Alan Bliven
62 posts
Jan 25, 2005
9:21 PM
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One thing I don't understand and maybe someone can help me understand it. How can a roller breeder who says, "I don't fly my birds" claim to have good performance birds for sale?
If he don't try the stock by flying them, how does he know they are good performance birds? Is it because he has a well known family name attached to them? But I would think no matter how good his original stock was without trying them in the air they would quickly degenerate in performance within a generation or two, regardless of what the family name is.
Or maybe he only breeds from stock birds he was told were excellent performers by a trusted flier. But would anyone who is someone really sell their best performers?
Common sense would dictate to buy a kit of progeny from his best performers, fly and prove them and only select a small percentage of the best performers for stock birds, regardless of color. Then you know you have the best of the best and not just second rate stock birds.
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Alan
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Slobberknocker
21 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:35 AM
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Alan,
If the city or town where you lived suddenly passed a ban on pigeons and the only way you could keep them was to kind of be hush hush about them without flying them to invite problems, would you still keep you pigeons?
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 26, 2005 8:11 AM
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J_Star
159 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:04 AM
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I will move to another friendlier town. There are lots of them in the USA. What is the difference between four legged pets and birds? They are both kept and maintained. I understand if the birds are kept free lofted, then they would become a problem to neighbors.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 26, 2005 7:07 AM
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Slobberknocker
26 posts
Jan 26, 2005
7:19 AM
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Jay,
My point was that, if circumstances beyond your control rpevented you from flying your birds, would you still have Rollers or any type of Pigeon?
Those of us who love and enjoy our birds would still keep them even if we were no longer able to fly them. Would the competition man who works to chase the WC do the same or is winning more important than the love of the birds?
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 26, 2005 8:12 AM
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Mother lode lofts
413 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:14 AM
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Bob for the ones that I know are serious about the birds , without exception they would move. I know of others that have fought it all the way to the top and many have won the battle.
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fhtfire
96 posts
Jan 26, 2005
9:13 AM
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Hey,
I would move in a heartbeat if I could not have birds. I had an inspector over checking on new pool and he saw the birds...I knew the inspector personally and the city ordinance is 6 birds...I have a few more then that..but he saw how clean it was...how nice the lofts were and they were all below the fence...hell my breeder loft is a swing set anyway. I then explained that they only fly for like 45 minutes and come straight in...and I explained the trap and how they are trained to land on the kit box and nothing else. SO while he was inspecting I let the kit out...when he was close to being done...he got to witness the birds come down..land on the box...I was getting the food and the birds were landing on my head etc...I put the food in...opened the trap and they were all in, in about 10 seconds. He was so impressed with how tame they were, and how fast they came in and how they did not land on any houses. He was...like ...I am sold. As he walked out he stepped in a pile of dog S#$T...I said see at least pigeons poop in the same place and are easy to keep clean.
He also said that ordinaces are only enforced if someone complains. then you can fight it and prove that the birds are clean and not a problem to anybody...like I did..of course every city is different
rock and ROLL
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2701Dunn
5 posts
Jan 26, 2005
9:39 AM
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Hey guys,
Its funny you guys talking about moving in a heartbeat for your birds. Well this past June i got married and bought a house and all that. Well, i was in a roller club already but didn't even have birds yet. Well one of my requirements were to have a open enough area and a big yard so i could fly my birds. Luckily i had a great realitor and she looked for things for me. I now have birds and love them. We did get an older house, (1981) and my neighborhood does not have any ordinance against birds or anything. So I am a new fancier but got the bug as one of you guys once said. I am right there with you guys.
Thanks alot !
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Alan Bliven
64 posts
Jan 26, 2005
12:21 PM
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Bob,
Yes, I understand if a person can't fly their birds. But I doubt I would keep rollers if I couldn't fly them. I guess I would keep show birds or rare breeds because how can I market them as great performers when I don't (for whatever reason) prove them in the air?
