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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Genetics Question
Genetics Question
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siddiqir
69 posts
Oct 10, 2005
12:50 PM
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Any one help.
Blue Bar (cock) x Grizzle (Hen) = ? what color (cock) & ? what color (hen)
Thanks
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Slobberknocker
52 posts
Oct 10, 2005
1:27 PM
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You will get about 50% Blues and 50% Grizzles in both sexes.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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highroller
63 posts
Oct 10, 2005
2:16 PM
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what color is your grizzle hen? assuming it's a blue or brown grizzle the previous post is right on. if it's an ash red grizzle all hens will be blue and all cocks will be ash red with 50% grizzles in both sexes.
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Alan Bliven
250 posts
Oct 10, 2005
7:09 PM
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What if it's a homoz grizzle?
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Alan
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highroller
65 posts
Oct 11, 2005
6:32 AM
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good point Alan,
then as you know, all of the young are going to be grizzles.
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highroller
66 posts
Oct 11, 2005
9:13 AM
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yeah, you are correct. they would be carrying blue but the bird would be red except for the specks on the wings and tail. I didn't want to throw too much info at him at once.
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siddiqir
70 posts
Oct 11, 2005
9:37 AM
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The hen is white with back in it. I got a youngster from this pair (black with white tail and also have black bar but not noticeable like the cock (blue bar). Just try to figure out the sex.
Last Edited by siddiqir on Oct 13, 2005 1:12 PM
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highroller
68 posts
Oct 13, 2005
6:15 PM
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I'm no expert but if the hen is mostly white with black on her as well, I'm guesing she is geneticaly a blue/black bird just like the cock and there would be no telling the sex of their young until they mature.
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Mongrel Lofts
34 posts
Oct 13, 2005
6:43 PM
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Are all genetic questions about color? How are you guys using genetics to make better rollers? Genetics are about the roll aren't they? Are we breeding rollers or colors? How are genetics helping you guys breed better rollers? Just a genetics question that is about making better rollers. Mongrel Lofts
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George Ruiz
62 posts
Oct 13, 2005
6:56 PM
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kenny I wish everyone would breed for color then maybe I could win a fly LOL
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
181 posts
Oct 13, 2005
7:30 PM
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Are all genetic questions about color?
(answer) No, unless that is what you look for in a question. Or unless that is exactly the information you are looking to acquire.
How are you guys using genetics to make better rollers?
(answer) Some use the understanding of character inheritance, others use color balancing and still others use physical and mental appearance. Those are all genetics used to make both good and bad rollers.
Genetics are about the roll aren't they?
(answer) Stupid question, but yes the roll is genetic. I figured a Master Flyer would know this, just as he would have at bare minimum, a decent education in the laws of inheritance in most facets of the pigeon, along with being willing to offer that experienced information onto others who seek knowledge.
Are we breeding rollers or colors?
(answer) Take your pick. Some breed rollers, some breed colors, and still some breed both.
How are genetics helping you guys breed better rollers?
(answer) Any successful and passionate enthusiast of pigeons has/will developed a good understanding of genetics, and will continue to do so for as long as they enjoy the hobby. Some arenas of thought cultivate interest and investigation along with education in a much broader sense than other areas of the pigeon hobby. To be successful in making better rollers, making better color or making better show birds, you must cultivate a growing interest in the entire broad spectrum of genetics. That doesn't mean to the equivelent of earning a bachelor's degree, but to the extent of general understanding. Sometimes that mental library is just good old common sense.
Just a genetics question that is about making better rollers.
Then ask one. This one was in regards to someone wondering what the sex of the offspring of his rollers would be.
Sid, as highroller stated, both parents are blue based, excluding the existence of recessives in both parents, all sexes will be blue or black (given that the hen has black feathering--spread factor) In other words, you won't know until they coo or lay eggs..LOL.
Brian.
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Mongrel Lofts
35 posts
Oct 13, 2005
9:47 PM
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Hi BMC,
So what your saying here is we can't breed roll without understanding genetics. Is this correct, or are you confusing animal husbandry and observation with genetics? Some of the greatest breeders of all animals, the ones who set breeds apart from others, had no understanding of a gene. You see, your using the term genetics, to cover all things bred. If my dog gets under the fence and gets the dog next door pregnant, was I practicing genetics, or is it only if I chose to mate to dogs together that I would be practicing genetics? What gene is it that you look for to make birds roll deeper BMC. Let me guess, you watch your birds fly, you pick the deep ones and mate them. Then say, I was practicing the genetics of deep rolling,, Geeezzz What you are practicing is the art of observation and sporting selection. Genetics is genes, to practice them, you must know what gene is making what you are selecting. Your confusing the art of observation and selection of sporting value, with genetic science BMC, even a color man like yourself can't truly beleive what you do in making better rollers is practicing genetics? Your smarter than that!
