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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birmingham roller = Performance?
Birmingham roller = Performance?
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Shaun
250 posts
Jan 16, 2006
6:05 AM
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Point taken, David. But, I'm not advocating that people keep on quoting Pensom or dwelling unduly as to what his thoughts and stance would be nowadays; such matters can only be pure conjecture. I'm simply suggesting that they should stop taking certain passages from his book to support their stance or arguments, whilst conveniently excluding those passages which would clearly not support them.
You are right about Tom Monson, a man who's knowledge I greatly admire. However, from his posts elsewhere, he clearly has the heritage of the Birmingham Roller very close to his heart and has shown no support for colour breeding. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
648 posts
Jan 16, 2006
7:57 AM
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Shaun.Let me ask you a question.In your Loft of rollers if an off color such as Reduced or Indigo or anything odd other than what you normally see would you Cull the roller or would you fly it out to see if it would roll? David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 16, 2006 7:58 AM
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motherlodelofts
562 posts
Jan 16, 2006
8:06 AM
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Why would those even pop up Dave ? your talking about if another breed was in the loft and a roller got topped by it right ? otherwise its a silly question that I guess only you guys understand.
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Shaun
251 posts
Jan 16, 2006
8:10 AM
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David, I'm not sure why you've asked me that question. You've made no bones about being a colour breeder, so you would regularly expect to see odd colours, as would all the other chaps who've either actively colour bred, or knowingly obtained stock from those who did. However, my stock is from George Mason and his various sub-families of birds all so inbred that some of the offspring are virtual clones of each other, colour-wise. If an odd colour cropped up, I would take advice, probably from the man himself. But, no, my first reaction wouldn't be to cull it; but that's because I have no reason to believe other than George's birds haven't been crossed with any other type of pigeon over the years.
What are you trying to wheedle out of me, you old devil?
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
649 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:09 AM
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Shaun.I wasn't trying to wheedle anything out of you.LOL.Just wanted to know if it happened if you would cull it because of a throwback from years ago or if you would fly it out to see if it was any good.You gave an honest answer and I think George would tell you to fly it out and see too. David
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J_Star
184 posts
Jan 16, 2006
10:39 AM
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I would fly it out. I don't discriminate against color just because it was born with a different color than the norm.
I think the whole argument is not against the far and few in between who breed their performance rollers that have color modifier existed in them. Rather about the color breeders who breed for color only and pass the birds as performance rollers who can stand up to any good Pensom type roller for the unsuspected new people.
So, coming out of the three pages post in regard color birds is nothing but arguing that some, yes some, color birds are of worthy competition birds. I agree with that and I agree with the percentages that are very small when somebody breeds from color pairs.
If anybody wants to compete with the best, they know what they need to do. Whether to get a kit of winners that has colored birds or not, just do it.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 16, 2006 10:40 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
650 posts
Jan 16, 2006
11:06 AM
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Jay .Good Post.And that is why I have been trying for 2 years to convince Scott & Kenny to put some color blood into their kits and get them loosened up some.LOL. David
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Purist Loft
1 post
Jan 16, 2006
3:33 PM
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Gregg,
Good post. I have been sitting back watching these posts (just found the site a couple days ago) and find both sides having some interesting ideas. However, I would like to raise a couple questions if I may....
First, I have no odd colored birds in my loft. I breed performance only. That said, I can only attest as to what I have as being the "real deal" by the guy who got me started. If I have no written record, how can I tell without any shadow of a doubt if what I have is the true Birmingham Roller and nothing has ever been crossed into them since the breed was created? If someone knows how I can tell, please advise.
Next, I read in Winners with Spinners where George Mason is quoted as saying he would never breed two Blacks together or two Blues together. If this is true, wouldn't he be color breeding?
Bluesman raised a good question about what to do if an odd color pops up in ones loft. I am no geneticist, but I do know that odd colors do pop up in every breed from time to time, that is why we have these colors today. It would seem to me that it is possible for this anomaly to happen in even the most hardcore lofts. I, for one, would fly the bird out. If it came out pink with purple dots and rolled the way it was supposed to, it would have a place in my stock loft no matter what anyone said.
These are just some thoughts that came to me while reading here. I hope not to offend anyone.
RD
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Phantom1
98 posts
Jan 16, 2006
3:40 PM
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Hey Shaun,
"So, on my part, I remain confused by your collective stance."
The only "collective stance" I can see for myself, David, Cliff, Bob, etc... is that we all have rollers that we enjoy. I don't mate my birds to produce something that David is going to wet himself over. Nor does Bob do that for a reaction out of me. We each have a goal in mind and I'm certain they are all individualized to some extent.
Color V.S. Performance. I feel this should sum up every last word and/or debate. Would "we" be having this conversation here, on this forum, if we weren't flying our birds just as everyone else is and trying to improve the performance and quality just as everyone else is? It would be completely different and I'd have no ground to stand on if I were just a guy with some pigeons that "looked like rollers" and were pretty colors, and I never flew them.
No, we have nothing to prove and nothing to lose. But from which side of the debate did the challenge arise? And the point has been made about all we talk about is the rare colored birds and how well they're doing. Um, YEAH! "Hey buddy, I banded ANOTHER BLUE-CHECK today!!!" YIPPEE!!! But I guess we wouldn't be having that conversation either becuase nobody really gives a rat's ass about a Barless Blue Milky Reduced Pencil either :-)
There are those that could really care less what their birds are or aren't on the perch. It's a matter of best to best within what they have to work with. If I only started with Blue-Checks and Recessive Reds and were happy with them, I lay you the odds that I would only be raising Blue-Checks and Recessive Reds. Of course there lies that chances of any number of mutations coming out - regardless of what one might believe or not. But those that kid themselves and say that they make matings with NO consideration on color or pattern need to wake up. Scott has said before that he dislikes White Flights. I'm not certain about his breeding habits or how he makes some decisions, but if he bred away from it, he would in turn to some degree be a color breeder. Likewise, I have an article written by George Mason in which he states that he would never mate two Blue-Checks or Black together. He says, "Don't ask me to explain it, I just wouldn't do it".
