lightin' loft
12 posts
Dec 22, 2009
11:29 AM
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DOES ANYONE FLY PLONAS. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THEM -LIGHTNIN
Last Edited by on Jan 04, 2010 9:24 AM
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Scott
2718 posts
Dec 22, 2009
11:32 AM
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Plona has beed dead for a long time... those that have desendants of his birds range from pure garbage to exceptionial depending on the family....in other words this question is way too broad.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2009 12:31 PM
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155
1167 posts
Dec 22, 2009
12:25 PM
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lightin' loft
there a guy by the name of Jim Lippincott in up north williams arizona that fly some plona's and other pensom birds...
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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JMUrbon
803 posts
Dec 22, 2009
1:35 PM
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my birds are Plona based but like Scott stated. I have been breeding this family for 18 years. Plona is no were near these birds today. The question is like asking whom is breeding Pensoms birds. The answer is nobody. The birds ancestors may go back to Plona or Pensom but they are not the ones that have kept improving or in some cases damaging quality of them. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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PAUL R.
132 posts
Dec 22, 2009
2:00 PM
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With that many years of breeding, one would hope to call them your own ! ( Campbell's Line, Joe Urbon's Line ) etc.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3963 posts
Dec 22, 2009
2:18 PM
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Smith; Plona; Pensom. Most of us are flying something from these guys in one form or another. Everything seems to have gone through one or the other in the U.S.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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pacos bill
107 posts
Dec 22, 2009
3:17 PM
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Well said Nick, this may be one of the most accurate statements posted in recent History.
Pacos Bill
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jerrylynn
58 posts
Dec 22, 2009
5:16 PM
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155 I knew Jim Lippincott back in the early 70's he had the Plonas and Pensom birds then. I think that his Plonas came from Dick Stephens but I may be wrong on that one. He had and I am sure that he has kept it pure some really good stuff.
Jerry
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jerrylynn
59 posts
Dec 22, 2009
5:18 PM
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155 By the way do you have an email address for Jim Lippincott?
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richard.r
168 posts
Dec 22, 2009
9:06 PM
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155
1168 posts
Dec 23, 2009
5:27 PM
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jerrylynn
I HAD HIS NUM BUT I LOST IT HIS A VERY NICE GUY..
HEY richard.r
DO YOU FLY ANY KITS OF THEM NICE LOOKING Plonas BIRDS I WILL LIKE TO CHECK THEM OUT IN THE SKY IF SO HIT ME UP AT josejimenez155@msn.com I WILL BE OUT AT MANNY MORENO HOUSE IN PHELAN CA. ON NEW YEAR WEEK END...
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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winwardrollers
371 posts
Dec 23, 2009
9:49 PM
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I find it interesting that most of the time went someone post a picture of a Plona Based pigeon it is a grizzle. Grizzle... where does so much grizzle come from? I did a little research and found that my line goes back to Lavanders, all kinds of checks, bars, a few badge & white flights....this grizzle side of the Plona's I have not seen and don't know much about.
There is so many generations between now and then that I am not sure how accurate alot of this is ...most I guess is just hear say.
Bwinward
Lightin loft what make you interested in searching out the Plona's
Who are you and were are you from?
