rollerpigeon1963
16 posts
Aug 23, 2004
7:26 PM
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Tony,
You made a poll of roller guys that you must think are number one. But two of them haven't done anything for the hobby except sell birds and write a book.
What are you calling number no#1. In competition or in doing something for the hobby? Can you tell me what each of these fellas has done to get a poll position? I'm just wondering. I have had dealing's with a few guys on your poll. And have lost a few thousand dollars. Just asking and like to hear!
Thanks Brian Middaugh
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
139 posts
Aug 23, 2004
7:44 PM
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Hello Brian, this is from a post from the originator of the thread who asked: "Who Is # 1 Now"? After some posts naming specific individuals, I thought, let the "voter" decide. Here is the post I placed previous to the poll to get it going...
"Hello All, let's do a non-scientific poll to find out...
First, let's nominate an individual, a person must second it. (You must also be a member of the discussion board so sign up its free and give us your name or it won't count, please)
Second, state 1 or 2 things about that person that makes them a great.
Once I have a sufficient number posted (say 7 to 10 persons), I will put up a poll that all visitors can vote on. And will settle the matter for at least the visitors to this site! LOL
It could turn into a popularity contest and all we find out is who has gotten thier name out there more often than the others!LOL Thanks for participating! FLY ON! Tony Chavarria"
So Brian, this is a very informal, unscientific poll for the visitors to the site to vote for the fun of it.
When you say you have lost thousands of dollars, how did this happen?
Did you vote? (I'm sure some voted early and often. lol)
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Aug 23, 2004 9:00 PM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
140 posts
Aug 23, 2004
8:59 PM
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All, like I said, it may just come down to a popularity contest. Perhaps a better test of the best would be to ask which family is in more lofts??
Perhaps this would minimize the undeserving "authors" who have made a name for themselves? lol
Perhaps we could have a poll for them as to which book has been the most help and enjoyable to read? hmmmmm
For anyone to think that a "last" place finish somehow means the person does not have good birds is forgetting the fact that most breeders did not even get nominated!
In any event, to have made it to the poll is indicative that these persons have made a difference to some. FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mother lode lofts
100 posts
Aug 23, 2004
9:17 PM
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A few Thousand,c'mon LOL LOL Hey Brian remember when I came back from visiting the guys in Hawaii and you gave me such a hard time for not stopping that guy from wasting more money with you know who LOL,hey not only did I do my part but I sent 4 pair over there because you kept hammering me about it LOL,now tell the story you bum so others don't make the same mistake.
Scott
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rollerpigeon1963
17 posts
Aug 24, 2004
6:41 PM
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Ok Scott,
Here it is! Back in 1996 I wanted to get some very good birds. So I called on a few people and they didn't have anything at the time. So I was wondering where I could get some good birds. Because what I had wasn't good enough in my eyes. My good buddy is a vietnam vet and he just had bought some birds from Mr. X. I went down and looked at them and he told me what he paided for them. Man!!! $500.00 each and the were champions in every way.He had pedigrees dating back to the 60's. So my buddy had them for a couple of months and ran into so bad luck. He needed a large number of cash to keep his house or get enough money to keep his head above water.
So he offered me the birds he bought from Mr. X for 5 grand. So I thought this was my chance to get some good birds. So I bought them and thought I was on my way as the next W/C Champion.
I had the birds for a few weeks and I wanted to find out more about this family. So I called aroung the country and kept coming back to Mr. Y. So I called Mr. Y and talked to him for hours. He asked me what birds did I buy from Mr. X and I told him. He said no way! that someone else had that bird and I said your full of crap I have the pedigrees to prove it. So he said photo copy them and send them to him in the mail. Because at that time he didn't have a computer and snail mail was the next best way to send the pedigrees. So I copied them and took off for the Post Office and sent them next day air. Well the next day he called me and said that out of the pedigrees there were 5 or 6 people with some of the birds I had. By name and not by the leg band numbers. Well the birds I had, had etched numbers on there leg band. And I started to get worried.