But the overall response to you not understanding a collective stance, I hope is a bit more explained. Honestly, it's none of my business what you or anyone else is doing with your birds. If you have something available that I can effectively interject into my bloodline, that's when I would have a vested interest in what you're doing in your loft.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 16, 2006 4:33 PM
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motherlodelofts
563 posts
Jan 16, 2006
4:14 PM
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Eric wrote :
Scott has said before that he dislikes White Flights.
Eric I don't get white flights out of my birds but I may get a mixed flight bird here and there , it isn't that I don't like them , when you fly a white flighted bird in a kit of birds where there are no other white flights that bird becomes a "focus" magnet.
I had one little white flighted badge about seven or eight years ago that was about as good as it gets , man she was awsome, I made the mistake of trading her off and I still think of her today and kick myself for trading her off, I thought the trade was good at the time and this bird was a real eye catcher on club flys and I knew that little hen would make the deal happen, funny now I can't even remember what I traded that little hen for but I still think of that hen.
I remember when she was first coming into the roll , I live on the side of a hill and my loft faces like a Valley you go straight out a hundred yards from my backyard and it probably drops in elevation a hundred to a hundred fifty feet, sometimes the birds come straight towards you at eye level over the valley (kinda trippy when they are hoofing it) anyway here comes this little badge hen at eye level just jammin towards the kitbox that I was standing in from of , all the sudden she hits a spin and the momentom had her spinning straight towards me and I caught her like a ball LOL If I wasn't there she would have probaby broke her neck from slamming the "front" of the kitbox.
Scott
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Pali View Lofts
12 posts
Jan 16, 2006
4:24 PM
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Instead, now he has his cronies twisting and distorting what occured and what was intended, as usual, in order to support their agenda. It represents a disusting and revulsive aspect of some of the men in the hobby. It is no wonder that this crap contributes to the loss of more roller men from the sport than hawks, disease, or even death.
Disgusted,
Cliff
Some people take the high road while others take the low road.
YES.....disgusted,
Pali View Lofts
PS MotherLodeLofts....how's the view looking down at Ballrollers?
Last Edited by Pali View Lofts on Jan 16, 2006 4:26 PM
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Phantom1
99 posts
Jan 16, 2006
4:26 PM
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Scott,
Sounds like a humdinger of a bird! As you point out, you have a "stance" on birds with white in them when you compare them to a kit of birds that are selfs. Right? I see your point fully! If I were flying 19 blue selfs and one blue with white flights, I could easily see how the latter would stand out. I fly a mix, but prefer selfs on the perch. Whatever they do in the air is a different qualifier between it getting dinner that night or the freezer. LOL!
I guess my question - to the pursuance of clarification for Shaun - did you trade her off because she had white flights and was badge marked? Or did you trade her off because you needed more the bird(s) you received in return?
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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motherlodelofts
564 posts
Jan 16, 2006
4:39 PM
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Eric I traded her off because she didn't fit into the breeding program and was from outside of the family , she could have been a dark checker and the same move would have been made.
Hind sight is 20/20 but I should have tried her and possibly worked a line around her, that is if she could have produced birds of her caliber.
Scott
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Phantom1
100 posts
Jan 16, 2006
4:54 PM
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Excellent reasoning for the decision you made! Thus that scenario clearly does not apply to Shaun's initial question. Personally, I think it's going to be hard to find anyone that will say that they ONLY breed for color and nothing more - especially on this site. We're all working in our own directions, but performance is the key behind everyone's intentions. Just the way one goes about it is the difference as I see it. Again, I have no business knowing what you are doing with your breeding program unless I'm wanting some direction on what's working for you...and potentially adopting it for my own use. I'll be open and honest - I have NO strategy at this time. I'm getting birds that were proven in the air and putting them together. All young are flown out and we go forward from there. Nobody else should give a hoot what you do, I do, Cliff does, or Shaun does. It's not as though anything we'd say to one another would sway us to do something different eh?
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Gregg
6 posts
Jan 16, 2006
5:08 PM
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RD,
1. No records. You have only the work and word of the man that you purchased your birds from. In reality, paper or not, that is all any of us have. That and the common sense to see it in the air before we take it home. Even if you have been fortunate in you acquistion, you aren't going to get over ten to twenty percent birds that will end up in your final A team kit. Note that is from exeptional birds, the percentage that is. Just keep breeding, flying, selecting the best and culling the rest. And never let a bird go as a breeder that you would not want in your own breeding loft.
2. George is trying to avoid the stiff. Constant breeding of certain colors, especially self's tends to strengthen the character of some birds in some families. This strength of character and physique tends to make some performers better able to resist the spin. This varies from family to family and from fancier to fancier. Years as a breeder and manager help to define and refine what works within a certain family of birds. This is all but a reflection of the fancier making the selections, his biases and his dislikes.
3. What to do if an odd color pops out? The likelihood of that happening in your loft are remote to say the least.
Don't be confused by the biased B.S. from either side. I am a performance minded(to the nth degree) color breeder and I have never had one just pop out. Some of the colors have been in these birds for fifty to seventy years, some for thirty to forty, some for ten to fifteen years and some have been in the roller since the inception of the breed. KGB, Scott and a few of their cronies would have you believe that there are continuous outcrosses to wild and spectacularly fiendish breeds. The fact of the matter is that I know where some toy stencil projects are ongoing as we converse, having twenty five years in the making. The complex gene series such as toy and frill stencil, ice pigeons, etc are very difficult to do and require large numbers, inordinate amounts of room and lofts, lots of money, etc. But some have the time, the room and the money to accomplish same.
The reality is that there are only a few complex gene series out there. The rest are relatively simple modifiers that affect the ash red, blue and brown pigeon. Those are the three sex-linked colors. There are other sex-linked modifiers, but they in combination with one of the three colors to create different shades and hues. Some of these factors are not sex-linked and are autosomal, meaning that they are dispensed on an independent basis. The sex-linked colors and modifiers are tied to the linkage and follow specific biological inheritance rules. The autosomal genes(modifiers)segregate independently and follow an inheritance scenario that can be mathematically determined.
All modifier(genes) are either dominant, partial dominant or recessive in nature. All are taken into account on the genotype(gene map), some are taken into account on the phenotype(outward appearance of the bird)depending on their dominance or recessiveness.
I'm getting long winded enough right now and if you are new to rollers, you will have a problem following everything that I wrote.