Last Edited by on Dec 23, 2009 9:55 PM
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mirollers
1 post
Dec 24, 2009
5:54 AM
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First off, I am sure that most know that Plona's family is mainly down from birds he acquired from LeRoy Smith and a few other imports brought over by the likes of Ray Perkins, Chan Grover, and Father Schattman to name a few. Knowing this, there is a lot of grizzle present in the Plona family, as many of the original imports were grizzles, among them 33-699 and the "unrung white cock" also known as the "Peters" cock - both near white selves and imported by LeRoy Smith in 1935. All of these importations made possible by and from William Pensom himself. As a matter of fact, one of the original pairs that Plona procured from Smith in 1948 was a tortishell cock, JLS37-78 (11 years old at the time) and a light grizzle hen, JLS44-99. 78 was directly off one of the original import pairs of 33-699 and the black checker self hen 34-743. 99 was off the "unrung white cock" and JLS39-83, a black checker self hen directly off two more imports, 29-463, a red w/f cock, son of 521 (the Crystal Palace Champion) and the dunn w/f hen 31-1613. Most know the story of how Stan got this pair but for those who don't, they were selected by Bill Pensom (after dark) out of Smith's stock loft with a flashlight and sold by Smith to Plona for $50, just because they were selected by Bill - a lot of money in 1948. I still have the original pedigree's from that pair, both in Smith's handwriting and dated in May of 1948. There were also a few other grizzles in the original importations of the 1930's but it was those two cocks that were behind almost all the grizzled birds that Stan started with. Flash forward to the present day - most of the grizzles from Stan's family now go back to one of the last bred by LeRoy Smith, JLS68-1653, a tortishell cock who, among others, sired 71-14686, a white ticked black stock cock of Plona's that went to Tom Stone after Stan's death in 1979. Stan stocked three white cocks in 71, all from 1653, and all superior air birds. Many grizzles out there now are down from youngsters bred by Tom. As far as many generations between now and then, I still have grandchildren from 14686 in my stock loft and recently sent one of the cocks to a good friend of mine. Certainly, there is a lot of hearsay and falsehoods when it comes to this family (and other old families), but there are others who have the real goods and can prove it.
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 7:19 AM
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3757
1339 posts
Dec 24, 2009
6:12 AM
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mirollers - That was an excellent post and right on the money historically. There is so much BS out there and untruth about the history and the birds themselves. I hear the same thing about the McCully / Pensom stock and most of what is out there is total bull.
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 6:43 AM
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winwardrollers
372 posts
Dec 24, 2009
8:46 AM
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Mirollers
Good post... this grizzle side of the Plona's I just don't know much about. Birds that went though Tom stone must have alot of grizzle in them. Now when you talk about 743,1613,699,463 this is number's I am fimiliar with and most will that know the history. If you talking about the mid 1970's birds such as 9658,18710,51,9686 solids and checkers these would be number's that are fimiliar to me.
Truly the only birds I understand is the birds I have been presently breeding. Understanding were they came from is of interest to me.. but if I make bad choice's.. now day's.. it will not make no differance what family they decended from.
bwinward
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3757
1340 posts
Dec 24, 2009
9:03 AM
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Winward - That was an honest post. The statement you made "Truly the only birds I understand is the birds I have been presently breeding" is something most individuals do not get. You can send three fanciers birds from someones stock and get three different results and there are a myriad of factors as to why this occurs. A person can only make a judgement on the birds they have only.
I must also add that in almost every post I have read the human mind goes towards the negative. I have never read anywhere where an individual states what the consequences are if the correct choices are made. I know Miroller and his birds spin with correct style so he made the right choices and is an excellent breeder. I know your post was not directed to him in anyway but I wanted to add a positive note to those individuals who do know how to breed great performers.
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2009 9:08 AM
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155
1169 posts
Dec 24, 2009
1:54 PM
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richard.r
ok, maybe i can check you out sometime next year i'm always at my pop mannys house, but that one nice bird you have there...
