Canspinners
342 posts
Feb 08, 2010
4:11 PM
|
I have this great female that regardless what male i put her to she produces great spinners. Has anyone every built a family around a female and if so how do i do it?
should i put son back to mother ?
|
rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
580 posts
Feb 08, 2010
6:17 PM
|
I have read how to do it but I do not have a great hen. Basically do the same thing as if it was a Cock bird. Only thing is it takes longer. You can not polygammy breed, other wise it is the same.
I would put the best son to the mother.
Some day I will have the great bird to work with. In the mean time a few good ones are nice to start with.
----------
RT Williams
|
richard.r
171 posts
Feb 08, 2010
6:53 PM
|
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
675 posts
Feb 08, 2010
6:55 PM
|
Canspinners.... How about that black hen from the 60,s 514? Could you say she was the start of a family? Or Pensoms Red Headed Hen 255?JDA
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1631 posts
Feb 08, 2010
6:59 PM
|
Start where the spin is. If a hen is your best bird then use the best young cock (son) and breed him back to his mother. Foster as many rounds as you can but allow her to raise every third or forth round. The key is only breed the very best. Next year, the best of each sex back to the parents. Now you are building a family you can call yours. Sticking to your plan is the battle, most will chicken out or just run out of patience. Changing the plan or bringing in new blood will only set you back. Everything you need is in your loft, build from there! :)
That's my plan and I'm sticking to it!! :)
Thom
|
Bill C
491 posts
Feb 08, 2010
7:10 PM
|
Dave Henderson did. He had a black self hen with green shinny feathers. He had his reasons. One of which he said Hens have less chromesomes or something. Joe Urban can tell you.
He might have an article on it at his web site if you google his name. I can also email him and ask if he has time to send you a reply. He has years of knowlege of rollers and developed his own family that many people enjoy today. I am not sure if he has birds anymore? I heard he was trying to get some of his old family back again. Bill C
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
4135 posts
Feb 08, 2010
7:19 PM
|
Black Rain I believe was a hen and the Gary Taylor birds are called the Black Hen family. Also the famous Pensom 514 was a hen.
------------------------------------------
"Left leaning communist pinko @#%* and Masturbator"
------------------------------------------
Nick Siders
|
richard.r
172 posts
Feb 08, 2010
7:23 PM
|
I started in 2002 with 378-1996 hen. i used a slew of cocks,and and a couple of out cross's on her.I air tested all of her offspring.mated 1/2 brothers 1/2 sisters- line breeding,Going on 8 years IF YOU ARE SERIOUS.5 years will tell you your percentages. GOOD LUCK!
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2010 7:30 PM
|
Canspinners
343 posts
Feb 09, 2010
1:12 AM
|
thanks everyone
|
Alohazona
681 posts
Feb 09, 2010
9:24 AM
|
My Bahala Na strain revolves around a blue check badge hen bred by Roger McVay,she is 266/425 based.
The Henderson line revolves around 1 hen....Aloha,Todd
|
Roll Down
88 posts
Feb 09, 2010
11:13 AM
|
Canspinners:
I have found it is just like in thoroughbred race horses, that if you use a very good stud, for example Northern Dancer and an ordinary nondescript mare, you will most times get little in return.
Now if you use the same good stud on a good ( stakes winning ) mare, you will get a good foal most times.
Works the same with rollers in my experience.
By all means use your good hen but don't waste her on an inferior cock.
GEO. D.
|
wannaroll
130 posts
Feb 09, 2010
2:55 PM
|
I have a nice black and white Hen. She is a mystery hen. I have not been able to find where it came from. A friend of mine strayed it in. He said he noticed a bird rolling 40' so he watched it come down and found out it wasn't even his. Anyway I have her now.
----------
Dave - Hesperia, CA.
(San Bernardino Mountain Spinners)
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2010 2:59 PM
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
678 posts
Feb 10, 2010
7:48 AM
|
Canspinners... This site if you look at the young birds Tony has up 4sale there pedigrees all have a bird in back of them she is 95- 644D.I have had very good roll with every thing I have raised out of my original 6 Ruby,s and all 6 have her very strong in the pedigrees.JDA
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1634 posts
Feb 10, 2010
8:33 AM
|
I would second 644D that is were following the spin took me.
Thom
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
679 posts
Feb 10, 2010
10:24 AM
|
Thom... You pretty smart fella lol. JDA
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1636 posts
Feb 10, 2010
12:13 PM
|
Hey Joe, You haven't talked to my wife! LOL 644D is grandmother to my foundation cock and foundation hen, the other hen I used was one I raised from another Ruby hen that had 644D in her also. Understand I'm not chasing the pedigrees. I'm chasing the spin and that's were it was.
Thom
|
black_hawk_down
212 posts
Feb 10, 2010
1:26 PM
|
with a hen it is very limited with the offspring you can produce because she may run out of eggs while on the other hand with a cock bird you can produce a lot bc sperm is cheap. -joe v.