I would have to believe that anytime a person picked two animals to mate together, they were practicing genetics. Genetics is about genes and finding those genes and markers on those genes that cause certain results and effects in animals. Everything living has genes, but everything we do with those living things, cannot be put under the header of practicing genetics.. I was born at night, but not last not BMC.
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 13, 2005 9:54 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
182 posts
Oct 13, 2005
10:06 PM
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Then it sounds like you have the answers to your original questions now doesn't it..LOL.
So in essence, your intent, based upon your expressed knowledge of genetics and selective breeding, was more directed at shaming the persons involved in answering a question asked about what sex his youngsters would be based upon the appearance of the parents?
I must have been born last night because it is boldy apparent that anyone who asks or answers questions that involve anything even remotely disconnected from your chosen philosophy will be subjected to harsh criticism. It must be nice to be so confident..LOL.
Brian.
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Mongrel Lofts
36 posts
Oct 14, 2005
5:40 AM
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BMC, I don't understand why you always try to make it sound like I'm attacking people or running them down when I ask questions. To be honest BMC, your the one who always comes at me on the attack. It is obvious to me, that many who breed rollers have made a connection between genetics and breeding for color. When someone puts genetics in the title or question, you can 99.9999% of the time count on the question being about color. Is this not true? I was hoping that my question might just make some others think on that. Why is it when a pigeon breeder says genetics, it automaticly means color? Why is it when a man says, I'm interested in the genetics of rollers, You can bet your ass, he means I'm a color breeder. Genetics in pigeons, is just a code word for I breed for color. You may not like that fact. I don't understand that fact but BMC, It is a fact!! You ever go on a roller fly and watch a humming kits, and have the owner walk over to you and say,, Now the genetic make up or my kit that makes my birds roll, are d-px= rro on the xy chromosone? No you haven't!! we don't breed for better rollers using genetics.We breed for beter rollers by using observation and sporting selection. Just like the great breeders of rollers 200 years ago. When most of them didn't even know what the word genetics meant. I thought my questions might point that out to others BMC. Now go out and fly some genetics and get ready for the Finals would you. Mongrel Lofts
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highroller
69 posts
Oct 14, 2005
6:42 AM
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oh boy, here we go again.............
Hey Sid or anyone else with a simple question like Sid's, next time just go to the NPRA site and ask your question. You'll get answers and we won't re-open this whole can of worms here.
www.performingrollers.com
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siddiqir
78 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:30 AM
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My question is nothing to do with colors or color breeding. I believe the fanciers with genetics knowledge can distinguish sexes when youngsters are in the nest and start getting feathers on (correct me if I am wrong). The Hen I have is white with little black in it (grizzle) not blue bar. The youngster is black with white and also have black bar not really noticeable. Well I will post pictures it may help.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
183 posts
Oct 14, 2005
12:32 PM
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BMC, I don't understand why you always try to make it sound like I'm attacking people or running them down when I ask questions. (I can't expect you to understand, its like asking a politician to be honest)
To be honest BMC, your the one who always comes at me on the attack. (Well someone has to, and I will continue to self appoint myself to engage in such ridiculus comments such as turning a simple question into a "color breeding" question.
It is obvious to me, that many who breed rollers have made a connection between genetics and breeding for color. When someone puts genetics in the title or question, you can 99.9999% of the time count on the question being about color. Is this not true? (If it is true, So F^#%%^@g What! You raise Almond rollers, you know about colors, so lighten up on the guys who ask a question in regards to colors. Most people aren't as pure in thought as you Kenny, and don't care to be so narrow minded when it comes to rollers.)
I was hoping that my question might just make some others think on that. (More power to ya champ)
Why is it when a pigeon breeder says genetics, it automaticly means color? Why is it when a man says, I'm interested in the genetics of rollers, You can bet your ass, he means I'm a color breeder. (Nine times out of ten, they don't mean or imply that is the intent of their question....only YOU do. And for some strange reason it flat out bugs the shit out of you that others discuss topics that are rancid to your soul.)
