fhtfire
2369 posts
Dec 27, 2009
6:34 PM
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I have gotten the same from Mort...Could never pin him down...he is a crafty guy and sometimes I am wondering if he is just jerking my chain on some of the mating and stories...but what I do believe is when he said he sent me good birds...I beleive it..and when he says its a good bird..I believe it.....because the proof is in the air and on the perch...and I dont care if he got his birds from under a bridge....they are working out real good...Thanks again Blake..welcome back
Rock and ROLL
Paul
I plan on visiting Mort soon and I want to meet all you guys.
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viper
75 posts
Dec 27, 2009
8:11 PM
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Chewy is looking forward to your visit:)Sounds good it would be good to sit and chat.Blake
Last Edited by on Dec 27, 2009 8:12 PM
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mirollers
5 posts
Dec 28, 2009
4:17 AM
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3757, you are spot on in that analysis. For me, again, the selection of stock is to perpetuate and improve desirable qualities that are already there while continuing to diminish traits that are not desirable. My focus is, and has always been, to produce that bird that is not only capable of ripping the sky apart with the delivery of the roll, but continues to possess all the rest of the qualities that I am selecting for. The mechanics of genetic selection is just this - nothing more and nothing less. The longer this selection process goes on, provided you are consistent with your selections and your focus remains unchanged, the more solid your stock will become. If your goals are mirror the breeder from where your stock originated, you will be even further up the curve.
In a previous post, contact information for Jim Lippencott was requested. He doesn’t have email as the infrastructure around his very picturesque home is quite pioneer like. If you forward your contact information to me at mirollers@sbcglobal.net I will send it along to him. I can say, without any question, that his Plona stock didn’t originate with Dick Stephens.
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3757
1347 posts
Dec 30, 2009
5:07 AM
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"For me, again, the selection of stock is to perpetuate and improve desirable qualities that are already there while continuing to diminish traits that are not desirable."
Miroller - That is it in a nutshell but when a person has a myriad of genes in his pool it will take them a lifetime to weed out all of those undesirable and unknown genetic traits. I was reading a post on another site where a fancier who I respect spoke of the fastest bird he had seen. Guess what? The bird was not from a Heinz 57 mix or from the palm tree!
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winwardrollers
381 posts
Dec 30, 2009
9:18 AM
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3757
Your above post.."when a person has a myriad of genes in his pool it will take them a lifetime to weed out all of those undesirable and unknown genetic traits."
I can see that we need to get you hooked up with Pirate Paul you need some help..lol..Paul just had to ruffle your feathers one more time this year, before the year come to a close.
This is getting off the subject but..Paul now if you want to talk to someone about breeding milking goats. I believe Mirollers still breeds goats or at less did extentcively in the past.
bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 3:24 PM
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3757
1348 posts
Dec 30, 2009
9:41 AM
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Yes, I think the bridge thing Paul stated got to me (Love ya Paul). A friend of mine had some really great stock for 35 years. In the last 8 years he has added some birds from people who said they did not cross his stock and guess what he got? Creams, some other strange colors that I had to ask my good friend Frank Mosca what colors they were. It is so bad he had to kill 40 birds and now he is thinking of starting over with birds from me. That is why now there is only a few people I would use a bird from if it was absolutely necessary and have closed my loft.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2009 9:44 AM
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michael salus
93 posts
Dec 31, 2009
6:53 AM
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mirollers, Someone asked what your name was and I don't think you answered that question. You write so well and are very knowledgeable and it would be nice to know who we are talking to. Thanks and have a Happy and Safe New Year.
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MJ
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Scott Coe
21 posts
Dec 31, 2009
7:09 AM
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It seems to me all the great birds from the past were breed by sight and mind. Not genetic engeiners, the mind set of great breeders like pensom and paloma is where we should go to make this a better breed. There is only one Gene that makes them spin . The rest is in the eye of the handler.
