Alan Bliven
17 posts
Oct 26, 2004
11:00 AM
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I've seen where many believe the color rollers are created by crossing into other breeds. If so, what breeds do they use? How bad does it ruin the roll gene?
Thanks,
Alan
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K.Naylor
36 posts
Oct 26, 2004
1:33 PM
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Alan, by crossing them th offspring might still roll, but you would no longer have rollers. You would have crosses. This is a topic that goes round and round. I believe that you can breed your birds how ever you want but when you cross them you can no longer call them rollers. Most guys that have done this are not competitive at all. My question is why would you want to cross them?
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spintight
34 posts
Oct 26, 2004
8:12 PM
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well as you can imagine whatever pigeon has some of the qualities they are looking for is the bird(s) they will use to cross, of course they have to have a similar body structure. The crests I have seen in photo's lead me to believe maybe an archangel or even another tumbler breed was used. Komono Tumbler maybe in some.
But as Kevin says WHY would you want to creat something that is NO LONGER a roller? it will take many generations to get them anywhere close to becoming an aerial bird again.
hey are you the guy that lived in the Bakersfield area and used to bring the smith birds in to the LA area to sell at a well known feed store there? I recall hearing the Belvin's name from a friend of mine up here who came from Palmdale.
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Alan Bliven
19 posts
Oct 26, 2004
9:09 PM
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Yes, I agree. I guess they do it to create these fancy colors. I'm curious as to what breeds they cross the rollers with to do it. I'd like to hear from someone who actively does it. The only thing I've found out so far is one fellow is using racing homers. But I don't know if they are to "improve" the roller's colors or the homer's colors. But you'd sure be taking a lot of big steps backwards by crossing them with a homer. But then hey, maybe they want a homer that will flip as he finds his way home across town. ;)
If I was to breed for color I'd selectively breed good rolling rollers themselves, not cross them with other breeds.
If you want a crested roller, the Russians already have one. It's called Baku Boinije (Russian crack tumbler) http://rzhev.tripod.com/boinije/baku/baku.html/ They spin forwards and upwards instead of backwards and downwards and clap their wings very loudly when performing. They come in very nice colors as well. Mine are solid white with a solid red or black tail. Of course they never could compete with the B. Roller.
No, I have never lived in Bakersfield. I've lived in Tucson since 1979. There is a Jim Blevins who keeps birds but I don't know if he keeps rollers. And he's in Ohio. http://www.angelfire.com/id2/whitetails/
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
301 posts
Oct 26, 2004
11:45 PM
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Alan, usually if one seeks to influence his rollers with color genes not currently available in his flock or in the breed, that person would simply use whatever breed possesses what he wants. Some breeds have unique colorations such so that person would use a bird from that breed unless one that is more physically the same is available. I think you'll find that rollers and homers probably have been crossed the most to get whatever new colors were sought after. This is largely due to rollers and homers being the most popular pigeons kept. I have read where several of the color projects used homers that had the color of another breed but was a more suitable cross. I believe someone close to Turner once stated he used an andalusian homer to bring that color to the roller breed. If one crosses to another breed to bring whatever facet they are looking for, then succeeds and the birds roll, they are still rollers, just not considered Birmingham Rollers as many will adamantly make known. If it rolls it is a roller. If you yourself were interested in some unique color chances are you wouldn't have to cross to another breed these days as many of already done the work, at least in the color department. If they roll worth a darn would be something entirely different. LOL. By the way I talked with Dal Stone last weekend and he showed the first frill stencil rollers I have ever seen. Amazing color. Took him 30 years to get there he said. Chances are the birds probably won't roll very good if at all since in all this time the selection was for color instead of the roll.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
20 posts
Oct 27, 2004
1:38 AM
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I really don't see the point of creating all these fancy colored rollers. Nor do I see the point of show rollers. It's OK to be interested in exotic color schemes but why try and place them on rollers? There's many established breeds that already have these colors, why not just work with them and leave the roller alone.
The same with the show roller. IMHO it's an ugly looking perverted version of a roller. There's a lot of nice looking other show breeds, why mess with the roller?
Maybe they should make the Show Roller, the Color Roller and the Birmingham Roller three different breeds. I keep Flying Oriental Rollers and the NPA now has made the FOR and the show Oriental Roller two separate breeds, with two separate standards. That means our birds can compete in the show ring as well as in the air, like it used to be with the Birmingham Roller.