I see many ads for performance birds with proven family names but when you ask them about their performance, they say they don't fly their birds. As I said, I would think without testing them, regardless of how good the intentions or the original stock birds were the family will quickly degenerate without choosing future breeders from the air. In other words, without proving them in the air, almost all of his future stock birds are a fliers culls because a flier only chooses a very small percentage of his best performers as future stock birds, the rest are culls.
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Alan
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Phantom1
42 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:18 PM
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Alan, Good point about needing to fly the birds. But if the blood is there, it's there. Seeking after the "Birmingham Roll" is all about inbreeding anyway, so it'll come out regardless. Right?
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Slobberknocker
35 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:22 PM
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Alan,
According to Pensom, the ability to Roll is in ALL Rollers and nothing that we can do will ever change that. It does not make sense to me that just because a bird is not flown, it will lose the gene that causes this ability. Has your theory ever been documented or proven out?
Bob
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highroller
74 posts
Jan 26, 2005
1:38 PM
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I don't think Alan is saying the roll gene will be lost. We all know from experience that not all of our rollers will perform up to our standards. Breeding birds without knowing their performance can and will most likely lead to reduced performance in the family because we are not sure we have selected the very best to breed from. They all have the roll gene but there are other factors that play into the total performance of our birds and those factors must be monitored closely by flying the birds out and choosing the best to breed from.
Dan
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Cliff
34 posts
Jan 26, 2005
2:34 PM
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As I understand it, the "ro" gene is recessive, thus can be selectively bred out of a Birmingham Roller, which occurs commonly and to varying degrees in "backyard lofts" that don't pay attention or don't care. Is this bird still a Birmingham Roller? Is a bird that doesn't roll a BR simply because of its heritage? So it doesn't seem that ALL Birmingham Rollers can roll. I'm sure that we have all seen the contrary and culled accordingly. But what if we didn't cull them? Are they still Birmingham Rollers without the roll? If one answers "yes" to that question, yet insists a Birmingham Roller with a color modifier that rolls to perfection is not, then his sense of logic is truly distorted. WHP's definition of the BR is one based on performance, primarily, and genetics, secondarily, as is that of the NBRC. Cliff
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Mother lode lofts
419 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:04 PM
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Is a Labador retriever that doesn't retrieve still a Labador retriever ? or is it just the poorest example of one that is useless.
Same holds true for Birmingham Rollers , that is why no matter what the breed we have culls and champs and everything in between.
Can you go generations of breeding and maintain first class birds ? No, That is the thinking of pedigree breeders, nore can you do the same by color. By doing so you are adding anything and everthing as far as good and bad, before long the faults will overwhelm the good traits
Eric inbreeding brings up the good and the bad. The bad can easily over whelm the good due to to much garbage.
Bob what I think that Pensom was refering to was out of a solid family. Besides when "I" cull it isn't due to birds not rolling it is due to faults in the roll or to short on depth or at times to hot. Breeding and not flying for generations will give you far more of the above. Or if stiffs were used and you "set" that is what you will get. Flying gives you at least an idea of the direction of sorts.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 4:12 PM
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Phantom1
46 posts
Jan 26, 2005
4:44 PM
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If a Golden Retriever is PURE BRED, has it's papers, registered etc, it doesn't make a Non-Retriever. It is what it is. Lets not go off and cull Old Yeller!
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JUrbon
46 posts
Jan 26, 2005
5:42 PM
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Phantom 1, I think what Scott is saying is that a retriever of any king is nothing more than a good family pet if you don't train is to be a retriever. That in my opinion can not be argued. Now on the subject at hand I personally feel that if you do not fly the birds and cull hard than there is no doubt that the crap will eventually take over. You show me one and I mean one breeder of competitive rollers that does not fly his birds and cull from the air. I dont think you will find any and I can also name several guys just local to my area that breed for color and paper that claim to breed for performance but I have never seen a kit flown at their house and furthermore I can also name 1 gentlemen that was 10th in the WC and started breeding for color and now can't even manage a kit now. I would move if I could not fly here at my house and in fact I have,. due to heavy falcons at my old residence.I have no desire to keep another breed of pigeon so I guess that I would try to find somebody to fly my young for me and let me know the progress so that I may pair them accordingly thus still being able to keep my birds. Just my opinions, Joe Urbon
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Alan Bliven
66 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:01 PM
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Since we are on the topic of dogs, I breed performance German Shepherds (Police Dogs) and the rule of thumb is no dog should be able to reproduce unless it's proven on the field. In Germany, a GSD can't reproduce unless it has a Schutzhund title, that's a title that's only given to dogs proven on the field of performance. No consideration is ever given towards color, only performance. If it is, the performance will suffer. Some of the best dogs are also the ugliest ;)
The back yard breeders have almost ruined this breed with the lack of selective breeding. The result is it's a German Shepherd according to looks and the AKC but it's only a German Shepherd on the outside not the inside and the general public don't know and don't care about the difference because they only want a pet or a watch dog.
