spinner ball
50 posts
Jan 21, 2010
8:35 AM
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Does anyone know who this guy is I heard he has good rollers
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3848 posts
Jan 21, 2010
8:50 AM
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Hey spinner ball, here is a link that features him, Stan Arnold: CLICK HERE
There is more on the board. He certainly did not take any crap from Scott or KGB. LOL
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
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spinner ball
51 posts
Jan 21, 2010
10:06 AM
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Stan is a tough guy but I heard he knows rollers.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3853 posts
Jan 21, 2010
10:20 AM
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I tried to log in to his old site and it just times out. He is in Canada and someone here might know how to reach him.
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
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Missouri-Flyer
1678 posts
Jan 21, 2010
11:12 AM
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Ol' Stan,
I remember that guy....spinner, you say he is a tough guy..my question is, how do you know hes tough, but know nothing about him or his birds?
Hey Tony. :)
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2010 11:13 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3855 posts
Jan 21, 2010
11:15 AM
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Hey Jerry!
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FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
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Hector Coya
602 posts
Jan 21, 2010
2:51 PM
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I heard Stan got out of birds.
he got rid of everything and gave up.
Too much crap for him to take.
He did know his rollers,And he did post his score that nobody bereaved,
He bred crested rollers and from what i heard from another guy in Canada,they really rolled good.
Hector Coya- SGVSclub.ning.com
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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JMUrbon
865 posts
Jan 22, 2010
9:56 PM
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I remember Stan and if my memory is correct he gave as good as he got. The crests were pretty close to your heart too Hector. I am not going to say anything bad about Stan but he was pretty dead set that his crests were legit. I seen some of his pictures and although I have never had a creast pop up on my birds I wouldnt say that it couldnt happen. I also certainly would not say his birds didnt roll because I believe from his passion that they probably rolled well. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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pigeon pete
499 posts
Jan 23, 2010
11:49 AM
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Crests 'popped up' (ha ha) in one notable fanciers loft, and as he has good rollers the gene has spread to other lofts in England, but whether they were crossed way back sometime, or whether it is a mutation that can spring up in any breed of domestic pigeon I don't know.
Pete.
P.S this is from Graham Dexter in Portugal not England, so maybe they are some sort of Portugese Tumblers? ; )
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Scott
2812 posts
Jan 23, 2010
12:01 PM
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Peaks and crests are different..the Helmet type crests come from crosses.. which is obvious even if you shaved the cresta off.
As for Stans crests.. according to Bill Watson.. Stan showed him and Ron Kumro (they were judging up there ) what was being crossed for the crests years ago after Bill wouldn't let up on him as they were obvious crosses .. once I brought this little piece of history up Stan faded off of this site.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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3757
1374 posts
Jan 23, 2010
1:05 PM
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I have scorns of old historical stuff about guys crossing the birds. I think it is a crime and a sin but my religion is not for everyone and I do not try and convert unless the person is willing to accept :) I do however think the guys need to know history and because they see grouse they think cross and the old stock had a lot of grouse and muff birds. Anyone that has the old stock has seen it.
Since you guys like history and watch everyone and there mom repeats this AS I have seen it time and time again. George Gulla was one of the pioneers to get the White bars, adulusians and all of those colors into what he called his Birmingham rollers (Still a crime to me and I love George even though he has passed on). George was a great man and he gave me some of the best advice a young lad could have. My dad was there and he always told me stick with the Pensom base birds. He never pushed his color birds on me at all. George Gulla was a hell of a man who I respected. I bring thise up because I have read articles where someone else got the credit for the color stuff and George was pioneering it in the late 40'-50's. I have always had a question about crossing non Birminghams and my question is WHY? No disrepect for those who do it, have did it,or mentors did it I am just curious.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 1:10 PM
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Hector Coya
606 posts
Jan 23, 2010
1:10 PM
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No doubt they are crossed,reading the other post from the real Grham dexter ,you can see what a mess it was when they would go around picking up birds from everywhere,im sure some of those birds where crossed many times over.
Read the other post.(interesting article out of UK ),and you will be shocked at what was going on years ago.
If Pensom was going around picking up birds that sometimes where strays,whos to know what the background is?
Im sure thers more crosses in this breed than anyone would like to admit.
If they Roll real good,thats all that matters to me.