What I will tell you is that every modifier to some degree enhances or detracts from a bird. Some add to a birds longevity, some decrease its longevity. None affect the birds ability to spin. What they do is affect the strength of the birds mental and physical attributes and the way that bird is able to cope with the spin. Thus when you decide to breed to some degree for color, you accept another level of challenge. It's not for everyone. It requires study, years of it. Those that continually breed to produce colors only are tearing the fabric of the roller apart and doing a dis-service to the hobby. Due to it's inherent strengths and robustness and diminutive size, the roller is a popular breed for the average backyard colorist who likes to play with colors. It is when he sell same as Birmingham Rollers that he hurts our hobby.
Those that maintain color within their stud successfully tend to do it without maintaining huge numbers of same. They select for the champion individual and breed same to a normal colored bird that may be carrying that genetic gene. I didn't say that right. Momma is a recessive color and you mate her to a normal cock. The young cocks will be normal colored and carry the recessive gene. I can, for example, carry reduced or dilute in my birds for quite a few generation if I desire. Dominants are going to express irregardless, but the general opinion is not to breed them together, either. One can, but at their own risk. That risk varies for different genes from nothing to lethal dominants when two genes pair in the egg and the youngster dies therein.
I would encourage everyone that raises pigeons to study genetics in that it will help them understand their chosen hobby. I will also encourage that person to pursue a color or two if they desire. But learn what your breed of pigeon is all about before you get your toes wet, especially if that breed is the highly touted Birmingham Roller. It takes years to become proficient at breeding and successfully flying a kit of Birmingham Rollers. Spend a few years getting a grip on that package before you try the colors.
Sad to say this old body has to return to work tomorrow after an eight week hiatus. Will come back as I have the time, just wont be able to instantly answer questions. Ask and I will try to get to them eventually.
Gregg.
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Purist Loft
2 posts
Jan 16, 2006
5:51 PM
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Gregg,
Thank you for the reply. If I understand correctly from what you are saying, it is possible to have the colors AND breed for performance? There are some who say it is not even possible to do this.
One other thing I have noticed from this discussion, the "color breeders" never mention anything negative or untowards about the "purists" birds. However, the "purists" are quick to label the other guys birds as "mongrels" or "crossbreeds". I assume these guys have firstahnd knowledge of what the other guys are doing, right?
I assume, from this debate, that Ballrollers doesn't know a lot about MotherLode's birds as he has not ever really mentioned the quality. However, I must assume that MotherLode has firsthand knowledge (seen with his own eyes) what Ballrollers has and is doing in his loft in order for him to say some of the things that have been said, right? Just wondering.
RD
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Mongrel Lofts
109 posts
Jan 16, 2006
6:03 PM
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Hey Shaun,
"So, on my part, I remain confused by your collective stance."
The only "collective stance" I can see for myself, David, Cliff, Bob, etc... is that we all have rollers that we enjoy. I don't mate my birds to produce something that David is going to wet himself over. Nor does Bob do that for a reaction out of me. We each have a goal in mind and I'm certain they are all individualized to some extent.
(((( Eric, true to a point.. You guys all have one thing in common and a common front on one thing. Making sure the new guys getting into the sport, do not understand what color breeding is really all about. There are two kinds of color breeding going in the roller breed today.. 1.One is practiced in many lofts and within the breed of Birmingham roller.. It is really called color balancing like George Mason mentioned.. This consist of not breeding two hard colored birds together or two many generations of soft colored birds., Its based on mixing the colors,, Like ash red to blue and selves to marked birds.. Things along this nature, but all within the breed of Birmingham roller.This is based on weaker and stronger character being connected to hard and soft colors within the breed Birmingham roller!!!
2. Is about cross breeding the roller on other breeds for a color factor or pattern.. Not about breeding a dark check on red check w/f for color balancing.. It is about crossing the Birmingham roller on other breeds of pigeons to get color,factors and Patterns not found within the Birmingham roller breed.
You guys all do your best to make guys think anyone who breeds anything but a blue bar, is color breeding just like you are.. This is the smoke screen and on purpose misleading of anyone you can confuse. This is why we have the battle and debate we have,, because of the lack of honesty and twisting of what color breeding really is.. One is color balancing and deals with Birmingham rollers.
The other is about getting color, factors and patterns from other breeds of pigeons. like Milky, toy stencil, indigo, barless and the list goes on. These and some others are bred from crossing rollers on other breeds and then breeding for the factors,colors and patterns of the other breeds while trying to get them rolling again.. Its the bringing in the color from other breeds of pigeons that separated the two forms of color breeding. These two forms of color breeding have little to nothing in common!!You guys do your best to confuse the new comer and hope they think everyone who breeds a red white flight badge is breeding color. What a load of CRAP! You guys know it!!!))))
Color V.S. Performance. I feel this should sum up every last word and/or debate. Would "we" be having this conversation here, on this forum, if we weren't flying our birds just as everyone else is and trying to improve the performance and quality just as everyone else is? It would be completely different and I'd have no ground to stand on if I were just a guy with some pigeons that "looked like rollers" and were pretty colors, and I never flew them.
((((Eric, this is where I agree with you guys 100%.. Those rare color breeders that are flying the birds hard and trying to make them roll good, Have my respect as far as flying the birds to test them out for roll.. They should name their cross bred for color breed of roller so we can end this debate and move onto seeing how good you guys can make the new rare colored roller breed.. Name it and claim it.. Stop being ashamed of your creation and trying to say the cross breeding didn't happen and even if it did,, It could have popped up in the breed one day anyway .. Why not name your colored American breed of roller? WHY NOT?))