Genetics in pigeons, is just a code word for I breed for color. (Um, okay Professor Pigeon, the pigeon world and anyone who mentions genetics surrenders to your communist mentality. On second thought, naw we shall simply offer pity)
You may not like that fact. (LOL, your facts mean nothing to me, so like or don't like really doesn't even have a chance.)
I don't understand that fact but BMC, It is a fact!! You ever go on a roller fly and watch a humming kits, and have the owner walk over to you and say,, Now the genetic make up or my kit that makes my birds roll, are d-px= rro on the xy chromosone? No you haven't!! (Well let me see...DUH...and I wouldn't expect to. But if someone asks a question in regards to the genetic inheritance of a pair of rollers, is that a sin? Is it a common questions throughout lofts everywhere? YEP, well at least all but in your's.)
We don't breed for better rollers using genetics.We breed for beter rollers by using observation and sporting selection. Just like the great breeders of rollers 200 years ago. When most of them didn't even know what the word genetics meant. (Sure, an estute knowledge of genetics won't make you breed a champion, but that doesn't stop pigeon people from learning about them and every facet that involves them. Remember champ, we all don't want to be or think like KGB, we might respect him, but we don't want to think like he does)
I thought my questions might point that out to others BMC. (Well others might see the light you offer, but I only see, in this particular context, as a known antagonist turning a simple genetics question into a "if you ask a gene question, you are not a real roller flyer nor will you ever be one")
Now go out and fly some genetics and get ready for the Finals would you. (I most certainly will)
Brian.
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Shaun
134 posts
Oct 14, 2005
12:46 PM
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Am I the only one who feels that Kenny's main point is being missed? It seems he's suggesting that why on a forum, which purports to be predominantly about the performance Birmingham roller, some discussions lend themselves more to the show side of the breed. Or, put another way - if you care predominantly about the performance of your rollers, why concern yourself with what colour this or that pairing will produce?
Shaun
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Alan Bliven
253 posts
Oct 14, 2005
2:54 PM
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When you have two extreme sides of an issue, most of the time the truth is in the middle of the road. In this case both sides have valid points but both sides can get too extreme as well.
The ultra purists push breeding for performance first and they are right. Performance must be bred for first but the fact is a bird of rare color can have both, but only if performance is bred for first. And it's been proven it can happen.
On the other side, if one breeds for color first, performance will quickly go down the tubes because of improper pairings unless proper performance is reintroduced.
Almost all breeds of pigeons had genetic experts that introduced other breeds for certain characteristics, the Roller is no different. The genetics experts went to other breeds for rare colors but bred the proper performance back into them. Like it or not, the last WC winner proved that their time has arrived and that it can and has been done.
Are they impure and not Rollers because somewhere down the line another breed was introduced for color? No, of course not... almost every other breed has done the same thing somewhere down the line. If they can beat the common colored Rollers, their time has come and we must accept it.
How they can reintroduce the performance side is a mystery to me. But I'm not a genetics expert. But they fact remains, they have. I was firmly against it till I seen them winning over common colors... but the bottom line is the proof is in the puddin.
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Alan
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Mongrel Lofts
37 posts
Oct 14, 2005
7:21 PM
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(If it is true, So F^#%%^@g What! You raise Almond rollers, you know about colors, so lighten up on the guys who ask a question in regards to colors.
BMC,
Phantom1 is right, you are the man!! All you guys have my apology for ever asking the question about genetics. I guess you guys know all about how genetics have helped improve the performance of your rollers,, You just can't help me and others understand it. It must just be to hard to explain. Sorry for entering the fray and asking how you use genetics to fly better rollers.
One other thing BMC, I would think even you were smart enough to know I wouldn't have an almond Birmingham roller on my place. Where did you get that dumb ass idea? Mongrel Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
185 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:06 PM
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Kenny, that "idea" came in the form of a quote in the chat room by either you, or someone using the initials KGB, and stating they had an almond come rolling down he had to stop. Then when asked about you having almonds, you (or the imposter using your initals) stated you have had a few almonds for about 20 years.
If that wasn't you, then my apologies to you.
Brian.
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nicksiders
238 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:32 PM
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So, what we are saying is Almonds are not good performers?
Doesn't the WC Champion fly some Almonds?
