Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2216 posts
Dec 15, 2009
6:03 PM
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Joe
The only recourse is for a formal complaint be filed with the NBRC Sec Treasurer. Without physical contact, I doubt anything can be done. Maybe a case could be made using the "ungentlemanly conduct" clause, but then a lot of us might be in trouble on this site! LOL! And now Scott has gone down and dirty, by calling Russ a non- flying mongrel breeder. (Big Grin) As far as I know nothing has ever been done because a member accuses the judge of bias. I think Scott can handle himself in these verbal assults and give as good as he gets. Believe me. I know from experience! LOL! If Tony has no problems with the thread, then I doubt there is a problem. I think Scott has come out on pretty well, all things considered. It was a problem for Russ and I hope he now has a better perspective on the character of Scott. Scott did a fine job in my opinion and this whole matter had to be a misunderstanding and nothing more.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 6:04 PM
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JMUrbon
795 posts
Dec 15, 2009
6:10 PM
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not necessary Clif and You are right that Scott is a big boy and more than capable of dealing with this on his own. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 6:11 PM
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katyroller
685 posts
Dec 15, 2009
7:54 PM
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This whole thread is a perfect example of what can and usually does happen when folks don't show each other respect.
There are folks who like the color birds and feel disrespected because of some of the past comments folks have made about color birds and those that breed them.
There are comp fliers who feel like they don't get their due respect for the work they put into breeding quality stock and improving the breed.
There are backyard fliers who have been attacked because they choose to enjoy their birds in their backyard and not compete.
The dumbest part of the whole deal is that we should all be able to get along but alot folks insist on seeing things as "their way or the highway". To outsiders who don't understand pigeons, we already look strange because of our love for pigeons. To these folks we really look silly when we are arguing about "stupid" pigeons.
Just my Take,
Tracey
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Hector Coya
585 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:38 PM
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Shucks and i thought this thread was for Bashing Scott Campble,,,LOL
thats what it said in the forum,,LOL
JUST KIDDING
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Pinwheel
86 posts
Dec 15, 2009
8:43 PM
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I do like "to these folks we really look silly when we are arguing about stupid pigeons." I feel thats how the general population perceives pigeons as. Shoot, my own brother says the same thing when I start talking bout them. "stupid pigeons" If only people knew.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2009 8:47 PM
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Scott
2705 posts
Dec 15, 2009
9:58 PM
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Hey, when the weather is fair I'm out at sun-up on this hill in my SpongeBob boxers flying pigeons. It doesn't get any dumber than that for most that don't understand
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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diamondrollers
366 posts
Dec 16, 2009
1:08 AM
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Scott that foolish guy dont know what he is talking about. When i was there with you scribing you called what you saw and it was right on the money. you could have did one thing for me though giving billings a lower score then mine in the 11 bird fly lol.
sal
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Ty Coleman
830 posts
Dec 16, 2009
4:13 AM
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I'm all for bashing Scott, as long as it is legit. LOL
Hey Scott, Have you found any boiled peanuts yet in your area or do we need to send you a case ? Tiffany wanted to know if you cleared customs with the Vidalia onion relish ? LOL
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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George R.
223 posts
Dec 16, 2009
6:25 AM
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Ty
Being the seasoned Roller man that you are did you really think Scott was going to give you any points when you pulled those Birds out of the Cull box and put them in your Finals kit ?
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katyroller
686 posts
Dec 16, 2009
7:12 AM
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You want strange.. get a group of grown men standing around looking in the air. Throw in one or two who start jumping around whooping and hollering. One fly I went on, the guy lived on a corner lot and we had to stand in front of the guys house to watch the kit. There was a pretty busy road on the side of the house and everyone kept slowing down to see what we were looking at. I still can't believe we didn't cause an accident.