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STARFIRE
51 posts
Oct 28, 2004
5:04 PM
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Hey Guys;
I was reading about your thoughts on color and crossed rollers.When a bird rolls good Or spins good even if it is crossed with something ,isn't it still a roller?A homer is not a roller a tumbler is not a roller ,it's a tumbler because it tumbles.Atippler is not a roller because it does't roll.So wouldn't it be reasonable to call any bird that has a quality roll a roller?My hat is off to anyone that can cross anything to a roller and get a good roll from it.It will take years and years and is almost impossible to get a good roll from a crossed roller.If you read the old articles they say all manner of breeds were crossed to get the rollers we have today.Tipplers were bred into them in England to get the rollers the had at the time to stay up flying.they were too frequent.They used west of england tumblers(big boots) to try to improve the roll and to give the roller boots.and on and on.No one knows how many breeds were crossed to get the original ,what we call a roller today.Did you know they crossed owls into the homing pigeon to give it a faster wingbeat.You can see the frill on the breast on some homers even today.You should try to cross some breeds into the roller and see what you get It cerainly wont roll.It may take a flip once in a while
Thats if it is crossed with a really good spinner.
Stan Arnold
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Alan Bliven
21 posts
Oct 28, 2004
9:51 PM
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Hi Stan,
Interesting points, thank you for your input.
Last night I was flying around the internet and found a very interesting little tumbler that would be ideal to cross into the roller to get different colors. if you are going to cross them for color, why not do it with an active performer in the air instead of a non-roller?
It's called the Catalonian Tumbler from Spain. The performing tumbler of 1000 colors.
The following from a book entitled: Aloft: A Meditation on Pigeons and Pigeon-Flying by Stephen Bodio. Lyons & Buford Publishers, 1990.
I don’t know why Catalonians are rare; they are a pigeon to disarm the pigeon-hater, and one so beautiful that, if you are inclined to keep animals, you will covet a pair immediately. Most pigeons, however handsomely marked, are dull-colored, ranging in hue from brown to gray. Some of the Cats were of more or less regulation pigeon color and pattern, though the reds, in most breeds an unremarkable brown, were the brilliant chestnut of an Irish setter. But five of the new arrivals were carbon black, with their entire heads, necks, and breasts the reflective copper of a new penny. I am not speaking metaphorically of normal pigeon iridescence, but of a whole new color, one I had never before seen on pigeons. Several of the others had their entire bodies subtly burnished with deep red bronze. Half of them had white tails on colored bodies. And one of these last might have been the prettiest and most unusually colored pigeon I had ever seen: his body was black, his tail white, and his head and neck were pale yellow-gold with glosses of green and pale purple. All these colors were painted on tight, athletic fliers’ bodies – no frills or crests or feathers on the feet here. They had the pearly white tumbler eyes. And they were small, no more than half the size of homers.
Not only were they beautiful, but they could fly, for hours at a time; fly acrobatically, flipping and flaring and tumbling; fly in mock wars, “capturing” flocks of other pigeons and luring them in through my doors; fly, it was alleged, in “combat” against falcons in the islands off Spain, outvying their fierce competitors nine times out of ten. Remembering my boredom, finally, at my old fancy breeds’ do-nothing ways, I was sure that I had found the perfect pigeon....
You can see some pictures here:
http://www.naturalflight.com/pigeons/catalonian.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cataloniantumbler/stencilled_wings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cataloniantumbler/dominant-opal_wings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cataloniantumbler/ash-red_wings.htm
http://www.geocities.com/cataloniantumbler/brown_stencilled_wing.jpg
http://curaj.tripod.com/catalonian_tumblers_images_2.htm
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STARFIRE
65 posts
Nov 09, 2004
6:54 PM
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Hey Allan;
You say that one of the guys was spending 30 years developing a new color and you say that they wont compare to a B.R Spin.Exactly my point.You try breeding some other breed into a roller and try to get them to spin.My Crested birds came from a line of Pensom birds and they have the SPIN.I never bred anything into these birds to get the Crest on them.That was probably done in Englnd 80-90 years ago.These birds spin as well as any top notch Pensom bird alive today.They ball up and they come down 30-40 ft.like a bullet.Hey ,If they didn't spin,and I wanted a crested bird,
theres a lot more crested birds I would be looking at.I live in Ontario Canada,And I hold the record for a 10 bird mixed fly.9 young and 1 old bird.We counted singles in those days.This kit made 350 points and I had 2 Crested birds in it.My Crested Birds spin as tight as fast and deeper than most pensom familys.I get a lot of satisfaction breeding these birds because they are my own creation,and they are excellent spinners.Stan Arnold
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Alan Bliven
24 posts
Nov 09, 2004
9:31 PM
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Ok, thanks Stan. I didn't know about crested rollers. It's a big world out there with lots of mysteries.
----------
Alan
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K.Naylor
45 posts
Nov 10, 2004
3:49 PM
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Stan, I hate to say this but I DO NOT believe that you crested birds spin as good as any birds out there. Are you going to compete in the W/c this year and prove me wrong???