Hector Coya
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 1:13 PM
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JEFF WILSON
51 posts
Jan 23, 2010
2:21 PM
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3757 i think some folks have trouble seeing the beauaty in just a plain blue check or black or any of your just basic colors.i think they tried to spice things up by breeding some new colors.this is the only reason i can think of that they would cross breed the birds.now that is just what they have cross breeds they have then wasted what someone had worked years to make and ruined years of lineage.just my thoughts. Jeff
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spinner ball
52 posts
Jan 23, 2010
5:04 PM
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Stan is a buddy of mine and he knows rollers and how to fly them.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3520 posts
Jan 23, 2010
5:29 PM
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Spinning ball you say you heard he has good rollers and you heard he knows rollers and now you say he's a buddy of yours .why ask these ? like you don't know..----------"Stan is a buddy of mine and he knows rollers and how to fly them"
Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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3757
1375 posts
Jan 24, 2010
3:21 AM
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Ralph you forgot to add the first two before pigeons in your quote :) dios Y Los mujeres. (That is man upstairs,women and then pigeons is my order).Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
Ralph - email me when you get time.
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Hector Coya
609 posts
Jan 24, 2010
7:35 AM
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These are 2 birds bred by my friend Gus ortega,
He didnt cross anything to get these,the parents where regular and only one round ever came out with crest.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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Scott
2815 posts
Jan 24, 2010
9:00 AM
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Hector.. this is why the new guys need to be very careful about what lofts they allow birds in from.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3522 posts
Jan 24, 2010
10:37 AM
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Scott is this what you call peak in a roller?.
LaRon I check your profile but saw no email. you can email me at rmzija@hotmail.com
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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Hector Coya
610 posts
Jan 24, 2010
1:04 PM
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Scott,Gus got the parents from a very good source,You probably know him,,and the person he got them from said he never bred crest before
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Scott
2818 posts
Jan 24, 2010
1:05 PM
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Can't see these well enough Ralph .. but those are obvious crossess that can be seen with or without a crest ..the station.. neck and markings are a dead give away... the sad part are those that end up with these mutts due to be it hidden only to have that turd in the gene pool pop up.
If someone ended up with those thinking that they were real Birmingham Rollers... they got taken advantage of.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2010 1:14 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2338 posts
Jan 24, 2010
3:38 PM
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Hector
If those crested birds spin with quality and depth or throw birds that spin with quality and depth, I don't think I would be too worried about what the judge could see at 100 yards regarding station neck or markings.
If they performed to standard then they could earn the title of Birmingham Roller, and isn't that a quality that most of us appreciate?
Any adornment could have been carried as a recessive trait, or bred into the Roller many many generations back and rarely be seen. That is one reason we have the term "throwbacks."
But If those birds performed to standard and bred birds as good or better than themselves, some could call them nuggets of gold. So if they did all that, it is very possible that no one got taken advantage of and a fair trade has taken place.
The fact remains, Rollers in name only, no matter what their station, neck, color, pedigree or markings, that is not what makes us happy. Do they perform is the real question.
Cliff
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Hector Coya
611 posts
Jan 24, 2010
5:54 PM
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Scott,let me tell you,I have pure Redheaded hen line from Bob Scott,with great pedegree that have bigger and thiker necks than these,what makes them pure?there pedegree?
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Canspinners
336 posts
Jan 24, 2010
6:20 PM
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Hey Scott ,have you seen the pictures that were posted a while back ..at a Show in honor of Bill Pensom ..I am believe they were on display and they were pics of Pensoms birds . One of the pics has a "Cream Check Crest"
Not sure where the show was but rock and roll paul had them posted about a year on this site they were original photo taped on to a black backing .I have a copy of the pic but am unable to post
Hector were you at the show
Pigeon Pete answered the crest question . it could be a mutation rather than a cross?
I do know this Stans Rollers spun fast and hard according to a friend of mine . Never saw them in person
Hector do your crested birds spin
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Hector Coya
612 posts
Jan 24, 2010
7:09 PM
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canspinners,these birds roll as good as the best in my loft and as bad as the kull in my loft,like any family you will get both.
The once that are good,are great,The culls Some rolldown in i month of flying and some just never roll right.But the good once are nice to look at in the air.