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winwardrollers
388 posts
Dec 31, 2009
7:56 AM
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Mi,Mi,Mi...lol sorry I got you mixed up with your Antithesis. I want to say that was an easy thing to do but I won't..lol
My favorite Pigeon Breeder is simply J Leroy Smith. Maybe I relate to him because I grow up on a successful Dairy farm. Making mistakes with breeding was costly.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 8:10 AM
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fhtfire
2401 posts
Dec 31, 2009
8:39 AM
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mirollers,
You trying to make your posts longer then mine...VERY good post...and when I said OLD SCHOOL way of breeding....I was talking about the way you inbreed just to inbreed....and I am not one hundered years old...I am kind of like a Parrot....I repeat what I have learned and what has been taught to me...DR. Joan Dean Rowe is the one who told me that...when I first started breeding livestock way back when..I did a lot of research and back then inbreeding was "THE THING TO DO" 20-30 years prior to that..in the 40-50's...but when I was going to do it..she asked me why...and I coudl not explain..she said inbreeding everything is OLD SCHOOL THINKING...you can like you said...think out the box...and use selective breeding I was taught to breed like Plona...find what you want..the weave it in and out and back and fourth...hitting the cousins and Aunts and UNCLES..
Chan Grover..what a great man....That was the single best visit of my breeding life..not just pigeons..his knowledge is second to none...and it appears that Chan is more in the favor of the Plona type breeding system...he told me....what am I getting the best numbers out of...I said Cousins...and he just laughed and smiled and said..keep it up...cousins are key...that I was on the right track.....to close can take there quicker but can knock you have the tracks quick too...
I understand the breeding for a Dairy Farm...that was I did too..we had 8 strings of goats to milk...over 150 head...morning and night.....and when you are breeding for the Dairy..I had to put my different thinking cap on..because then I was breeding for MILK PRODUCTION as well as trying to keep the show ring traits..and that was hard..so hard to do..I did have to inbreed some does to lock in some of the strong show traits and maintain the Milk Production..but the Milk Production is like the ROll Gene....its there already...and once you lock in what you want..then you try and keep both....It is not easy.
I guess most are like Smith..but he obviously was a talented breeder to be able to inbreed so aggressivly and still not hit a wall....I am for what works....With me..I breed more like Plona...who by what you say..."Pretzel" breeds..or finds what he wanted and teh made the loops back and fourth through the relatives to the select pair....the reason why I breed this way is because it was the way I was taught and I know it works...I have bred many Champion Livestock with this type of breeding....and whe I came to the pigeon forums and everyone told me you had to inbreed and keep it super tight or you would go nowhere...I did not believe it...it actually made me accept a challenge..and guess what...it is working in pigeons too...but some are under the assumption that I have all these hodgepodge pigeons..with the truth is..I only have 10 breeders and out of those 10...I mainly keep from 4 pairs..or should I say two cocks...I line breed..different hens but close enough to keep the traits I am looking for..the two cocks are from different families but the families go together like peas and carrots...and 3757 said it...heinz 57 is not the way to go and that sauce has more then two ingredients....I was also playing devils advocate in many posts..That I dont do very often..but now I have confused everybody to what I am actually doing....anwyay....That was a GREAT POST>.one of the best....Thank you for your time and keep posting....Again....All I have to say is this...I listen to who is been there done that..when I laid out how I breed to Chan and he said keep doing it...guess what...I keep doing it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2402 posts
Dec 31, 2009
8:45 AM
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3757..
The bridge think did get me too..but to be honest when it comes to pigeons you can only take the WORD of the breeder..there is no governing body tha is keeping records on breeding and paperwork or peds....so you never know what you are getting EVEN if it says so on paper...so that was my statement of I dont care where they came from...and I have not gotten any wierd color is my loft yet...but I do get your point..but my proof is in the pudding....if it was shit..they would not work...they would not improve....that is what I started with in the begining...CRAP no matter what I did I got garbage....even if I selected birds doing it..and then I got some top notches...but guess what...now they breed just fine and I am getting what I need.....but truly I dont want a bird from under a bridge...but where I am at now in my breeding program and this new found information about bridges is meaningless......hind sight being 20/20 but its to late to go back now.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott Coe
22 posts
Dec 31, 2009
8:54 AM
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There is only one Gene to roll.
