talking CONTINUOUS inbreeding....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
350 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:10 PM
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Paul
"....and every year it gets better and better..."
Paul,Paul it get better because you have tighten your gene pool down...don't tell me that your still crossing birds into your FlashOver family..haven't you developed them...the only reason not to develop the bird's as is with close breeding is because they are flash-in-the-pans.
WindJammer posed the question..."Are we creating our own problems by breeding in this way??" My answer is no.. because we are simply "preserving gene" by breeding close.
Paul I know of a guy that thinks like you do, to this day he still has not developed his own family of birds..always trying new family combinations to make the ultimate bird. It is fun for him, he enjoys the breeding aspect of the hobby.
Until we start focusing on a key bird or two and make the begainning of a family we are just kidding our self's with what we really have..it takes many years to prove them out and yes people will talk about the negative such as with the Britian Dog example. Each breed of dog is still best at what they do even with the negatives that come.
Strong immune systems, mortality rate, fertility you act as if just simply crossing is the answer..the fix all..I know that you don't true believe that...
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 12:21 PM
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fhtfire
2288 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:13 PM
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Cliff,
I dont bring in outcrosses..all the time....most of the stuff is line bred and pretzel bred for the last 5 years......I only work with two families....and I dont breed from very many pairs....so I am keeping it tight enough still.....I wont play with a totally different family if I need it...but I think the diferences between the Morts and the Rubys....genetically will keeping me going for quite some time...but the Rubys and Morts on the perch are not that much different looking....and the offspring are not that much different....there main difference overall is one is stronger then the other...Muscle mass not stiffness.....I dont think you can outcross all the time and be successfull...and my thing is inbreeding only...direct related birds..line breeding is so much better an then you pretzel...add uncles and cousins and you have just enough of something else to fend off the inbred depression
As far as %..nothing is really dropping off....My % are very high...and I am on my 5th year since I started my first cross.....and the birds are hand over fist better then 5 years ago....as far as them lining up with my management style..as far as quality of birds...a little bit better..but they were both high quality in the begining....I just found that management is alot easier year after year....and they character is much better...the birds act like they want to roll...anyway...
rock and ROLL
Paul
I just want everyone to know..I am not against inbreeding to lock a trait ....I just will not do it year after year and I will not do it if there is a trait that does not need locking...You have to keep it tight...but most have to look at what bird fixes what based on there breeding characteristics and throw the peds out the window...heritage of a bird plays in last in my stock loft....what the bird actually passes on is what I base my decisions on..and new breedings...just rolling the dice....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2202 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:32 PM
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Paul.
Thanks for clarifying.....I think anyone who is serious about competition, and is serious about their family of rollers, is not going to outcross repeatedly with every good bird that happens to become available. I think that WOULD be a problem. My impression is that most guys that outcross have several lines that they are working on. Some are straight up their main family...some are outcrossed with one bird, then line bred to the outcross.....some are linebred back to their original family. For example, I bet you have birds that are heavier on the Mort side and some that are heavier on the Ruby side. And some guys have several lines of these "projects" using outcrosses to other families. The problem is with record-keeping, flying the birds out, and objectively observing the birds and their qualities. It is a lengthy, complicated process, to say the least. And it's easy to get confused and lose track of birds, especially for the guys who try to keep their records in their heads! But it's pretty obvious that you are not going down that road.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 12:37 PM
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fhtfire
2289 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:40 PM
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Bwinward,
I dont cross in other families....and I dont try other families...the only thing in my loft is Ruby and Mort and flashover..not more no less....as far as the flashover family..what do you mean by crossing into the family......I go back to Grandparents...uncles...aunts...cousins...it just ends up the way it does based on my selections...I just dont breed father daughter, mother son, or full brother bull sister...but everything else is fair game...and I dont have alot of pairs....here is my stock loft....ok...cocks and hens listed and you will see what I have to work with....
most of the crosses go back to the original foundation...the pures are offspring to the originals...and the crosses get thrown back up to the pures...based on what the pures pass on ...or they get put to cousins or other crosses....based on what I they pass on....I dont look at peds until I am all done with my selections....and only split pairs if they are like I said..Mother son father daughter or full brothers sisters.....