Tracey
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2218 posts
Dec 16, 2009
7:21 AM
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Scott,
You said, "Absolutly Pete, most so called blurs are off balance birds coupled with speed. When the balance is there you have perfect outlines of the wings." I think we need to emphasize this point. A blur roller may be nothing more than an off-balance bird that is rolling with great speed, but off its axis, awith half-strokes, so the wing position does not show up clearly. So we have to distinguish between our preferences.....wing position or speed? And how valuable is speed without good wing position....or good wing position without speed? And we see many combinations and grades of each in the performance of our birds.
Cliff
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JMUrbon
796 posts
Dec 16, 2009
7:38 AM
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The thing is Cliff, you can bave both wing position and speed. Its not a choice you have to make for one or the other. With both you get ball bearing smooth and impressively clean rolls. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2219 posts
Dec 16, 2009
8:09 AM
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Joe,
Oh, I agree. Our goal is to have both, obviously.....20-birds doing it perfectly. But we always hear so much emphasis on speed and fascination with blur rollers and I am not sure that it is always appropriate, especially if the blur is a bird that is roling off its axis. Most competition kits that I have seen have different birds with differing combinations of speed and wing position that may render some of them unscoreable in the eyes of some judges, and scoreable in the eyes of others. Therein lies the rub.
If we have the proper depth and proper speed, should a judge NOT count a bird because he does not find the wing position to his liking? The rules in the 20 or the 11 say nothing to indicate what wing positions should be good or bad.
Would it not be better to list and rank proper wing positions and if any should NOT be scored? Or is it best to leave well enough alone and allow the judge to judge..... ? Should we go against decades of traditional thinking that the Tight BALL roller, should be the absolute 2.0 quality, even if slow-mo video reveals that, indeed, wing posititon is a problem in the blur roller? If we ever get a " blur/ball" roller in slow-mo, it should be interesting.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 9:58 AM
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JMUrbon
798 posts
Dec 16, 2009
10:59 AM
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Cliff my answer to that is yes. The judge should score it and seperate it out with the multipliers.However as you know not all judges see it the same as I do. That is their rite as a judge as the rules state that it is the judges opinion of a scorable roll. I feel if you start taking away the liberties of a judge then we will find ourselfes with having dificulties finding judges. Judging is and always will be subject to criticism. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2009 11:03 AM
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Ty Coleman
831 posts
Dec 16, 2009
12:51 PM
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George that was the same thing i was telling those darn coopers when they were dining on my A kit.----------
Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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gotspin7
2609 posts
Dec 17, 2009
4:51 AM
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List, Scott is all right, he even got his feet wet just to judge my kit in the rain and wind. I had a great time when he visited and I feel he did a good job judging my kit. I just wish I would of waited 45 minutes to fly, LOL... What I liked about Scott, was that he first told you what he was looking for.
I know you do not need my help Scott, I just wanted to drop my two cents as well. Keep up the good work.
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Salvador Ortiz
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Ragin Rollers
74 posts
Dec 17, 2009
6:06 AM
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So hers how it goes now we are called mongrel breeders that fine it apperas the he has been around a long time so thats fine but never once did i say anything about his birds or what he breeds just what i seen and heard thats it for me...
I will compete in the future...
Russ,,,,,,,,,
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winwardrollers
363 posts
Dec 17, 2009
6:41 AM
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Russ
How old are you?
What family of rollers do you fly?
Where are you from?
Who on here knows Russ?
bwinward
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2220 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:37 AM
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Please note that NOT ALL flyers consider an axle wing roller a cull. Some consider that it is the bare minimum scoreable performance that CAN be scored. As I understand it, this disagreement is one of the reasons that any mention of wing positions in the 11 bird standards was deleted by the last committee that worked on the Fly Rules. We should base our scoring system on depth, velocity and kitting, but we do need to come together as a sport and agree on any flaws that could make a bird unscoreable, and include a description inthe Fly Rules.