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
681 posts
Feb 11, 2010
9:32 AM
|
Thom....That,s right the spin, Which the pedigree acts as a tool to get you there.
|
Scott
2858 posts
Feb 11, 2010
11:56 PM
|
How does a pedigree get you there Joe ?
Personaly I have seen them do far more harm than good where flying is comcerned.. that is only my opinion of course.
As for the hen question .. I have a hen that evolves around an entire line.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 11:58 PM
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1639 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:14 AM
|
Scott, I know you asked Joe this question but if you don't mind, I will throw in my thoughts.
A pedigree is only worth the integrity of the breeder. In this instance I'm not sure if we are chasing a pedigree or a particular bird. I have talked to several people about buying Tony's birds. First, I recommend them for a fancier just starting out or for a seasoned veteran. I have advised, when asked to request birds with 644D as close as possible on their pedigrees. Not that every bird from her will be equal but Tony has said and I have seen in my birds her progeny spin, with style and depth. I'm certian she is not the only bird Tony has of that quality but I know of this one for sure.
So what is a pedigree worth? One sheet of paper and the word of the breeder.
Thom
|
Scott
2859 posts
Feb 12, 2010
7:27 AM
|
Thom.. I won't write a pedigree out to anyone until a bird prooves it's worth as a solid stock bird on it's own merit.. they honestly just muddy up that evaluation.. they really only have value for a generation or so.. after that they are just interesting reads.
Before someone calls me on this.. a couple of years ago I wrote out pedigrees on a couple of donated auction birds.. I did it because I knew that they would draw a more money.
As for your point here .. are there pigeons here in my loft who's youngsters are the first that I would grab if needed .. absolutly.. but I still won't write a pedigree out until they proove themselfs in stock.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 7:28 AM
|
bman
748 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:09 AM
|
Scott, let me throw this one out. I have a hen that has been bred to three differnt cock birds & produced 10 youngsters. Eight of the ten I have stocked on performance (the best I have). Is there any point in asking for the ped now?
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1640 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:11 AM
|
Scott, I think we are on the same page. We just look at it differently. I also agree that past a few generations a pedigree is worthless. For a pedigree to have any meaning the buyer must have the input and trust the integrity of the breeder or it is just a pretty piece of paper. I do give pedigrees. My birds are banded with my name and I keep immaculate records. The point is, am I trustworthy? Even if you think I am, I can not guarantee anything but the accuracy of those records. Each fancier will manage their birds differently therefore the results will vary. I will help with input from my experience's but it's still in the hands of the breeder. I respect your point and place little value in a pedigree for the pedigree's existence but I do think they have a limited value.
With Respect,
Thom
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
684 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:13 AM
|
Scott... Get over your self! I could care what you thank about anything that has to do with rollers.But As my post said to Thom,pedigree,s act as a tool in breeding and how close in future breeding.JDA
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 8:29 AM
|
diamondrollers
378 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:30 AM
|
My family of birds was built off 1 hen on 4 cocks it took a while but i am happy. I'am working on taking the best two sides of my family
sal
|
Scott
2860 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:43 AM
|
Absolutly Ron .. you have a bird that is showing real value.. such birds don't come along every day.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
Scott
2861 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:48 AM
|
JDA .. would you like to pit your birds against mine for the fun of it ? Lets see how your breeding do principles do where the rubber meets the road.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 8:54 AM
|
Alohazona
684 posts
Feb 12, 2010
8:56 AM
|
Joe,you and Thom are 100% right,and are smart enough to know that a pedigree is a tool and a piece of paper....Aloha,Todd
|
Alohazona
685 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:03 AM
|
Scott,you move your boundry rock as you see fit.The rudder of your boat is at the front as well as the back,the bit and bridle awaits you.....Aloha,Todd
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
685 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:19 AM
|
Todd...Thank You.JDA
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3897 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:24 AM
|
LOL, for a few, its always about "mine is bigger than yours" schoolyard thinking. I heard no claiming better birds than someone else in this thread. Those who want to compete have ample opportunity to fly locally or in the national fly or world cup comps.
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3898 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:26 AM
|
I remember the last time I saw 644, I had been here in MO for about 6 months when she got out of the hen pen and flew almost straight north. (I wish I could say she was spinning 60' as she went over the horizon, but she just went in circles as she got further and further away. Sad Day for me! sniff)
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
686 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:41 AM
|
Tony...Thanks.JDA
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1641 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:48 AM
|
Tony, That indeed was a sad day. I hope you have a daughter from her that is as good as she produced but knowing you. :) You let them all go! :( I have a granddaughter and a grandson, that you sent. YEA for me!! Over looking any aspect is foolish, as is placing too much value on any one part.