I did have some extra breeders from Mort this year and a couple from Tony that I borrowed...just to fill in perch space...I was out of birds....but the Morts I borrowed stayed with Morts....and I Crossed one RUby cock and MOrt HEn from the ones I borrowed...but they all go back to MY foundations....and I was only doing that to see if I could get one to just keep on the side in case I ever get in a bind....as you can see that is all I breed out of...
my 03 Blue Bar cock is shooting blanks....so I am really pushing his son the Black 04 cock as his replacement and he is working out just fine..he is all over my crosses....some of the 1/2 are not f1...they have been brought back up and down and are still half on paper..although they are not f1...some of the pures are pure on paper...but if you go back..a ruby is on a branch.
rock and ROll
Paul
Cocks
05 Mealy Bald (Pure Ruby) Foundation
03 Blue Bar (Pure Mort) Foundation
06 Lavender 1/2 Ruby Mort
08 Red W/F Badge 3/4 Mort
06 Blue Bar 1/2 Mort 1/2 Ruby
00 Red Baldy Pure Mort (Original)
06 Red Grizzle Pure Mort
04 Black Pure Mort
05 Red Check Bald Pure Ruby (Full brother to Mealy Bald
04 Lavender Pure Ruby (Original)
Hens
03 Black Pure Mort (foundation)
04 Mealy Hen Pure Ruby (foundation)
03 Blue Bar Pure Mort (original)
08 Blue Bar 1/2 Mort/Ruby
05 Blue Check Pure Mort
05 Black Pure Mort
06 Blue Check Pure Ruby
07 Black W/F Badge 3/4 Ruby
07 Red Check 1/2 Ruby/Mort
08 Blue Check 3/4 Mort
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fhtfire
2290 posts
Dec 11, 2009
12:47 PM
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Cliff,
Everything I listed is from the original stock or what I have bred...everything else has been eliminated from about 04-08...I just kept dumping pairs that were not producing what I wanted...but they were still damn good birds....My 06 Lavender does have a cross from a lavender Hen I borrowed from Tony....and they produced the 07 black w/f Badge Hen....anyway..they are all related on paper....some just a leaf on the tree..and some are a branch....I do have a couple Ruby Cocks I got from Mookie...that were squeeks this year..but I am going to try them on a couple of my hens this year just for shits and giggles...I am not scared to inject offspring from those cocks in my stock...if they have the goods....because they Ruby tree is tight...as well as the Mort tree...so I am not really outcrossing...outcrossing is grabbing a totally different family......I dont know what to call if you go back to your same family...like if Scott borrowed and old cock from Kenny that goes back to his stuff...anway.. as you can tell....I only have 4-5 original birds from when I got serious in 04/05
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Pinwheel
64 posts
Dec 11, 2009
2:34 PM
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A few thoughts this post provoked...
For those that fly from multiple pair, can you name the relationship that all the birds that you are flying have to each other...or... can you name the relationship that one bird has to all other 19 birds, and go down the line with that same concept. (what does the spread look like and do you document that with every team you ever had, and see any trend?)
Does anyone just solely fly from one pair, and over time only pick the best ones to fly, and say after 5 years, you built up to 20 birds all from one pair(all possibly 1-5 years old). Or if you do have multiple parents, fly birds of the same feather together only? i doubt anyone does that, but it would be interesting to hear if they did.
I thought I had one more...
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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winwardrollers
351 posts
Dec 11, 2009
2:49 PM
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Paul
You have no shortage of gene's...lol
Now which birds, let's say two cock and two hens are your best from the list.
Tell me how they are related..stay simple.
This is over all best 2 cocks and best two hens. I don't want anymore info. than what I asked for.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 3:51 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1559 posts
Dec 11, 2009
3:40 PM
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Pinwheel, I'm in my forth year of line breeding from one cock and two hens. I have a very small setup by choice. My typical breeding season produces thirty to forty young birds but I keep my numbers around fifty birds total. Yes, I can look at a bird and tell you who it's parents are. I also feel that my stock is improving with each generation. Understand though I only keep the very best from those that are picked from the air. The fact that they are so simular makes managing them much easier as they respond as a kit, not as individuals.
