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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birmingham roller = Performance?
Birmingham roller = Performance?
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dave
59 posts
Jan 17, 2006
2:01 PM
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Some of the lists you guys mentioned are private. I believe the NPRA is a public forum as there is no mentioning of it being a private forum. I belong to the purist camp but to each his own. If you think that yours is good enough then just put them up as the WC is coming up. Win or loose you will get a gauge of where you are at.
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fhtfire
300 posts
Jan 17, 2006
2:38 PM
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I do not think that there as been any "bad" language on this site from Scott or Ken or anybody for that matter. I do not think that there have been personal attacks either. If calling a bird a mongrel or having mongrel blood is such a bad thing or personal attack.... If speaking the truth is so bad. Here is the definition of mongrel
mongrel
n 1: derogatory term for a variation that is not genuine; something irregular or inferior or of dubious origin; "the architecture was a kind of bastard suggesting Gothic but not true Gothic" [syn: bastard] 2: an inferior dog or one of mixed breed [syn: cur, mutt]
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
Source: On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB
I think that the term is right for a mixed breed. I used to raise champion La Mancha goats and I had a La Mancha that was part nubian...that my friend was a mongrel...or a mutt. I do not see anything bad about that and I would not get offended either.
Anyway...I think that someone being banned for not agreeing with color on another site is very hypocritical.Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. IF it is not a "color site" then why get so offended..LOL! I agree with Jay's post. Does not seem fair. Second, I think that this horse has been beat to death on this subject. This is something that will never come to an end. So....put the birds in the air in April and see how well the mutt birds or birds that have been crossed with another breed...do against the purist birmingham rollers and go from there.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
657 posts
Jan 17, 2006
2:54 PM
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Paul.Why would someone who disagreed with what a Club was doing want to join it?Would you join someplace that you disagreed with? David
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C.J.
14 posts
Jan 17, 2006
2:59 PM
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Wow, you guys are on this topic again? I thought this thing was over and everyone agreed to disagree. The old time Birmingham Roller Hobbiests (traditionalists) are never going to change the Colour Breeder’s opinions and vice versa. So why not just agree to disagree? This is like a dog chasing its tail, even if the dog catches up it is only going to end up biting itself in the ass. You are never going to change anyone’s mind. I do agree that if you start breeding these birds out with other breeds (even if you think your intentions are well meaning) then they aren't going to be pure Birmingham Rollers, they are Birmingham Roller crosses. I like the comparison to the Pit Bull breed of dog, the creation of the Pit Bull Breed didn't happen over night. This would be true if the people who are consistently breeding for the colour were continually lowering the percentage of Birmingham Roller blood in the bird. There are blood lines being continually crossed out. Families of Rollers who have been bred out for 10, 20, 30, 40 years whose B.R. blood percentages are low or nil are not true Birmingham Rollers. The Birmingham Roller is lost when you cross them out with another breed. They become Birmingham Roller crossed with ..... The question is what constitutes a true Birmingham Roller and who is qualified to set that standard? Pensom, or someone from Birmingham, England, whose family has raised them for decades or maybe even longer? Or someone else? In my loft, it is all in the roll. If it doesn’t roll, it has no place in my breeding program. Where do we draw the line on what to accept and what not to? The next thing I will hear is we should only recognize one roll pattern. Any other pattern will be considered a flaw or different breed. If we breed for anything other than the roll, aren’t we changing the breed? Wasn’t the whole basis of the Birmingham Roller the roll itself? If you deviate from the Birmingham Roller breed and introduce another breed for colour, or feathered legs, or tufts on their heads, you are then creating something different, are you not?. If a standard is created should we be looking at certain things as flaws? Or should we just not accept these birds at all? (I.e. what the breed should look and act like and if the birds exhibit any other traits etc). Some guys like the smaller birds (myself included) and others the larger birds. As it sits right now it is all in the preference of the hobbiest and what he finds attractive. I personally feel little things, like size differences, are what makes this hobby so exciting. Every person has a little different take on what they are wanting in a perfect bird. The sad thing is a lot of people are going on with a holier-than-thou attitude, when anyone of us, whether we will admit it or not, could have something flawed pop up in our loft. Once it rears it’s ugly head it is our choice whether we keep or classify it as a cull. We decide to whether or not to breed for that certain attribute (or defect, depending on whose point of view you are looking at it from). By abnormalities I mean, webbed feet, different feather textures, tufts or frills on the backs of the head. As it stands now, this is left up to the individual breeder. We as hobbiests should therefore respect the fact that other people are going to go in a different direction from ourselves. I feel that once you have chosen to cross breed, then the result is no longer a Birmingham Roller but something totally different that rolls. If you have a purebred Bull Mastiff and cross breed it with a Doberman for a long time do you still have a Bull Mastiff or a Doberman? Do you say this is my Bull Mastiff or this is my Doberman? No you say this is my Bull Mastiff and Doberman cross, or if done long enough you might say this is a Rottweiler. I would most definitely argue that no, the dog then becomes a breed unto its own. Do the new breeds of dogs that occur still herd, guard and protect as did the original breeds? The answer is yes, they may do one or all of the afore mentioned, yet they are not classified as pure Bull Mastiffs nor pure Dobermans . Why you might ask? Because their blood line has been crossed out in order to achieve something new.