I am confussed!...................hmmm
How did we produce almonds? What kind of mommy and daddy did they have?
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scotty
7 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:33 PM
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I think it's all about performance.It's nice to have nice colors in the loft.It makes things look nice on a perch.In the air it's kinda hard to see what color a bird is anyways.Color genetic's is nice to know about to get some cool looking birds,and that's ok too.Bars grizzels blue, red mottled pure red, white or blue.to me colors don't make a hill of beans when a bird is ripping a nice fast roll with style.To me at this time, I could not care what colors a bird is.Though it is nice to see some well marked birds.I won't dock someone who is trying to breed for bars or whatever.I think a ballanced bird in my mind is what to breed twards.-Mike
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Mongrel Lofts
38 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:34 PM
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BMC,
I think you are talking about my two pair of parlor rollers. I have had a small family of parlors for the last 20 years. I was talking about a young hen that had locked in and I stopped at 80 feet. I curently have two pair of parlor rollers. I like to keep them around for the kids and friends that come around. One thing, these parlors seam to breed like, much more than rollers do. I mean deep ones make deep ones. Why do you think that is? This family is very inbred but like seams to produce like on a more consistent basis. Something to think about. Mongrel Lofts
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
187 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:46 PM
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Well then that would explain that now wouldn't it..lol.
I had parlors a kid and enjoyed them because we had large groomed pastures that I could roll them in. I would like to have a few again, but I don't have enough grass for them to get very far. If you remember when you were here, there is a lot more dirt than grass--not good for parlor rolling.
I did have an almond parlor old cock when I was high school that produced many pretty good 40-50 footers. Thing was, he could fly and actually got out on me one day and flew off into the sunset never to be seen again.
Brian.
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scotty
8 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:48 PM
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Nick,I would have to agree with you!-Mike
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scotty
9 posts
Oct 14, 2005
8:55 PM
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I used to raise parlor rollers,I was afraid that I was going to step on them.So I gave them to a friend.-Mike
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BR Rollers
18 posts
Oct 14, 2005
10:55 PM
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SID no need to post pictures of your bird. I believe the right answer has been posted already. Your hen seems to be a Black/blue as is your cock bird. You will have to wait until the youngster matures to find out its sex.
What you are thinking is maybe there is a sex link here to determine your younsters sex...well no there isn't in this particular mating.
The sex linked matings can be a little difficult to understand and learn sometimes but can be very nice to determine your babies right in the nest. Sid email me at kpropman@aol.com if you like and I will share my color chart I used to learn from. It is a very simple tool to use and you will learn alot about pigeon COLOR GENETICS.
Ronnie
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siddiqir
80 posts
Oct 15, 2005
9:08 AM
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Here are the pics
Cock
Hen
Youngster (Note the black bar)
Last Edited by siddiqir on Oct 15, 2005 9:10 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
40 posts
Oct 15, 2005
9:19 PM
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Kenny - I don't know what to say man. You are truly one of the NBRC's and Birmingham Roller's finest representatives.
Eric
Why thank you Eric.. Now run along and play with your pretty Mongrels.. Oh and by the way, I don't represent the NBRC. The only one I represent is myself. Nice try though.. Mongrel Lofts
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upcd
46 posts
Oct 15, 2005
9:37 PM
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Are you talking about sex linking babies in the nest? I have also heard it said that if a hen is yellow, she will be able to breed yellow. However if a cock is a different color, he can have yellow hiden.
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Velo99
111 posts
Oct 16, 2005
5:47 AM
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Hey Sid,
Where did you get those pictures of my birds? lol
Hey Kenny, This oughta send you into an epileptic fit bro. I have a 12 tail feathered tumbler in my kit. He rolls 20-30 feet about 3 out of every five times he rolls and is excellent. I was examing my birds one day and happened to remember the tail feather thing, I counted and,gee,I have a tumbler. Fortunately it was the first round from this particular pair. I might breed from him but,it just proves that no matter how careful one is...
Is this bird a roller? Would he qualify to be in a competetion?
YITS
V99
He is the black one in front
Last Edited by Velo99 on Oct 16, 2005 5:56 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
42 posts
Oct 16, 2005
8:37 AM
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Hey Kenny, This oughta send you into an epileptic fit bro. I have a 12 tail feathered tumbler in my kit.