Every thing else is a modifier. the great breeders like pensom and palmas knew this and bred from sight,eye and insight.How they changed these modifiers and not all bred. Is What put them at the hieght of time and place. with one goal to get the best. To quote Nick Siders This is just my take on things.
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 8:58 AM
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3757
1350 posts
Dec 31, 2009
9:36 AM
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Miroller - Thanks for the compliment!
Paul - That is why I only trust a few people who you could count on one hand. All the people I trust are my dear friends, all breed in individual Pens as I do and all received thier birds directly from Stan Plona, Bill Pensom or Smith directly and breed for high velocity as I do. I have another friend in Northern California, who I would not use a bird from even though we are friends, who recently told me and sent photos of birds he bred and these birds have all sorts of weird colors. Well, according to him he used birds from other fanciers and now he is coming up with stuff unheard of in his original Pensom line. That is why I have been so deligent in researching and progeny testing my family. Hey, some do not care if they are from a bridge or have top notches but I do. Incidently, my friend now wants to get birds from me since he knows how I am, how I breed and my understand of the breed. He has been to my home a multitude of times.
Paul - My part one manuscript is completed and will be advertised on Tony's website (Tony you have mail).
P.S - Paul - I can prove to you that Pensom had a family when he died in 1968 just e-mail me.
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 9:47 AM
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mirollers
7 posts
Dec 31, 2009
10:05 AM
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winwardrollers – no need for any mea culpas, it happens. If your mistake was “an easy thing to do” because, for the most part, I write in complete sentences and you suspect that I have all my teeth…then even better:-).
Another great post by fhtfire and, in the interest of brevity and to maintain peace in the family, I will sign off now:-).
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Scott Coe
23 posts
Dec 31, 2009
10:35 AM
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There is only one gene to roll in a DNA strand every thing else is a modifier.
That said it all goes back to basics change the modifier and you change the roll. The only problem is not all are bred. The great breeders knew this before DNA analyis. It was pure sight,hand, and passion. in closing its not the birds fault in most cases. it's the breeder and all the modifiers we have shoved in . Evolution will take over were we fail to improve . They were great due to the ability to identify traits.
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fhtfire
2404 posts
Dec 31, 2009
12:06 PM
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Ok..I got the story from Mort on the Bridge Pigeon...LOL...It was a racing homer and he said to tell everyone that he made the racer into a roller...an old iranian trick..LOL..He said he found a Racing Homer under a bridge and bred it to some Racers he had just for shits and giggles.
As far as how Mort started....he just gave me the rundown...he started with select birds back in the 80's...He got one Cock from and Old man in Colorado...that was not a comp guy and nobody really knew him...but he had a cock that was just perfect..so Mort bought the cock off of him out of the air...He then got some Pigeons from Paul Bradford and had a couple birds from Bob Brown...and a Higgins bird...he then worked those birds for years. Then once he found what he wanted..he started inbreeding hard...then he said he stopped because his feather quality took a huge crapper....so he then started Line breeding. He did inject some Jac blood for a couple years...and then went back to line breeding....he said most of his bird go back to select pairs and most go back to the original Cock he got in Colorado...
He says he has no STARLEY or basically not to many from Utah....he said he has been breeding his own stuff by line breeding...he said he quit inbreeding because he did not need to and everytime he did his feather quality suffered BAD..so he locked in a bad gene in there from his inbreeding..so he was forced to say away from hit...he said he did bring birds in here or there....I think he mentioned Scott Campbell of Utah...and he did that to try and see about the feather quality...it was just to big of a task...so he continued to line breed.
So..the bridge bird was not a roller..it was a homer...he said he did inject it into his roller for speed..then he started laughing.....