I quote from the following site on origins of the Rottweiler, because this is relevant in most breeds and I feel it applies here: http://www.resteddoginn.ca/name.php “The dogs that came with the Romans probably mated with the indigenous population, helping to form many of the breeds we know today. In fact, the indigenous population probably had more influence than most historians believe. The Rottweiler is almost more of a Swiss-type dog than a German one. By this I mean, in Switzerland the Rottweiler has many close cousins, including the Bernese Mountain Dog, Appenzeller and Entlebuch. The Entlebuch is also docked and resembles the Rottweiler to such a degree that it is easy to believe in a common ancestry.” So I put this to all of you, does the fact that the above mentioned dogs share the same ancestors, make them Rottweilers? Are they recognized as Rottweilers? Or have they adopted their own name? The answer is that they are recognized as their own breed. And why shouldn’t they be? The people who took it upon themselves to breed the dogs out for certain traits are getting the recognition they deserve. I suggest the reason for this is that because the blood line was bred, and out the dogs themselves have become something unique. It is not a bad thing that they have become, but it is something different and useful unto itself. And you know what? That’s okay. I am not going to say that it is wrong, it’s just not the vision I have chosen. Many great things have come out of stuff like this, but you must admit that calling a Rottweiler crossed with a Chihuahua a Rottweiler, isn’t correct or honest. I wonder if when the Birmingham Roller fanciers first started if they had a similar debate with all of their pigeon fancier buddies. I can see it now everyone probably said, “Are you crazy?” “ You are breeding for what?” “ That’s not natural!” “You are wasting your time!” “It will never catch on.” In my opinion, in closing, to the non traditionalists, I respect your view point and think what you are doing is interesting and wish you all luck. Is it for me? No, but that’s okay, not everything is for me. Plus, you don’t need mine or anyone else’s validation. Its your loft, time and money. I strongly believe that these birds should continue to fly against one another in the World Cup because it is fun and they have similar traits, but they aren’t true B.R. I also feel that we should be able to discuss this stuff here without making each other feel we are dirt or wrong or doing something evil. There is no need to call these birds “Mongrels” or such. When it comes down to the W.C., if the traditionalists win at the end of the day, or the non traditionalists win, its not because one breeder’s philosophy is right and another is wrong. It just means that person’s birds had a better day.
Once Again Just My Two Cents!!
C.J.
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fhtfire
301 posts
Jan 17, 2006
3:39 PM
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David,
You have a very good point. If someone came into my club and slammed everything that the club did..I would not want them in the club. If I did not agree with what a club was doing I would not be a memeber. Same goes if I am not interested in what the club stood for I would not be a memeber. I love pigeons...but I am not a racer so I am not a memeber of a racing pigeon club. But if I wanted to get some knowledge on breeding of pigeons in general for performance..I would be a memeber of a racing pigeon club for the knowledge. I myself have been kicking around being a memeber of your roller pigeon club...becuase with knowledge is power. Do I agree with bringing in other breeds to get a certain color...no...but I do not know much about genetics and I would love to have some knowledge on the subject...would I be banned becuase I do not believe in color breeding...Of course it is your club and you have a right to pick and choose...but Kenny and Scott have more competition knowledge than you could ever imagine..they may be an asset to your club. An opinion is just an opinion. Again, this subject will never be agreed upon by the two. So , agee to disagree and that is it. I myself do not know why they Kenny would want to be a memeber of your forum if he did not agree with color breeding...but he is good at genetics and my want to kick some knowledge around. I know that Kenny and Scott love pigeons and love the roll...but they do not love a Brimingham roller being crossed with another breed. You have to admit that it is not a good thing for a pure breed to be crossed...then there is a threat to the breed. I have a pure bred Black Lab...with a pedigree if feild champions and I take a lot of pride having a pure bred black lab...there is nothing more beautiful then a lab hitting the water after you down a duck and the dog brings it back to you an looks at you with those gentle eyes. You can see the pure plesure that dog has bring you that duck. It would be horrible of people started crossing the lab to other breeds to make the dog have different color patterns...it would ruin the performance of the dog in the long run. A lab is a performance dog. It is just bad for a breed to cross a breed and try and call it the same breed. Does that make sense...anyway I am getting a headache over all this. Lets just look at the scores in the upcoming fly and close this argument.
rock and ROLL
Paul
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Phantom1
104 posts
Jan 17, 2006
3:53 PM
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Paul,
Your definition of the word "Mongrel" is correct from the source it was obtained. The first word in the definition is "derogatory" and that is why it has been banned from discussion on the NPRA forums. It's nothing personal, just a code of conduct that is expected and a common courtesy that we expect one to uphold in having civil conversation while in the forum.