Hey Velo99,
What are you smoking over there? LOL Just how many tail feathers do you think Birmingham rollers have? Hmmmmmmm 12 maybe? LMAO At least you have chose to use another tumbler breed to create your Mongrel crosses of tumbler to roller. Smart move compared to a show coop breed like Ice pigeon x roller. At least both breeds are performance based. Get back to me on how many tail feathers you think a Birmingham roller has. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 16, 2005 8:40 AM
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Alan Bliven
256 posts
Oct 16, 2005
11:41 AM
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Velo,
You lost me on that one. What kind of a Tumbler is it? I can't tell much from the picture.
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Alan
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Mongrel Lofts
43 posts
Oct 16, 2005
1:42 PM
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So it all becomes clear. You really could give a s#$t less about anyone else or providing assistance to someone in need. So go on and keep flapping your gums, I personally feel that you've been revealed for the individual you are and the things you truly stand for.
Nice try on your behalf as well....
Eric
Eric,
Your dislike of me and your stupid accusations mean nothing. You have no idea who I care about and how many I have helped in this sport. Now do you Eric? Guys who fly Birmingham rollers from my pure line of Birmingham rollers, have and do continue to do well and win in major competitions.Can we say the same for you Eric? Sense you really seam to want to make this personal.
I'm trying my best to help others breed better rollers when telling them to stay away from cross bred birds for pretty feathers. I'm trying to help the breed fly higher percentages of good rollers by telling them, those that focus on other things, such as color and trying to put curly feathers on rollers are wasting good rollers on these projects.. If you want better rollers you mate best roller on best roller. Those that play roller but focus on paint jobs and other non performance glitter waste good rollers.
Eric, let me ask you an honest question. If I want a certain color on my rollers. So I go out and get the deepest fastest roller I can find and mate it to a bird of a certain color factor to make the color roll more like the good roller. Is this the best way to make higher percentages of better rollers? Or is it a way to make the color I want roll more like the roller? Do you think this cuts down on the percentage of good roller produced? If I just picked the two best rollers and didn't waste the good roller on a color project, would I breed more or less good rollers?
When you take your focus off the roll and put it on a thing that means nothing to improving the roller in the air, your not doing the Birmingham roller justice. Like breeding for show coops, or frill on the back or crest or COLOR. I fully expect these points will be wasted on you.
I speak for myself Eric, because I don't want the greatest National Club the Birmingham roller has ever known, The NBRC to take the heat or blame for my speaking the truth. There are those like you, that would like to see damage caused to the NBRC for the sake of some new mongrel colored national club. My thoughts are not those of the NBRC but my own thoughts and beliefs about breeding Birmingham rollers. Your free to do as you like Eric, but some of us know a snake in the grass when we see one.. I think now, we both have been exposed for whom we truly are Eric. Your truly, Mongrel Lofts
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birdman
72 posts
Oct 16, 2005
2:56 PM
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Reading this thread reminds me of something.
My neighbor had a big dog that wasn't getting the attention that it was used to (or needed) and developed an annoying habit of continually barking to try and get some attention. Once in a while he would get a friendly pat on the head by someone, and that would quiet him down for a while until he needed some more attention, but before long the annoying barking would resume. Over time he became very hostile to everybody except the ones that he would let pet him. This hostility led to the neighborhood kids purposely trying to make the dog even more mad, and they seemed to take great pleasure in teasing him, which made the dog bark more and more. This went on for a while until the neighbors all got tired of the dog barking and told the kids not to tease the dog anymore. The dog never did stop barking completely but his hostility eventually subsided for the most part,... unless he was goaded by one of the kids that needed a little excitement.
Last Edited by birdman on Oct 16, 2005 3:17 PM
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Velo99
113 posts
Oct 16, 2005
4:44 PM
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It seems to me that no one wants to see Kenny`s point at all. What he is saying is , if the bird was purple as long as he was a great bird and made great little purple birds it could be in his loft. If he was to have to select a red bird and a blue bird to make the purple bird and neither of the parents were his best birds, he would not breed them under any circumstances. He does not condone it in any form and does his best to strongly urge others not to use this practice as well.