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
240 posts
Dec 24, 2009
4:18 PM
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Mirollers...very interesting and informative post. Thank you. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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lightin' loft
13 posts
Dec 25, 2009
1:32 AM
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Hey Winward, my name is Hunter, and live in the Los Angeles area. I purchased a couple pair of plonas to breed. I'm going to fly the offspring,and just wanted to get some input about this line.I know that I will get various opinions.I like to hear what pigeon people think about things.-lightnin
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 1:33 AM
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mirollers
2 posts
Dec 25, 2009
3:47 AM
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Merry Christmas to everyone…I am up before the rest of the house and have a chance to get this off before the rest of the house wakes up and the Christmas festivities begin. Tom Stone didn’t have an overabundance of grizzles in his loft but what he did have was the real deal. JLS68-1653 certainly sired some good ones and Tom was the beneficiary of having many years using 71-14686. Tom and I were great friends from the 70’s until his untimely death due to cancer in 1998…he was only 50 years old – I can still hear that southern tinged laugh of his. We spent many hours in each others yards and on the phone not only talking about rollers but of life’s joys and challenges…he was a good guy. Familiarity with your birds is paramount to success and knowing the birds (not just the numbers) that are behind your stock is just icing on the cake. Winwardrollers hits the nail on the head with essentially saying that the most important birds are those in your stock pen right now – these are the birds that are your birds of choice to, not only attempt to maintain what you started with, but try to move forward up the curve to meet what you consider to be ideal. Really knowing what you started with is what pedigrees are really all about, it’s not a guarantee that you will be a great success as you still have to make your own pigeons. Winwardrollers goes two for two in my book and 3757 hits a home run by stating if you make bad choices it makes little difference where they came from which is why the three different fanciers have three different outcomes using stock from the same source. Still it’s interesting to know the history of the birds you’re throwing feed to, especially if you have an unbroken trail all the way back to where it started. It’s cool to have an understanding of bird’s history, especially when other’s have some success with other birds essentially bred the same. Some people knock them but without pedigrees you couldn’t share this experience. For example, three of the four birds previously mentioned I have some knowledge of and they certainly had the background to produce greatness. PRC76-9658, was a dark checker hen that I never handled but I owned her full sister, PRC76-9694, a dunn bald hen, who produced some great birds for me in the 70’s and 80’s. These hens were bred from a mealy badge cock, 73-17075 and a black badge hen, 74-16289. I also owned 69-7115, a lavender badge cock who was the sire of 73-17075, who also produced the goods. Incidentally, 69-7115 was one of the last birds Smith ever bred before his death in 1969. PRC75-18710 was a black checker self cock that I handled several times. He was a spectacular bird in the hand bred from an even more spectacular black checker self cock, 70-11228 and a red spangle hen, 73-17048, bred off two birds bred by LeRoy Smith. I was fortunate enough to have both 11228 and 17048 in my breeding loft and both produced great birds. PRC76-9686, was a lavender self bred from two Smith bred lavenders, 68-1618 and 68-1647. I never handled him but owned four of his brothers – great birds, if you bred them the right way. 1647 died in my loft at the ripe old age of 22. She spent the last few years spoiled rotten but completely blind in her own condominium, a fantastic bird that I just didn't have the heart to put away. She was healthy until the day she died. #51 is the odd bird out here to me as he had to have been bred by someone else as he was, without any question, not bred by Stan Plona. So, without someone caring enough about the birds to maintain records this kind of understanding and discussion is impossible.
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 6:28 AM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
241 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:28 AM
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We have a few books on the Pensom birds, Miroller...a good small book on the Smiths sure would be nice...smile..Bruce...P.S. Could you be talking about IRA-76-51 Blue Check Badge off of PRC 72-16187?
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De Oppresso Liber
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 9:52 AM
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3757
1341 posts
Dec 25, 2009
10:05 AM
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That is the one he is referring to Longroller.
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winwardrollers
373 posts
Dec 25, 2009
10:18 AM
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Now that is what I would like a book on the Smith's.
I have no info. after 1618x1647.
I sure like the looks of 9686 from a picture.. his brother 18313 looks alot bigger and just doesn't seem like they could be brothers.
I am looking for parents of 74-16282 or 75-18753
I would like to go back in time and look at 9658..I have a good dose of her in the lines.
I have a dollar amount written next to 18710 on a pedigree I can't tell if it is $750 or $350.
I have a few other questions you can e-mail me at winwardrollers@hotmail.com
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 9:05 PM
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Scott
2735 posts
Dec 25, 2009
11:33 AM
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Once I realized this my program took off..
(Truly the only birds I understand is the birds I have been presently breeding. Understanding were they came from is of interest to me.. but if I make bad choice's.. now day's.. it will not make no differance what family they decended from.)
Another great little tidbit..they are nothing but past breeding records.