The rules are very specific on what can lead a judge to DQ at kit. We need the same attention to detail, in describing what flaws can be judged severely enough for a bird NOT TO BE SCOREE. The rules are woefully lacking in that area.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 7:37 AM
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J_Star
2205 posts
Dec 17, 2009
11:39 AM
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Why would anybody wants to bother with X wingers when there are tons of good ones out there to be had. You might not get the best ever made, but you can develop them from a good sock of rollers.
Jay
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155
1166 posts
Dec 17, 2009
11:55 AM
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winwardrollers
I KNOW RUSS WHY??
JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3955 posts
Dec 17, 2009
12:22 PM
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I know two Russ'. One is smarter than the other(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Mongrel Lofts
627 posts
Dec 17, 2009
12:58 PM
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Cliff,
the rules used to state; this competition is for rollers and not tumblers. A judge should not score anything that does not reach his standard.) Not exactly but close. I'm at work. Has this rule been removed? KGB
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Scott
2707 posts
Dec 17, 2009
1:05 PM
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Cliff, liking or not liking has nothing to do with this. It is the difference between right and wrong... the day that judges are forced to judge such garbage is the day I'm done (and others)as far as flying and judging.
(should a judge NOT count a bird because he does not find the wing position to his liking? )
Anyone that doesn't consider such a axel winger a cull shouldn't be judging .... they have always been culls , and it is universal... to even state any different does great harm to the breed and badly mis-leads inexperianced flyers.
Who ever believes this needs to step it up, not try and find judges that score culls or force quality minded judges to step it down to a lower level.
(Please note that NOT ALL flyers consider an axle wing roller a cull. Some consider that it is the bare minimum scoreable performance that CAN be scored.)
It's very odd that we have those champianing the 11 bird fly as a quality fly are the same that don't want it judged by a quality standard.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 2:04 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2222 posts
Dec 17, 2009
5:37 PM
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KGB
As far as I know that statement is still part of the Fly Rules or the Fly Policy.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2223 posts
Dec 17, 2009
5:49 PM
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Scott
Don't you think we would be better off with Fly Rules or Fly Policy that stated it as such? If we had clear information that described and ranked wing positions from best to worst, rather than leaving it up to the judge's discretion, we would not be having these types of discusions after every fly, about the gray areas, and how this year's judge interpreted them....or where his standard was. Remeber last year when the discussion was whether or not a judge should continue scoring a kit that is split by a hawk attack. (And this issue is still not resolved...it's still up to the judge!) Maybe we need a list of the faults that would cause a bird (20 and 11) to NOT be scored, included in the rules.
I hope you don't think that I am recommending that axel wing performance be scored. That is definitely not the case......but what we have now is "different opinions"...different judging standards of what is or is not scoreable. Why not see if we can establish the standard as to scoreable wing position? Few things concerning Rollers are "universal", as you suggested, where "universally understood scoring standards" are concerned. If they were, we wouldn't be seeing regions complaining when judges don't score everything that flips and twizzles....we wouldn't see National Championship scores that vary from a couple hundred points to a couple thousand. These problems are the direct result of leaving things up to the judge's personal standards.
Don't get your shorts in a wad unless you got plenty of bleach, my friend! How many axle rollers have you, actually seen? NOT VERY MANY! And very few if any think they are best or good examples of Roller performance. But we might clear up possible confusion, if we would make a better Fly Policy or Fly Rules that included information about wing positions and faults.
Do we want opinions to be FLY RULES? We can keep things just like they are and keep having these same misunderstandings after each and every fly. Which do you prefer?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 5:55 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2224 posts
Dec 17, 2009
6:59 PM
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Scott,
You said," It's very odd that we have those championing the 11 bird fly as a quality fly are the same that don't want it judged by a quality standard."