MTC YITS
v99
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Fr.mike
32 posts
Oct 16, 2005
5:16 PM
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Gentlemen! Gentlemen! Let us remember Solomon's words--A soft answer turns away wrath--No need to be at each other lets remember this is all about enjoyment and fun!I want to have fun not listen to good men b%$*h at each other!I do learn alot from all of you .Your acumen is much needed by know-nothings like me but i would ask you to not sound like two soccer moms on the field wile their kids are looking on wondering why parents are yelling at each other-when they just want to play!I just want to play!I do appreciate the various oppinions about color and the lack thereof but i donot enjoy the the disdain you great men sometimes have for each other.I know I would love to be in your yards to see them fly! Sorry if I am preachyIt comes with the profession Lol!
Mike
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birdman
73 posts
Oct 16, 2005
6:12 PM
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"Do not grudge others for what you cannot enjoy yourself"
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Alan Bliven
257 posts
Oct 16, 2005
6:15 PM
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Regardless of which side is right, both sides lose when they lower themselves to this kind of feuding. Reminds me of the man who beat the skunk to death but by doing so got the skunk's smell all over himself and ended up smelling as bad as the skunk.
Any little punk can use profanity in public and be narrow minded and intolerant towards another's views.
Listen, this is Tony's forum. We should show him respect and act like gentlemen in it. And please stop the childish profanity in this public place! Maybe he's going to shut the forum down again. I wouldn't blame him if he did.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Oct 16, 2005 6:16 PM
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nicksiders
240 posts
Oct 16, 2005
8:44 PM
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Well....................who is the "big dog" and who is the "little dog"? I have found that sometimes the "little dog" is right which makes the "big dog" wrong............sometimes.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Oct 16, 2005 8:46 PM
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George Ruiz
63 posts
Oct 16, 2005
8:50 PM
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Thats a new one Nick I always thought that a good big dog would always beat a good little dog .
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upcd
48 posts
Oct 17, 2005
12:32 AM
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Hey, Those are some cute babies. What is up with this cat fight? And It is really sad that I was totally ingored! I thought we were talking about genetic away. Don't hate me just because I am a girl.
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J_Star
76 posts
Oct 17, 2005
5:09 AM
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I disagree with you KGB’s early comment that was made. To me it was kind of instigation. Eric, I disagree with either, for one, you seam to only post here when there is a color discussion or think there is an attack on color breeding. With all due respect to both of you gentlemen and the rest of the participants, please no need to go any further in this topic. Thanks.
Jay
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Shaun
136 posts
Oct 17, 2005
10:19 AM
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I was originally attracted to this list as it was entitled words to the effect of "All Birmingham Roller Talk". However, I think it was David, some time ago, who suggested that perhaps these days, Performance Roller would be more appropriate, given the number of people who don't necessarily wish to pursue the 'purist' ideals of the Birmingham roller. I've seen a number of posts actually questioning whether such a roller exists any more, given the generations of breeding since it was first established in America.
But, this is where I have to wave a little flag from the other side of the Atlantic and say it was England that introduced you to the Birmingham Roller. We stopped mucking about with it decades ago, when the consensus was reached that it was as fine a beast as it could get. Yes, a few experiments have been made here and there, but most of the UK flyers swear to have kept things pure for a long, long time.
The UK roller approach doesn't appear different to what has applied all over the world for many animal/bird breeds, whereby a certain standard is agreed upon and adhered to. From what I've read, the South Africans and other passionate roller flying countries have also largely adhered to the original standard, having obtained much of their stock from UK flyers.
The US clearly has a different approach, whereby, for many, the roller never stood still, and remains something of a work in progress.
All I would ask is that some of you appreciate where the likes of Kenny and Scott are coming from. To me, they're simply passionate guys who took the view that the roller was as good as it could get when most tinkering (outside of the US) stopped decades ago; they've been more than content to continue breeding along the same lines, not least because that longstanding heritage has stood the test of time.
Shaun
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nicksiders
242 posts
Oct 17, 2005
11:17 AM
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Shaun - good post.
I understand Kenny, Scott, and the others who get upset when people start to tinker with the Birminghams. A Birmingham Roller should only be mated or paired with a Birmingham Roller period. The problem is if you are spiking the tea you are not easily caught and the only way we can even sence that you have spiked the tea is to present colors that are unusual. So, when people have a strong desire for color and not the roll many of us suspition that you are or would be willing to spike the tea and still call them Birmingham Rollers. Kenny just gets madder then the rest of us....LOL.
It may be that we all should react more like Kenny. If you get angry with his response I am hoping that you get angry enough not to spike the tea. If you are intent on spiking the tea don't tell us you have Birmingham Rollers. Create a new name for them and start your own website.