(without someone caring enough about the birds to maintain records this kind of understanding and discussion is impossible.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Scott
2736 posts
Dec 25, 2009
8:26 PM
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I think that it is worth mention that I judged Brad (winwardrollers) in the finals this year.. he had a team that cranked hard solid roll and was one of those teams that stuck on my mind well after the fly... he had his thumb on them a tad hard though and they were on the loft at about 18 min. which kept him from taking the lead at that point.. still he ended up at 3rd in the Nationial champ fly with some of the highest multipliers of the fly...this was a fine team of birds without a doubt.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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fhtfire
2360 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:27 PM
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The Mort side of my birds has some Plona so I have been told...but they are not pure Plona...Mort had crossed in some Higgins and I think Jay Starley and Scott Campbell from Utah...My Mort birds are Mainly Black, Blue Bar, Blue Check, Mottle and Baldheads and red Check..but a dark Red Check almost like a recessive Red color...but I dont know what the color is...but just like Brad, Scott and Joe said....Plona is just on the paper somewhere way back when...
The Mort birds are a stronger more muscular bird..excellent quality and they ball up tight and are on the deeper side..but were not as active...but again...
Like Scott, Joe and Brad stated....it differs from loft to loft...the name is meaningless....you can get a Jac based bird, Ruby, Plona..or what have you and they will be different from loft to loft based on the fanciers management and breeding practices.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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winwardrollers
374 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:54 PM
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Scott
Thanks...looking back it seems like I was only able to visit you for a small moment in time...then you were off to the Far...North.
Just tonight I was sitting down looking over breeders for this next year. I will probably take two,..three at the most, out of that team and give them a try in the breeding loft. The reason that these kit birds would come out of the kit to breed is that I feel they will be a better match to a specific bird already in the breeder loft...not that the breeeders coming out are inferior.
Yes...I had my thumb on the birds. These are very strong birds, they are not easy to fly. The cold snowy freezing weather came in..and made me scratch my head on what to feed. I called Blake Coates who got 8th and 11th last year and the year before with the same birds. It is good to have someone else that flies the same famliy of birds you can help each other out. It takes year's to understand a family of birds, not only so you can.. breed them ..but fly them as well.
This is a great hobby/sport.... It is a challenge that never ends.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2009 9:55 PM
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winwardrollers
375 posts
Dec 25, 2009
9:59 PM
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Paul
If your birds have Plona Blood in the line somewhere it is not from Jay Starley or Scott Campbell of Utah.
bwinward
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COYOTE33
205 posts
Dec 25, 2009
11:09 PM
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Hey miroller did you ever get to talk to dick neuer or gail peterson, these guys had plona stock i think gail still has some. when dick neuer retired i received has family of birds mainly the stuff from the 202 stuff and also stuff out of 3805 or 3803 which is down from the 14686,699, 743. its really a nice family of birds would love to talk to you more about the family, coyote
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fhtfire
2361 posts
Dec 26, 2009
12:17 AM
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Winward,
What do Jay and Scott fly in Utah....I know Mort said he used some of there blood and some Plona based stuff and the Higgins stuff...Mort did all his crossing back in 1988 I think is what he said....He does not keep very good records....he has it all in his head..LOL....so I am only going by what he said..there was a guy named VIPER on here years ago from Utah and I really dont know who it was..but he had emailed me privately back in the day and told me that they were Plona based..to be honest it does not really matter to me...I just moved forward from where Tony and Mort left off...LOL....what line to Jay and Scott fly..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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mirollers
3 posts
Dec 26, 2009
3:38 AM
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A small book on Smith birds would be a lot of fun and a great challenge - perhaps after I hang my cleats up and retire in a couple of years, I can find the time to focus on one. For now, I am president of a commercial construction firm and am quite consumed with staying viable in this marvelous Michigan economy. If it could just get to a point to be classified as “sputtering and poor”, it would be an invigorating and delightful change from reality.
Unfortunately, there is no background that exists anywhere on any of the 1968 bred Smith birds. During the 60’s, Smith’s health was already beginning to fail and his record keeping went from nearly impeccable to non-existent the last few years of his life. As far as 76-9686 and 77-18313 are concerned, they certainly are brothers but I can’t compare the two as I never handled either. I did own 77-18312, a red checker badge cock, who was the nestmate of 77-18313 and who was in Plona’s stock pen when he died in 1979. He was medium sized that actually produced better type than he was himself, but only produced one bird of any aerial merit after a couple of years (that I stocked out) and I moved him out of my program. At the time my stock loft, was made up of almost entirely of birds that Plona bred or bred from, including three brothers of his, and there were others that I valued more highly. I also owned the red grizzle cock, 79-3803 as well as his sister, the white ticked red pearl eyed hen, 79-3830, both some of the last that Plona bred from the white ticked black cock, 71-14686. By that time, because I had nearly unlimited access to other offspring of 14686, they became expendable as there were better birds available to me and I replaced them from my stock pen. Sure, they produced some real ones, but with limited stock space, I simply couldn’t keep them all.