Take care, my friend
Thom
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 9:49 AM
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
688 posts
Feb 12, 2010
9:56 AM
|
Thom... check the pedigree,s on all five he has up for sale now, Every one of them has 644D in there background,Proof he has lots out of her and of her value in the Ruby line,But you know that.(: P.S Correction all three he has up for sale,Two more sold.JDA
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 10:00 AM
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1642 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:07 AM
|
Joe, I would buy the other three, but I'm broke! :( Hey wait! I'll just raise a few for myself! :)
Thom
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
689 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:16 AM
|
Thom...I thank you and I have all that we need to work with. Thom send me your email please. JDA
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1643 posts
Feb 12, 2010
10:30 AM
|
Joe, flycontroline@yahoo.com
Thom
|
Scott
2863 posts
Feb 12, 2010
3:26 PM
|
You completly lost me Todd .. but I'm sure that it has special meaning.
(Scott,you move your boundry rock as you see fit.The rudder of your boat is at the front as well as the back,the bit and bridle awaits you.....Aloha,Todd )
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
|
Scott
2864 posts
Feb 12, 2010
3:41 PM
|
Is a pedigree a tool.. or is it only a crutch where the stock loft is concerned ?
I remember when it was a crutch for myself as I had nothing else to go by due to a my lack of understanding.. I might as well just tossed them in the loft to pair up on their own.
These days there are far more important issues to take into considerstion on stocking and pairing birds than what is on paper.. just a thought from a outsider.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 4:51 PM
|
JMUrbon
900 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:47 PM
|
Good post Scott, I have at least for the last 8 or 9 years went much more by gut feeling, performance and charachter than by what the paper says. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 5:01 PM
|
Scott
2866 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:53 PM
|
Exactly Joe.. what I write on this stuff is from "MY" own mistakes
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 4:57 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3899 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:54 PM
|
Hey Scott and Joe, I think that what these guys are actually saying is that 644 and her offspring are capable of producing some damn good birds. I really am not seeing them inferring much more than that. Be careful about projecting...LOL
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
|
Scott
2867 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:56 PM
|
Tony.. a pigeon is just a pigeon that has no value until it has prooven itself to have value..I am reminded of this every time I cull one out of my best... that is our point.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 4:58 PM
|
JMUrbon
901 posts
Feb 12, 2010
4:58 PM
|
I see that Tony and didnt take what Joe or Thom were saying as anything different. I dont know Thom but I have known Joe for many years annd actually remember watching kits at Joes house while I was still riding a bike. Joe knows he has my repect. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1644 posts
Feb 12, 2010
5:18 PM
|
Hey all, I stopped naming my birds and I don't pay much attention to history. Today decides who breeds and who stays in the kit, sometimes who dies but it would be stupid not to track linage. I'm working my ass off trying to breed the best birds and I will question any standard mine or yours. When unsolicited testimony confirms my observations and the same appears in my records, I'm going to pay attention.
Tony's post is dead on, I'm just tracking and recording potential. A pedigree for me is a long term record.
Thom
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 5:42 PM
|
Scott
2868 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:00 PM
|
Thom.. I know what you are doing as we have talked about it before .. what is written here is nothing but an exercise that got off of your original topic.
I am assuming that you asked the question on a hen line because you probably heard that cock lines are the the only right way.. the thing about hen or cock lines is that if they are any good before long the line turns another direction where another bird or birds become the focus whether it be hen or cock and new foundations spring up and the originial bird just becomes a pleasant memory.
The thing is if such a bird hasn't put others in your hands just as good or better to become new foundation than it is a line that needs eliminated. (not at all saying this is the case)
The problem is some can't let go of that dead pigeon and the focus stays on such a bird for what ever reason instead of it's prodigy.
Only as an example.. what about the youngsters off of 644 .. why aren't we talking about their producing abilities ? or the grand children ? great grand children ? and the lines being kicked off of these.
----------
Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 6:01 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3900 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:06 PM
|
Hey Scott, you are absolutely correct, but value isn't always obvious. Even pigeon shit has value if one is enterprising enough to understand its value and learn how to package it. I once sold 2.5lbs of the stuff for $5 to a gardener and plan to do much more of it this spring. Uncovering value is a sign of an enterprising mind.
----------
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Your Own Custom Telephone # Bands
|
Canspinners
345 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:19 PM
|
guys i do not know the back ground or pedigree of the hen but what i do know is that off two males her young are consistanly good spinners so lets say i put her to an third male this year and i get the same result off the young, How should i breed to keep the traits of the mother stronger in the family ?
thom you suggested i put sons back to her then what?
|
Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
1645 posts
Feb 12, 2010
6:19 PM
|
Scott, It was not my question, it was Canspinner's. I am talking about the progeny from 644D. In my birds she was their grandmother in both my foundation cock and foundation hen. This is not some mythical Phoenix, 644D is real time and a strong influence in my loft. My lines are so tight recent history have very few band numbers, all of which are direct descendants of 644D. The progeny from this foundation pair are producing very good rollers. Are they the best? No, I'm working on that, but the are damn fine birds with good style, depth and speed. They also have good handling characteristics. First, foremost and lastly, I follow the spin, period! I'm to darned old and ornery to play any reindeer games, so I'm not the least bit interested in flying comp. but you would be welcome to stand under my birds and see for yourself if the spin or not.
Thom
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2010 6:20 PM
|