But its fun to throw out a kit and people ask to buy a bird that is rolling its ass off and when it lands they are shocked to see it has a crest.
This crest is just a side project,i keep them more for the reaction i get from people when they see one roll/
My main family is from Bob Scott,which are Pensom line.
They are great spinners,Boy Bob Scott did all the work,i could never make them better, i just try to keep them as good,and thats hard enough to do.
Hector Coya
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Southplainsroller
24 posts
Jan 24, 2010
10:49 PM
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I mean no harm what so ever, and am on the side that I wouldnt want to mess with cross birds, but if the birds didn't have the crest I dont see how they dont have the station or markings of a birmingham. I dont want to start anything at all, I just really want to learn, and know. Can you go deeper into why it looks crossed? Isn't it just a blue check badge??
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Hector Coya
614 posts
Jan 25, 2010
2:16 PM
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This is their daughter,WOW you can definatly see the cross now,,LOL 
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fhtfire
2456 posts
Jan 25, 2010
3:13 PM
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This a photo of a Pensom bird taken by Chan Grover in Pensoms loft. It has a top notch...it is very small...not a full crown like the birds above....I believe Chan said that the bird had just a little top notch...He never had birds with the full crown....I am sure that is what He said. You can tell by the photo its looks like alfalfa from the little rascals..not the king of England..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
1376 posts
Jan 25, 2010
4:29 PM
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Paul - Chan was in England in 1949 the year before Bill came to the states? I think you are mistaken.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 4:33 PM
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Hector Coya
615 posts
Jan 25, 2010
5:51 PM
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So Chan was never at pensoms loft?In the US or England?
That picture could have been taken at any time,the point is that Pensom had a beginning of a crests,,LOL,,LOL
Hector Coya-
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3757
1377 posts
Jan 25, 2010
6:22 PM
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Hector - How can you make a point when you do not even have any historical proof that is his bird. CBG is Chans initials Lol
One of the tradegies is that people want so badly to make their point. I say BS as Pensom would have pulled its head off. Open loft again. I was waiting for someone to catch that as I new they were going to run off and say Pensom had a crest. I guess he used his band also. So many want to say Pensom had andulusians, white bars, Helmets etc. He did not and it is a shame that a man that has done more for the Birmingham roller than anyone else that so many want to bring his name down.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 7:04 PM
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Hector Coya
616 posts
Jan 25, 2010
7:13 PM
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In no way do i want to bring his name down,with all respect he was the master of our hobby, But if he did have a crest it wouldn't have made him bad,,LOL
Hector
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JMUrbon
877 posts
Jan 25, 2010
8:21 PM
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Not that I really giva crap if Pensom had a crest or not but that could very well have been a young bird that was pecked up on the head and was just healing. That phote is so grainy and unclear that nobody will really ever know. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Hector Coya
618 posts
Jan 25, 2010
8:40 PM
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It dosnt matter like you said,I never claimed that my crest where pure anything all i know is they Roll great,and i fly every year,in club and w/c f/f to show that they roll great,so anyone is welcome to come over and see.
Its just a hobby guys,Just have fun with your birds and lets let others enjoy theres.
hector Coya
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Southplainsroller
26 posts
Jan 25, 2010
11:21 PM
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for a new guy such as myself, yall are very confusing (no offense of course). I thought it was established that crest, peaked crest like scott mentioned, have been known to pop up from birmingham rollers? I have never seen one myself and I suspect the likely hood of me throwing an extreme recesssive trait such as that, that also could be a stock bird seems very slim, not saying that it couldnt happen ( trying very hard not to step on any toes lol). I am just really trying to figure out how to breed better birds, that are correct in every aspect to the true pure standard. This is why I asked why the crested bird that hector posted, looked like a cross based on his markings and station? The only thing that I could see questionable is the crest, but I thought that was established as possible to pop up? Reading these post has made me very nervous about what is a pure bird, and what isnt. I am not interested in how to breed good crested birds or produce them, or any other sort of anomalies, but what a true birmingham roller should look, and perform like. I am almost certain what I have is the real deal, but I want to know that I am heading in the right direction with all the hard work I have put in.