Thom
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Pinwheel
68 posts
Dec 11, 2009
4:23 PM
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THom,
So the ones that you only keep are kept for just flying then? Or do you replace the cock and two hens or put their young back on them? Then as far as each generation improving: are you speaking about each set of offsrping from that pair( the one cock two hens), are better than the clutch before? Or do you mean you are breeding from the flyers back to them and their offspring improve? Which if your linebreeding I suppose the latter?
I was wondering if anyone just pumped 30 birds from one pair one year, kept 5 there were excellent quality. Then the following year pumped 30 birds from that same pair, and just kept adding to the kit, until they found a nice team that worked.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 4:30 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1560 posts
Dec 11, 2009
4:49 PM
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Pinwheel, I started the first year with one cock and two hens. I bred the first hen to the cock and fostered their eggs for three rounds. Then I bred the second hen for four rounds, fostering the first three and letting them sit the last round. The second year I used the original hens and the original cock and their progeny, the best of the young hens from the two back on their father and the best of the young cocks back to their mothers. Last year, I used the best young from those pairings in the same fashion but extended the second pairing to the best granddaughters and grandsons. From the progeny, I use only the best in the air and in the qualities I want enhanced in my birds.
I am at a point now were I can replace the original stock. I will continue to use the original birds as a producing pair but I will move down the tree one level pairing only the birds I have bred and flown out.
Thom
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Scott
2683 posts
Dec 11, 2009
5:23 PM
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At what point do these out crosses actualy become a family in the way they look, handle , consistancy of the style ect. What determines proven success ?
Wind, when line breeding/ inbreeding all has to be taken in including the physical aspects such as fertility, strength, feather , stanima, ect. As an example I have a sweet hen that has a slight weak left eye , she will never see stock.
I also have a 4 yr old hen in my A team that has web toe, she also has a daughter in the same team that is 3/4 off the old man. She was pulled from stock due to her web toe. Never will I breed birds that have ever had to be babied either to hold them up in the kit box. What I'm getting at is there is a whole lot of factors that have to be considered with a tightly bred family of birds. There simply is no other way for the long haul, it simply has to be brought in tight or it will be all over the board , but the correct selection has to be there or it is a moot point.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2291 posts
Dec 11, 2009
6:41 PM
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Wind,
I dont try different family combinations what is in my stock loft is it....nothing else is coming in..and what is working for stock....are birds connected to a select few...anyway...do you want best stock birds or best birds I have produced and are not in the stock loft....
rock and ROLL
Paul
I will just post my best birds to date from the flashover and you can see how it is working out.
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 6:42 PM
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winwardrollers
353 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:25 PM
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lol...Paul
Simple your best 2 cock and best 2 hens.
The rest are of no value for what we are doing..we will just say that your loft burnt down and these are what you have left over.
bwinward
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fhtfire
2292 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:27 PM
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Ok...my best spinners to date that made it to the stock loft and have produced in the stock loft...
Hens
Blue Bar 08...Father is Black 04 Mother is Black W/F 07.....Black 04's dad is Blue Bar 03 foundation cock and Black w/f 07 Mom is full sister to 04 cock so both sides go back to my Blue Bar 03 cock...Father to 07 is my mealy Bald foundation
Blue Check 08- Father is Lavender 06 and Black 03 Hen..basically..I bred back to the lavenders Grandmother...Blue Bar Cock is the Grandfather...
Cocks- Lavender 06..Father is Mealy Bald Mother is 05
Black......Blue Bar foundation is the Grandfather...
Cock 08 Red W/F badge Father- Red Mottle..is father Black 04 and Blue Check 05....
Mother...Mealy W/F..with Father being Mealy Bald and Black 05 Hen....Black 05 Hen and Black 04 Cock are full brother sister different years...so Blue Bar 03 Cock is on both sides and Mealy bald is in there too...
Then my 09's in my A-team that are on my list to stock are coming from my 06 lavender/08 Bluebar hen... Blue Bare 03 Cock is Grandpa on both sides..