Mort suffered a huge loss to most of his original breeders..they froze to death about a month ago...he was so upset..so I had a couple of his originals he let me borrow last year to fill perch space and to use as fosters....so I am sending those back...and I am sending two of his pure in my B-team that are rolling like crazy...that were out of his pairs....so..he said..he wants to get back into it again...so you UTAH guys...Mort will be calling to get back into some flys.....so now I know where they came from.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 12:11 PM
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fhtfire
2408 posts
Dec 31, 2009
3:21 PM
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So...I know Mort has many different lines and he does not breed close to how I breed. What I posted is what the birds in my loft came out of....Other Mort birds..I could not tell you.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
1351 posts
Dec 31, 2009
3:40 PM
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"I dont review peds I dont follow all the famous band numbers"
This will lead you to a hole in the ground Paul and it amazes me how many think some who have a little knowledge and history do this. That is a waste of time. Band numbers are meaningless and just because of bird is off of a famous pigeon means nothing at all to me or my collegues. The key and the only key is first having the genetic structure in your stock to do what you desire and understanding what it takes to improve on the birds you start with.
Also, tell Chan the deal of $ for the photo collection still stands if he desires.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 6:43 AM
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fhtfire
2410 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:15 PM
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3757,
I lost you..what does that mean a hole in the ground..you lot me..LOL...
I need to go see him again....and those photo albums are GOLD man...oh my gosh i was like holy crap..look at all the history....Although I could not tell you many band numbers or famous pigeons...I did like seeing all the old stuff that were tied to all the stories....and I really like the WW2 stuff...I love war history..the History channel is my FAVORITE>>>..I hope the day he passes that those photos dont get lost and that someone gets them that would put them in a book....for the world to see...and then give the proceeds to the book to a fund or something set up in his name...those photos should be in a pigeon museum....they are priceless..
I need to talk with Bill Crider and go visit him again..I have more questions I want to ask..especially from some of these posts.
Knowledge is power and alot of these posts got me thinking...about stuff...LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
1352 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:31 PM
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I actually videotaped most of the albums about 17 years ago but not all of them as Chan would say :) I will tell you a secret Paul. The band numbers are not the key at all but a trap that many fall into. You hear it all of the time things like I have a brother to so and so and I have a sister etc. This means nothing.
Study those photos and it will hit you like a rock. The (hole) saying is an old saying which means the band numbers will lead you to nowhere. I believe if we share the old knowledge more individuals will have great quality birds. If everyone had high quality birds the world would be a better place!
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 4:39 PM
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fhtfire
2411 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:41 PM
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Ok..gotcha...I too took digital photos of some of his pictures...I will post a couple right now.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
2412 posts
Dec 31, 2009
4:51 PM
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Me with Don O...Bourges...Chris and shit the guy on the end..cant remember his name..
I will post a couple photos of my Morts, Ruby and Flashover birds the crosses
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2009 4:52 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3500 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:16 PM
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Thx for the pics Paul,all them birds look like lil powerhouse.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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3757
1354 posts
Dec 31, 2009
5:58 PM
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Paul - Here are a few Pensom strain rollers down from Pensom, Smith and Plona bloodlines.
This bird bred a youngster that spun so fast that he appeared to the naked eye as a perfect circle and shrinking as if he was spinning in one place and decended slowly. I have only seen five like that with that velocity in my lifetime.
<
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 1:14 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3506 posts
Dec 31, 2009
6:21 PM
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Hey LaRon looking good,,.
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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3757
1355 posts
Dec 31, 2009
8:23 PM
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Thanks Ralph.
Looks great Paul. Just stay your course.
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fhtfire
2419 posts
Jan 01, 2010
12:41 AM
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Very nice looking pigeons..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
2776 posts
Jan 01, 2010
1:13 AM
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Very few that I would bring birds in from also LaRon..and like you I like the old blood .. what is funny is I can garrantee that we have completly different lists.
(That is why I only trust a few people who you could count on one hand. All the people I trust are my dear friends, all breed in individual Pens as I do and all received thier birds directly from Stan Plona, Bill Pensom or Smith directly and breed for high velocity as I do.)