Flying this family does create some challenges as they are built to fly and love to fly so if you don’t “keep your thumb on them” and, as importantly, your eye on the weather, they will be gone for sure. My experience has been that just cutting back on the feed quantity or quality isn’t a guarantee that you’ll have birds to fly tomorrow. When I sense that they are becoming a little "too fit", now I just lock them down for a couple of weeks and essentially get them “out of shape” before I start to fly them again. Sure, you hate to do it especially if they are working hard but after losing at least my fair share of good birds to overflys, this system works for me.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 5:16 AM
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3757
1342 posts
Dec 26, 2009
6:34 AM
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Miroller- Great post! I know you and I have already spoken about this in the past but for the new fanciers it is important for them to ask questions to the guy they received the birds from on production, why he or she used this bird or had it in stock etc. (The example of 18312 is a perfect example not to focus on the pedigree). Miroller kept better birds that were producing better results not a piece of paper. 18312's pedigree was awesome but he moved on with the better birds he had in his possession. This is a key fact that many still do not understand and it is an important one. This pedigree trap was used by a few individuals who actually caused pain to many fanciers by writing pedigrees that were not true and the results the people who purchased the birds (for big $) had were zero. Ask the fancier direct questions as this will help you more than anything else. It is too bad many will not ask the fancier directly and try the back door approach by asking others who will give them a bias answer or think they know it themselves.
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 6:44 AM
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Scott
2737 posts
Dec 26, 2009
8:24 AM
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LaRon.. A few ? it still goes on to day with every family worth mention.
(This pedigree trap was used by a few individuals )
miroller.. where are you with these birds today 35 or so years later ? have you been able to maintain the stud with decent percentages of good one's ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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COYOTE33
206 posts
Dec 26, 2009
9:29 AM
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thanks for your post miroller and thanks for keeping it positive without being negitive about any other fanciers.i appreicate your honesty on how you breed and how you stay focus. i have alot of that blood you mention in my loft and yes it is a challenge staying focus. i don't cross my plona's with my other families just on the fact you mention on how they fly so different, but thanks for keeping it real, coyote
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winwardrollers
376 posts
Dec 26, 2009
9:40 AM
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Paul
Starley flies his own birds that are from Hilton through Destouet. Scott Campbell of Utah use to fly Norm Reed Birds, that would have been the birds that Mort would have gotten from Scott know doubt.
Morteza would have got plona birds from Newman. I gave Newman some culls one day that he figured he needed. Newman was older need to get rid of birds so Morteza ended up with them. Morteza is a lot like you in his breeding likes to stir the pot. Mort has a good memory and can remember what he wants..lol
To answer your question...yes Starley and Scott still fly.
Viper is Blake..Chewy is his dog.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 10:02 AM
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fhtfire
2362 posts
Dec 26, 2009
9:57 AM
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Thanks
Maybe Mort said they were reeds and I remember Higgins...since they are both from the same area....to be honest...I dont care where they came from...they are working..LOL...and the Culls you sent over must have been ok...cause they produce the goods now...but I remember Mort telling me back in the late 80s when he got them...it took him many years to get rid of the roll downs...and the trash...he said his % was horrible when he first started...he said he had lots of roll downs....but when I was flying pure Morts...I had very few roll downs...they were on the stiffer side....I had more rolldowns with the Rubys then the Morts when I was flying pure...but Not a large number...I rarely get roll downs now....maybe two or three a year...anyway...I have never really cared about the past peds....I could care less...I look at the individual bird when I stock...not where it came from.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Get it right man...I dont stir the pot...I had a little salt to the stew...but you are right..Mort stirs the pot...LOL
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Scott
2739 posts
Dec 26, 2009
10:00 AM
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I knew that you knew LOL
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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winwardrollers
378 posts
Dec 26, 2009
10:15 AM
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3757
You..stated" (The example of 18312 is a perfect example not to focus on the pedigree).