Of course Scott and Kenny and many others that would be categorized as a "Purist" have vast knowledge and that has been recognized time and time again here in this forum. It's not an issue about knowledge though. Rather than express the knowledge that all have on this forum we waste countless hours going on and on and on with this debate.
Offense: There's nothing the NPRA is offended of. As an organization, we created an atmosphere that would be monitored to prevent such offenses from happening. There are many different forums within the Board Room that do not pertain to color at all.
Fareness: It's not "Fare" that a person has to interview or be recommended for a forum. It's not "Fare" that anyone, be it a newcomer looking for direction or an old-timer with pretty pigeons, can't post something about color on this forum without it blowing up into this debate again and again. It's not "Fare" to those with knowledge of competition flying, nor those with knowledge of genetics, to have to entertain this debate time and time again either. Who's whining about not being able to join a forum that is viewed as nothing but a Color Breeders Paradise? I figured it would be looked at as a positive step to free up the other lists from the topic.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 17, 2006 3:55 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
658 posts
Jan 17, 2006
4:12 PM
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Paul.No you would not be banned because of the way you believe.As long as you conduct yourself in a manner where you don,t start trying to push your beliefs on to someone else.I have found you to always be pretty much open minded in all are conversations.And I would welcome you to be part of us.And I don,t know of anyone on our site that crosses other breeds into the Birmingham Rollers.For some reason we get blamed for it just because we work with different things already in the rollers.Thats why I belong to so many different groups.I like to learn how to fly these rollers better.I am determined to win when I fly in Competition.LOL.
A good example of who starts things about color go back to page one of this topic and see who the first one was to bring the color issue back up.We have both agreed to drop it and fly our rollers and enjoy life.Who knows in time maybe everyone will be able to talk freely about breeding and flying projects.
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J_Star
188 posts
Jan 17, 2006
4:43 PM
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Well, I really enjoyed CJ and paul's post. Thanks. Bob, Eric and the others also have valid points as well.
Remember that 'Sky Sharks' is a degretory term also. Does that mean we should get some heat from hawks lovers and protectors? If you feel that Mongrel is a bad term, then we all should be considerate to everything we label with such terms that could or might offend others or specific group.
The term Mongrel was not used by anyone, and I should not speak for anybody, as a bad name toward other's birds. Rather a term to distinguish them as a different breed.
Others might become board with this topic and want it to stop. The way I see it is just a very educational and interesting that we all could contribute our thoughts and opinios in a very freindly way. There are so many views and ideas that we all should acknowlege and respect. Respect is the name of the game here. In this kind of debate, we hear from the sideline people who wish not to engage themselves or contribute to others who want some knowlege. This kind of debate brings those people back so we can hear from them again.
It doesn't matter what others beleive or feel about your birds. They are your birds, so enjoy them the way you want and we all are happy for you as you are happy for us. The only thing we ask is don't pass any crapy colored birds to the unwary as a true fancy BR with the motor attached. Those cull should be just that. The same goes for the pure Pensom (original color) breeders, don't pass your culls as the top of the line. The hobby will expand and there is a room for the two sides in this hobby. No doubt...
I really enjoyed reading everyone's opinion whether I agreed with your vision or not. The only thing is missing is the bar setting attmosphere with some few cold ones. We all acted and behaved in a repectable manner and I am glad that we came around and acheived that comparing to last year's discussion. We all have something in common and lets not forget it.
By the way, Kenny, I would like to join your private club and will make sure that I will peak into Bob's forum also. I don't mind to be sponsered into Earls list just to check it out. But I will ask my frinds aropund me here in the state to help me there.
To close, What have you done for your birds lately? Tell us about your coming season plans. I kind of heard Eric's, how about the others. Thanks.
Jay
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DJO
1 post
Jan 17, 2006
5:11 PM
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Gentlemen,
The " Performing Roller" has a standard that was accepted by the NPA . It was established in 1993 by the Performing Roller Association and published in the 1993 NPA Encyclopedia of Pigeon Standards on pages 74-76. The so called "Birmingham Roller" dual-purpose conformation standard was obsolete and the Show Roller was in need of an identity. The PRA set out to separate, our Verified "air tested" Performing Rollers, from the "dual-purpose/show roller", through the National Pigeon Association. We were told by the NPA in order to have our breed recognized through the NPA we had to participate in three NPA Grand Nationals in sequence, so that is what we did. Our first display/show was held at the NPA Grand National in Portland, Oregon in 1990. We had over 30 PRA Verified rollers on display. We did not even judge them. It was good enough for us just to have our "Performing Rollers" standing right along side of all the other breeds of pigeons. Our second NPA Grand National (1991) was held in Los Angeles, Ca. and Richard Jaconette was our judge. All birds on display were PRA verified rollers. Ken Billings was there and can verify what I am saying. Our third, and final leg, to NPA breed distinction, was held in 1992 at the Milwaukie, Wisconsin NPA Grand National. I remember seeing Gregg Sale and Bob Munson in attendance.