I wanted to find out what was going on. So I finally got the number to Mr. X. I called Mr. X and asked him about the birds he sent to my buddy. I asked him were the pedigrees correct and what is the deal about everyone else with the same birds I had. And all he could do is call me an a$$holo. And slammed the phone down in my ear. Boy was I ticked off!!!!! So I called Mr. Y and he said I can't believe he done that so he called and he wouldn't talk to him. I told Mr. Y I was going out and kill everyone of the birds. he said no don't kill them he wanted to trade me some of his for some of the birds I had! I said well at least I could get some birds that might be a little better. Well to make the long story short, the birds I traded him wouldn't even make a good foster pair in my loft. Mr X and Mr Y never flew a bird in any competition. They never done anything that I can remember for the hobby. So after that I never bought anything that I never seen in the air. But I did buy from someone who I knew were honest. So the best judge is your own eyes and your wallet is your limit.
There you go Scott.
Your good friend Brian Middaugh
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
7:11 PM
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Brian that was a very interesting story and without exposing who Mr. X and Mr. Y are I would like to know if the initials of the men are DS and TH?
If so then I am going to clear out my entire loft and fill it with a different family.
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Mother lode lofts
106 posts
Aug 24, 2004
8:11 PM
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Brian actually just a while back I was talking to someone that was elected to a very high spot in the NBRC and there was a move to remove these adds out of the NBRC. Lets face it we all know who they are and what they are doing to the new comers to the sport that are in search of birds.
From what I understand it got shot down though. Yea those peds are impresive though LOL and these type of guys are where the term "pedigree" breeder came from. So what did he do with those birds that you sent him ? You don't think that he sold them without impressive pedigree's do you ? those pedigree's are the only sales pitch that he has.
I talked to a guys a couple of years ago that was at his place and Mr. X s wife told him that he hasn't flown any pigeons in years. His Brother in-law in Texas was doing exactly the same thing and just recently sold out. He Had 40 pairs of breeders but never flew. In fact most the guys in Texas never knew him. Both of them have done nothing but run pigeon breeding factorys.
This guy in Hawaii had no roll with qaulity to speak of with birds pushing two years old and when he asked about it he was told about some bird great bird that Pensom had that didn't roll till three years old and that he just needed more patiance LOL. Yea thats great for the sport.
Scott
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 24, 2004
8:54 PM
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Scott thanks to your post I've figured out who you are talking about. Dog gone if I haven't been had. You are no doubt talking about the old guy up in Washington State. I'm getting rid of every one of those #@$!! birds. Crap!
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Mother lode lofts
107 posts
Aug 24, 2004
9:22 PM
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E- mail me privatly and lets talk anom.
motherlodelofts@netzero.com
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Anonymous
Guest
Aug 25, 2004
1:01 PM
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Scott I will contact you after I get over the embarassment of falling for the pedigree trick. I should have known better. I read a few negative posts here and there about those two guys and figured it was just sour grapes. All totaled I have wasted a little over a yearand a half and about $1,000 for the birds. To make matters worse I even sold a few thinking they were tops. Damn!!
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rollerpigeon1963
18 posts
Aug 25, 2004
5:40 PM
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Anon,
I didn't write this for anyone to kill all there birds. I wrote this to let people know, if they want performance type rollers and want something good. They would have to take a trip out of there own back yard. I strongly suggest that if you are looking for performance type rollers PLEASE! if at all possible go and watch them. Let your own eyes be the judge. Now I know that there is times where is it impossible for you to go and watch the birds. Well then you have to do the next best thing. Read the NBRC, Read as much as possible on sites like this one. Get on a few list {email groups} and read who is doing what. Get to know the guys that fly rollers and not ones that just have them and want to sell them for a profit.
I have been very luck to judge a few areas birds. From the World Cup regional to the State, local flys. I have seen many birds and I have a good idea what I like whan I see it in the air. I have seen a couple of World Cup flies that won the World Cup title.
But I will say this I have never been to Scott Campbells home and I will make it there one day. But I know that Scott has the same idea as I do. On what we like to see in the air. And last spring Scott sent me a nice hen that I took straight to the brood loft. because I have know him for about 3 years. We have never met but we have talked on the phone a few time. And many night we talked in the chatroom of the NBRC. That is how I really got to meet Scott.
Well getting side tracked, I can't say enough how much it takes to learn these little birds and then you have to know and trust the guy your getting them from.