Or my 04 Black COck and 08 Blue Check.....The o8 Blue Check's mom in the Grandmother to the Lavender so the offsring share the same Grandmother and Great grand mother on both sides...with the Blue Bar Cock and Mealy cock on the line on one side.
Just as an example....
rock and ROLL
Paul
I usually take the offspring of the above examples and mate to cousins or back to aunts and uncles or even grand parents.....the Black 03 and Blue Bar 03 share the same grand cock on each side but different Moms..
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fhtfire
2293 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:41 PM
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Brad,
If I get a hit from any of my other pairs...and it is stockable..I will not hesitate to stock it....close or not close.......I did lose some breeders last year to something that went through my loft...my 03 cock went fertile...My red Mottle croaked with a full crop of food and was fine the night before...his mate the mealy w/f hen...quit laying......so I had to circle around other birds..SUCKED....but I only breed from 10 pairs of my stuff....and every year that I prove out 2 new pairs...I dump one old pair.....this year I am dumping a pair of breeders......I alos have a cock and Hen out of my red baldy that are smoking this year....that I may try in the Stock loft.....
is that what you were looking for in the above post.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2294 posts
Dec 11, 2009
7:43 PM
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Brad..call me..its easier to talk on the phone then type all this....LOL...530-867-2288 or my home phone..530-662-7550 call me on the home line..me cell signal sucks here...
rock and ROLL
Paul
I am up till midnight Pacific time..
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 7:44 PM
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winwardrollers
354 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:26 PM
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Paul
Cock #1= Blue Bar 08 Flashover--1/8 Mort
Cock #2= Blue check 08 Flashover--1/4 Ruby's
Hen #1= ?
Hen #2= ?
This is simple..fill in the questions for me.
Remember the rest of the birds are gone you only have four birds left from the fire that burnt your loft to the ground. You also cannot add any new breeders to this list in the years to come...make sure you pick good.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 9:33 PM
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fhtfire
2296 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:34 PM
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FIrst off...I am a firefighter and I would put the fire out...LOL
Cock #1- Lavender 06 Flashover
Cock #2- Red Check W/F Badge 08 Flashover
Hen #1- Blue Bar 08 Flashover
Hen #2- Black W/F Badge 07 Flashover
Hen #3- Blue Check 08 Flashover
Ok....This is what I would take....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Oh by the way...being a firefighter...I saved three hens....
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fhtfire
2297 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:35 PM
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do you want to know the reason I picked these....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
355 posts
Dec 11, 2009
9:43 PM
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Yes..give me the reasons you pick these.
Now how long can you breed these five birds and worthy young and never breed yourself in to a corner?
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 10:05 PM
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fhtfire
2298 posts
Dec 11, 2009
10:00 PM
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Ok,
Obviously by Blue Bar 03 cock shoots blanks....I know I could say well..i want to keep my foundation because I can breed more Flashover etc....my whole goal from the very begining was to develop my own family and set my self apart from the Ruby and the Morts....I have found what I want in the above birds.....and so far the 08 have put it in the kit box....I have flown my birds long enough to know if they are going to fall apart....and the 8 09 in my A-team only 1 I feel will fall aprart..anyway.....I know that these birds have a little bit of all that is good in my loft.....I know that all that glitters is not gold....but these birds were better in the air then there relatives......they are young so they have years of breeding left.....they are filled with my foundation and they are far enough apart that I will have many years of breeding.....and they are truly mine......my family....if I wanted pure Rubys in the fire or Pure Morts...They are a phone call away...but with the birds listed above.....I have my base in the genes...they are far enough apart ...and They are my best....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2299 posts
Dec 11, 2009
10:02 PM
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Now the Blue Bar hen I listed...Scott C. Saw that bird fly and he said if I had a kit full of her it would be freak'n awesome.....Scott can tell you about that bird...she was Fast..tight and deep and active...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
356 posts
Dec 11, 2009
10:20 PM
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Paul
No other birds are a phone call away everyone else loft burnt down as well..lol
By the way great save on the extra hen..lol
Now how long can you breed these five birds and worthy young and never breed yourself in to a corner?