Dual-purpose and/or Show Rollers were not recognized in the 1993 NPA Standard Book but our " Performing Roller" was. The PRA was a NPA affiliate until 1997.
It is 2006 and Pensom has been gone for almost 40 years so maybe we better just," get over it" move on and try to progress. Birmingham Rollers, Pensom Rollers, Whittingham Rollers, Black Country Rollers, American Rollers, Mongrel Rollers, etc. Call them whatever you want to, they are your birds. I call mine "OUELLETTE Rollers". Thats it. Put them up and enjoy them whether it be for competition or for your own backyard pleasure.
Dan J. Ouellette
FLYING PERFORMING ROLLER
The Performing Roller Association was formed to promote the Flying Performing Roller Pigeon regardless of its color, strain, or club affiliation. The P.R.A. does not cater to any one individual or special interest groups. We are for the "positive promotion of flying performing roller pigeons". The flying and performance is of our utmost concern. Nothing is more important to our breed than this. Just because we stress the importance of the flying performance of our rollers, it should not exclude us from exhibiting our ideal performing rollers in some sort of display alongside all of the other pigeon breeds. The Flying Performing Roller Pigeon is a breed of its own ad should officially be acknowledged as such. We are proud of our breed and we have the right to express this at the P.R.A. Fly and Display conventions and also at the N.P.A. All Breed Show conventions with our display of Verified Performing Roller Pigeons.
The Performing Roller Association promotes a Fly and Display convention where we display our special air tested, sound, fast, tight, stylish rollers regardless of what they look like on the ground. The rolling performance standard is contained in a few simple words and its importance is so great it should never be allowed to be lost sight of. A true flying performing roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball. Our past leaders left us with some very informative ideas which we should take our lessons from. In around 1875 Mr. Ludlow, the famous artist, judge, and fancier of England, for Fulton's Book of Pigeons wrote, "Rollers are those which at every exhibition of their rolling powers pass through an unaccountable number of backward evolutions or somersaults, in such quick succession as to appear like a falling ball. Most fanciers are satisfied if they come through the kit as a ring, but when they appear in solid form, it is known their convolutions re performed with still greater velocity. A good Roller should fairly roll 20 feet. There are lots who descend by a series of treble or more somersaults to a greater distance, but the most perfect complete a long descent in one spinning bout". (Ludlow, 1875)
This brings us to the question, "why do we have separate meets at the N.P.A. shows? There are several reasons: fanciers are proud of the organizations they create, and they have their own standards which generally conflict with those of other groups. This would mean that no judge outside of their own club would give them the satisfaction they expect. The natural propensity of jealousy is often to be contended with. Unanimity in other breeds of pigeons is governed by a National Standard, which is something Roller pigeon clubs are generally at disagreement over.
This can be understood since there can be no conformation standard for a flying breed. Once a conformation standard is adopted the breed becomes a Fancy Variety. The P.R.A. is for all performing roller fanciers regardless of their particular club affiliations. We welcome all performing rollermen worldwide to participate in our programs. Our Verified Performer Program is open to anyone who is interested in participating.
P.R.A. FOUR BASIC CRITERIA
1. We will never have a written conformation standard. A conformation standard is a license to employ means which will alter the whole outlook of any fancier's loft. The temptation to cross-breed, among other things, being always present. The use of a conformation standard, I repeat, will eventually destroy the whole purpose of the flying breed it is supposed to encourage. There is no need to cross-breed to obtain attractive pigeons, and neither does an unorthodox marking or color spell unattractiveness. It is the facial expression, the feel of the body, and the feather texture which makes an attractive pigeon.
2. We will always employ experienced flying performing rollermen as P.R.A./N.P.A. Display judges. The best judges for flying performing rollers are fanciers who breed flying performing pigeons.
3. We will not offer expensive prizes or money for display choices. The higher the cash awards, the more important stress put on winning, the more disagreements and arguments occur. We have had plenty of examples of this in Several breeds in the past. Some people never seem to grow up, and they evidently have never heard of the Golden Rule.
4. All birds on display will be P.R.A. Verified (NBRC/IRA certification also honored). These are the four basic safeguards that the P.R.A. Verified Display is governed by. With these four criteria enforced we will never have another dual-purpose controversy in the Flying Performing Roller hobby again. The main intention of the Display convention is the socializing and getting together to share our favorite air tested first class rollers with all who attend. Our Display is not a Show! It is a happening. We are a separate breed. Let us not forget what Richard Krupke said years ago million times: "It's what they do in the air that counts!"
BASIC GOALS OF THE VERIFICATION PROGRAM
1. Gets Flying Performing Rollermen together.
2. Encourages fanciers to formulate a standard of quality rolling in the air.
3. By entering these special air tested quality Flying Performing Rollers in the P.R.A./N.P.A. conventions, it gives all who are present a chance to see what constitutes a quality Flying Performing Roller Pigeon on the ground. We will get to see the different variable types of rollers that can roll with quality.