While I have not seen that same correlation in this discussion, I do agree with your point that we need a quality standard. That's the whole point that I am trying to make. We need a defined quality standard that our flyers easily read and identify, breed toward, and select for in their comp teams....and one that every judge will be scoring kits based on it. Too many times, I have heard stories of judges who announce right before the kit is released, what the standard is that they will be judging the kit based upon. That's a tad late for the flyer to find out isn't it? He needs to know this when he is putting his pairs together and seleting birds for his team!
And that is why the quality standard must be written....so that judges are on the same page; upholding and supporting the NBRC FLY STANDARDS.... not his own personal standards (or lack of) based on his personal opinions. The idea of every judge usng his own personal standard served a purpose, in its time...when there were only a couple hundred flyers in the fly. But now it is a hinderance to getting us all on the same page with regard to performance. This is a new era in Roller Judging; one in which we all know and understand the rules and what is expected of our birds...not just an elite few roller men. For the betterment of the sport and for the breed, these changes need to be brought to the flyers.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 7:08 PM
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fhtfire
2333 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:05 PM
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X wing rollers and Axle rollers are culls plain and simple....that is why i have yet to produce an axle wing and X wings are few and far in between...reason why...the birds producing those are no longer with us...and if they do have that stye...well they too are no longer with us.
Jay is right...dont waste time on problem bird or birds with issues....there are plenty others to fill the perch.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2225 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:19 PM
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Paul,
No doubt. And let's face it, just how many axel-wing rollers do we see? I have seen very few in my own kits or in anyone else's. I see far more low X performers. We are arguing a moot point about axel performers. The point is that we need a written "QUALITY STANDARD". And if we want the 11-bird standard to be higher, then it should be defined as such in the Fly Rules, not just talked about on some internet roller forum. Judge's opinions are varied; as are their personal standards. But a written standard would be helpful in leveling the playing field for everyone.
NO ONE is trying to cram anything down anybody's throat. We have a minimum depth standard, we have a velocity standard...NOW we need a written QUALITY STANDARD. The Quality standard, needs to include a brief description of the basic wing positions. Those positions need rated from highest quality to least quality, to unscoreable faults listed that are serious enough for the judge NOT to score any bird showing one or more of those faults.
Let's see if we can raise the bar! How can letting each flyer know the standards by which the kits will be judged, be anything but good for the flyers?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2009 7:22 PM
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fhtfire
2334 posts
Dec 17, 2009
7:37 PM
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Cliff,
I am going to have to agree with you on the rules...I have been in enough competitions and sports to know that if rules are explained and defined...then they are easier to follow and you dont have these issues. Our rules as written now are very Gray and rules should not be gray...and we have all these different Scores from 50-3000 points because we allow the judges discretion and anytime you have discretion you will be all over the board...because everyone is so different in thinking that they all believe there discretion is the correct judgement....That is why you pick up any rule book from a governing body that has been around and there will be definitions...photos of things that are allowed and photos of things that are not...there are examples...etc etc. To be honest....The fly rules are the most open ended gray area rules I have ever read......I take that back...I had some kick ball rules in second grade that were more detailed and defined....
I dont know why some dont want the rules cleaned up and defined...if they are defined..then I am sure we will see kit scores down where they are supposed to be.
The key is as long as the rules dont lower the standard when they are defined.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2227 posts
Dec 18, 2009
3:36 PM
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Paul
You and I learned the rules by trial and error with each kit we have flown in competition. Every flyer's experience is different, so getting a good working definition about what Quality Standard is good, better, and best is difficult. With each judge that we meet and watch score our birds, we "learn" a little more. RIGHT OR WRONG, this info is added to our understanding.
WE need to educate the flyers on what the judge is judging, what is a high quality roller, a low quality roller, a scoreable roller, a non scoreable roller, what is a fault, what is the highest quality roller and what is the lowest quality roller that is still score-able.
I am not interested in pushing my opinions on anyone, I am interested in getting a better written Quality Standard that we all can understand and support. To do that, the NBRC EC must get that job done, after that the flyers and judges alike, will vote to accept or reject what the EC submits to the flyers.