No, we have nothing to prove and nothing to lose. But from which side of the debate did the challenge arise? And the point has been made about all we talk about is the rare colored birds and how well they're doing. Um, YEAH! "Hey buddy, I banded ANOTHER BLUE-CHECK today!!!" YIPPEE!!! But I guess we wouldn't be having that conversation either because nobody really gives a rat's ass about a Barless Blue Milky Reduced Pencil either :-)
(((( I care, I care that some poor fool never mistakes one of them cross breds for a Birmingham roller.. I care that the ice pigeon not be added to the blood of the Birmingham roller... Eric, when the guy made the first cross onto an ice pigeon for Milky or whatever factor they were after.. Was that cross made to make better rollers, or to add the factor or color of the ice pigeon? There in lies the real meaning of color breeding.. It can not be confused with breeding Birmingham rollers!! ))))
There are those that could really care less what their birds are or aren't on the perch. It's a matter of best to best within what they have to work with. If I only started with Blue-Checks and Recessive Reds and were happy with them, I lay you the odds that I would only be raising Blue-Checks and Recessive Reds. Of course there lies that chances of any number of mutations coming out - regardless of what one might believe or not. But those that kid themselves and say that they make mating's with NO consideration on color or pattern need to wake up. Scott has said before that he dislikes White Flights. I'm not certain about his breeding habits or how he makes some decisions, but if he bred away from it, he would in turn to some degree be a color breeder. Likewise, I have an article written by George Mason in which he states that he would never mate two Blue-Checks or Black together. He says, "Don't ask me to explain it, I just wouldn't do it".
(((( You see,, this is the twist and lie that the color breeder tries to get the uninformed to believe.. DO you really think saying don't breed two blue checks or blacks together, is the same thing as crossing a roller on an ice pigeon for color factor? Do you really think Mason was talking about Mongrel cross bred milky and indigo, when he was talking about color balancing.. Of course you know better.. TRUTH this type of deception is NOT!!!)))))
But the overall response to you not understanding a collective stance, I hope is a bit more explained. Honestly, it's none of my business what you or anyone else is doing with your birds. If you have something available that I can effectively interject into my bloodline, that's when I would have a vested interest in what you're doing in your loft.
(((( I doubt it Eric, its as clear as mud.. Just like always... Mongrel Lofts..))))
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jan 16, 2006 7:13 PM
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JWM65
2 posts
Jan 16, 2006
7:32 PM
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JD
I got a question for you. Without the "purist" what breed of pigeon would the cross breeders use to get their birds to perform? Not many options, mabe the parlor roller. Next time you cross breeders meet a "purist" in person you need to kiss their ass, without them you probably be out there screwing up the racing hommer.
JWM65
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
340 posts
Jan 16, 2006
7:49 PM
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DOH...excuse me I think I just threw up a little bit in my mouth after reading that JM...lol.
This topic=disease
The cure=common sense.
End of story.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jan 16, 2006 7:49 PM
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knaylor
44 posts
Jan 16, 2006
8:04 PM
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JWM65, that gives me a great idea. Lets take some parlors and cross them with homers. The offspring we will fly out and call them Birmingham rollers. I am also sure they would do good in the 11 bird fly. LOL
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Gregg
7 posts
Jan 16, 2006
8:11 PM
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RD,
I said it was possible and another level of challenge. It is possible and I am living proof of same. Sorry, I haven't been into the competition part of it in a big way. We are going to rectify that in the coming years. Heck I have only had a computer now for a year and seven months. Just getting good at that too. But I have had some very serious high quality kits in my back yard over the years. And there are enough people out there that have seen them that I don't have to go on about them. But don't for a minute think that it is easy. That is why I love it.
Labelling is a nice word for the misinformation dispersion machine. Neither Cliff nor Scott and or KGB have sat in Cliff's back yard or vice versa. Draw your own conclusions.
MotherLode ie Scott has never seen Cliff's birds with his own eyes. Again, draw your own conclusions.
I see that KGB is back at it trying to get us to select another name for our birds because he doesn't think that we deserve the label Birmingham Roller. He wants to be able to stand on the mount and proclaim to the world that as the saviour of the breed, that he has forced us to change the name of our birds. That is only his first step. Once we would accede to that demand, I assure you, he would have another. Once he had us re-named the next move would be to attempt to remove us from the NBRC in that we no longer raised Birmingham Rollers.
I see that Robert Krenz has forced off any color breeders from the veloroll list. Some one is exerting pressure because? Perhaps they feel threatened by a color roller breeder potentially beating them in competition? I don't understand it. If these mongrels are that inferior, why are they feeling so threatened? Again, draw your own conclusions.
I hate to belabour the point. One more time. I haven't flown competition much because I put sixty to seventy hours in every week in a semi. Rather difficult to train a kit adequately on those hours. Second, I am re-building my family of birds since a disastrous viral scourge took out ninety percent of my breeders. Third, keeping kits together has been a roya B*%^& living on a major migratory flyway, namely the Illinois River. Everything coming down from Wisconsin along Lake Michigan funnels into the river and they follow same down to the Mississippi flyway. It's become a really difficult place to fly. So I am going to have to become a seven and a half month flyer and lock down the rest of the time.
Gregg.
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motherlodelofts
565 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:26 PM
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Gregg wrote :
I see that Robert Krenz has forced off any color breeders from the veloroll list. Some one is exerting pressure because?
That is good news Gregg !!!! I heard the same from a buddy just tonight that just rejoined due to it and I told him to add me back on also, everyone got tired getting these mongrals shoved down their throat by those (these) clowns and all the good experianced roller guys started dropping off , it is good to see Robert get a handle back on it.
As for pressure , I think that he just got tired of the bozos that were running everyone off and wanted to get the list back to where it was with just a lot of good Birmingham Roller talk.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 16, 2006 10:31 PM
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centralvalleylofts
27 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:28 PM
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i have a question where the hell is cliff now since the bet is back on the table.or did he run out to the nearest tree branch afraid of the roll just like his birds.
come on cliff is this on or not...and stop hiding you chicken shit and post if you dare without any concern about lossing your money.
steve
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
342 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:28 PM
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I wonder if he will kick me off too because I have some andalusians?
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motherlodelofts
566 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:40 PM
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Of coarse not Brian, you always contribute real performance stuff, where they don't , they just wanted to talk and shove those birds down everyones throat.
It got old and everyone started dropping , there was a lot of experiance on there that they could have drawn off of.
I don't think that they understood the value of the experiance that was on there , he didn't throw them off, they threw themselves off.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 16, 2006 10:02 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
110 posts
Jan 16, 2006
9:50 PM
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I see that KGB is back at it trying to get us to select another name for our birds because he doesn't think that we deserve the label Birmingham Roller. He wants to be able to stand on the mount and proclaim to the world that as the saviour of the breed, that he has forced us to change the name of our birds. That is only his first step. Once we would accede to that demand, I assure you, he would have another. Once he had us re-named the next move would be to attempt to remove us from the NBRC in that we no longer raised Birmingham Rollers.