My answer is that very few in this hobby will finish this project out to see what they have, they will get side tracked in a year or two...when they have in their very hands decades of breeding.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 10:28 PM
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fhtfire
2300 posts
Dec 11, 2009
10:30 PM
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You dont know....nobody knows....signs and symptoms is all we react to...just like me being an EMT...I cant tell what is going on with somebody for sure...I just treat the signs and symptoms.....and it is different for every loft....I could breed 4 generations and breed myself into a corner....or I could breed 20 generations.....on paper you can assume you have plenty of time...and you can assume that it is to close....but you never really know....I dont know the REAL genetic profile....I only know the paper one....but I think I could go quite awhile with these birds because for one...I will not do inbreeding (father daughter etc etc)...I will pretzel breed but its hard with these..because they are close..but still not that close...but to be honest...I could not tell you....I just treat the signs and symptoms.....but the fact is...I will never just use a couple pairs.....because I could not fill my my perches fast enough.....and its not hard not hard to breed good kit birds...its hard to find good stock birds...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2302 posts
Dec 11, 2009
10:43 PM
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Oh...hey Brad...
My answer is that very few in this hobby will finish this project out to see what they have, they will get side tracked in a year or two...when they have in their very hands decades of breeding.
bwinward
I am one of the few....and I NEVER start something and not finish it.....and this is something that I really enjoy doing and totally understand....and ....you never know if you have decades of breeding or not......again....my thing is..most need to just kick back and watch our work grow...but keep and eye on the signs and symptoms of inbreeding depression and fix it and it may be just a matter of not pairing up certain pairs...but my point is ...MOST do it (treat the signs and symptoms)...but dont know they are doing it....
Trust me...I agree with inbreeding to a point....hell I line breed and keep it close.....I also believe that it is ok to do close inbreeding for a couple generations max..but dont continue....I would have done it too...but I was lucky and did not have to lock in something.....I like what I had...I just have to make the right picks...I am all about percentages now...but .....overall I agree...I just think most live and die by what they hear and assume something is gospel...and wont deviate off the path....that is leading to a dead end..or a cliff...but the true breeders adjust and overcome...and most argue the point of not adjusting and they dont even realize they are doing it.....hope that makes since....one thing you will find with me....I dont know much about nuclear science.....but when it comes to animals and breeding.....its not my first rodeo...and its something that I truly understand....and I know that you do too..
Oh..I knew where you were going...you cant outfox a fox..LOL
I will say...soon you will not see as many pairs that are not Flashover in my loft...time can only go by so fast..!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 10:45 PM
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Windjammer Loft
1029 posts
Dec 12, 2009
8:29 AM
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Iam surprized with the results... For the "good" of course. I want to thank each and everyone who posted on my thread. Thank you all...
But I think I need to express my major concern. With the line breeding Iam mostly concerned with the mother/son, father/daughter breedings. This is where my concerns are really focused. And not so much with any relatives down past that. My personel view is and has always been. "NOT" to breed that close. It's just been a practice of mine ever since I started breeding anything "live".. But I really appreaciate all your thoughts on this topic. Please add more of your concerns.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Pinwheel
72 posts
Dec 12, 2009
9:02 AM
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One could always have an experimental pair that they use specifically for linebreeding... train/fly like normal... see objectively how different the linbreds are to the not so close bred's...
Then you have something in hand that you can compare back to back, without relying on extraneous information which is hard to personally interpret. And see for yourself
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 9:11 AM
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Scott
2684 posts
Dec 12, 2009
9:51 AM
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You could go forever and ever on 5 out crossed pigeons , it would also take forever to bring it in tight where it needs to be as it is just too broad.
From those 5 I would be searching for the best 3 producers to hone in around.
One thing that hit me out of your selection Paul is that over half are 08 which means that you are just tickling the surface as they can't be prooven other than being a possibility of hope at this point.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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winwardrollers
357 posts
Dec 12, 2009
10:17 AM
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Windjammer
You stated.."With the line breeding Iam mostly concerned with the mother/son, father/daughter breedings."