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STARFIRE
67 posts
Nov 10, 2004
4:46 PM
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K.Naylor;
You sound like Scott.No I'm not going in the world fly.The guys in my neck of the woods are as crooked as a dogs hind leg.and wont let me win.They only want to promote those Barrat and Brown birds.They got 32 points for their efforts this year.I think I could have done better than that.
The world fly is a bunch of B.S. now anyway.People getting
2000points to qualify and then getting 32 in the finals.Give me a break.All the clubs are trying to look good and give their guys a B.S. score,to try and out score one another.This years winners score sounds reasonable under 300.Also I know what my birds can do and I have never been beat in fair competition.I have nothing to prove.Believe it or not,I could care less.=Stan Arnold=
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K.Naylor
46 posts
Nov 10, 2004
4:52 PM
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Stan, you sound like a sore loser. How can they cheat. they do not judge their own birds. Also explain how the W/C is a joke? I think it is the best comp in the world. All I am asking is if your birds are as good as you say they are prove it. i know that all the people that brag are full of BS. Real roller men put their birds up and let them do the talking. that is the fact of things. Also you can never count the qualifier score with the finals score. every time you let the birds out they will perform at a different level. Or do your birds do the same thing everytime you let them out? Thanks for the compliment that I sound like Scott, he is my hero.
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Mother lode lofts
288 posts
Nov 10, 2004
5:25 PM
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Stan how did my name come up in this ?
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K.Naylor
47 posts
Nov 10, 2004
5:31 PM
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Stan, I also forgot two things. One is was Weins crooked when he won the whole thing. He is from your area isn't he? Also didn't Scott judge that area once? I know that Scott is not crooked. Be a man and put your birds up and prove me wrong!!
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K.Naylor
48 posts
Nov 11, 2004
8:42 AM
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Stan, my mistake. John is not in your region and Scott did not judge your region. Who is the Rd for your region? I will make sure that you are given a 100% fair shot.
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Steve S.
13 posts
Nov 11, 2004
1:02 PM
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Kevin
Don Luna is in charge of the Canadian
area and he lives in Shomberg Ontario.
He is a nice fella and fair as they come.
Steve
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K.Naylor
49 posts
Nov 11, 2004
1:14 PM
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steve, thanks and I am sure Don is very fair. Besides everyone that has competed in the W/C knows that is it not possible for someone to cheat and get away with it. i am just calling Stans bluff. I am sure Stan will not reply to this issue.
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STARFIRE
68 posts
Nov 11, 2004
5:54 PM
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K.N :
Wrong again.Don Luna was not R.D at the time I,m talking about.Reinhard Wagner was.You have no Idea what goes on in this neck of the woods.One of the World fly judges said he thought his area was bad but he said these guys were a lot worse.He also said he would put my birds in the top 30 in the world.Now you have to believe me because a WF.judge wouldn't lie would he?LOL Harold Ryan said he never seen birds hold their speed-spin as deep as mine.He gave me 1.5Q
1-6D> 230.4=judged 15 min.because of out bird. That was in 97 I think.I had put a young grizzle hen in the stock loft,so the hawks wouldnt get it,a few weeks ago.A guy came to look at my birds fly.I told him I would show him how this little grizzle was spinning.I put it up and before it had spun 3 times he offered me $100.dollars for it.I was about 40 ft.and a very good spinner.I sold it .I can breed more.The funny thing is ,this bird was bred from a mosiac crested hen and an Almond cock.The hen was never flown.I breed 45 pair of top quality Fast 30-40 ft birds.Proven.and flown 2 years before I stock them.Take a look at the video on my site -you can see how deep they are. pages.zdnet.com/stan_a35 =Stan Arnold=
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Nov 11, 2004 5:59 PM
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Mongrel lofts
5 posts
Nov 11, 2004
7:00 PM
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Hey Guys,
When your a legend in your own mind,, you can't lose.. Everyone cheats or you would win,, I think we can all agree on this? Mongrel Lofts
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Mongrel lofts
6 posts
Nov 12, 2004
5:36 AM
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Hey Men,
Can't we all just admit Starfire has the best birds in the world, He has never lost in a competition!! All the guys in his area are just jealous cheaters, so he can't win? Come on guys, you know trying to fly with a whole area of cheaters, that have good reputations in the roller world, like Rienhart Wagner are just out to cheat Starfire.. The WC is a joke, and so are the men and birds who win it??
Man,what would flying and losing do to sells? Good thing Mr Starfire is not a self promoter with a web site selling birds, for a $100 dollars.. Man, that would suck!!