So Anon please don't cull your birds till you give them a chance!! and then if they don't live up to level then you can cull.
Thanks for listening to me and I wish you all the best of luck this coming season.
Your good friend Brian Middaugh
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
162 posts
Aug 25, 2004
8:47 PM
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Well said Brian.
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K.Naylor
1 post
Aug 27, 2004
3:09 PM
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Scott, I agree ther seems to be a few guys on the poll that do not fly. Doesn't it say "who is #1 now?" What about KGB, Bijker. And if they don't have to fly why aren't Kiser and Borges on there?
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
149 posts
Aug 27, 2004
3:17 PM
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Sorry, no one nominated them...remember, this is just in fun fellas! lol We can do this again more properly and focus things on performnace only and leave it to guys who fly comp at this time...??? FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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K.Naylor
4 posts
Aug 27, 2004
3:22 PM
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I understand Tony. The way the poll reads is who is number one now and the guys that are one the poll are not even in the same catagory of roller breeders. Not sure how they can compare guys that have flown comp against guys that have never flown. This is my first day on the site and just giving my two cents. Kevin
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Mother lode lofts
130 posts
Aug 27, 2004
3:22 PM
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Or how about a popularity contest Tony , I would go far about now LOL LOL LOL
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K.Naylor
9 posts
Sep 01, 2004
9:21 AM
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Scott, you are number one in my book!!
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stephena310
1 post
Oct 30, 2005
5:20 PM
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I find all this discussion amusing, and a bit confusing, as who really cares about who is #1 in the breed? There are many levels in which someone (a breeder) can be clasified.
Number 1 in competition?
Number 1 in breeding?
Number 1 in being an "expert" on the breed", or the sport, or what?
Don't get me wrong...it is all O.K., it just needs to be better defined!
Also, I am 53 years old and have been involved in the breed off and on over the years (usually because of my profession, travel, etc.) ...at the moment I do not have any birds.....BUT.....I purchased my first pair from Bill Pensom - at the time he charged $20.00 per bird (young only - and that was a lot of money in those days considering an average mortgage payment was $200.00 a month). I saved for almost a year, wrote him, made an appointment and was driven out to his home in Canoga Park to watch them fly and "pick them out of the sky". I was 12 years old at the time....and Bill chose them for me and gave me two for the price of one ! He was a great guy...and I bought them from him because he was "THE EXPERT"!
Years later, when I decided to get back into the hobby, and after watching dozens of "flys" and seeing everyone's birds in LA, I tracked Thomas Hatcher down....and eventually purchased three pair from him. They were different from all the other birds I had seen in all the LA lofts, they were all "old" and all bred "spinners".
I found Thom's advice and expertise in feeding, training, breeding and managing the birds, without question, the best "based on fact" advice I have received to date!
Over the years, he gave me a number of other birds (all shipped at his expense - and for free !) and all were excellent birds. All bred consistantly performing birds...Again, I have no complaints. I also found it quite interesting, that when I left some of my breeders with a well-know LA breeder for "safe keeping" for a few months, the number of other breeders who paid him to "pump" my hens, was pathetic...Had I know? !
And I have to take offence to any references to him as a "feather merchant"! I think Thom is an extremely smart business man....extremely competitive and strives for excellence, not just in regard to others, but in regard to himself....which is what we should all be trying to do!
I have found all his ideas on the birds to be "solid", and have always benefited from them.
I think his befrending of Stan Plona, and being "willed" a number of his birds, upset a lot of the "roller pigeon hierchy" and writing the books, just pissed even more people off. Why.....jealousy! Unfortunately there seems to be quite a bit of it in this hobby. Unfortunately everyone is looking for the "short cut" to the "winner's circle"...!
I think you will find that a lot of people in the hobby that don't like Thom Hatcher, have never met or spoken to him for any length of time. I also think that many of those who don't like him, disagree with his refusal to accept "hear say" and "myth" regarding rollers. He is not a "status quo" type of guy and if it is not based in "fact", or if you can't prove it to him with "fact", then you are looking for a heated debate. Some also just take everything "personally"!
Oh, I also wanted to say that Dick Stephens is a complete gentleman and has stood to preserve a number of "bloodlines" with in the breed...and should be recognized as such.