Hi Gregg,
I don't understand what makes you take this leap.. Gregg, the NBRC rules don't state any certain breed of roller must be flown in competition.. The rules say, this competition is for rollers not tumblers.. You could fly a kit of Oriental rollers and if they were the best rollers in the NBRC national fly,, they would win.. THERE IS NO RULE saying what kind of roller can fly in the competitions,, Either in the NBRC or in the World Cup.. You can get over that make believe.. It's just not based in any reality..
Gregg, honestly this is your guys own made up BOOGEY MAN.. I want you to name your new breed of roller because they are a new breed of roller.. I always want us to fly and compete against each other in flys.. When you win a big fly with your rare colored rollers and I have no doubt you will do that.. Most of them will probably be blue bars and blue checks, but that's another issue,,, LOL
Gregg, what I want is the breed Birmingham roller to be considered a breed and respected as a breed.. I would have no problem with the cross bred for rare color rollers getting that same respect for their own breed. I honestly don't understand the reasoning behind insisting the new cross breds being called the same as the Birmingham roller that was brought to this country. They were a breed set in another country as a breed..The Birmingham roller has a rich history in the black country of England. That history does not include toy stencil, pencil and milky factors crossed into the breed for color. I'm not telling you what to do Gregg. I'm just suggesting that naming the new cross bred for different colors, factors and patterns not found in the Birmingham roller breed, Is the right and honest thing to do.. It would tell everyone what kind of roller has been created and that a new breed of roller has been created.. Instantly giving that new breed respect and doing away with the divide we see now in the sport.. It would protect the Birmingham roller as a breed and let it continue as the breed many of us love and respect as a breed... Why does Naming the creation threaten those that have created a new breed of American rare colored competition roller? Gregg, once the new breed of roller has been named, the Mongrel title goes away!! Is that what you really fear? LOL You know I'm just kidding there.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jan 16, 2006 9:59 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
651 posts
Jan 17, 2006
3:38 AM
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Kenny.I have a great idea.And it would stop all this Color debating forever.Why don't you lead a crusade to change the Standard of the Birmingham Roller.It has never changed since its first inception.Why don't you get a standard set up to include the Colors that are accepted as a Birmingham Roller.That way it would force all of us out that are raising Indigo,Andalusian.Reduced,Opal,Pencil,Almond,Faded,Milky,etc.Every breed of pigeon I know has a written standard of what is allowed in that breed.Why couldn,t you get a standard for the Pure Birminghams set up?Just form a commitee of people and do it and that would be the end of it.We breeders that have Color Rollers would be let out in the cold.You know we are not going away so you may as well get this underway.Your Color Breeder friend.David
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Purist Loft
3 posts
Jan 17, 2006
4:44 AM
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I am learning the more I read. Most importantly, some truths here.
I am finding that those who are labeled as "color breeders" seem to be the most respectful people on this group. The other side seems to like the name calling and cursing as though they think this is helpfl to their cause.
Also, if there is a desire to change the name and split the breed as has been so clearly reported here, then Bluesman is right, write a standard for the Birmingham Roller that includes a complete list of acceptable colors. If the bird does not fall under that color, it cannot be called a Birmingham Roller. You might also want to have an initiation for the new NBRC that would require people to prove what they have. Everyone would get a loft inspection. You would also need to have in writing a way for people to prove exactly what they have so they can be considered into the club.
Maybe the "color breeders" (which I am having more respect for every day) should rename their birds, write their own standard to accept ALL colors and modifiers, and drop out of the NBRC. Once they do this, they can re-name their birds to whatever suits them. I guess the committess should be formed.
I, for one, cannot prove that my dark checkers, ash reds, and recessive reds are true Birmingham Rollers. It would be interesting to meet someone who can.
RD
PS...rather than get deeper into this debate, I will bow out here and refrain from any further posts. I enjoy my birds for what they are, not for what someone else thinks they are.
Last Edited by Purist Loft on Jan 17, 2006 4:46 AM
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C.J.M.
1 post
Jan 17, 2006
4:46 AM
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O.K. I have sat here since this whole thing started AGAIN and read the posts without saying a word. Then finally I decided to throw my two cents in the ring. Anyone who has been around any of the pigeon forums knows Scott is very very passionate about his Birmingham Rollers and he tends to get a little over zealous. My take is that he would never discourage anyone from getting into the roller fancy. But if you ask him or some of the other guys in here their opinion, like it or not they are going to give it to you without strings attached and with both barrels. I feel that this is what keeps this site interesting. If scott disappears for awhile then things get stale and everyone starts looking for him. Personally even though my birds are not what you would call coloured birds I don't care. What keeps a bird in my loft is the roll and only the roll ( and my obsession with them). As for its colour I couldn't care less one way or the other. I also know and respect guys who breed for colour. They are your birds, your time and your hobby who am I say how you spend your time and money. If that is what makes the hobby enjoyable to you then do it. Hell if that is whatever it takes to get people hooked.I personnally have had my family of birds for 27 years in a closed loft. So I know where they are coming from but that is what I prefer. Plus where I am located there isn't a whole lot of guys in to the hobby. Scott has been saying for years that he would put his birds against anyones and I whole heartly believe he would. On the other hand I don't think it is fair to start ridiculing a guy who takes up that challenge and asks for clarification on the specific rules such as DQ's and others. Some guys in here have taken it as their own personal mission to take sides and be little people withy different beliefs and goals. Give me a break. I applaud anyone who is passionate enough to put up five grand and throw their birds in the air against another team. When it is all said and done if you get up in the morning and feel good about the birds you have in your loft then go to bed and dream about them at night that is all that matters. AS LONG AS YOU ENJOY YOUR BIRDS then everyone else,s opinion is just that, an opinion. I have said it before and I will say it agian, MY BIRDS MY HOBBY, I am the one that has to feed them and look at them therefore they only need to please me. Again I applaud you both and I question the motives of some of the others on this board. Also if you don't want Scott's passionate views then you shouldn't ask for it because anyone who has been around here knows he will give it to you with all of his love and passion for this great hobby.
Roll On!!
Last Edited by C.J.M. on Jan 17, 2006 8:24 AM
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Gregg
8 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:38 AM
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C.J.M.,
You just said quite a bit in a very diplomatic way. Kudo's. Kenny and Scott are very passionate about their birds and I applaud both of them for same, when it is their birds, not mine.