You guys all know, the only reason a man that has some of the best rollers in the world can lose, Is if everyone is cheating him,, Now don't you?
Can we all just say, Legend in my own mind,,Bird selling, don't fly comp, because losing will hurt my sells, I don't have to prove I can fly with the best, I am the best!! Backyard breeding, everyone cheats when they fly me, or I would win, BSer,, sorry but nothing rubs me, like a sore loser who brags he has the best, but can't prove it, cuase everyone will cheat him to be sure he loses.. This guy runs other good men down for an excuse for him not to fly, WOW, UNBELIEVABLE!!! But we have all seen it before and we will see it again.. Just my opinion....Mongrel lofts
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Mother lode lofts
289 posts
Nov 12, 2004
6:57 AM
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I wasn't going to step in here but there is too much work and sacrafice by so many not to. And I agree with you mongral. We have a competition that spans 7 countries and accross four continents all judged by one judge committing three months out of his life to make this happen. Not to mention the hard work of countless others to make this HUGE fly happen. Only to have backyard pigeon keepers slam down the integrity of the World Cup. But when it's conveniant this one backyard flier wants to use a couple of little chicken shit flys for bragging rights of his birds. It is funny how those that like to sell birds and or verbaly brag about how good their birds are don't want to compete with the best in the world as getting thier ass stomped just isnt good for sells and or bragging, and it's a whole lot easier to talk up your birds and claim that you are cheated if you compete than to actually let the birds make the reputation for you. All of this is nothing new when it come's to many backyard fliers as talk is all they have to stand on. They only fool a few though and it only lasts so long for those that are fooled unless they continue being backyard fliers themselfs. It's kind of interesting how an "entire" region would cheat one guy year after year. That is quite a conspiracy.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Nov 12, 2004 8:33 AM
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K.Naylor
52 posts
Nov 12, 2004
8:03 AM
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Guys, I could not have said it better my self. Stan, put up or shut up!!!
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J_Star
77 posts
Nov 12, 2004
10:29 AM
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Scott,
Come on man, you can do better than that..
allot of us backyard fanciers don't claim our birds the best there is and never brag. Allot of us chooses not to get involved in competions because of the seriousnes, commitments and the other BS that goes with it among others. You are generalizing backyard fanciers in your statement. There is a differnece between feather merchants and backyard fanciers. Even for competion flyers, whether winners or losers, should not brag and neither try to put other people birds down. People should practice of being "Good Sport" mentality. I think, would't you?
I know your thoughts by now, and I don't think you ment to put backyard fanciers down, but it sounded that way. Whatever you have with StarFire is something most likely will never go away, but I wanted to make clear to you and other competitors that we are not like that. Thanks.
Jay
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Mother lode lofts
290 posts
Nov 12, 2004
11:03 AM
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Jay the post wasn't mean't to generalize "all" backyard fliers as a whole. But was addressed those that just want to "talk" and make exscuses why they can't or won't put them up. The days of talking your way to fame are over. But there are those who still try. Some will buy it,but some of us will simply say "let the birds do the talking".
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STARFIRE
69 posts
Nov 12, 2004
11:45 AM
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Hey Guys;You are pathetic.You ask me why I don't fly and I give you an honest answer and you attack me as a moneygrabbing backyard flyer.You see you made my point.You show what kind of small minded people you are.I wasnt bragging .You asked me why i didnt fly and I answered you.Now you are on the attack because you dont want to believe that this kind of thing goes on.What is to stop a judge from calling a 10 bird break a 6-4 and calling it waterfalling?Ajudge can screw up the best kit in the world and make the worst bunch of crap look good.You guys are living in a dream world.Let me hear more of your small minded thoughts .I can take it.and I can dish it out too.
I got a thick skin and my own breed of Crested rollers. What have you guys got.You havent been any nearer to the W.C than I have and I'm not even in it. LoL =Stan Arnold =
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K.Naylor
53 posts
Nov 12, 2004
11:54 AM
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Stan, you have not made any sence at all. If a judge sayd that the break was a waterfall then in his opinion it is. The rule states that the last bird counted in the break has to start the roll within 1/2 second of the first bird counted in the break. You still have not shown how anyone in your area cheats. about how the guys have done in the W/C compaired to you. Go to the website and look up Kenny Billings and Scott Cambell under past finals results. That will show you wher they stand compared to you. then look at what position I hold in the W/C. Like I said they will not cheat you out of anything.
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Mother lode lofts
291 posts
Nov 12, 2004
1:51 PM
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Pathetic ? You are here accusing the fliers and your countrymen around your area of being cheaters and crooked in a public forum. Keven here is the new assistant Worldcup director and maybe this is something that he needs to look into and discuss this situation with the fliers in your area to see if there is such a problem. It would be interesting to hear both sides.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Nov 12, 2004 3:01 PM
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Steve S.