This is inbreeding not linebreeding very few will inbreed for more than a generation or two.
Linebreeding is what most will do to create a family and have good success if they are patient and make good selections.
Crossbreeding is what most happen as soon as guys get into this hobby. The Novice wants to mix all the families he has acummulated.
Many of these families have been established and would be a good start for the beginner if they would take some time, fly, breed, and work with those that know the family best. Instead the novice's know's better and ditchs a good family to run to another and find's he is having problems with that family as well. You know the story.. that family didn't work out either. Is it the birds or the bonehead that is flying them that is in question.
Now what happens next...the guy finally decide he needs to pay attention and starts to put some time and starts to have success with his mongrel cesspool based pigeon. There was no need to crossbreed the three families together the roll gene was already in the established families. I don't have a problem with cross breeding if it is done right..very few do it right.
No, there is not a "gene shortage" in the established families we have in the roller hobby..we can breed these families tight and have great success.
Like I said very few will ever breed a family line to close they will get distracted a year or two down the road and abandon the ship. Then they will wish they would have focused in on a few key birds they had.
bwinward
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winwardrollers
358 posts
Dec 12, 2009
10:24 AM
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Scott
You stated.."One thing that hit me out of your selection Paul is that over half are 08 which means that you are just tickling the surface as they can't be prooven other than being a possibility of hope at this point."
Exactually what I thought...Scott
Did you notice how.. long it ..took Paul to decide which was his best.
bwinward
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1561 posts
Dec 12, 2009
11:45 AM
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Question, for anyone who can answer.
I mentioned that I was inbreeding/line breeding from one cock and two closely related but not exactly the same hens. One branch has proven out to produce better birds but the other is not without merit, just not as good. Now my question, if I continue to work both branches without crossing them until I feel they ( although they may never be equal ) are both producing birds worthy of breeding will they then provide out crosses for each other. Even though they have the common cock and some common ancestors in their history?
Thanks
Thom
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 11:47 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
1616 posts
Dec 12, 2009
11:57 AM
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Thom breeding too close genetically can have its drawbacks. This is why breeding best to best is generally a preferred method of breeding by many of us. The birds don't have to be from the same family but it's good that they have similar body types.
....moving on
Genes are important in order to produce good performing rollers. Some roller fanciers pick good performing rollers (that they have seen fly out of the air) to purchase. The bird is then put into the stock loft along with another bird (outcross) that was not flown. Many times there is confidence in the upcoming brood because the unflown bird comes off what many call screamin chit. The gene pool has been diluted in the form of experimentation.
Hmm... this at times can present another problem totally different from inbreeding. The proven performer and the untested bird might produce the goods (high quality stuff).... or they might produce low quality stuff. I for one have experienced this.
I would only stock a bird from a CHAMPION... or anything that comes close to a champion aerial performer. It should be pre-potent (able to genetically reproduce the same consistently). A champion is the best bird you have! It's a personal thing so keep it personal. It's no ones business what you do in your breeding pens with your birds (unless you make it their business).
NOTE: Many folks (NEWBIES) buy themselves into what started out as good birds. After they lock them up and attempt to breed & fly with lack of knowledge and poor loft management; they blame it on the birds, the breeder or something else.
My advice is to pick good spinning birds out of the air or get birds from a reputable breeder/flyer. Study and learn what it takes to develop your own family. Be consistent and preserve the best genetic qualities by only breeding "BEST to BEST". The gratification of breeding good birds that others want to see perform is what all of us are after.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 3:33 PM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1562 posts
Dec 12, 2009
12:12 PM
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Marcus, Thank you for the input. I think I have birds that are from a proven breeder and I will be happy if I can maintain their quality. I will be elated if I can improve on them. Each year I see improvement and I am satisfied with my program. I am not however a geneticist and was curious if two simular lines could provide an outcross if needed in the future. Once again, thanks!