I believe the same can be said across the board in breeding all kinds of domestic performance animals. When you breed for color and or a standard the performance can't help but suffer. It's been proven in all breeds of animals that you just can't have the best of both worlds if you want to get the BEST of either out of them.
I'd be willing to bet Kentucky Derby hopefuls can't breed for racing AND rare colors without having the performance suffer.
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Alan
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Mother lode lofts
424 posts
Jan 26, 2005
6:07 PM
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Alan you and Rod are allready way ahead of many and will go further than most.
Last Edited by Mother lode lofts on Jan 26, 2005 6:08 PM
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Alan Bliven
67 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:12 PM
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I seen hundreds of these very same arguments in the dog forums. The only difference there is it's show dogs vs working dogs. And isn't that what rare color's are all about.. to please the eye and mess with color genetics?
I'd like to thank you and some others for helping me see the truth of the matter and start out right or I too could have wasted many years and lots of money. I don't see it as you "running rough shod over people" but only trying to help them not make mistakes.
Besides, my Horner line of Jaconette birds are very colorful to me. They look to me like Birmingham Rollers. That's where I see beauty. And most importantly you can see heart in them. The stock was chosen out of the air with no regard for color.
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Alan
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viper
26 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:20 PM
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If every bird that is hatched from a proven pair a champ
why raise so many every year?The same with horses dogs or what ever.If you go to a horse sale you will hear the line
on the peds,its daddy was a champ or granddad was a champ,
I think yea but what did it do, not a relative 10 years ago.Just because its down from race horses don't make it a racer.You have a better chance but you can't say
it is unless it proves it self on the track or whatever its suposed to do.Same with the birds you can't say there rollers if you don't fly pick and cull hard.I Would rather fly and loose them to a hawk than not fly and breed a un flown bird..Blake
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viper
27 posts
Jan 26, 2005
8:31 PM
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The only pretty bird is the ones that roll 20+ feet and once or twise a min. shootting back to the kit to do it agin.These are the real rollers an right kind.Blake
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rotti
27 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:01 AM
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I really don't understand this thread. If the only way to choose breeders is from the air,then how the heck do you breed if you don't fly?!? This seems impossible. Rollers are bred to perform in the air? I may be new but I thought that was what it was all about. The performance. If you have never seen them fly how can you possibly say what their young will do? Mom and dad may be great but that doesn't mean the young will be. If the parents success guaranteed the childs success then we wouldn't need jails. As a newbie to this sport I don't understand how you can say you breed the best without proving it. By this thinking all of Michael Jordan's kids will be basketball stars. Good stock may improve the chance of getting another star but it damn sure doesn't guarantee it. If you don't fly and, at that; don't compete you have no clue as to what you are breeding. There has to be some way of comparing what you create to what others create. In this sport it is the local flies up to the finals. Finals being the world cup. If you want to say you breed champions? Then prove it. Put your best up against the best in the world. If not go home and enjoy your birds. But please don't try to pass unknown quality off on me. I've been privaledged to get to know some great people in this hobbie who were more than willing to cut me a break. They didn't claim I was getting world cup winning birds they just said they would send me unproven birds from their best stock. It is my job to fly them and pick the best to breed from. So that is what I'll do. Any time I want I can go see their fly record. I know they fly. They didn't give excuses as to why they don't fly. It wouldn't matter if you bought birds from this years world cup winner. Within a year they would be different birds from what you bought. And if you never flew them how the hell would you ever know what they were capable of? The birmingham roller is a flying breed. First and foremost. If it isn't flying it most certainly isn't a birmingham roller. Call it what you want but it ain't what I want. Sorry about the language Tony but there just wasn't any other way to express it. If it don't fly, how the hell can it roll? Don
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Slobberknocker
39 posts
Jan 27, 2005
5:09 AM
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Don,
Interesting post. So, say I have a loft of pure BR's that I can trace back to the very first original imports. According to you, if they don't fly, they are not a BR. Does that mean if they fly and roll properly, they are a true BR? Do you know if EVERY imported bird from way back was flown and proven out? If so, how do you know this? Just asking, not trying to stir things up.