Kenny,
I have a problem with someone who devoutly loves their birds to the extent that they want to exclude someone else under the guise of protecting their own birds. I really appeciate your love of your birds. I absolutely do not think that you have the right to even suggest that I rename my birds. As I said before, if you dislike what we do then it is time for you, Scott and other like minded individuals to form a club that promotes your concept of a "Pure Breed of Birmingham Roller." If you are so adamant about the harm that we are doing then the only course of action left to you is to form The Pure Roller Club and exclude all of us sinners. Here is a challenge Kenny, form that club. I'll bet you a donut hole that in two or ten years that you cannot muster ten percent of the NBRC membership with an ongoing roster. Knowing full well that I am right in that assumption your only other option is subterfuge. Camouflage your intentions and act like an innocent lamb when called on same. (You know I am on the floor laughing my arse off with that analogy).
The other aspect of this: RESPECT. Kenny, I and my birds already have respect. I do not have to go in a direction mapped by yourself in quest of same. And though I am far from perfect, I will help others with advice and birds(when I get back to where I want to be). Everyone on here will understand the difference between serious performance breeders of color and those that just play in their backyard for fun because they want only a loft full of color.
As I have said before, never will you convince me to change the name of my birds nor will I form or join a seperate club for the purpose of promoting color performing rollers. Why? I already belong to the greatest roller club on the planet, THE NATIONAL BIRMINGHAM ROLLER CLUB. Now if I didn't raise Birmingham Rollers then, and you would be out of you mind with joy, I couldn't belong to the NBRC.
Your continually harping on this subject gives you away.
Scott,
""Of coarse not Brian, you always contribute real performance stuff, where they don't , they just wanted to talk and shove those birds down everyones throat""
Sounds to me that you might have an insight based on influence exerted in that you seem to know the prerequisites for maintaining membership on the veloroll list. Haven't been on that one so I don't know what the parameters are. Just curious based on your statement.
Hey, I've got to do birds and get my body ready for work. I've enjoyed quarreling with you guys again. Hey, here's a thought, why don't you two sponsor me onto Veloroll? Smile. Have a great day.
Gregg.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
652 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:57 AM
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Gregg.Good Post.I would think that if what we are doing that is working with a few colors and selecting them for performance is such Gloom,Dispair and Agony that is going to destroy the Pure Birmingham Roller that the Purist would take up arms against us and get things in writing and a Standard set before the Breed is lost forever.They know we are not going away and we are not going to change our way of thinking so why not shut us out by starting the Pure Birmingham Roller Foundation.This is an Historic Breed that is on the brink of extinction according to some.I wonder why someone hasn't set a Standard long before now?
Gregg.In an earlier post you said:I see that Robert Krenz has forced off any color breeders from the veloroll list. Some one is exerting pressure because? Perhaps they feel threatened by a color roller breeder potentially beating them in competition? I don't understand it. If these mongrels are that inferior, why are they feeling so threatened? Again, draw your own conclusions.
It was Kenny that came on our website the NPRA and copied a picture of one of my rollers that I use on all my post there and put it on Veloroll and started the Color thing on Veloroll.Of coarse I was there to defend my position but Robert soon stopped any Color conversations on his list.I am still on the list but if I started talking about one of my Qualmonds doing a perfect 30 foor roll I would probably get the boot.LOL. David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jan 17, 2006 7:30 AM
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Phantom1
101 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:16 AM
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(((( I care, I care that some poor fool never mistakes one of them cross breds for a Birmingham roller.. I care that the ice pigeon not be added to the blood of the Birmingham roller... Eric, when the guy made the first cross onto an ice pigeon for Milky or whatever factor they were after.. Was that cross made to make better rollers, or to add the factor or color of the ice pigeon? There in lies the real meaning of color breeding.. It can not be confused with breeding Birmingham rollers!! ))))
Kenny - You're absolutely correct! Performance is not, nor can it ever be the FIRST and FOREMOST objective when making a cross onto another breed. Nor can any standard if it were a show bird. Again, I have never said that all these factors/modifiers/etc were inherent to the Birmingham Roller. Come on - I'm not niave enough to think Pencil ORIENTAL FRILL STENCIL was an original modifier in the BR. There will always be a debate of what was and wasn't one of the originals in the breed. Wish they had color photos from WAAAAYYYY back when. LOL!
(((( You see,, this is the twist and lie that the color breeder tries to get the uninformed to believe))))
Another good point. You call it "Color Balancing". Me, a color breeder so to speak, would call this color breeding. Why? Because in my mindset, there's no gray area. Either you are breeding for performance and see things in black and white or you don't and you look at the feathers. I know it's a fine line, and I'm only speaking for myself on this topic. The point that I was trying to make is this. If I were to take an inventory of what I've got in my lofts today, there would be a butt load of Indigos and Barless. Some Blue-Checks and one Blue-Bar Hen. Based on what I've got, mating them regardless of color, I would ultimately end up with a butt load more of Indigos, not so many Barless probably, and little Blues. Why? Because Indigo is a dominant factor. Does that mean that I breed FOR Color? I don't think so because these are the birds that I have to work with in order to move forward to my ultimate goal of performance.
((((Name it and claim it.))))
I've never referred to my birds as Birmingham Rollers. I just call them Performing Rollers or Rollers. As long as they continue to develop and move forward on a performance level, I'll keep calling them rollers. If they stop, I'll call them fertilizer. I appreciate the the way the NBRC keeps it open for all roller breeds. Of course, nobody's ever going to fly a kit of Oriental Rollers and expect to win. I'm not sure that a judge would even entertain the time required to stand under that kit LOL! But to each his own I guess.
I'll close and just say that I'm not offering any front. I've never denied that crosses were and are going on today. As it's been said by many here, only I know what's going on in my own backyard. I can answer honestly that I'm not making any crosses, nor do I feel compelled to do so. Do I have colors that resulted from crosses - yes. Do they roll - yes. Am I happy with them and can I call them a performing roller - yes. Do they roll in the true style of the Birmingham Roller - they'd better!!!! :-)
Take care guys and gals!
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 17, 2006 8:42 AM
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motherlodelofts
567 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:40 AM
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Eric I didn't write that post.