PROVEN PERFORMING ROLLER PROGRAM APPLICATION PROCEDURE (open to all flying rollermen)
1. The bird being verified will be at least one year old or banded one year prior to be eligible for the title of Proven Performing Roller. Verification of age will be authenticated by the two flying performing rollermen who witnessed the particular bird in question. Area director and witnesses will use integrity when verifying Proven Performing Rollers. By signing your name your reputation will reflect the quality of performers in your area. (Area Director is preferred to be present but not necessary).
2. The bird must perform in an outstanding manner and roll with velocity, style, frequency, and roll a minimum of 10 feet.
3. The bird being verified must be designated before liberation. Additionally, it must be easily identified and be the only bird of its particular color and marking. There must be no question as to which bird is being verified.
4. Each area may judge and verify their own birds. Judges consist of two Flying Performing Rollermen other than the owner. Owner must sign form in appropriate space but may not sign as a witness. The witnesses do not have to reside in your area but must be a Flying Performing Rollerman. All verification forms will be filled out properly.
5. Verification forms will be submitted by the Area Directors to the Governing Councilman in charge. The information will be filled out on PRA Proven Performing Roller application forms. Included should be the date, band number, color and marking, age, sex, and who flew it. Judges, owner and Area Director must sign form. Verification forms can be obtained from your Area Director.
6. Copies of completed Verification forms will be issued to the owner of the bird being verified by the Governing Councilman in charge. The Governing Councilman in charge will also record your verification in the PRA Verification Record Book. The Governing Councilman in charge is responsible for the Verification Program. (You must show preof of NBRC/IRA Certified birds).
7. All Proven Performing Rollers will be eligible for display events of the PRA Annual Fly and Display conventions and the NPA National Sow conventions. Remember the display is not a show, it is a chance to share our top rollers with all who attend the conventions. We do not display our flying rollers for a show conformation standard. Our rollers are picked out of the air for their rolling quality and that is our standard. We will never have a written conformation standard. A true Flying Performing Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball. This is the Flying Performing Roller standard we go by. All birds on display will be P.R.A. Verified. (We also honor NBRC/IRA Certification).
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highroller
98 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:13 PM
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Jay,
I have recently received some Turner family birds and plan to use my current stock to foster as many Turners as possible. Then compare their performance to what I fly now. If (or should I say when) I see them as an improvement over my current stock I will change completely over to them.
Dan
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knaylor
45 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:36 PM
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Guys, I belong on Roberts velroll list too. Lets get the facts straight. He does not allow any religious talk, political talk, non pigeon talk or bashing of anyone. I am sure that Robert saw where the colored talk would head and took care of it. Also it is HIS private list and he can run it how he wants. Kevin
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Phantom1
105 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:37 PM
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Jay,
Excellent rebutal. I'll take this one excerpt from your reply: The term Mongrel was not used by anyone, and I should not speak for anybody, as a bad name toward other's birds. Rather a term to distinguish them as a different breed.
The fact of the matter, to me at least, is that the term "mongrel" has always been viewed as a hostile word here and abroad.
Put a different way, Jay I don't know your last name, but what if everyone with your last name were all of a sudden referred to as a "mongrel"? Would that put you on the defensive? Would you feel a need to defend yourself and the likes of you? Or maybe you'd prefer to be referred to as something a bit more subtle and possibly encouraged as a fellow human being to strive for excellence in whatever you do - despite your "mongrel descent". Just some food for thought.
For the sake or this discussion, what IF what we have are two different, and established breeds, can the term "Mongrel" be dropped once and for all? Because that seems to be a portion of the difference. The other part is that some feel I and the likes of me are actively introducing Ice Pigeons into our PURE Birmingham Rollers (which I guess we have none of). If we were to simply acknowledge that we do not have Birmingham Rollers and that they are indeed something else, can we move past this nonsense? Fine! I don't have Birmingham Rollers, and will reiterate once again that I've never claimed to have them.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Phantom1
106 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:40 PM
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Kevin,
Doesn't he also require a phone interview prior to allowing you to join? I won't do that for membership to a list.
Likewise, the NPRA established its guidelines early on, and will not tolerate certain behavior.
Eric
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knaylor
46 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:42 PM
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Eric, not to my knowledge.
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Mongrel Lofts
114 posts
Jan 17, 2006
5:58 PM
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Kenny,
You have been banned from our forum because of the language and trouble you cause on the other forums. We felt that it was best to simply not allow you in rather than having to remove a lot of posts. Our forum is quite carefully and constantly moderated to watch for this and remove anything disrespectful immediately
Good for you Bob. You have a national roller club and you ban roller breeders if they don't agree with your opinion. Kind of sounds like what you keep saying you guys fear from other roller clubs. Doesn't it? LMAO Bob, you claim to have started a national roller club for everyone who breeds rollers of any kind. Don't you? The term projecting on others the dirty deeds you commit comes to mind..