In closing....Pensom never competed, but he did eventually bring to america "competition rollers" that were not known for depth, but for frequescy. It was said that he wanted the fancy to see what real "competition rollers" looked like. It was my understanding that he (pensom) was looking more for consistant depth with form, instead of lots of "short full turns".
There are lots of great birds and breeders....many with very different ideas on how to get the best out of their birds. And we may not agree with all of them, but they all are worthy of respect, both a breeders and as human beings.
Peace,
stephen c. aristei
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Mongrel Lofts
65 posts
Oct 30, 2005
6:04 PM
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I think you would have to say Hiene Bijker is #1 in the world at this time. He has won the WC twice and rummor has it, Hiene almost had his third this year. Tom Hatcher, LOL.. Dick Stephens, LMAO.. Mongrel Lofts
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nicksiders
266 posts
Oct 30, 2005
7:15 PM
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Stephens and Hatcher are good guys............Hiene Bijker is the best flyer at this time in the world. There are 20 or 30 guys I would consider over Stephens and Hatcher.
I think you have been out of the loop awhile.
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rollzilla
5 posts
Nov 04, 2005
7:29 PM
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Tom Hatcher LMAO Dick Stevens LMFAO, Tom had some ok birds but he sold most by totally ridiculous pedigrees champion, champion etc. he didnt even know enough about genetics to even right these phony pieces of paper, and WROTE A BOOK? couldnt of done it with out a copier LOL, and Dick Stevens (another peddigree man)did he even fly? his only claim to fame is he was around with the old timers,And he can tell some whoppers cause there aint no one around to disclaim him, he couldnt even keep his old pensom family going and switched to the Hatcher birds,
Just had to get that off my chest
sorry if I offended anyone
Zilla
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knaylor
20 posts
Nov 04, 2005
7:33 PM
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Didn't offend me. Also love the name!!
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rollzilla
6 posts
Nov 05, 2005
8:13 PM
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I swear i can be such a dork, i never read the whole thread before commenting you guys been through all this over a year ago, ooops my bad, hey but how did i get my info ? like i said i can be a dork :(
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Alohazona
82 posts
Nov 06, 2005
10:25 AM
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Zilla,
Sounds to me like your concious is pokin at ya,as well it should,to perpetuate a post that is putting fine roller men in a negative light is ridiculous,and serves no purpose.Alot of the the guys who jumped on the band wagon know full well that these men, flew rollers everyday of their lives for decades,until their health would no longer let them enjoy the hobby.To think that they never flew good or Great birds for the enjoyment of others and themselves is nothing short of a LIE!!!
Tom Hatcher is and will be always be a kind and polite gentleman,as well as Dick Stephens and Roger McVay,period.
PEDIREES,are records printed on paper nothing more nothing less,either utilize it or don't.If they are worth nothing in your program,whats the issue,simply toss them in the rubbish can,problem solved.
If somebody[not you] is still sniveling over a bad deal over TEN YEARS AGO,wow that is a long time to carry resent,we've all had our bad deals,LIFE ya know.
The bottom line...fly and feed what you like,if a family of birds dont workout,find another,if you have worked with its orginater,to get what your looking for.These days,theres alot of throw this or that away in society,because things don't happen overnight.
Our clubs president contacted me in a general post saying some of the birds in our clubs first futurity fly are showing the GOODS,some of my birds being a part of that.I have no problem saying they are of the Hatcher bloodline.
I've been a poster here for a while now,and when SAW THIS THREAD keep poppin up,I felt it deserved a positive opinion.If others don't agree ,I'm fine with that,ALOHA,Todd
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nicksiders
277 posts
Nov 06, 2005
1:04 PM
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The discussion here is who is currently the best flyer. Tom Hatcher is not currently flying nor is Dick Stephens (in competition that is). Hiene is currently flying in competition and usually kicks everyone's butt. He is number one right now.
Hatcher birds and Dick Stephens bird bloodlines is not the issue.
I have Hatcher and Stephens bloodlines in my birds and I am happy with them. I will be competing in 2006 and see how well they do. After observing some damn good kits in Northern California I should have a respectable showing, but we will see on fly day.
The Hatcher/Stephens bloodlines do as well as my Palona, Smith, amd Norwood bloodlines and a heck of a lot better than my Jac's.