Scott
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fhtfire
299 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:41 AM
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I have been keeping up and reading the post and every now and then putting my thought sdown. To be honest....I think this discussion is going nowhere. The same thing is being said over and over and over and over. I think that it is time to let the birds do the talking. Either they do it or they do not fly against each other. I think that this debate is very good but when the same thing is said over and over....it gets old.
My question is why fly head to head....the World Cup is coming up and let the World cup do the talking. I myself think it is hard to do a one on one that will prove anything. Everyone knows the term that anything can happen on "Any given Sunday". Meaning that there are to many factors involved that will not show the true birds potential based on a one on one fly. The true way to do it ...is to pick 5or6 purist flyers and 5 or 6 color flyers and watch there scores for the World cup and add up the points and see who wins. I think that it would bring a lot more excitement to the World cup and would eliminate some of the factors that can really change a score.
I stand on the purist side of the fence..I do agree with Jay that if a Qualmond is rolling just as hard and fast as my Blue check then so be it. But I do not agree with breeding a Birmingham with a Archangel to get the coloring. That is plain wrong and unexceptable. Becuase when that happens you should change the name of the new breed. How do you think the Pit Bull came about ...breediing two breeds together. Anyway....I think that everyone knows where everyone stands on this subject. I just think that they fly or do not fly...or have a competition on top of the competition and let the numbers talk. Again, lets close this topic to arguing and getting points across....I think that the only talking should be between Scott and Cliff on weather they are going to fly against each other or not....all other commnets have been heard over and over again.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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dave
58 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:58 AM
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Save it for the WC. It is coming up real soon. If you want to prove the other side wrong then put up your birds and see what they do. If you are a purists then put up your kit. If you are a colored roller person then put up a pure kit of color birds and prove that they can roll with the best. You can't tell what you got until you put it up in the air against other people's. Last time I checked my backyard it doesn't extend out to the east coast.
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Mongrel Lofts
111 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:04 AM
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Gregg/David,
I have never ever once said anything about you guys forming your own club or dividing the NBRC. NEVER!!!!! The color breeders keep saying start a club for pure rollers, when they are the only ones who have started a new national club for color breeders.. You guys create a club to divide and point the finger at others. I know not you personally Gregg, but Dave sure is a big part in that. You guys keep saying and pushing for a divide in the NBRC.. I have never even hinted that anyone should not fly in or be a member of the NBRC.. I want every roller flyer in the Country to be a member and flyer in the NBRC.. The Birmingham roller breeders want us all to play together with our chosen breeds of roller..I don't speak for and I have never once claimed to represent the NBRC in anyway!! I'm just speaking my personal opinion and thoughts.. I would like to know what those Breeds of rollers are. I don't want to divide us up. I WANT US ALL IN THE SAME CLUB (NBRC) FLYING TOGETHER!!!!!!! You and Dave are the ones who keep trying to make it sound like someone wants to run you off and split us up.. I think this is the sympathy card. Gregg, honestly nothing could be further from the truth.. Mongrel Lofts
PS.. How about Gregg/Cliff and Dave sponsor me and Scott over on the slobberknocker NPRA colored roller site.. See how long we and our opinions are excepted.. LOL One of the favorite pass times over there has been bash us, without rebuttal.
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highroller
96 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:26 AM
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Ken,
You said "I have never ever once said anything about you guys forming your own club or dividing the NBRC. NEVER!!!!! The color breeders keep saying start a club for pure rollers, when they are the only ones who have started a new national club for color breeders.. You guys create a club to divide and point the finger at others."
That's a bit of a misrepresentation.
It is not a club for color breeders but a club for all performance rollers.
Also as stated when the club was formed...it is in no way in competition with or trying to divide any other club.
You also wrote... "How about Gregg/Cliff and Dave sponsor me and Scott over on the slobberknocker NPRA colored roller site.. See how long we and our opinions are excepted.. LOL One of the favorite pass times over there has been bash us, without rebuttal."
You guys don't need to be sponsored to contribute to the NPRA site (it's not the slobberknocker colored roller site). You must, however, show respect for people and their choices and keep the language clean to be allowed on there.
If you feel you are spoken of unfairly there why don't you reply?
Your last post here was not presenting accurate info about the NPRA site and I am replying, trying to get the correct info out there. And it didn't take disrespect and foul language to do it.
keepin' it friendly,
Dan
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
653 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:35 AM
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Kenny.As always you try to confuse everyone with the way you talk.One time you say one thing then you will reverse it and say another.Please go back over your post the past 2 years on each site you have been on and reread the things you wrote.But of coarse you and Scott like to erase a lot of the things you say so no one can see how you really talk and paint yourselves in a corner.However most of the stuff I have printed off for my own use.
We didn't start the NPRA to divide ourselves from anything but troublemakers like you and Scott.We just wanted a place where we could go and talk about breeding and roller talk without always having you and Scott jump in on things with your self righteous Pure Birmingham Crap.You are right you wouldn't last long on there.Everyone can see what we are all about on our Homepage.We support the NBRC and other Clubs and always will.You and your supporters are the ones that if someone ask a question about color go off the deep end and try to stir up trouble.Gregg nailed it when he said "Who are you to be telling anyone to change the name of our color rollers.I honestly think you are threatened by us.Not once have we ever condemned your rollers or how you breed.It is all in print for everyone to read.If what we our doing on the NPRA site is so bad why do you and Scott spend so much time on our site as a guest? And no you might try to get people to believe that you and Scott are our favorite talk but actually your names hardly ever come up.Everything is there also for everyone to read.The fact is that without you and Scott keeping the color thing going it would pretty much end.You can squeal like a stuck pig all you want but I will defend my rollers any time you try to degrade them. David
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Mongrel Lofts
112 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:51 AM
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Paul/Dave,
I agree on the WC and NBRC flys.. We get to fly both breeds of rollers with and against each other.. That is where all the fun is.. These debate's make the breeders of both kinds of rollers try harder to improve their birds in the roll. That can't be a bad thing! Birmingham roller or American rare colored roller, let's put em up and let the roll do the talking.. Time to move on.. Mongrel lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
654 posts
Jan 17, 2006
10:02 AM
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Kenny.I agree.Still your friend in the Hobby.David
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Leo
Member
69 posts
Jan 17, 2006
10:55 AM
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Dan,you just said keep it friendly,no bad language?????TELL THAT TO YOUR FRIEND ....I think BOZOS..PRICKS..were used.Hes run more good guys OFF this site, than a "retarded"cockroach with a can of RAID......David,That post is Fantastic,,I couldnt believe it..YOU ARE SO RIGHT.....Just watch out,,,Your talking to the KING OF FANTASIES..BELIEVE ME >>I KNOW...He may have run Cliff off already, I hope not..Ive expierenced his DELETING..his cronies trying to "set you up" so he is LOOKIN GOOD,,,AS far as the FLYOFF..NO WAY will that ever happen,...I mean, think about it,If the King lost,.It would be the worlds greatest fantasy story,He would have to come up with stories like 'my birds ate fishin sinkers'or some excuse..HE WONT FLY......
