Bill W
3 posts
Dec 23, 2009
5:34 AM
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I'm Sorry some of you feel you have been wronged in the judging. This I can tell you, if you feel Scott was biased against one type or color of birds, you are right! If the kit did not roll or perform to the standard he was biased towards it. He look for quality. I was a little aprehensive to meet Scott for the first time because of a number of post I have read. I was wrong, Yes he is opioniated, but are not we all in some way. It was a pleasure to be with him for two days and scribe for him. He talks the whole time and tells you what he is seeing. I learned much more then I thought I would from him. He took alot of time as did Guil Rand to help this new guy get off to the best start I could. He would be welcome under my birds anytime. Scott you wont see much, but it would be a pleasure to be in your company.
Bill Whitby Ogden Ut
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2236 posts
Dec 23, 2009
6:11 AM
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cv
Scroll back to the top of this page, Click on Articles, then scroll down, to an Article I wrote for the NBRC Bulletin titled "James Turner: The Man Who Put Color Into The Spin."
Scott is correct that there is some who disapprove of rollers that were produced using color/pattern factors from other breeds of pigeons. There is no secret that many of the factors/patterns were introduced from other breeds of pigeons.
Read the article and I will be happy to answer any other questions you may have.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2237 posts
Dec 23, 2009
7:34 AM
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Mr. Devil's Advocate
Perhaps there is bias on BOTH SIDES.....Those that don't like birds with rare colors because they carry a gene for color/pattern from another breed of pigeon.....And those that do not believe that pedigrees are important and choose to put up with a few colors, not identified in the original imports, because the performance is what they are looking for.
Cliff
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Scott
2722 posts
Dec 23, 2009
8:22 AM
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Cliff, what do each of these have to do with each other and price of coffee in China ?
These are two completly different issues tossed out there only to confuse the new guys...you keep pedigree's (breeding records) on you color birds also.
(Perhaps there is bias on BOTH SIDES.....Those that don't like birds with rare colors because they carry a gene for color/pattern from another breed of pigeon.....And those that do not believe that pedigrees are important and choose to put up with a few colors, not identified in the original imports, because the performance is what they are looking for.
Cliff )
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2349 posts
Dec 23, 2009
8:48 AM
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It is this simple guys...ANYTIME you take an established breed and breed it to different established breed...you get a mongrel..mutt...whatever you want to call it...it the livestock world...small animal world...bird world...it does not matter....it is now worthless in the eyes of breeders of pure blood. Especially if you are mixing to breeds just to see what you get...if it is a color...different ears..etc etc.
In every animal relm ...there is the minority that thinks it is ok to mess up an established breed....the second you cross in unpure blood...you can no longer call that animal part of either breed...the fact of the matter is....most are puzzled on why some feel that it is ok to mess with an established breed of performance or show....most breeders focus on the primary trait or traits of an animal of pure blood...but if you focus on secondary traits..many feel there is no reason for it....like color...why focus on color instead of performance.
I have been in the livestock world for many years...in the show ring..and I will tell you this...it is no different....you get a handfull of breeders that think they want to make there mark in the breeding world and cross different breeds for color etc.....in reality they are damaging the breed...because they are now letting mutts into the main stream.......to potentially mess up other pure animals withing the breed...so there is no difference...it is frowned upon in most animal realms.
I think it is fine and dandy as long as the crosses are no longer called Birmingham Rollers.....until at leas 7 generations of pure blood....I think 5-7 is the standard for most organizations...but that means PURE and it has to be trackable....the problem is...as long as you do it in your own back yard and not let the birds out of your loft..then it is AOK....and if they do leave your loft...they are no longer named of either breed used in the cross and should not be named as such....regardless of the performance of the bird....most were mad because some were passing these birds off as Birminghams...and let the birds into the main stream....and setting up the potential to ruin others pure blood.
Erik summed it up the best..or I mean Phantom...any color you dont see in 90% of the lofts....is a rare color or cross.....and the minority is doing it..and some dont even know they have the damaged blood...but as long as the colored breeders are honest about there birds..then no harm no foul.