14 posts
Nov 12, 2004
2:39 PM
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Sorry Stan I was talking about last years RD up there.
Hey fellas...
I got a solution!
I have flown in a couple Fall Flys but never undertook the World Cup.
I will be first to admit I can't feed very good as to get them ready for a big fly but----
I have 2 world cup winners within 10 minutes of me and if you will send me a kit Stan I will make sure they are preped to the max and flown here in region 3 in the next W/C.under my name. Nobody but us on here will know.
This region has had fair judges as long as I saw the W/C fly as far back as 1993.
I know the RD here is a fair and just man.
We will see what you have in these little crested rollers.
We will split the cost to get them judged fairly.
What do you say Stan?
Steve
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STARFIRE
70 posts
Nov 12, 2004
5:18 PM
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Hey guys ;
This happened 8 years ago so I don't think you will get any where with it even if you wanted to get both sides.Do you think they would admit to it?Your dreaming.As far as sending
a kit of crests down there.I don't have enough pairs to get 15-20 all at once.Besides Scott says they are Mongrels,and not rollers,
so you would have to get permission from him to fly them in competition.LOL.I don't fly my crests all in the same kit anyway.That lets the hawks get them too easy.I bred about
22 this year and I think I got 7-8 left
Did anyone look at my site and look at the 6 bird break?That shows the depth.Lets hear a few comments on the performance.==pages.zdnet.com/stan_a35
I have a 20 bird full turn on tape that I'm going to put on my site as soon as I iron out some technical difficulties.Do you guys have any tape of your birds performance? I'm not afraid to show mine.I just put a lot of new pictures on the Pensom site.=Stan Arnold=
Hey,look Mongrel =I got a website.Take a look at it.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Nov 12, 2004 5:37 PM
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Mother lode lofts
292 posts
Nov 12, 2004
7:58 PM
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Stan to be honest with you all I see is some black dots dropping on that video, if you can't see qaulity it's pretty meaningless,and video just can't catch qaulity in any way,shape or form, never have I seen "any" video worth watching when it come's to birds performing.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Nov 12, 2004 8:03 PM
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JUrbon
27 posts
Nov 12, 2004
8:27 PM
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You know Stan if you want to feed the dam things than you can have frill backed rollers for all I care however not you nor anybody else is going to convince me that there isnt something mixed in with those birds to get that crest as often as you are. I am not saying this to provoke or attack you I am stating it because I can and you cant prove otherwise. You could show me papers that go back 100 years but even I own an eraser. Now if you have managed to get them to roll and do it with some sort of style and velocity then I take my hat off to you but that doesn't give you the right to say that the judging in the WC is unfair or unjust. Just my two cents. Joe Urbon
Last Edited by JUrbon on Nov 13, 2004 9:15 AM
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Birdman
23 posts
Nov 12, 2004
10:26 PM
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Stan, I looked at your website and it's obvious that your birds are crossed with something. Maybe not by you, but somebody definitely crossed them. A few posts up you mentioned that you had thick skin and 'Your Own Breed' of crested rollers. Now in every other post you are claiming that these crested rollers are pure Pensom's, but now they are 'Your Own Breed'? If they are really Birmingham Rollers of the Pensom strain, then how can you claim that they are your own breed? What did you do to them that enables you to claim them as your own breed?
Russ
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JUrbon
28 posts
Nov 13, 2004
9:12 AM
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Russ I am sure glad that I wasn't the only one to catch on to that. Joe Urbon
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STARFIRE
71 posts
Nov 13, 2004
11:22 AM
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Hey Birdman;
I say these Crested birds are my own because they are.I started this family of Crests from one Lavender booted hen I bred about 30 years ago.From a line of my Pensom strain birds.All the birds you see can be traced back to that hen.