I have read post from you guys on the NPRA site copied and posted from Tony's site to your NPRA site . I have read many post on your site, slamming the guys on this site, that you won't let on your site to say hey, that just isn't so. You let guys run others down on your site, but you don't let them reply.. As long as they agree with your way of thinking Bob, its not contraversial in your opinion to run down the purist on your site, now is it Bob?? As long as they stick the knife in the back of roller men you don't like or agree with. That is ok on your NPRA site..Sounds like a really fair club you are running over there Bob.. Good way of doing things Bob. Let guys talk crap about guys you won't let on your National roller club site to defend them selves Bob.. Bob, I think your actions speak louder than anything I can say.Thank you Bob.. Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
107 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:09 PM
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Kenny,
I haven't been on the NPRA forum as much as this one because my office network has it filtered out. I do like to participate in these discussions. But I must tell you that I am VERY interested to your claims. Please find the excerpts you are referring to and bring those to my attention. As moderators, just as Tony is, we do our best to catch those things.
You mentioned copying and pasting from forum to forum. Where's it coming from and where's it going to? Is this any different than you copying from the NPRA forum and posting on Veloroll? Or is what you're seeing different?
Lastly, The NPRA is not and was not established to exile anyone. We simply chose to make stand for that which we held in high regards - The Hobby of Rolling Pigeons and Those Abroad. However, there was an upfront understanding and expectation of how the members and participants would go about it. We all have local clubs - all breeds clubs, rare breeds clubs, racing clubs, and roller clubs - and they all have bickering within them. We honestly wanted that to not be an issue. It's bound to happen, but why start off welcoming it? This is NOT an attack against any ONE PERSON. This is not even an attack. This is a simple statement as to the foundational beliefs in which the organization was established.
Thanks!
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 17, 2006 6:13 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
115 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:10 PM
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Problem is Bob/Dave, Velroll and Earls are personal list. The NPRA is billed as a national roller club, open to any and all roller breeders of any type.. I'm sure you guys can't see any difference, but that comes as no surprise .. Mongrel Lofts
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Ballrollers
237 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:11 PM
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Hey guys, I'm still here, Leo. Never fear! RD, I gotta say, you had some astute perceptions for a relative new-comer. Good posts, guys. It looks like things have been very active on the site! It's an honor to hear from Mr. Oulette, a class act in the hobby. Jay Yandle and I flew three kits of my birds then three kits of his on Saturday. I have 13 Andalusians and three Indigos in the A-kit, two spread black and two blue checks all off Andalusian parents. I wonder if Scott considers those mongrels? hehehe...Oh, yeah..only for the sake of putting them down in a discussion, not for competition flying against him, though! LOL! I've got a brother who just moved to Carolina from Ohio and has been a backyard flyer for years. He is interested in flying competition with Jaconettes, so we spent yesterday with Danny Horner. Brian McCormick-Danny said to tell you HEY! We got a few birds for breeders for my brother. It was a great weekend with the birds.
So anyway, I know what you guys really want to hear about. Scott, I really appreciate your sympathy for this cocky, upstart in pulling out and allowing me to save face. That's not my style though. I am pleased that the wager is on. Though things have gotten a little testy, as always. It is my sincere desire that we all have fun with this, that we learn something about our birds, about each other, and for the adventurous, even about ourselves. I appreciate everyone's points of view, so please let's hear them.In that spirit, I suggest we pick up where we left off in establishing the rules of the fly. There are many issues to be resolved before one bird takes flight in this match. If either one of us refuses to compromise on some of the issues, there will be no fly; simple as that. I have demonstrated my willingness to be flexible; I haven't seen much of that from you Scott, but we are talking about a lot of money here, and I will not tolerate the deck being stacked any more than it already is. YITS, Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
344 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:40 PM
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Cliff, I think Scott made it very clear.
20 bird kit, WC rules, all color birds and a wager of five grand. I think that is reasonable, especially since he put out the call for this challenge. I believe it is a take it or leave it offer to anyone.
Its kind of like running for pinks (no pun intended..lol)
If someone says I'll run you heads up for titles, thats my offer, you either run him or you don't. If my motor is bigger, you won't be able to convince me to yank to plug wires off or disconnect the NOS. Its run per the offer, or don't run at all.