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fhtfire
2457 posts
Jan 25, 2010
11:44 PM
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3757,
Like I said, I could be mistaken. We talked for hours and I tried to remember everything...but after awhile I was getting so much information that I cant remember certain parts of our conversation...LOL...So that may be true..he may have said it about a bird before or after this picture.
But he did say that pensom had a crest pop up hear and there..but again..I could be mistaken.
I know very little of the history of the roller..only what I have read in a few books..I take it all with a grain of salt. But I really dont know much about the famous band numbers and pigeons from the past. I just do the here and now....You will never see me over step my bounds on a subject that I am not very educated about.....anyway...rock and ROLL
Paul
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
2239 posts
Jan 26, 2010
5:12 AM
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No Paul, you were not mistaken. After the NBRC convention in California ended, Cliff, Dave S. and I visited with Chan Grover in his residence. He showed us all the old memorabilia and pictures he has. My God…that was history in a box. Some of the old Pensom rollers in those pictures were crested and some with full crest. We talked about the same subject and hopefully Cliff can fill in. You guys can talk all the talk you want, but seeing is believing. End of story.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2010 5:16 AM
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Canspinners
337 posts
Jan 26, 2010
3:50 PM
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So whats the prognoses is the crest a mutation or a result as scott puts it
"the sad part are those that end up with these mutts due to be it hidden only to have that turd in the gene pool pop up."
I think its a mutation hianks everyone who responded and educated us on your experience and confirming that pensom had crested rollers.
Hector i am sure you love your crested birds .have you competed with them? and what were the results?
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Hector Coya
619 posts
Jan 26, 2010
5:00 PM
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Canspinner,they haven t answered your question,what makes the blue check badge that don't have a crest look like a cross?
Because it came out of the 2 crest on the top picture..
That supposedly those look like crosses because of the color..Hector Coya
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J_Star
2241 posts
Jan 27, 2010
5:06 AM
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LaRon, with all due respect, the way I see it is people on RPDC claim that if the birds are not Pensom’s or from the originals that Pensom brought to this country are considered mutts. But sadly enough I found out that Pensom was after and getting birds that showed excellent performance from all over the country and breeding them for their performance. That tells me Pensom’s stock was contaminated 70 years ago if the crests were not brought in for the old country. So, people claim only Pensom birds are the TRUE BR because we only wants to believe that and boost our stock to be superior to the next guy!!! Looks to me that Pensom was after the SPIN and would do anything to harness it and cultivate it no matter what was behind the bird…no matter what is the origin of the bird and we should follow that. I would’ve believed everything people on the site were saying about the mutt and the crest crap until I saw things first hand in my own eyes and WE questioned him in depth about the crests because of the crap we read on this forum. You said you visited Chan in 1991…but he got the box after Perkins (I think) died which was after that time. Please, if you got the time, go make a visit to him soon since he is up in the age.
I have no crests in my loft and never bred any but that doesn’t mean anything.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2010 9:55 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2358 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:08 AM
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Paul and Jay are correct about the photo album we saw at Chan's. Chan was stationed in England and spent time with Pensom every leave he could get at the time. He photographed Pensom and other guys and has a lot of orignal photos of Pensom AND his birds. Yes, there were yellows...and there were crests. He chuckles at the notions upheld by Pensom guys today....who were not there with Pensom like he was.....that Pensom's birds did not have these recessive traits. I don't think we can discount this factual historical evidence just because, today, it does not fit what some want to believe about that family of rollers.
Chan is an avid reader of RPDC:
I hope this finds you well and ornery as ever, Chan. Thanks for the time you shared with us. If I make back that way sonn, I will definitely make it a point to stop and visit again!
Your friend,
Cliff
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Missouri-Flyer
1685 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:24 AM
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boy,
wish I had a dollar for every argument the crest issue has caused in the few years I have been here..I could retire.
The question is.........What is a Birmingham Roller?..for me, and almost everyone here, it is the speed, style, kitting, and plain ol' fun and enjoyment of having these birds..
P.S...Insults?..in a public forum?..wow
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Missouri-Flyer
1686 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:25 AM
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And the topic was about Stan...Not Pensom or crests...Blame Hector for that 1...haha
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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3757
1381 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:29 AM
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Jay - When you stated many of you claim and addressed it to me the English that I speak means me included. If this is not what you meant I am man enough to apologize but please correct me if that is not what you were saying. And I aslo read it 5 times and that is what I and another professor who teaches English felt also. But if we are wrong I apoligize to you. I will delete my post but please change yours as it seem it is addressed to me. Those are the implications.