I never crossed a crested breed with these birds.I said it is a mutation.I never said that they werent crossed with something, way back in England.All I said was that I never did it.Do you know of any other Crested bird anywhere in the world that can spin? Now I have a breed that is Unique in the world,and I'm proud to say I created them.If I never put up this Website to show these birds to everybody would we even be talking about them?You wouldn't know they existed would you?Aren't they nice to look at?Why do all the pigeon guys try to tear down and criticize anybody who
dares to try something new.I didn't put up this site to sell them either.I put it up to show people that there are
birds besides the birmingham that can spin,and that a new breed can be made.Hey Scott,I knew exactly what you would say about my video.If you were in my yard when I took this video would it look different?You have never said any thing good about any thing,that I have seen you comment on.You just love to find fault with everything and every one.At least I have the video up there.Even you would have to see how deep they are,if you were honest.What kind of judge would you be when you cant see how fast they dropped.Birds with no velocity would not drop so fast.Twist everything I said around to suit your own needs,and I'll read them in the next post you write LOL= Stan Arnold=
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Mother lode lofts
293 posts
Nov 13, 2004
2:42 PM
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Gee Stan I don't know what to tell you. This was like a loaded question, basicly there is nothing good to say about it. You can't tell anything from video and excpecially that video. Plus the timing is wierd,almost like the whole thing is sped up. Kinda like watching a old black and white movie that was hand cranked . As for depth, you can see good seperation but there is nothing to gauge it by, in no way can you make out any form of qaulity so depth is a mute point. In reality it looks like a five bird break if not a nonscorable waterfall break three went together,then two more, than the last one. you just can't tell for sure on this video . At one point you can barely make out wing beat and the rest of the time you can't see it at all. Sorry Stan that is how I see that video. If anyone else see's it differently PLEASE enlighten me. Stan Like I said earlier, in my book no video is worth watching when it come's to birds working as it just can't do it justice even when much better equip. is used.
OK now about that original crest hen. What was her background ? And why do call them Pensom based ?
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STARFIRE
72 posts
Nov 13, 2004
5:41 PM
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Hi Scott;
These crested birds came from a line of Pensom birds I started in I968.I got all my birds from a market that was operating at the time.I think I paid $1.00 apeice for them.
You have heard of Jerry Sallinger,in Hamilton,Ont.he imported birds from Pensom,in the early 60's.Well I got 4 pair of his birds,that he had sold to someone in Ancaster Ont.and they had gone out of birds and brought them to the market.They were 2 red barred cocks and 2 yellow barred hens.Also later on I got a pair of red checkers.That came from another guy named Szavo that imported them right from Pensom.He went out of birds and took them to the market also.No one wanted these birds as they were all Red checkers,and they were sold for meat.He brought them to the market in the original shipping crate with pensoms name on it.I was lucky to get this pair as they were bought by a young guy who bred them and didnt like the red check young so he sold them at the market again.I never let these birds out,and bred them blind,and flew out the young.I couldn't believe the spin on these birds.I never had spinners before that time and was really impressed by these birds.I continued to breed these birds,and their young,and I started getting the odd crested bird,from one pair.I used to kill them,at first but as I kept breeding them and seen that they were spinning as good as the other ones.I thought,there are no other crested birds that have a quality spin so why not deliberately try to breed a bunch of them.I started with a Lavender hen with a peak crest,and bred her to a red barred cock and got yellow bar and red bar self hens from them.These birds had a very good shell crest on them and they were excellent spinners.I bred the 2 hens back to the father.And then the offsring to the mother and bro/sis matings.I have been breeding them ever since.I have never put another bird in my coop from the original
birds I bought till about 92 When I got 3 hens of Sallingers again to see if I could get a little more frequency from the new -old blood.I also put in one almond cock that a friend gave me in about 94.These birds have been kept pure as I Could keep them.I never seen any birds better than mine,In my area, so why would I want anybody elses.I've seen those Barrat and Brown birds fom England
and I havent seen one that I would put in my loft.They don't spin.I have been offered these birds but I tell them I don't want to ruin mine. That's the story on these crested birds.No Crosses with another breed.Only the birds I started with.I have seen a crested bird on another website from England so it shows that they do come up now and again.I forget who it was,either Peter Handy or Frank Lavin.==Stan Arnold==
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Mother lode lofts
294 posts
Nov 13, 2004
8:03 PM
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Stan I'll ask Peter Handy about this. As for Frank Lavin, he lives in Texas and breeds the old Pensom stuff and no crests or yellows. Chan Grover had some yellow crests many years ago and there are pics of them in the first book of "last Of The Greats". Ralph Hilton had a line that threw crests and rumer has it that he bred in Archangle for the shiny black which he wanted for shows. And yes I have heard that there are a couple of guys in England that have had crests pop up in thier birds but like here it is particular lofts only but never seen in other lofts. As for yellow, I don't know of any of the old Pensom line's that carry it. What I have noticed is that there are some lofts that carry novilties just as the strange colors, crests ect., Other lofts have kept the line's pure as did the lofts before them and you just don't see anything popping funny popping up in the way of non standard colors or things such as crests. Personally I think the crests and yellow are more likely a product of the lofts before you and what may have been in those lofts (just like you threw in an Almond). Good luck with them.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Nov 13, 2004 8:21 PM
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Bluesman
51 posts
Nov 14, 2004
3:17 AM
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Almond was in the Pensom bloodline in the early 60's.The famous Weber Almond Cock was a cock from Bill Pensom.David
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Mother lode lofts
295 posts
Nov 14, 2004
7:20 AM
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Dave what is the "famous Almond Weber Cock" ? What is the band number ?