That is the kicker to this breeding game..
brother #1,brother#2,sister#1, sister#2 don't always breed the same...a pedigree chaser will end up with differant stock down the line. The majority of the family may breed well but who know if you got the lemon.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 26, 2009 10:28 AM
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winwardrollers
379 posts
Dec 26, 2009
10:20 AM
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Paul
No Higgin birds in the state that I know of.
bwinward
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viper
71 posts
Dec 26, 2009
8:09 PM
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Paul I'm still here about every night to see whats going on.Just for giggles a guy told me he went to Brad after a kit of culls yea culls hell he took the spring and fall club flys sweeping the 6 flys then flew to long in the fall and lost them all to hawks.
Blake Coates
P.S.I don't like evan a little salt in my bird stew.LOL.
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fhtfire
2366 posts
Dec 26, 2009
11:31 PM
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Hey Blake,
Now I know who viper was..it was so long ago that we emailed...I could not remember who it was....Now I know..but I will forget again next week..LOL...My salt is another mans bland stew..LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Blake....so could you let me know again..what exactly Mort has that you know of....Since Mort does not keep very good records...and remembers in his head....not that I think Mort does not know his birds..but I know Mort flew some Jacs too..but they were not his best...My first birds I got from him way back when were the Jac stuff then after he knew I was serious I got his main lines..I think Mort is confused at times as to what I got from him....what do you know of Morts background on his main line....Plona based with Scott C. and Jay Starley....with a bit of salt from the reed.....I believe he did this all in the late 80s early 90's
Fill me in.
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mirollers
4 posts
Dec 27, 2009
4:42 AM
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Coyote, thanks for the kind words. There is no need to be negative in most issues that we face in life, and even less need when dealing with parts of our life that we participate in for the sheer enjoyment of it. People who take the “glass half empty” approach are generally unhappy with everything EXCEPT when they can attempt to impose some of their nonsense and unhappiness on others. Their only joy comes from trying to make others as miserable as they are…quite sad really. Instead of offering other ideas or solutions, they spend their lives looking for ways to be critical or pseudo-controversial…it’s what makes them tick. Still, the world is full of them and, in most instances, I chose to simply ignore them and just pity them for what they are. So, there’s my pontification for this morning:-).
Certainly, selection of birds only by pedigree can be more than just a little dangerous and maybe even a little naïve, however, don’t make the mistake of thinking pedigrees are worthless. In the selection of any animals, the gene pool that is behind any particular animal represents all the good (and the bad) traits that you can expect to encounter if you use them for breeding stock. A great man once said that coincidence is the cause of many to believe the impossible. Wouldn’t you be best served to use a gene pool that has generations of excellence behind it in lieu of using what might be the exception? Whether you are selecting hunting dogs, thoroughbred race horses, or laboratory mice the use of pedigree is important – why do you think that descendents of Secretariat and Man O’War command a greater value than offspring of the horse used to pull the wagon that dropped off ice to your great-grandmother?...unless of course you own an ice business:-). From that point, the caveat being they still have to prove themselves by either seeking out pheasants, winning the Kentucky derby, or satisfying you in the goal(s) that you are trying to achieve. The best stock are animals that are capable of reproducing themselves or even better than themselves. It’s quite simple really and too many make too much of it…start with good stock, select traits that you consider desirable while eliminating those you deem undesirable. People that insist they are unconcerned about pedigrees are not doing themselves a service….why make this hobby or any other involving animal husbandry more difficult than it already is? It also stands to reason and is scientific fact that the smaller the gene pool, statistically speaking, the greater chance you have to be successful and reproduce what is already there – assuming that what you started with is worthwhile. The family that I have bred from the 70’s was quite highly inbred going all the back to the 1930’s and I still have found no need to introduce anything else into them. I never understood why or how the notion of wanting or needing to mix families became so vogue – unless of course what you started with was lacking.
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 5:34 AM
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Scott
2741 posts
Dec 27, 2009
7:05 AM
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I found that pedigrees did me great harm for a good number of years..I put value in birds that had no value because they were jammed up with this blood or that blood.. and I put little to no value into birds that had the true value because they didn't look as good on paper..