Other wise we are going to get into 25 more posts of dissecting specifics, which really in this "grudge match" race has no bearing. I wanna see you do it, but you gotta roll with the offer. Kit against kit for five Gees.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
238 posts
Jan 17, 2006
6:50 PM
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Ladies and Gentlmen of the list,
This is a sad day for the men who fly birds of color, but it is not the last day. The dispicable act by Robert Krenz in removing what he deems as a "color breeder", for respectfully expressing their opinions and for the family of rollers they choose to work with, is one of blatant prejudice and discrimination. In this irresponsible act of removing competition flyers from accross the country based, soley, on his perception of the family of birds they fly, in an attempt to revive a stale and lifeless roller site, it is my sincere hope for the hobby that he has not started a ripple effect that could further drive the wedge between members of the hobby and families of rollers. I find it even more gutless that he din't have the courage to boot his favorites in the hobby, who breed rollers of color, like Brian McCormick, John Bender and Joe Bob Stuka to name a few. That would have taken a little courage. To ostracize a group of roller men because of their defense of the unwarranted and unprovoked attacks on the family of rollers they fly and compete with is a disdainful act of cowardice. I thought the idea was to encourage and support new men in competition and in the conversation. What's next, Robert? Boot the men who fly Fireballs? Jaconettes? Where does this bigotry end? Now the more unscrupulous of the members that remain can pinch all the photos and out-of-context posts that they want from other websites and ridicule and scoff other roller men all they want. There is nobody to, respectfully, stand up and correct the inaccuracies or invalidate the distortions and half-truths with the facts.This is the kind of indignity we, in the sport, ought to resist with every fiber of our existance. Like an immature child, Mr Krenz gets to "take his ball and go home" in a sort of "if you don't play the way I want you to, you can't play," kids game. After all it's his site. Though this sport has provided most of us with wonderful and rewarding relationships, this one with Mr' Krenz has been a true dissappointment. This is one fancier that I, personally, would prefer not to cross paths with. And yes KGB, you may pinch this post, too, and put it on velloroll. YITS,
Cliff
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knaylor
47 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:04 PM
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Cliff, Krenz has his reasond and it is all about harmony. His list his rules. You guys are not the first to get booted or the last. Also look at Brians post it is that plain and simple. Kevin
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Mongrel Lofts
116 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:26 PM
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Cliff,
Do you feel the same way about Bob Guam not letting people with a different opinion over on your Natianal colored roller NPRA page? You have a strong opinion about personal web pages,, How about National roller club pages? Just wondering.. Mongrel Lofts
Ladies and Gentlmen of the list,
This is a sad day for the men who fly birds of color, but it is not the last day. The dispicable act by Robert Krenz in removing what he deems as a "color breeder", for respectfully expressing their opinions and for the family of rollers they choose to work with, is one of blatant prejudice and discrimination. In this irresponsible act of removing competition flyers from accross the country based, soley, on his perception of the family of birds they fly, in an attempt to revive a stale and lifeless roller site, it is my sincere hope for the hobby that he has not started a ripple effect that could further drive the wedge between members of the hobby and families of rollers. I find it even more gutless that he din't have the courage to boot his favorites in the hobby, who breed rollers of color, like Brian McCormick, John Bender and Joe Bob Stuka to name a few.
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Ballrollers
239 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:30 PM
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Brian, Sorry, but I have to disagree with you, buddy. Scott did not make anything clear. The boast and wager that I called him on was, "Put a full kit of so-called rare-colored mongrels todether and I will fly against that kit for $5000" Then, after he is called on the bet, he inserts a bunch of "take it or leave it" qualifiers about the rules, kit size and birds. I'm saying lt's negotiate them or we have no fly.
The deck is already stacked in his favor. I do not have his 8 years of breeding and flying experience with competition rollers, nor do I have a loft of proven producers. I've got one competition fly under my belt and a breeding loft full of performers whose ability to produce is up in the air. Does he want me to clip the left wing on all my birds too?Does Scott want to compete against my best performing "mongrel" birds of color, or my prettiest rollers? Is this a performance fly or a beauty pageant? I have been listening to his utter bullshit about mongrel blood destroying performance for two years, now. I breed for performance, not feather color. So I don't have 20 spinners that show a particular color he reqires. But I have 20 spinners that are"mongrels". Now that he has been called on the bet, he backtracks to a safer position because he is SO worried about these birds (as he well-should be. He only beat me by a few points in my first fly in the 11-bird of the Fall Fly)that, even with all those odds in his favor, he still wants to stack the deck even more!!I see no valid reason, baed on all his philosophies and years of arguments about "mongrels", to eliminate birds bred from mongrel parents just because they came out blue check or because he cannot tell an indigo red check from a standard red-check? Mongrel are mongrels, right, Scott? This is my family of birds against his family of birds; loft against loft, "mongrels" against "purebreds". If he's going to restrict my birds based on their feather color,then I get to do the same. Scott only gets to include blue bar selfs, no white flights, or tail-feathers, no badges, or pie-balds. Reds might be mutants. Oh yeah, and they have to have a lemon eye or they aren't purebreds. How ridiculous do you want to get with this? YITS Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
345 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:33 PM
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Cliff, I don't want to go down on record as defending Krenz, but his list, and a variety of others are "invite only" and in order to stay, you have to play by their rules. It is kind of like, No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service. It is not up to us to like it, but if we are invited to it and allowed to participate, you have to play by the rules. Trust me, there are others who pissed Krenzy off before and were booted and it had nothing at all to do with color. I don't agree with someone playing List God, but it is their house and thus, their rules.