The Birmingham Roller is all the bird we need.
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George Ruiz
64 posts
Oct 17, 2005
12:17 PM
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Good post Nick I agree
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Oct 17, 2005 12:18 PM
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Ballrollers
91 posts
Oct 18, 2005
7:42 AM
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Nicksider, I just got back from spending a half day with Joe Bob flying and handling birds, and talking rollers. No, he does not have any almonds. I did see just about every other color modifier. I saw red and blue and black, and recessive red and yellow; spread birds of all kinds, khaki, and other dilutes; lots of reduced and indigo and andalusian and opals. Performance was first class in quality, depth, speed and work rate, and there were no stiff holdovers from previous years that were pretty and needed to be culled. In other words, his committment to performance is obvious; in his loft management and his knowledge of every bird; its background and its performance characteristics; as if we didn't already know this from the world champ!!
Your analogy that "showing color modifiers in your birds means you have 'spiked the tea' ", is utter nonsense and displays an ignorance of the history of his base family of rollers, and identifies with an agenda that persists in this ignorance rather than to admit the facts of the quality of their performance. I asked Joe Bob why he used the Turner family (which he calls "South Carolina birds") as the base for his family. It was because in his opinion, these Pensom and Lloyd Thompson-based birds produced by Turner, Greene, Roberts and Simpson had the best quality, depth and speed of any he has seen accross the nation or the world for that matter. And when he does outcross to other families of rollers to make small adjustments in some areas, he may lose quality in other areas of performance and have to breed back to the base family in order to get it back. In other words if he wants to take a line of his family rolling in H-style to an tight A-style that he saw in a Jay Starley line, he might cross it in to improve his quality a tad, yet suffer reduced frequency or depth that he has to try to bring back in from his base. You see, they continue to be the basis for the quality performance in his family, even though they have color modifiers. A few guys out there, like Kenny Billings, has let his agenda about outcrosses from other breeds that occurred 50-75 years ago, confuse his mind. He is still trying to "prove" that importing color modifiers 50-75 years ago has irrepairably damaged the breed forever. I think he must be bored out there in the wilderness. He ignores the consistent wins on the local, regional, national and world-wide basis posted by this family of birds for decades, and deceives himself that they aren't really happening. He is confused because if he sees an andalusian roller, he cries, "color breeder." He is afraid that this bird may be able to perform as well, or better than any of his pedigree birds, and shoot his theories all to hell. He is scared because a kit of this family of birds holds the world record for the number of points scored in 20-bird turn scoring. He is confused because he is so obssessed by this agenda that he fails to recognize that the term "color breeder" refers to the mindset and breeding practices of the loft manager and not the family of birds or even the color modifier. Any one of us could take HIS family of birds, act like a real "color breeder" and breed for baldheads or only selfs or only red checks or only white flighted birds, ignore performance, and with that emphasis, base our breeding decisions on color rather than performance and turn his famliy into doo doo in a short period of time. The reverse is also true. Most of us with any experience at all could also take a fine stud of performers from Jay Yandle, David Strait, or Joe Bob Stuka with their color modifying genes in place, and breed for performance and get a competition level kit. It is the mindset and breeding practices of the loft manager that determines whether he is a "color breeder", not the color of his birds, or his family of birds, or whether or not they are pedigreed, or whether someone added another color modifier 50-75 years ago to the contemporary Birmingham Roller breed. That is unless you have an agenda and are trying to prove some totally irrelevant, cockamamy theory and thus your mind is clouded by ignorance, bigotry, and prejudice. Most of us have moved way past that in the way we relate to people-or pigeons, in this sport. Some have not.
YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 18, 2005 9:00 AM
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Shaun
137 posts
Oct 18, 2005
10:56 AM
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Cliff, I admire your passion from the anti-purist side; you argue your case with conviction. However, as an Englishman, I remain confused by certain issues and would welcome further comments from any of you.
If the colours Cliff etc mentions were introduced that long ago, why are they a nonentity in England? Everything I've seen over here, be it in pictures or the dozens of birds I now have in my loft, are all 'standard' colours, which have existed for decades - certainly, back to Pensom's time.
You guys repeatedly mention this year's US World Cup winner and his methods, but you fail to mention that Englishman Pete Handy won last year's World Cup, with birds which hadn't been 'retouched' at all - his stock goes back a very long way - to Pensom's era - and consists of the usual very standard colours. The same can be said of any number of the current major flyers in the UK and many other countries also.