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Velo99
154 posts
Nov 11, 2005
6:19 PM
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For me it is easy. No nominations and a constant rotation of excellent fanciers who have excelled in both breeding and competetion. Most of the fellows listed here also have a reputation for being generous as well.
Number one is in the NBRC book listed in the number one position on the list on the master flyer page.
MTC YITS
V99
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George Ruiz
79 posts
Nov 24, 2005
2:08 PM
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Well I guess there's no doubt who the best trainer is .
Don Oullette our first TRIPLE CROWN WINNER (Fall Fly,World Cup , and 11 bird Fall Fly )
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Nov 24, 2005 2:10 PM
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kcfirl
1 post
Nov 26, 2005
9:15 AM
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Heine Bijker should be ranked right behind Don O. in my opinion. The guys consistently in the top couple of spots in the WC year in and year out.
Ken Firl
PS.
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Velo99
169 posts
Nov 27, 2005
5:58 AM
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George,
When you spoke of Mr Oulette being the triple crown champion as well as the best trainer. I feel that is a bit of an understatement. To achieve the plateau that Don has takes more than just training a kit.
Where did he get the kit(s)? He bred them, raised the chicks,trained them and picked out the best ones. How many years does it take to get there? How many chicks? How many times over the years has Don cussed a hawk that made off with his best squeak? I for one have experienced the disappointment of a "special" squeak being a big fat zero.
There are so many discouraging things that can happen to a fancier over the course of this venture it is almost unreal that a single individual could achieve such a momentous peak.
Since this is America I will change my vote to Mr Oulette for the Number One slot.
Great job Mr O. and congrats!!
YITS
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Nov 27, 2005 5:59 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
86 posts
Nov 27, 2005
11:59 AM
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Nobody talks about Mr. Parker.....you think there is a reason?
He is too quiet.......or is he too dark?
Nick,
Where in the heck did you come up with this?? Robert Parker is a great guy personally and yes I know him.. Robert is a quite guy on these list and has been going through some stuff personally and out of flying for a while. The color of his skin has no more to do with these votes, than the fact that Clay Hoyle or Joe Emberton are not on the list to be voted for, because they are white.. Man Nick, that was offensive and dumb.. In my honest opinion. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Nov 27, 2005 2:29 PM
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motherlodelofts
507 posts
Nov 27, 2005
1:21 PM
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C'mon Nick , is that called for !!!!!!!
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 27, 2005 1:22 PM
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Velo99
170 posts
Nov 27, 2005
5:06 PM
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Gee is there something wrong with having a tan?
V99
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nicksiders
306 posts
Nov 27, 2005
7:02 PM
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Guys you are right........The statement I made was not called for and it was stupid. I am sometimes over sensitive about certian things and I need to check my mouth.
I opologize to all that are concern and the good people who frequent this site.
Sincerely..................nick
Mr. Parker does not need my help to boost his presents in this sport and I especially opologize to him.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Nov 27, 2005 7:08 PM
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Ceds
11 posts
Nov 27, 2005
11:21 PM
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Most definately,Heine Bijker.
His record speaks for it self.
2005 He came 2nd in the World Cup
2003 He came 7th in the World Cup
2001 He came 1st in the World Cup
1999 He came 1st in the World Cup
1998 He came 3rd in the World Cup
Heine won the World Cup twice and no one else there after accept Monty.
Just my opinion
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Ceds
12 posts
Nov 27, 2005
11:23 PM
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Most definately,Heine Bijker.
His record speaks for it self.
2005 He came 2nd in the World Cup
2003 He came 7th in the World Cup
2001 He came 1st in the World Cup
1999 He came 1st in the World Cup
1998 He came 3rd in the World Cup
Heine won the World Cup twice and no one else there after accept Monty.
Just my opinion
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siddiqir
109 posts
Dec 07, 2005
12:54 PM
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Heine Bijker is number one. Saw his kit in video awesome birds.
Last Edited by siddiqir on Dec 12, 2005 8:18 AM
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elopez
453 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:33 PM
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This was some good reading...
I wonder if the veiws have changed since then? now that it's 2008.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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SpinCityRollers
71 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:40 PM
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I simply dont know !