Thom
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winwardrollers
359 posts
Dec 12, 2009
2:38 PM
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Oldfart
It sounds like you have some good things going. I really don't know what you have but I would guess that the second hen has some good qualities that you can use. When you have a son or daughter that is better than her you can start to breed away from her. Don't get rid of her yet you may want to come back to her. If you can see improvement your headed right even if it is one bird this year. I breed 8 to 12 birds out of a pair to see what I have each year. Just be patient a young bird will show that will be exactually what you want/need. It may take two or three years of breeding to find a good bird out of the pair...now you have 16 to 24 young from that same pair to choose from your odds are getting better.
I think you will have enough of an outcross with-in your family to go on for years. It's all about selection at this point your gene pool base seems to be good.
bwinward
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1563 posts
Dec 12, 2009
3:26 PM
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bwinward, I am reaping a lot of Tony's hard work. The Ruby's he sent were from some of his best. Not every bird in a family will have what it takes but after flying out the young. I choose one cock and hen pairing that stood out, as well as one young hen, I bred from another pair. I discarded all the rest except for the birds I kept to use as fosters. Now every bird is descended from those three and I have kept them pure and tightly bred. The original Ruby pair are producing better birds as they mature and the young bird pairings to the parents and siblings are working as well. They are improving overall but still need work as do I. I'm on a learning adventure along with my birds. Thanks for your answer. :)
Thom
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 3:57 PM
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fhtfire
2303 posts
Dec 12, 2009
6:03 PM
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First off Brad...It did not take me that long....I did not know I was not allowed to eat dinner first....if I was on a time limit...I would have answered right away.
My selections were based on your perameters....yes I know that the old dogs produce and they are a for sure hit...but I guarantee....that I could dump every breeder I got...and take my 7 09 out of my kit box right now and build er back up....why..because I know my birds and I know what I have to do. I keep saying it is not Brain surgery....and I am well aware Scott that they are potential breeders...but when I have 8 in the A-team out of those 08's and they are well 2 weeks from a year old......I can pretty much guarantee 7 of them will not fall apart...why...I know my birds and I know the ones that develop a certain way....the character...the whole ball of wax...the good ones talk to me through there whole development process....so..>I picked the 08 because they are loaded with the background...they were my best in the air.....they are young and have many years of breeding in front of them...and the fact..why would I want to take my steps backwards...my old breeders are my base and that is it...the new birds are my steps forward..and with the "POTENTIAL" that I see and KNOW....I picked those because that is my hard work not somebody elses and they are the birds that turn my crank...they are better then the parents...and I am sure from what I see in my kit boxes...they will be just fine....all they have to do is produce 1 stockable bird a year and the sky is the limit...if I lost everything but them....of course I feel they will produce better....SOme of my 07 and 08 that bred this year are back flying..they did not have it...I did not need to fly there young for 2 years..I just know...that they dont have it....so they are no longer breeders.
I will be totally honest...why do Roller fliers think that Rollers are so much more complicated than any other animal...the fact is they are not...Breeding rules are the same across the board....I dont care if you are breeding champion Field dogs, Show Pigeons, Game Roosters, Show dogs, Goats, Beef and the list goes on...Breeding principals are the same across the board....if anything..I have found pigeon breeding to be the easiest...why....because you can see the results fast......you have many pairs...and one will hit....Now Large animals....Takes YEARS to see if they have the goods.....at least 2-3 years...and if you make a mistake...one year can set you back 4 or 5 years. I mean no disrespect ...I am not saying it is easy...but it is not harder then any other animal....if you know your animals....and you pay attention and dont over analize...you will do fine with breeding.....
I am in agreement with Brad and Scott and all...i line breed myself...I just DON't Inbreed..to each his own..I never said it was wrong...I just dont do it and never will.....I also no longer outcross....and I have not for about 4 years....My breeders have been the same for 4 years except for what I have bred and added....and I dont think there is anything wrong with it....if you outcross you just see if it works.....if it does not...you move one....and select from the other 5 pairs that you did nto cross....if it does work...then you just inject it in.....and continue what you are doing.
to be continued...I have to eat...is that ok....or will my answer be mistaken for not knowing or having a problem picking the right answer...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 7:29 PM
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winwardrollers
360 posts
Dec 12, 2009
7:21 PM
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Paul
I'm not sure were answering the.. Original Post..I'm done.