The question I keep on asking - and haven't had any sort of answer to - is this: Why does the US treat the Birmingham Roller as some sort of work in progress - a moving target, when outside of the US, the Birminham Roller largely conforms to the standard which existed many decades ago and continues to compete on the world stage?
So, yes, you are probably right in saying that over the years, some have managed to cross this and that with the Birmingham Roller and have eventually arrived at a point where performance is on a par with the original Birmingham Roller. Yet, a great many outside of the US (and some purists within) have quietly persevered with the original and continue to enjoy the same type of success.
I can certainly see the attraction of pigeon totty - for example, Brian McCormick has some fantastic looking show West of England Tumblers - but, coming back to performance rollers, what has been the point in risking the purity of the original Birmingham Roller?
Put another way, let's imagine I'm about to put a bird in your left hand and a bird in your right. The one in the left is certainly very colourful, but with dubious heritage. Nevertheless, its performance is worthy of any kit.
The bird in your right hand is from a line of Birmingham Rollers which has remained true for the past 50 years or so. It has only ever been bred with other Birmingham Rollers. It is also a very solid performer.
Which bird would you prefer in your own loft?
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, as I'm trying hard to keep an open mind. But, for the life of me, so far, I just don't get it.
Shaun
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Ballrollers
92 posts
Oct 18, 2005
11:05 AM
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Hey, Scott, Been missin' you on the other lists. I figured you were busy flying rollers instead of talkin' about 'em! LOL First, go back and re-read the edit to my post above. That will answer some of your question. It is not clear to me whether your beef is against the entire family if birds carrying color modifiers, the individual bird carrying any modifier genes, or the breeder who chooses to work with this family of Birminghams. It is also not clear which color modifying genes you accept and which you reject. As I have said many times before, a pairing of Andalusians can produce black selfs or white flights, blue checks, indigos or more andys. (Same with some of the other modifiers) These can in turn produce more indigo, andy, black or blue checks. In the red side you can do the same and produce ash red andys or ash red checks. So aren't these all color birds in your mind, regardless of what they look like, since they carry color modifiers, or "mongrel blood" in your slang vernacular? That is my point with Joe Bob. He points to a black white flight and says this is the fastest bird I have ever seen; A-type quality, 30 ft. and twice a minute. He's carrying reduced or he's out of an Indigo hen with blinding speed. He is 15/16ths South Carolina and 1/16th Starley. He's small and typey for a cock and is going in the stock pen to see if he produces the same. He flew in the A kit. Is this a color bird in your mind? To Joe Bob, and to me I might add, it's irrelevant.It does not seem to be relevant to you and to Kenny, however. You only seem to see what happened 50-75 years ago to bring in the color modifier, not the performance of the bird today.
You asked, "Is the mongrel blood washed out ot a degree when bred strictly for performance and they revert back?" I'll tell Joe Bob you asked during his 20-bird fly, and get his response. But if they can still produce a blue lace or an andy or an indigo, from the bird, what do you think???? And of course he claims not to be a color breeder. He is not. Though the base of his family has all the modifiers whose presence in the breed you are so concerned about. (Again, see my post above about the definition of a color breeder) You asked about khaki, the dilute of blue. It's been in the breed for decades and in Pensom's birds. I am sure it was a random occurrence for Joe Bob, and not a "project".
I flew two 11-bird kits in the Fly, the second just for the numbers (all andalusians, I might add LOL) We flew in tropical storm Tammy, like the guys in the northeast are dealing with. I pulled my best hen and trigger bird for the kit, because she was molting most of her tail and 10th flights and had been coming down early that week. Rain was steady but no wind. The birds came out working well but wouldn't go up in the rain. Some of the deeper andys rolled through trees but came out and back to the kit. The rain made them act wierd and one or two began to stray from the kit. Normally they kit like glue. The bird that I had substituted in place of my best hen rolled through a tree and stayed in. From there on, I was flirting with a DQ with every deep roll in the trees. With one down, any others that strayed in the rain halted the scoring. But they flew the time and scored about half of what I thought they could do based on previous performance in the week. Final score-102 pts; 2 bonus points for speed and 4 for depth. The B-kit flew in a hard driving rain, 8 1/2 minutes and DQd. So it was soggy, but fun! YITS Cliff
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