Bob
PS, now that we know that Alan breeds Police Dogs, don't mess with him.
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rotti
28 posts
Jan 30, 2005
6:34 AM
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Hey, Bob. I didn't mean to say that birds that didn't fly weren't BR's just not BR's worth having. I don't know if every imported bird was flown out and proven. My guess would be no. The importer took someones word and flew out the young rather than risk the stock he paid for. I would do the same. But I wouldn't claim I had world class rollers if I wasn't currently flying them in world class competition. If you don't pick your breeders in the air you must pick them based on some other criteria. And this cannot be their ability to perform. So if you want to raise performing Birmingham rollers and sell them as such you should fly them. If not raise them and sell them as show rollers as this is what they are. You don't breed milk cows for meat and beef cows for milk. And you don't raise flying pigeons that don't fly. Don
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JUrbon
53 posts
Jan 30, 2005
11:02 AM
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Don that was a great post and I hope you don't mind if I try to add to it a little bit.
You don't buy a car without test driving it nor would you buy a horse for your kids to ride without first seing that it was gentle enough for kids. These birds are bred for performance and if you cannot fly them for some reason or another than you will loose the ability to know what to pair up to get the best out of your birds. You may still have tha performance that you had in the past but you are the only one that will think that and then you will only be making an educated guess. Sure you would be able to pick the best if these birds had 100% of their young but that has never happened and I dont see it happening in the future. Thus the only conclusion that I can come to is if you want to breed performance rollers than put them in the air otherwise do yourself and the birds a favor and breed show rollers. Joe Urbon
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Alan Bliven
81 posts
Jan 30, 2005
2:24 PM
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Bob,
Police Dogs only are a threat to the criminals, so you have nothing to worry about, I've been told you are lily white. ;) And my dealings with you have proven the same. Those Central Asiatic Rollers I got from you are doing great. The two pair have already bred two sets and one pair is sitting again. I'm curious as to how the young will perform.
I paired the kite cock with a black hen and they produced a black and a dun. The other pair is the red cock with a black hen and they produced two reds. The strange thing is those two reds are going to have huge muffs. Larger muffs must be common in the CARs.
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Alan
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rotti
29 posts
Jan 30, 2005
11:03 PM
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Thanks Joe. what you added was exactly what I was trying to say. Don
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Deadendkid
36 posts
Nov 09, 2007
4:45 PM
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fly in all flys you can thats what the birds were bred for
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CSRA
428 posts
Nov 09, 2007
5:02 PM
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Fly your birds pick from the air so you will know what you putting in your loft
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ezeedad
1 post
Nov 09, 2007
6:30 PM
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Lately I haven't been flying my birds mainly because of the BOP problem and because of my work schedule. However, I think that I can say with confidence that my birds are still of high quality.
I built a family slowly over the years strictly from those birds that I flew. I really don't think that it is even possible to fly rollers the way we used to. The best time of year to see thier performance is around Christmas... right in the middle of "hawk season".
So I have been reduced to selecting my birds on the ground, based on what I know about rollers and the characteristics of my family. Someone who doesn't have an established family or that has been crossing out to other blood will be at a distinct disadvantage.
But as long as the breeder doesn't cross out of a closely bred family, such as Dennis Godair's (Sam Smith's), Monty Neibles or Kenny Billing's for example, he will not be introducing any new genes, and the birds should produce fairly consistent.