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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3757
1356 posts
Jan 01, 2010
1:31 AM
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Scott - That is good as most do not understand what I mean by closing the loft. Also, The list would be different because of demographics, associations and relationships with certain fanciers, trust standards, personal biases but I bet the birds trace back to the same guy. The list does not matter but what does matter is that the people on the list can produce the highest quality style and velocity birds.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2010 1:33 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
1624 posts
Jan 02, 2010
1:05 AM
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Hi LaRon...
In regards to this statement below;
"This bird bred a youngster that spun so fast that he appeared to the naked eye as a perfect circle and shrinking as if he was spinning in one place and decended slowly."
Hmm...
I will be sending you a box for some squeakers off that Red Badge Pensom with the blue band on the right leg. (smile)
Happy New Years
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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pat66
451 posts
Jan 02, 2010
5:56 AM
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Doc,the red badge in the top photo,is that any relation to 508 you sent in this last shipment? they look like twins?
Hope you had a good New Year!
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Pat
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gotspin7
2622 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:20 AM
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3757, I have a couple here that are almost perfect circles as well. The best part on these is that anybody can see it. HA!
These two, I am not so sure that they are pure but do show the circle.....
Still waiting Laron....LOL
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Salvador Ortiz
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3757
1358 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:34 AM
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Sal, feliz año nuevo y que Dios te bendiga de Oso. Also, I sent a couple of birds to your clubs contest which I will make a yearly habit of doing. Great concept your club has. Thurmond Davis witnessed this one as he is a reputable name in the kit circles. He like these so much he has quite a few pairs now from me of which I am most proud.
Pat - No but they are related.
Marcus - Happy New Years!
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 6:51 AM
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gotspin7
2624 posts
Jan 02, 2010
6:54 AM
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Laron, Happy New Year. I also like what the club does, as it just compares the best individual, to other individuals..LOL. We should have it soon after the World Cup Pre-lims. How many bids did you send? I have never heard of Thurmond, I will ask Robert and Steve when I get some time. Hope you have a good breeding season.
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Salvador Ortiz
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mirollers
8 posts
Jan 02, 2010
1:53 PM
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3757 and fhtfire, thanks for the great posts of the birds. Fhtfire, I like the photos of your birds as the photographs (to my eye anyway) look as if they are all quite short coupled, that is, they appear short from the tip of their beak to the tip of their tail and all truly appear to have similar genotype. It has been my experience and elementary physics confirm that these birds, when compared to birds that have longer bodies (and typically longer keels) always appear to have higher velocity. I also admire your enthusiasm for the hobby that is so apparent in your postings. 3757’s Pensom birds are a breath of fresh air because, not only are they great lookers, but they clearly demonstrate that Pensoms are a lot more than just dark checkers, which too many believe that was all there was. The red checker badge cock at the top could easily sneak into a “Plonas Only” reunion:-)…the resemblance, at least from that picture and to my eyes, is uncanny.
We have really gotten off the subject of “plonas” but, for the most part, this thread has some great information, similarly said, albeit approached from different angles, that can become very useful to everyone, especially those just beginning the challenge of this crazy (but entertaining) hobby of ours. It’s crazy enough…how many of us have friends, not in the hobby, that look at you like you’re a taco or two short of a combination plate, when you tell them you breed and fly pigeons, let alone those that do somersaults? I am also tickled that the mystery of the “birds from under the bridge” has been debunked. In the day and age of the internet, where many things get written and sometimes misconstrued, it is incumbent of those with some real experience to share reality and, even if things are said with the proverbial tongue-in-cheek, perception is everything and there is no sense making the roller hobby any more confusing than it is already been made.
Fhtfire, you are also right on about Chan Grover watching over and reading postings on this site. He absolutely does. I was delightfully surprised by a phone call from Chan this afternoon due to his reading the postings on this thread. Chan, that was so fantastic and I will get the couple of things we talked about out your way. You made it seem like it was just yesterday, when we were touring the California countryside visiting different lofts. Those were magical times that were really fabulous to me and thanks so much. I will never forget them.
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 2:02 PM
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3757
1359 posts
Jan 02, 2010
4:55 PM
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Thanks Miroller - Most guys think that Pensom's entire line was 514 which is totally ridiculous.
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2010 4:56 PM
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