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2010 9:33 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2359 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:35 AM
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I'm still waitng to read Scott's reply to Southplainsroller as to what about the station, neck and markings of the birds posted characterize them as crosses. Smile
Cliff
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Missouri-Flyer
1687 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:37 AM
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Cliff,
I was waiting on the same. :)
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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J_Star
2245 posts
Jan 27, 2010
9:58 AM
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LaRon, my apologies if my post gave the impression that was an attack at you. I revisited my post and made changes to where I felt it could’ve given you the impression. You always have my respect and best regard. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2010 9:59 AM
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J_Star
2246 posts
Jan 27, 2010
10:04 AM
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Scott, you said “Stan showed him and Ron Kumro (they were judging up there ) what was being crossed for the crests years ago after Bill wouldn't let up on him as they were obvious crosses.”
Is this hearsay and people just PSing or there are evidence to prove that it is not. You know, that people say lots of crap when they gather just for the sake of conversation but when they are called upon it, they deny it took place.
Jay
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3757
1383 posts
Jan 27, 2010
10:09 AM
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Jay - Thanks. I respect you also.
I wanted to say a few things to all to clear some misconceptions that I have heard personally. I want all to know that my entire goal is to promote high velocity spinning and awesome style no matter what family one has and through as many means as necessarry. We need contest like the Old California classic, the one that Sal's club sponsors, kit competition and every aspect to make and promote the birds. It is not a one way street. You even need dialogue.
Also, it is true that I am a Pensomite but what that means is that this is the family of pigeons I love and have spent decades preserving and promoting. It does not mean I disrespect others or the lines others chose to breed. Also, as a teacher of research methodologies I try to get people to think and not just go by what one person states even myself. This hobby takes all of us to make it successful.
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2010 10:10 AM
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Canspinners
339 posts
Jan 27, 2010
3:57 PM
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3757 its not about you at all you have a logical and ethical way of asking your questions . I am strictly trying to find out the facts...in fact it was scotts statements that upset me .
I have been on this site for a while and have observed quite a bit thats why i remembered the crest post that rock and roll had a pic of.
Scott how could you call the crested birds turds well knowing that a well respected pigeon guy like Hecto Coya keeps crested birds and is on this site ....your have no factual information to back up your statement .
I think we need to keep an open mind and learn from each other ..starfire took so much s--- from you guys that i believe is the main reason he does not have birds right now ..and his web page is gone now as well as his birds . You know Stan was just a guy who loved the birds and the crests came out just the way hector has explained ..infact hector even posted a pic of the parents and still people insist they are mutts.
Stan is an old guy who lost his wife a few years ago he was just looking to hook up online to have some company but unfortunately individuals egotistical sides come out for whatever reason.
Jay thanks for clarifying thinks I really think you summed things up nicely in your post
I will have my friend spinnerball pint off this post and share it with Stan ..I am sure he will find some comfort Knowing he is understood and was not just beating his head against a wall ...some time s it feels like your pushing a ball up a hill
Re quoting your post well said and thanks and as BoB Brown said there are many pigeon men but few pigeon gentilemen
LaRon, with all due respect, the way I see it is people on RPDC claim that if the birds are not Pensom’s or from the originals that Pensom brought to this country are considered mutts. But sadly enough I found out that Pensom was after and getting birds that showed excellent performance from all over the country and breeding them for their performance. That tells me Pensom’s stock was contaminated 70 years ago if the crests were not brought in for the old country. So, people claim only Pensom birds are the TRUE BR because we only wants to believe that and boost our stock to be superior to the next guy!!! Looks to me that Pensom was after the SPIN and would do anything to harness it and cultivate it no matter what was behind the bird…no matter what is the origin of the bird and we should follow that. I would’ve believed everything people on the site were saying about the mutt and the crest crap until I saw things first hand in my own eyes and WE questioned him in depth about the crests because of the crap we read on this forum. You said you visited Chan in 1991…but he got the box after Perkins (I think) died which was after that time. Please, if you got the time, go make a visit to him soon since he is up in the age.
I have no crests in my loft and never bred any but that doesn’t mean anything.
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