Paul Gomez
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mcroller
2 posts
Nov 09, 2007
6:41 PM
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hell might as well have chickens
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Electric-man
823 posts
Nov 09, 2007
7:12 PM
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Welcome guys! Kinda slow tonight! Little unusual!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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nicksiders
2437 posts
Nov 09, 2007
7:26 PM
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Welcome to the site, Paul and mcroller. Are you the Paul Gomez from LA?
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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Missouri-Flyer
909 posts
Nov 09, 2007
8:22 PM
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Jan. 2005?..Now were going way back..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Opinionated Blowhard
97 posts
Nov 09, 2007
11:16 PM
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If the birds havent been selectd for performance for 3 generations their still rollers but theirs no way to stay that their good performance birds worth paying money. It would be honest to say that their unproven performers. Or just that they used to be rollers.
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MILO
826 posts
Nov 10, 2007
12:18 AM
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Pick em on the ground and you'll hurt your reputation, and your program. It is better to risk them to the BOP's, and put one great one away each year, than have a loft full of unproven birds. You just do yourself a disservice.
c
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1149 posts
Nov 10, 2007
4:42 AM
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O.K. Got a question.First you all know I fly my birds so this is just a What If.
What if I stock a pair of the best rollers I ever flew out, bred from them for a couple years and their young proved out to be good.Now I quit breeding from this pair and don't breed from them for 4 or 5 years.Now I decide to breed from them and sell their young.Are the young from this pair any different than the ones 4 or 5 years ago? David
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nicksiders
2438 posts
Nov 10, 2007
7:41 AM
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The genetics did not change. If that pair produced good bird number of years; then you stop for whatever years; they would continue to produce the same when you started back up with them.
David, where in the hell have you been? I missed you, bud.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2007 7:43 AM
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MILO
829 posts
Nov 10, 2007
9:08 AM
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David.
You have already done the hard work. This is a tricky question though, but I think easily answered. The birds are proven. When you sell the unflown squeaks, you just pass the information along. In fact, whomever buys them from you at that point, has a really good shot at getting some good birds. BUT, remember the person that buys them, will stock them. So you have a generation of unflown birds. When the youngsters then are pumping out great numbers, you look like a stud breeder. If the young pump out culls, what do you tell him when he complains?
c
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ezeedad
2 posts
Nov 10, 2007
11:06 AM
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Hi Milo,
Yes I'm Paul Gomez from Los Angeles... Still live and kicking. With all these screennames on this site I don't know who is who.. I really don't want to get into agruments with the blow hards who frequent these type of forums... I had enough of that a while back with Earl's list. And I can't stand somebody else telling me what I should or shouldn't be doing in my own backyard.
The only reason that I responded to this topic was that I am confident that my birds are still of high quality.
Two main reasons..or maybe three...
First, I have built my family on birds I have had since the 60s, with very few crosses and then only from the best birds available to me.. from Bill Pensom, Cornell Norwood, and 1 champion from Ron Dent.
Second, I flew my birds relentlessly and selected only the best to breed from. I flew my old foundation hen for 14 years.
Third I don't cross anything into my family...and I never will. Every time someone crosses they are starting all over at square one.
Fourth... OK so it's more that 3..!! When DNA is replicated, is is identical to the original... So as long as you are not crossing you will keep the same gene pool.
Fifth...OK SO WHAT..!! if I DO have more to say.!!
I know from long years of experience what a good roller in my family looks like.
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Skylineloft
334 posts
Nov 10, 2007
11:18 AM
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Paul,
Good to see you here posting.
I agree that every time you add a bird
its like starting over. Stick around.
IM sure there is plenty we can learn from you.
Ray
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MILO
831 posts
Nov 10, 2007
12:56 PM
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You're funny Paul. LOL
Welcome to the list. I think you'll enjoy it here. There are only a handfull of blowhards on this list...LOL
c
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ezeedad
3 posts
Nov 10, 2007
1:11 PM
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One more little fact.... I just occured to me... The fact that a bird is a good spinner doesn't make it a good producer of spinners. So we should follow Pensom's advice and choose our birds using ALL qualities.. a great deal of which can best be done by handling and observing the bird up close...
