Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1564 posts
Dec 13, 2009
4:59 AM
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Paul, My terminology might be off in saying outcross, when I should say in-cross but my results are working and I think to a large degree because I started with an already well defined strain. I am however being very selective in my pairings,and using only my very best as breeding stock. This will be my forth generation and I only have four pair of breeders including the original Ruby's, everything else will be used as fosters and then continue to fly next year. I'm not saying I will never out-cross but my immediate future will be keeping the Ruby's pure. I see my program more like polishing a new car, then like trying to chop and channel an old cluncker.
Thanks Paul, be safe!
Thom
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2009 8:58 AM
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Windjammer Loft
1031 posts
Dec 13, 2009
8:20 AM
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winwardrollers.... my mistake, I meant in breeding. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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fhtfire
2315 posts
Dec 13, 2009
9:21 AM
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Thom,
You have the goods with the Ruby Rollers...and Tony has some tight stuff..but not to tight...He has done quite a bit of line breeding once he got them..I do see on his peds some inbreeding here and there...but he pretty much does it like most of the other fliers...there are tighter families...but Tony did not have to inbreed alot..because he has already locked in what he wanted back in the day....once you lock in...you should not have to do it again for quite awhile like most have said on this forum.
My Mort side...had been inbred ALOT...but then Mort brought it back out again with some line...but Mort started way fresh with different families at the begining and it appears he was forced to inbreed to lock in what he wanted...then he moved mor into line breeding....and again that is what most do.
You are correct...Tony's birds do have the goods..but like any family of birds...you just follow the yellow brick road....you really may never need to outcross as long as incrossing keeps working.....
Plus there are numerous reasons to outcross...you may see a super bird that is the best bird you have ever seen in the air and you may just want to try for shits and giggles and see if it helps your birds....you may use a dominant cock or hen that breeds depth....and you may want to try and get more depth in you birds....kind of like when Chuck Roe Borrowed my Red baldy...he breeds depth on just about everything.....it may be to pull you out of rough times....and taking an outcross is a sure fire way to make a strain yours....100% yours...and that is what I wanted...I only have like 4 breeders in my loft that I did not breed....and I only have 3 that I did not fly and breed...all the reast I bred and flew.
Just keep doing what you are doing....Thom..I played devils advocate a little on this site to get peole talking....I know that Brad knows what he is talking about and I wanted to get him writing....except my devils advocate made it appear that all I do is outcross....LOL..and I assure you that I dont...Talked with Scott last night on the phone...and he too thought this whole thread was good.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2316 posts
Dec 13, 2009
9:41 AM
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Last night I talked with Scott C on the phone. We talked about this whole thread. The amount of information is second to none. One of the things that he brought up totally made sense so I have to post it.
He stated that it is not about the family of birds..it is about the individual birds. Throw the family name out the window and peds out the window. Focus on the individual birds...and breed based on what those individual birds are bringing to the table. Dont do inbreeding just to do and to mate certain birds just becuase it sounds good or looks good on paper. Forget band numbers and who came from who...mate them on what they have and what they give....and dont chase birds from certain pairs just because of who the pairs are. For example....He said he has a pair...and for some reson he said he really wanted a cock from that pair...he had numerous hens from that pair that were smoking birds and could be good enough to make the stock loft....and there are some cocks or a cock..out of that pair that is not as good as the hens but for a time he could not get his mind of that cock even though it was inferior to the hens....but he wanted a cock so bad from that pair..his vision was being clouded because a cock is what he wanted. He said even he has to Check himself and say...stick to the game plan...pick the best...regardless of band numbers..line....or pair...if the hens are better then you use the hens...that made total sense to me....and I hope I explained it right....but the point he brought up was sooo good.
We also talked about inbreeding and line breeding and how this thread really lets the new and old get down to the nuts and bolt and using the correct terminology. For example...We talked of fliers that just inbreed to inbreed and they dont even know why they are doing it..or they are under the false assumption that every flier is inbreeding generation after generation...when the fact is...most line breed and inbreed when needed....and learning more about the proper terminology....like some say outcross...when it truly is not..it is incross or vise versa...
He also stated that just becuase you use a bird from the same family does not mean it will work in your family...meaning...and his example....his stuff goes back to Kenny Billings.....Scott stuff had Kenny all over it..but Scott has focused on the select birds....and his point is....even though his stuff goes back to Kenny.....does not mean he could borrow and old cock from Kenny and put it into his stuff and it will work....becuase althoug they are the same family....the birds may be different.....
To put it into perspective....my brother and I come from the same Mom and Dad...raised in the same house...with the same rules....although we are both organized....have the gift of gab...and so on....we are still different....he is 6' 5" and 230...I am 6' 188....He is Very smart (graduated UCD at 20years old)...I am normal....he has ok common sense but has to have everything layed out before him.....I have good common sense...and I can shoot from the hip and adapt and overcome....that is why I am a good firefighter....my brother would be a good chief...so although we are the same family....we are different birds that may share some of the same traits....so I guess that is why I outcrossed and married a Filipino...LOL...
In all seriousness he is right...I may get a bird from Tony and even though they may be the same on paper....as my birds....no guarantee that the bird will fit in..but I sure as hell know that Lavender Hen did...that is why I am going to use her again....but a cock I borrowed last year...to help me fill perch space becuase I was hurting....has not really showed me anything out of the Norm..and the blood is the same....go figure.
Anyway..I just had to pass on our conversation..and I hope Scott will ad to my post.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2009 9:46 AM
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