See if Santa will get you a new key board..your going to need one if you keep this up.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 7:26 PM
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Pinwheel
74 posts
Dec 12, 2009
8:03 PM
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Also called a population bottleneck or genetic bottleneck...though we are purposely (maybe purposefully) limiting the genetic variability
with wild animals genetic variability is important especially with disease resistance, among others...
But with hobby birds I think there is more freedom to limit gene pool, or make the birds more homogenous...
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 8:05 PM
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fhtfire
2305 posts
Dec 12, 2009
8:19 PM
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Thom,
Brad is right...dont get rid of that bird yet...you could use that bird in the future as and INCROSS...an outcross Thom is when you take another strain or family and breed it into your tight knit family....outcrosses are only used when you are to far gone with inbred depression...when you cant recover or have bred youself into a corner....then you have to bring in totally new genes to shake it up....
An INCROSS...is when you breed from within your family but a relative....that is what most do...incrossing just pulls from a different branch within your tree.....it just rattles the genes a little bit...or like I always say adds a little more salt to the stew....and Outcross is basically pouring a box of salt in the stew....so it can go either way with an outcross...it can be way to salty or hell...it may taste just right..but it is a huge gamble...
I gambled with the Ruby and Morts....but it payed off..and I feel it worked because although Tony's birds show more red checks and Bars....on the perch the mort birds dont look that much different...the Rubys are a little smaller on the hen side....but I really think that they carried like characteristics that fit together like a puzzle.... and a couple pieces may have to be trimmed to fit...
Keep that hen....because you may need to incross...at some point just to add the salt....Brad is so right about that...
Although I have two different families....they are so much the same in so many ways....and it is confusing to me...because they breed like an incross....so when I go back to the Pure Morts or Rubys or jump back and fourth....they act like an incross....since they act like an incross...I had to change my thinking and use them like an incross...so I just followed the path given to me..or played the cards give to me....on paper it is a TOTAL outcross...but the traits and what I am getting and the consistancy.....they breed like an incross...so I am thinking that something in the two families genetically is very close....
So you can go back within your family...it is not as much as a gamble as using a total outcross....I have used this little lavender Hen from Tony and she fit into my program like a key.....so I am borrowing her again this year....becuase I like what I got from her...and the offspring have done good and passed it on....so I want her back....and I am not afraid to use her...
Thom the way I look at it...is this....with pigeons you get the results fast...I am acutally having aLOT of fun breeding the pigeons because I can be more aggressive and its easier to recover from mistakes...in a short amount of time....and with little dollar loss..
Now like I explained above...with other animals..you mess up..it take YEARS to recover and usually lots of money..because stud fee are NOT cheap...so...with these birds....I will say like Chuck Roe and Chan Grover said to me....by all means try it...if it does not work move on...or dont breed that pairing again...becuase most have 5 or 6 other pairs to cover up your mistake.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2306 posts
Dec 12, 2009
8:28 PM
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Pinwheel,
You are right about that....we can control some things within our lofts...medications etc...to help fight off "stuff"....the cheetah is a performance animal....so there is a huge threat...they lose the speed they are F+#$ed.....but you are right....but sometimes I wonder when you hear of fliers saying damn..my birds get sick all the time....or I have more losses in the nest then the past....is that from inbreeding...who knows....but I agree...I think with the diversity we have too helps...we breed from many pairs and again..we select the "Best" usually and Peds have little to do with selection within our lofts...so we may be picking the best genetically fit birds by luck...or maybe just one bird can open it up...
I know that Dr. Joan Dean Rowe had told me long ago..that it only takes a small amount of different genes to bring the fitness back to the genes....maybe 1/4 blood of something else way back when is enough to to do that in our birds....and maybe a bird on paper looks very tight when in reality...the genes that are in the bird keep moving forward within that bird (dominant) and are enough to keep us breeding tighter..and there is no way to tell..unless you DNA the motha .....that is my hypothisis anyway...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Oh..I also feel that sometimes an outcross does not blow it as wide open because our little birds are so genetically the same already from years of inbreeding an line breeding....who knows...but that is what makes this fun.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 8:31 PM
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