The judge's job is to count/estimate the number birds that meet the NBRC fly "STANDARDS," not just birds that meet his personal standard. It is the judges job to NOT score any birds that exibit flaws that are listed in the NBRC quality standards. The judge will still have a job to do but he will be held to a written standard instead of his personal standard.
The integrity clause was written about 20 years ago, before the NBRC even had a NCF. We have gone through many changes in that period. I think, it is time to adjust the integrity clause to read that the judge shall not judge anything that does not meet the NBRC's Quality Standard. The judge is there to enforce and follow the club's policy. I know of no organization that follows the judge's personal standard. These standards must be clearly defined and followed by all members to us to more forward. for the betterment of the Roller breed, and for the betterment of the NBRC and it's members.
You said, "The key is as long as the rules dont lower the standard when they are defined," and I couldn't agree more. The problem is that we have guys like Scott and Kenny who are so afraid that the written standard that might be adopted by the NBRC or the World Cup might be something less than their own personal standard, that they figure that they must keep the integrity clause around so that they always have the right to impose their own personal standard on other flyers, or criticize those who do not agree. Personally, I believe that we have enough good flyers that are committed to quality performance, that they would set the bar high enough to make everyone happy.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 3:46 PM
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fhtfire
2340 posts
Dec 18, 2009
5:00 PM
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Cliff I feel you! in a good way of course..dont let the earings fool you!! LOL!...I think there are enough sound people on the EC to set the standard....or even if it is not the EC...we can appoint a committee made up of the EC and maybe some select judges that are on each end of the spectrum. Then meet in the middle. I myself DO NOT want the quality standard to go down...I just want some stuff defined....and that is it...I dont think it will be to hard to do. You will have some areas that what the judge sees is well what the judge sees...I have yet to see a sport that judges on quality have just one judge...most sports that are performance based alone will have on ref or judge....take gymnastics, Diving, Snow boarding, frestyle skiing...etc...you usually have a panel because not all judges see the same...but a panel will equal out...in gymnastics or figure skating or what have you..when you do a move...lets say a spin..you have to be tight..hands and arms are in certain locations at certain times...the move has to be flawless..entry and exit has to be at certain points...well some of these moves happen SO FAST just like our rollers..that one judge will see what another judge does not..they score...what they see and then the scores are averaged...sometimes to the hundreth of a point...just an example...but I myself do not want to see panel judging just because of the logistics of flys...but if we define some things it will make it a whole lot easier....and the quality will not go down..I hope
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2228 posts
Dec 18, 2009
7:27 PM
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Paul
I look forward to starting the process of change. Change is inevitable and change is hard. If we get the chance to discuss what is needed for the sake of the future of NBRC judging, it will take a great deal of effort by each RD and the rest of the committee. I doubt everyone will get 100% of what they want but it is time to try. If we can get a majority consensus on several issues, we can move forward.
Best wishes for the Holidays.
Cliff
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Square
766 posts
Dec 21, 2009
12:40 PM
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It's always fusterating to here someone complain that had an actual oppurtunity to compete.. Not to mention having a judge take the time to come to there house. Not to say that either of thease thing means you should get "Boned" But common!!! Ive looked at the scores and could only wish I had the oppurtunity to have a masterflyer evaluate/judge my pigeons, or anyone for that matter. Hay Regan did you even take advantage of the time he spent there??? Meaning did you ask him what was actually wrong? Or maby some advice on how to make you rollers better?? Or clarification on the standard? This is one of the things that would have made your experence alot better in my opion, not to mention you had the perfect playing field to get the info/pick his brain. Understand I don't know Scott, and probally have only seen him 1 time,,, However I do respect the fact that he stepped up and took the time outta his scedual what ever that was, to judge your birds. You could learn from this be it what you wanna hear or not still a lesson. Ive learned from this tread,, as I didnt even get the oppurtunity to showcase my "Color Bird's" in this years comp LOL. I will tell you this from my short experience in comp,, if your gonna do this thing #1 pack a lunch,#2 have some really thick skin, #3TAKE THE HIT!!!,, Just because you got your helmet knocked off dosent mean you need to get all pissed off just tighten your chinstrap nexttime, dust yourself off and ......"DO IT MOVIN".. good luck to you Truly!!!! Hope to see you next year...1
Booker,,, aka Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Velo99
2250 posts
Dec 21, 2009
5:23 PM
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There it is!