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1150 posts
Nov 10, 2007
1:29 PM
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Nick.I have just been enjoying life.I kind of backed off the forums thru the summer.Then hunting got in the way(still is)and on top of everything else I started a Skull Cleaning service with beetles.As if I needed something else to occupy my time.LOL.
I have had a good year with my rollers.I have missed all you fellows too.I am sure with winter coming on we will get some good conversations going.Take Care my Friend,David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1151 posts
Nov 10, 2007
1:38 PM
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Milo.They all won't pump out culls.It is up to him to fly them out and build his loft around them.The bloodline is still good though.
Now for part two.
Will a Proven pair of rollers produce a larger percentage of better offspring in their earlier years compared to when they are 10 or 12 years old? David
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MILO
832 posts
Nov 10, 2007
2:00 PM
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Maybe you are right David. But that is an assumption that can never be made with rollers. Just because a bird is out of this or that, sure it's likely to produce good ones, but even 514 made culls. Right? Or no?
I think this second question was discussed before. A pair can produce the same quality of offspring in their first year as in their 10th. I think it is coincidental when a pair seems to "explode" on a given year. Just the luck of the cards really.
c
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Missouri-Flyer
911 posts
Nov 10, 2007
2:24 PM
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David,
I personally dont feel that age "given the cock/hen are fertile" has anything to do with how good or how bad the offspring are. Every pair will produce their share of good, as well as bad. Your job is to cull the weak, and settle on the better birds. I have read some say several times, and I have done it myself in the past, that they cull young before their a year old. I have learned from experience that some birds, no matter what family, no matter what genetic makeup, no matter what feeding/flying program they are under, will come into their prime later in life.
Just hold onto them as long as possible, and see what happens.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2007 2:27 PM
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Windjammer Loft
20 posts
Nov 10, 2007
4:11 PM
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This is a really good post. So I might as well put my few cents into it too...LOL. My understanding is you are supposed to pick your birds from the air. If so, then birds that are not flown would be a waste of time and money. On the other hand I would think too much would be lost if they aren't flown to prove themselves. What Iam saying is I wouldn't buy anything that was not flown, if I were looking to fly these birds. And as far as the dog issue. I have been training and showing dogs for over 30 years. From my experience,the majority of so called AKC breeds CAN NOT, I repeat CAN NOT do what they were actually bred for. All was bred out to make them a better so called "show dog". Which doesn't have anything to do with their working ability to do what they were bred for.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2007 4:14 PM
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gotspin7
398 posts
Nov 10, 2007
7:04 PM
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Paul, on the dog issue what type of dogs are you working with?
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Gregg
259 posts
Nov 10, 2007
7:49 PM
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Not even the best pair is going to produce all good birds. If it was that easy, we would all just raise progeny from one proven pair. Wouldn't need any thing else because they would all be good ones that produced good ones.
Every once in a while you get a click pair that will produce a "high" percentage of good ones. But we are all still in quest of the holy grail, the "champion." When we quit, our birds will reflect same.
Gregg.
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Windjammer Loft
25 posts
Nov 11, 2007
8:20 AM
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Hey 7... Mostly the Working breeds, those happen to be my favorites. But, I do all types of training with all different breeds. I spent many years in the Schutzhund Sport. I have also worked with the local police & sheriffs departments. Such as building search, riot control, drug detection, bomb detection and tracking. I have done some weight pulling with my American Bulldogs for several years. I do some special needs dogs. Like service dogs for the handicapped. I work with the National Dog Registry
known throughout the U.S.A., which is an organiazation that Tattoos your SS number on the dog for Identification for the purpose for recovery of lost or stolen dogs. Iam an active obedience trainer for over 30 yrs. Which I have training classes now every Monday for the past 20yr. I have a reputation for being able to handel dogs with and aggressive attutide or hard to manage dogs...LOL. I also was a handler in the AKC show ring for many yrs. So,I have personelly witnessed the DOWN fall of many breeds of dogs. Hope this helps out.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 11, 2007 8:25 AM
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