Scott
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Mongrel lofts
7 posts
Nov 14, 2004
9:06 AM
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Hi Dave,
Is this famous Almond cock the one back in the Carolina's that Carl Hardesty birds come out of?? If so, I was told he was really a dark tort that they just called the Almond cock,becuase he looked like an almond.. Just wondering if you are talking about the same bird?? Mongrel Lofts
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Mongrel lofts
8 posts
Nov 14, 2004
9:16 AM
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Hi Stan,
Since you have never seen birds as good as your own Starfire crested rollers and you can't fly, because people will cheat you.. Could you point us to someone else who flys your family of starfire crested rollers, or even family of birds that does compete and fairs well in competition. Most good strains of rollers, can point to a few lofts that based their stock around birds from their lofts, and have been flying good teams that can compete in the big flys... I know everyone can't be cheating the guys you have helped get started with these great crested rollers also.. So throw a couple names out there for us Stan that we can look up in the fly results of the WC or the NBRC national fly.. Would like to see how your family is fairing in comp in others lofts.. Thanks Stan
Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
52 posts
Nov 14, 2004
10:43 AM
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Mongrel Lofts. I think we may be talking about the same cock.When I talk to James Turner again I will try to find out for sure.But according to my notes from Turner the Weber Cock was an Almond.Let you know when I find out anything.
Scott. I have no idea what the band # would be.Most of the Old Stock they talk about I don,t pay much mind to.Makes for some interesting conversations sometimes tho.I have papers on Pensom birds back to the early 60s.Don,t mean a thing to me.I have already found some impossible things genetic wise on the papers.But then some didn,t know about the genetic side and called a color what it looked like.David
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STARFIRE
73 posts
Nov 14, 2004
12:47 PM
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Hey Mongrel;
I said I have never seen better birds than mine IN MY AREA.
The guys here fly English imports,Barrat and Brown birds.
The late George Babarris got 5th place in the world fly in 2002 I think with these English birds.He got 660 pts I think.
I would not take that kit of birds if he gave them to me .They have no Quality.Lots of frequency,not too much control.I breed For quality and depth.I want to see a bird come 30-40 ft like bullet.Balled up like a baseball.Why are you guys talking about putting them up for competition?I have,nt been in competition for 8 years.I haven't been trying to put a kit together for competition.I rejoined my old club,after 18 years out of competition,and the first year I competed I came in second place for old bird scores.I have the trophy to prove it.That was in 96.You want me to put a picture of the trophy on my site to show you?Monty Neible said it would take him 3 years to get a good kit going if he lost all his competetion team.Scott said he is flying birds 6 years old.I have never flown birds older than last year-holdovers.I haven't been keeping the good ones the last few years because,Guys come and buy them all up.I will have to start keeping some of the young ones,as some of my breeders go back to 96.Most years I can put a good kit together from my young ones,If I want to keep them.Mine spin early.If I put my birds together for breeding,the second week in February ,I can usually have a kit going by the end of July.Don't ever think that there are only good birds in the world cup.This is what is going to do the W.C. in .If they don't witness it themselves then it can't be true and every body is a B.S.er.You guys can't prove how good your birds are any more than me.And besides who cares.Tell me ,How can you tell people how your birds are without sounding like you are bragging.Tell me exactly how you would word it so as it won't sound like you are bragging.What do you tell them when they go 30-40- ft,that they only go 20ft. so as not to let people think your bragging? I tell it like it is.If you choose not to believe it,what do I care? Pigeon People hate something new.
Don't you know all pigeon guys think they have the best birds by now?=LOL= Even you = Stan Arnold
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Nov 15, 2004 3:35 PM
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Mongrel lofts
12 posts
Nov 14, 2004
3:13 PM
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Hi Stan,
First let me answer your question.. I think flying for a judge and letting him report what he seen from your birds is one way people judging the quality and depth of your rollers can get out the.. Having others who are breeding down from your birds, fly them for judge and all to compare, is Another,.. Letting those who have seen you fly, speak of the quality you have flying.. The point is, the word gets around about really good rollers, without one standing on top the barn, and boasting like a Banny rooster.. Tooting ones own horn, is always seen as boasting or bragging.. You know, things like I never lost a competition. Especially when it's followed by, I don't fly comp anymore, because I was cheated out of win in the WC.. Shoot me for finding that a rather conflicting way of seeing things..