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Mongrel Lofts
113 posts
Jan 17, 2006
11:31 AM
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That's a bit of a misrepresentation.
It is not a club for color breeders but a club for all performance rollers.
Also as stated when the club was formed...it is in no way in competition with or trying to divide any other club.
You also wrote... "How about Gregg/Cliff and Dave sponsor me and Scott over on the slobberknocker NPRA colored roller site.. See how long we and our opinions are excepted.. LOL One of the favorite pass times over there has been bash us, without rebuttal."
You guys don't need to be sponsored to contribute to the NPRA site (it's not the slobberknocker colored roller site). You must, however, show respect for people and their choices and keep the language clean to be allowed on there.
If you feel you are spoken of unfairly there why don't you reply?
Your last post here was not presenting accurate info about the NPRA site and I am replying, trying to get the correct info out there. And it didn't take disrespect and foul language to do it.
keepin' it friendly,
Dan
Dan, I took your advice and thought I would join your colored roller list.. Here was the reply I got when I signed up.. So maybe you are the one who doesn't have it correct.. Your colored roller club, is not the inclusive place you guys try to promote and say it is.. It is a place for only guys who agree that cross breeding for color is good. All are not welcome.. Just thought you might like to know that.. Look Below, you will get some TRUTH!!
Tony's site is an inclusive all roller opinions are welcome.. Not so on your colored roller NPRA site.. Here is the proof.. Mongrel Lofts
You have been banned from http://users.boardnation.com/~performing_rollers. Please keep in mind it is ultimately up to the owner and administrator of the specific forum to determine who they wish to deny access to. This attempt to access our resources has been logged
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
655 posts
Jan 17, 2006
11:34 AM
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Leo.I just keep hoping that someday we can all just get along and there be no division of any kind between Pigeon Fanciers regardless of color,breed or competitions.Life is so short and lifes pleasures are even shorter.But I guess that is to much to hope for.David
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highroller
97 posts
Jan 17, 2006
12:25 PM
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OK Ken, I stand corrected. I didn't know you had been banned already. Possibly because of inflamitory posts on other sites it was deemed necesarry to prevent any of that popping up in there. So you are at a disadvantage there. I am not a moderator there but if I come across any posts bashing you personally I will point it out to a moderator, personal attacks are not permitted.
Dan
P.S. speaking of truth, why do you insist on calling that site something it isn't? It was not set up as a color breeder site and was never called that except by you and a few others. I'll bow out of this thread for now too, getting dizzy going 'round and 'round.
Last Edited by highroller on Jan 17, 2006 12:31 PM
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Slobberknocker
73 posts
Jan 17, 2006
12:26 PM
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Kenny,
You have been banned from our forum because of the language and trouble you cause on the other forums. We felt that it was best to simply not allow you in rather than having to remove a lot of posts. Our forum is quite carefully and constantly moderated to watch for this and remove anything disrespectful immediately.
Words such as "Mongrel" are cencored out on our list and not able to be posted. I, personally, think you would have a lot to offer to our forum in the way of experience and knowledge. However, you seem to put more energy in being negative about things rather than contributing good, useful knowlege.
Please note, there are only 3 users that are banned from our forum, not a whole group. As you told David when he asked to join your "Hardcore Roller" group on yahoo, you wouldn't be interested.
I do thank you for visitng and supporting both my personal site and the NPRA site and for advertising both when you make reference to them here and on all the other lists. I really do appreciate it.
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 17, 2006 12:28 PM
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J_Star
187 posts
Jan 17, 2006
1:20 PM
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How sad, Kenny, Scott and others who believe so heartily about the pure rollers are banded from the other 'color rollers' sites while the other group has the privilege to add fuel to the fire on this site. This doesn’t seem fair, does it?
Standing by ones opinion does not mean being troublemaker. How would you guys feel if banned from a forum just because you color breed and stand so heartily for your program? Just food for thought…Just my opinion.
Jay
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Phantom1
103 posts
Jan 17, 2006
1:21 PM
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Jay,
I thought that was called Veloroll or Earl's List.
Eric
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Slobberknocker
74 posts
Jan 17, 2006
1:29 PM
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Jay,
If I came onto a Roller forum and called you names and labeled your birds without knowing a thing about them, would you let me stay? Also, please note that our forum is for PERFORMING ROLLERS. No where does it say COLORED ROLLERS. We also don't even use the name BIRMINGHAM ROLLER.
I admire and respect the passion of Kenny and Scott. Problem is, they don't respect mine. They pay their own feed bill as you and I pay our own and I have no right whatsoever to tell them what they have or what they should do.
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 17, 2006 1:34 PM
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Purist Loft
4 posts
Jan 17, 2006
1:40 PM
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Bob,
I also saw that on the forum. Someone mentioned the site earlier on this forum and I had to go look and see what was talked about. What I see from the "color breeders" is good conversation and excitement about their birds and what they have going on. You can almost feel their excitement in their discussion. It is a good discussion board.
As far as veloroll, the whole subject is banned. Earl's List is an "invitation only" list that requires an interview before they will even let you in.
RD
Last Edited by Purist Loft on Jan 17, 2006 1:44 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
656 posts
Jan 17, 2006
1:42 PM
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Jay.Just so you know.Veloroll list does not allow any talk about Color.Also I was kicked off Performance First Roller group for just saying the words "Dirty Factor".
Kenny has a roller forum for just Pure Birminghams and I am not allowed because of my breeding practices.So I guess it is not as one sided as you thought. David
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