Nice one Booker
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3962 posts
Dec 21, 2009
6:26 PM
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Following Scott Campbell around under four kits of birds in Region 5 was worth every minute of it. I honestly did not see anything that I would complain about. There are some points we would have differed on, but nothing big. If you follow close within hearing distance he will tell you what he is seeing.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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gotspin7
2612 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:59 AM
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It's always fusterating to here someone complain that had an actual oppurtunity to compete.. Not to mention having a judge take the time to come to there house. Not to say that either of thease thing means you should get "Boned" But common!!! Ive looked at the scores and could only wish I had the oppurtunity to have a masterflyer evaluate/judge my pigeons, or anyone for that matter. Hay Regan did you even take advantage of the time he spent there??? Meaning did you ask him what was actually wrong? Or maby some advice on how to make you rollers better?? Or clarification on the standard? This is one of the things that would have made your experence alot better in my opion, not to mention you had the perfect playing field to get the info/pick his brain. Understand I don't know Scott, and probally have only seen him 1 time,,, However I do respect the fact that he stepped up and took the time outta his scedual what ever that was, to judge your birds. You could learn from this be it what you wanna hear or not still a lesson. Ive learned from this tread,, as I didnt even get the oppurtunity to showcase my "Color Bird's" in this years comp LOL. I will tell you this from my short experience in comp,, if your gonna do this thing #1 pack a lunch,#2 have some really thick skin, #3TAKE THE HIT!!!,, Just because you got your helmet knocked off dosent mean you need to get all pissed off just tighten your chinstrap nexttime, dust yourself off and ......"DO IT MOVIN".. good luck to you Truly!!!! Hope to see you next year...1
Booker,,, aka Square.
I agree, Booker.
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Salvador Ortiz
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Ragin Rollers
75 posts
Dec 22, 2009
10:13 AM
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You guys are right to a point, i have seen some garabage and then i have seen some smoking birds. and i thought that i would ask Tony to take this thread down but it really does appear that the people here do think that at some point they have been misjudge do to colored rollers. I will repeat that its not all about just Scott, but the overall remarks about the colored rollers, and having some one that really dont like them, to judge this sport( especically when they admit THAT THEY DONT LIKE THEM)Scott just happened to be the one that gets bashed.
Ragin Rollers....
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Scott
2716 posts
Dec 22, 2009
10:34 AM
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Dude, personaly I think that they are the scourge of the pigeon world.. and most won't allow them onto the property...that will never change.. what is your point ?
I suggest that you put them up and let the birds do the talking .
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2009 10:54 AM
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Ragin Rollers
76 posts
Dec 22, 2009
11:02 AM
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10-4 good buddy?????????????
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michael salus
89 posts
Dec 22, 2009
11:44 AM
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Ragin, You have a problem. If you put a kit of "colored rollers" that were kitting, rolling in proper style, ( H ) and going 20 to 30 feet, there is no doubt in my mind ,Scott would tell you what a nice kit that was. He might vomit while telling you this, but that's ok....lol. From what I have heard and from what he says, he judges birds, not color or families and that's good enough for me. Maybe the problem is your birds and you should work on that.
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MJ
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cv rollers
516 posts
Dec 22, 2009
1:55 PM
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OK i read all the post ,what the hell is considered a colored bird,what colors ?????