I think Heine Got it wish they would start to video tape his flys so we could actually see these thosand of points
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 12:42 PM
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kcfirl
260 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:53 PM
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Who is #1?
If the question is who is the number one Birmingham Roller kit flyerin the world, then the answer seems clear - it is without a doubt Henie Bijker judging from the only competition where one judge goes around the world and watches all the finalists kits.
If the question is a different one, such as who is th number one breeder of Birmoingham Rollers, or who has the fastest or deepest birmingham rollers, then the answer is certainly different.
I have an idea who is the best breeder of Birmingham rollers judging from the number of flyers in the finals of the WC year in and year out.
Who is it?
:-)
Ken Firl
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2476 posts
Feb 01, 2009
8:33 AM
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?
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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j .wanless
621 posts
Feb 01, 2009
9:16 AM
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hi all
at last right at the end of these posts have i seen
a worthwhile name to the question which started this post.heine biker.because the only reason that poor monty was classed as the top flyer was because he won the w/c 3 times. SO AS HEINE so like ken said if thats what you look at to be the top flyer theres only 1 person in the world that as equelled it + thats heine.or do you have to be from the usa or canada to be mentioned on this post,
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2447 posts
Feb 01, 2009
10:23 AM
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Very impressive record I would think>
2005 He came 2nd in the World Cup
2003 He came 7th in the World Cup
2001 He came 1st in the World Cup
1999 He came 1st in the World Cup
1998 He came 3rd in the World Cup
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Ralph
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AK-Roller Loft
90 posts
Feb 01, 2009
11:37 AM
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Very Interesting, The World Cup, by having the best competition records you can be #1. Wow, congratulations to all the winners. Good luck!
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Ak
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rollem
45 posts
Feb 01, 2009
3:39 PM
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When you talk about the best of all time or no 1 it depends on where your from. When i was a young boy i used to mow lawns for money to buy rollers from an old man named worley willis had raised and bread rollers for 50 + years this was 38 years ago and as my memory serves me when he was flying his birds it was a sky full of amazement they all rolled long and deep something i havent been able to find at any bodys loft that i have visited in the last 5 years since i have gotten back into rollers, to me this guy was a no 1 and i cant find any of his birds dont know where they ended up if any where sad!!!!!!!!
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One of the few Virginia ROLLER BOYS
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macsrollers
15 posts
Feb 02, 2009
7:49 PM
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Heine Bijker and Don Ouellette get my vote at this time,based on the big fly results, but there are a number of top guys capable of being the best. I don't see Tim Decker on the list. He has been the most consistent year in and out by placing in the top 10 almost every time. I hope things fall in place for him and he gets the big win he deserves. In my opinion, Monty is still #1 until someone surpasses remarkable fly record. Legends don't die, they live on and on. Sincerely, Don M. Mac's Rollers
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Alohazona
554 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:01 AM
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From here on out,Rich Hayes will be dominating all the major flys here in the USA.He's retired,100% focused on winning all the flys that come his way.He also has his bloodline of birds dialed in to roll hard everytime they are put up,no need for feed tweaking,good weather,etc.,they are bred that way.Rich is hands down the man to beat![It needed to be said]....Aloha,Todd
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birdman
694 posts
Feb 03, 2009
9:06 AM
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Todd,
Don't forget, Rick Mee is also retired now and is going to be a tough competitor in every fly.
Russ
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Flipmode
350 posts
Feb 03, 2009
2:08 PM
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Heine Bijker won the World Cup in 2007 too.
2005 He came 2nd in the World Cup
2003 He came 7th in the World Cup
2001 He came 1st in the World Cup
1999 He came 1st in the World Cup
1998 He came 3rd in the World Cup
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pigeon pete
104 posts
Feb 03, 2009
4:11 PM
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Heine gets my vote,
Pete
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Alohazona
555 posts
Feb 03, 2009
7:52 PM
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Russ,I was thinkin' Rick M. as soon as I posted my thoughts on Rich,had to go to work,LOL.
BTW,that Hatcher cock you sent out a few years back is behind just about every thing I'm breeding now.It mixed in with the Mcvays outstanding,Mahalo's
Hey flipmode,how's your breeding season going,have a kit bred yet?
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