I was told long ago...it is very easy to mess up a breed it is very hard to maintain a breed.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2238 posts
Dec 23, 2009
9:59 AM
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Guys
It's simple. Do what you want to. If the idea that the color on a feather bothers you, don't get um. If it doesn't bother you, and you value performance over anything else, then try some 99.9% pure rollers. Colors don't spin, nor do pedigrees. Go see what the winners have in your area and choose them from the air for the way they spin. That's what I did. The birds that came from Turner already meet the 7 generation "standard" before they left his property, and now there are another 3-4 generation added.
I don't breed other breeds for colors, nor does any other competition roller flyer I know of. There are good 100% pure Birmingham Rollers out there as well as good 99.9% pure Birmingham Rollers out there. Take your pick and see how things work out for you.
Scott you have a know bias against all color birds regardless if you can identify them or not, correct? You could care less how they perform? Right? That's fine, you are more than welcome to your opinion. I just don't have the bias you do. This is just not a problem for many guys. But those who feel as you do, it is a big deal.
I accept all NBRC members as well as the birds they choose to fly on a universal basis. We all like to fly rollers, be they pure, almost pure and every color pattern out there....... that performs to standard.
Just as many feather merchants sell poor quality 100% pure Birmingham Rollers based on pedigree as sell poor quality color birds. And then any problems with either may not even be the birds fault. It could be the handling is wrong or you just picked the wrong birds from the best breeder you know of. The pitfalls are many.
You pay the feed bill, find what birds work best for you. I don't care what pedigree they are, what color they, as long as you find the performance to your liking, I'm OK with it.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 10:00 AM
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Velo99
2252 posts
Dec 23, 2009
11:52 AM
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Geezly crow!
How`d we get back to this?
"V99 walks away muttering under his breath"
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Phantom1
246 posts
Dec 23, 2009
12:41 PM
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Where ever the opinions or biases are, I do believe that an individual deserves the right to a fair judgement on competition day. I also believe that an individual reserves the right not to have to fall head over heals for something they detest and put up false faces.
If this is such a concern, then the NBRC and WC will have to start taking such factors into consideration. I mean the alternative is less people engaging into competitions due to a feeling of not being judged fairly. Things seem to be leveling out in terms of the spike in people's interest of colored rollers. New interest in competition appears to be leveling out as well. I believe there was a direct coorelation in the number of new flyers and interest in colored rollers over the past 5 years. So hopefully this nonsense will just fall by the wayside and it won't be an issue in the future.
E
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2239 posts
Dec 23, 2009
1:52 PM
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Eric,
I don't really believe that there are many guys in competition that believe that they are not being judged fairly based on the color of their birds. In fact in my four years as National Fly Director, I have NEVER heard this complaint from anyone! I have heard a lot of other concerns, but not this one. This was one guy's concern, and I don't think he even was in the competition!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 1:54 PM
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pat66
447 posts
Dec 23, 2009
4:55 PM
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Scott may be harsh but he is a master breeder, that is why he is judging, listen-learn and fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!he tells it like it is!!!!!!
Pat
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steve49
364 posts
Dec 23, 2009
6:21 PM
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so, if i recently got birds, what colors should i consider to have non roller blood in them? i got all my birds from one breeder, and he breeds for performance only, which is why i bought birds from him. however, after hearing about this color thing, i'm just wondering if there are certain colors that might have gotten an infusion of impure/non roller blood to show that particular color.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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katyroller
692 posts
Dec 23, 2009
6:48 PM
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Steve,
You started out right by getting your family from a performance breeder. Don't worry about the color issue. Fly the birds hard and if they perform to the standard, the color doesn't matter. One thing you learn real quick about this hobby is that everyone has an opinion and that some would be better off not voicing their opinion.
Tracey
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Spin City USA
271 posts
Dec 23, 2009
8:09 PM
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I like what Phantom1 in post #244, especially #3) When a judge comes to your place on comp day, DO NOT show them your birds before hand. Put a blinder on the guy and take it off as a sign of "Time In". If they want to handle birds after they trap, that's the time you can analyze colors and type. It is very hard to see white bars, bull eyes and muffs at 300 ft. If you have those kind of birds and they perform to the standard or better let them talk for themselves.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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