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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Square
767 posts
Dec 22, 2009
2:11 PM
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People feel that they have been misjudged based on color???,,,Man people feel they get misjudged reguardless of color. It's kinda like that in reallife if you think about it. Once you reconize it then you can do somthin bout it...This is my opion only as I want to make that clear. To me it sounds like you packed some stuff with you in reguards to the whole color thing... Meaning that if you herd somthing,, thats one thing but if the Judge told you to your face your birds were substandard based on color that's diffrent. And its my understanding the/your outcome was based on the roll and overall performance on your kit "That Day"... Color has nothing to do with it as anyone will tell you that has really watched diffrent kits fly. It's truly about the roll, not colour, pedegree band, oneleg,,, bigbeak, oddeye, ond so on... I will assure you this,,, Somewhere down the line "Scott" had his eye busted by a colour bird....Like I stated before I dont know Scott personally,,, But lookin at the stats, dstance coverd and kit's evaluated by his eye's, there is a colour bird that impressed him or should I say held up to the standard somewhere...There is a moral obligation in this sport not to mention the Judging aspect,,,,Here is the deal Just because you dont like somthing dosent make you unfair.....I deal with people and situations on a regular I dont like,,,However we have a common goal... Its about rolling birds.... POINT BLANK... Just figure it out... But dont blame the whole "GIG" on color or what you herd,,, oyea and dont forget people like diffrent things as well as colour... LOL rember the documentry "Brow Eyes Blue Eyes" a experment conducted by a 3rd grade teacher in the 60's,,,, Great One!!! The human being is complex.... Good luck....1
Square
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Scott
2719 posts
Dec 22, 2009
2:14 PM
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Rick (cv) It evolves around Birminghams that have been crossed on other breeds for color.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Phantom1
244 posts
Dec 22, 2009
3:10 PM
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I've suggested the follwing in the past as a potential solution to any bias. Maybe since it seems to be an issue (maybe not a significant one), a few could be considered.
1) Don't boast about your birds of rare color and shove them down someone else's throat.
2) Don't brag about how your's can beat a kit of standard colored birds. You're only opening the door to put you in your place.
3) When a judge comes to your place on comp day, DO NOT show them your birds before hand. Put a blinder on the guy and take it off as a sign of "Time In". If they want to handle birds after they trap, that's the time you can analyze colors and type.
# 3 is probably the only thing we have control over in today's world, but they're all worth trying to avoid slandering a judge. I agree, good earned money is paid to participate and you should expect honest, unbiased judging. One should also agree that judging a roller in the air is a subjective thing that is only asked of people competent enough to complete the task. Remember, these are people that have made sacrifices in their own lives to drive around 3000 miles in 5 days to help support you. Maybe the bias lies on the side of the flyer with birds of color?
Devil's Advocate,
E
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cv rollers
517 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:16 PM
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did not get the full answer,ok scott i understand white bars and stuff like that that u would find in other breeds,is yellow and white also included ??what is the standard color for a roller..your opinion!!!!! your no rookie so what u say has merit !!!!!!
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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cv rollers
518 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:19 PM
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Mottles,grizzles,where do they stand ???
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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Scott
2721 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:24 PM
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Rick...all are part of the breed .
(Mottles,grizzles,where do they stand ???)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2009 4:25 PM
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Phantom1
245 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:25 PM
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Rick,
I'll try to save you some time here and a lot of arguments. Generally speaking, any kit of birds that aren't bred for PERFORMANCE only will be considered bred for the alternative...COLOR.
Now, add in the obvious colors and patterns you don't see in 90% of other peoples' lofts. Opal, Indigo, Reduced, Faded, Pencil, etc...and that's the answer in a nutshell.
Hope this helps,
E
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cv rollers
520 posts
Dec 22, 2009
4:36 PM
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Scott,phantom,thanks guys i get it now !!!!!this is great if u dont understand or get it u just ask and u get the answer ,thanks again guys
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Rick Flores
coachellavalleyrollers.net
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