Stan, I have no doubt you have some birds that roll well..I think guys that fly some good rollers are fairly common.. The leap from a guy having some good rollers, and one who can fly a team of 20 of them, at a World Class level, when its his turn to prove it, Is a whole different level! For me its a level up, and I have great respect for those who are willing to put in the work, and put them up, win or lose! They don't talk about it Stan, they just do it! Can you see the difference here?
The Bottom line Stan, if your not willing to step up to the plate yourself.. Don't talk crap about the guys willing to put them up for all to judge.. It don't make your birds or you look better, by calling the WC a joke, or others cheaters, thats why you don't fly.. If you can't run with the big dogs, thats fine.. Just don't try to build your birds up, by running down those you have not been able to keep up with.. I'm out!! Mongrel Lofts
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STARFIRE
74 posts
Nov 14, 2004
7:46 PM
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Hey Ken;
No matter what I say,You wont believe me any way.so why go on with this line of talk.Everything I told you is true and if you don't believe me,tough.Just let yourself believe every body that don't fly in the world cup is a B.S.er.Especially me,if it makes you happy.Good luck in your flys this year.Stan Arnold
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JUrbon
29 posts
Nov 14, 2004
8:36 PM
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Hey Stan,
I think that you are missing the point that Kenny is trying to get across to you. There are several guys on this forum that I have seens birds and several I have not but have heard of and not from themselves. It is always nice to hear from a fellow fancier how a fly went and who flew the best birds on this day but and I do mean but nobody wants to hear somebody brag about their birds for more than a minute or so anyway. It would be more convincing if somebody else in your neck of the woods other than yourself was doing the bragging and if sombody else was flying your birds. I guess what I am trying to say is I am not doubting that your birds are as good as you think they are but until you get out to some of the top fliers in this country than you have nothing to compare yours to. Joe Urbon
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K.Naylor
56 posts
Nov 15, 2004
10:52 AM
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Stan, you said that your crested rollers spin as good as any pensom birds alive. All we are asking you to do is prove it. Your word is not good enough. as for other crested rollers ther is a guy in Vallejo(Calif) that raises all crested rollers. They spin but from what I know most roll down. I wonder why that is??? Also as for Kenny and Scott, I have never heard them bragging about how good their birds are. I have heard alot of other people saying how good they are. They also do not try and sell them. Most good roller men do not try and sell birds.
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STARFIRE
75 posts
Nov 15, 2004
3:19 PM
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Hey J.U.&K.N;
I knew no one would believe me,when I put that site up.Thats the reason thatI put up that W.C.scoresheet.It was to prove the Q.-D. of my Pensom stock.Are you going to dispute the markers on that sheet and call Harold Ryan a liar?Peter Handy won the cup this year with 265 Pts.I realize that my scoresheet was a 96 fly but you dont get markers like that with substandard birds.Better than any in my area.If you want to find out about my Crested rollers e-mail this guy.He lives in Sterling Ont.and has a bunch of my crests.= wayneteresa@sympatico.com and ask him about them.Do you want to talk to the guy that paid $100.00 for my young grizzle?He also bought 2 young yellow nun marked squeekers,for $100.00.They werent even weaned yet.Any man's a fool to give away his birds.People don't value anything that is given to them.I don't believe there is anybody in S.California that has all crested birds.If that were true I wouldnt be getting e.mail from guys down there trying to buy mine.The only guy I know of who has crested birds is John Castro in North Carolina.He calls his Palmeto Crests because he got them in Palmeto Florida.I never intended my site to be a sales tool for my birds.Do you see anywhere on the site about me trying to sell them?I have 45 pairs I breed every year.What would I do with them if I didn't sell them I don't need a site to sell my birds.I have to make them pay for the feed.I got so many e=mails from California to ship my birds down there I had to put on the site=I don't ship birds to the states= And on the selling thing-There are lots of guys that sell birds that are in the world cup.Why else would they want to win it?Its like anything else It shows you have good stock.Do you think all the W.C. winners are giving away their birds?You got to be kidding.When they win it they can't breed enough birds to fill the orders.Everybody that has good birds come from the w.c winners,if they can afford them.
Why haven't more of you guys put up a website,and show us your birds.Then I can tell you I don't believe what's on them.L.O.L and your word isn't good enough =Stan Arnold=
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K.Naylor
57 posts
Nov 15, 2004
3:34 PM
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Stan, re read what I said . Top roller men DO NOT try and sell birds. Besides $100 for a bird does not mean it is a good one, it just means that the guy that bought it was willing to pay that much for it. If Scott and Kenny were to try and sell birds they would bring alot more than that. I am sure Kenny could tell you some offers he has had. Also the guy in Vallejo is in Northern Coastal California and he does have crested rollers.
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