What I discovered was in reality I only had a few good one's and once I identified these and used the rest for fosters was when I finaly made head wind..it is worth nothing that what became fosters were tightly related to the few good one's.
I have since come to learn that only what is in "my" loft ,living, breathing and kicking out the goods has any value at all where a pedigree is concerned..this has nothing to do with mixing families as I truely believe in tightly woven gene pools around key birds..the problem is when the culls from such gene pools get pedigrees thrown on them.
There have been more than a few that made/make small fortunes by the pedigrees they wrote/write..when the breed would be better served by culling everything on the property even though they are loaded with the "right" blood.
Myself I won't write a pedigree unless such bird has prooven itself worthy of it...and most would be better served starting with a tightly bred family with no pedigrees until they figured out what produces and what doesn't.
Now with all of that said..pedigrees are nothing but breeding records..and there is no reason nor excuse not to have such or be able to trace a bird back and I wouldn't have a bird that isn't tracable and that you couldn't put a pedigree to.
I have always had a keen interest in the old families that have been bred by performance and not pedigree..they are some what rare though due to prioritys being wrong.
I was recently piching Don Oulletts Plona based family..these were birds well worth handing that had to earn their way into stock...I don't drag many birds home these days but I would have dragged a pair of these home..same with Brad and Kenny Billing just to name a couple ..pigeons like these are made by "their" selection of the right pigeons.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 2:25 PM
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3757
1344 posts
Dec 27, 2009
9:50 AM
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Miroller - That was eloquently stated and the true facts.
Scott - I think Miroller summed it up. The key word is I. It had nothing to do with the pedigree at all but what you put value in. I would have ask the breeder why did they "jamm" up this or that bird. The person you received the bird from should have been a wealth of knowledge for you? I bet they had no real solid breeding answer for why they bred the bird that way? If they had no answer you should have aced it right away in my opinion.
"I put value in birds that had no value because they were jammed up with this blood or that blood.. and I put little to no value into birds that had the true value because they didn't look as good on paper..
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JMUrbon
817 posts
Dec 27, 2009
10:16 AM
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Man if more guys would breed that wat Scott instead of breeding from paper this hobby would have moved in the rite direction a whole lot faster. I hope all on this list are reading this thread because I think it has turned into one of the most informative threads that I have seen on RPDC. I have been saying for years that no pigeon is a stock bird just because somebody sold it to you as such. Unless it can produce the good it is on borrowed time. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
2742 posts
Dec 27, 2009
2:24 PM
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LaRon.. I was only sharing "my" experiance.. in hopes that some will not make the same mistakes.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 2:26 PM
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pat66
448 posts
Dec 27, 2009
2:45 PM
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Doc and Scott, It is nice to read your posts, my breeding took a different direction due to all of you experienced roller guys ! you guys are a credit to the sport! THANK YOU FOR BEING TEACHERS TO US STUDENTS!!!!!!!!!!!HAPPY NEW YEAR! It will be for me!----------
Pat
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viper
73 posts
Dec 27, 2009
5:12 PM
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Paul
When Mort won the state fly,we was after him as to what they were and he rattled off a ped that would put Obama to sleep of how it all started with birds he caught under a bridge LOL not pulling your chain on this.Then Utah Campbell told the story as Brad has stated with jacs also in the mix thats what I remember about them.His state kit was mostly reds and badges and a couple blacks with white flights.Thats what I remember and it was a good team that day.
Morts quite a guy. Blake
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viper
74 posts
Dec 27, 2009
5:16 PM
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I figured out a while ago not to mark birds so you can tell which pair they came from because I was hanging on to birds way to long just for what they was out of now I cull it then look at the band number.Blake
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fhtfire
2368 posts
Dec 27, 2009
6:32 PM
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Blake,
I do the same thing..I dont even look at what it is out of...I make my selections for stock based on performance only...then after I select my mating I check the band numbers..I only change pairings if they are Brother sister or Father Daughter or Monther Son....but other than that...I dont even want to know....Chasing band numbers is a pipe dream
rock and ROLL
Paul
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