Krenz didn't kick me off because he knows I'll come up there and calf tie his ass on the front lawn...lol. J/K, the reason I didn't get booted from any of those "private" lists is because I have learned when and where to pick my fights. I know better than to get all up in a color genetic outrage on some of the lists. Just as I know of a few others where I can vent more openly without having to worry about "breaking the rules". Common sense goes a LONG way in this game. You can't take the world on in one knock out punch. You gotta be creative in your attempts to be persuasive, picking your fights at the right time and right place. Blanket barraging won't get you even close to as far. You are an intelligent man. I assume to become a Dentist you have to have a PHD correct? That means at some point in your educational career, you learned when to be offensive, and when to be defensive...and when to sit idle on the sidelines until the appropriate time to participate.
The hardest thing for most of us to do when participating on the internet to to "think", "rationalize", then react or withdrawl.
Brian.
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Phantom1
108 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:38 PM
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Kenny,
For the record, the NPRA is once again, NOT a COLOR Roller Club. The NPRA is an organization, just as the NBRC, that exists to support the hobby WITH established expectations, rules, guidelines, and goals. It does not exist to compete with any club, organization, individual, forum, or list. Change your name from Mongrel Lofts and the word won't be sensored, but the posts of ALL will be.
As Brian puts it: "Cliff, I don't want to go down on record as defending Krenz, but his list, and a variety of others are "invite only" and in order to stay, you have to play by their rules." The rules are established. It's nothing personal - thems just the rules.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 17, 2006 7:41 PM
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Ballrollers
240 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:55 PM
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Kenny, I am a participating member of the Performing Roller Association site, Earl's List, NBRConline, Testa's Performance Rollers site, and this site. I have seen INDIVIDUALS removed from sites because of their name-calling and disrepect for their fellow flyers,in an effort to keep the site gentlemanly and I have seen sites where any language and all statements are fair game. I have no beef with that, on any site. This is the first occaision where the decision to boot fellow hobbyists was an entire GROUP based strictly on prejudice and discrimination against the family of birds they fly. Some of the men who were booted, rarely even posted on velloroll, including me, but we were known to fly color birds. I couldn't care less (Fewer duplications of Earl's list posts, which is basically all that site consists of-guys posting the same comment to both lists). It's a dead site, and he is hoping to revive it on the backs of the James Turner family of rollers. It is the principle of the thing. Let's just call a spade a spade here, Kenny. This was done by Krenz to placate guys like you and Scotty who whined and cried to Krenz and left his site when YOU brought up color topics and then got called to task by David and I with your deceipt and your distortions of fact! (I never saw David or I or any other breeder of this family, start a color discussion in the year I was on that list.)Other guys on that list got tired of YOUR CRAP and the wrong guys had to pay the price for it, because of the color of their birds. That's BULLSHIT! (Sorry Tony, I'll do better! LOL) That's the sort of behavior some men do not want on their list. Understanding, yet? YITS Cliff
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fhtfire
302 posts
Jan 17, 2006
7:59 PM
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Race for pinks...I get it...that was funny...LOL.
I agree with Brian...no more chit chat...W/C rules..kit of 20 colored birds...5 grand. Sounds simple enough to me. So set a date..!!!
Sorry for all the bad spelling in my other post. Was typing to fast and the wife was on my arse...LOL!!!
I think Jay hit it on the nose. It is not about the colored birds...it is the people that are not being truthful and claiming that they have Pure bred birds when they obviously do not. Anyway...If it is green and rolls hard and fast..so be it. Just do no tell some new guy that it is a pure bred. Anyway...Kenny brings up some good points...if it is a roller club...you should not exclude roller men. You should ban somebody after they make a mistake...not before....Don't sink the ship before it even gets in the water...LOL!! that is not fair...
Good post on the drag race thing. I myself like to race my 72 Nova SS and let me tell you...when it is for pinks...that is what it means..no matter what you are running. Anyway...what could be better...drag racing, rollers and strong debates....all we need is some bar stools and a nice brew and we would be in the black country putting are birds up for bragging rights.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
241 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:10 PM
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Thanks, Brian. I appreciate your level head and common sense. You are correct, as usual, but not entirely! I'm just hot about this right now. Please pardon me. I can't even recall much of a color debate on velloroll, except when Kenny pinched Dave's picture and ridiculed him in public. Even then, it was his tactics that I recall being argued and criticized, as much as the color thing. As I said, some of the guys booted rarely even posted. And even with all those ethical violations and complaints about it from the other performance guys, including you, did Kenny get the boot? Of course not. If he had, I would be more likely to accept your point. No, this was not a rules violation thing, Brian, (but I apprecite your optimism.) This was accross the board. Robert never e-mailed me in private to tell me that I had ever gone too far with a topic!. Now he may have seen the color debates on other lists and acted accordingly based on the sides individuals took. That is probably closer to the truth. Nor did he caution any of the other men who breed this family. Just WHAM. You're gone. "I don't agree with what you guys that breed your family represent and I don't like what you are doing to the breed," he says! The nerve of the guy! He has no f%@#&in' idea about my breeding and management plan. He has bought Kenny and Scott's crap, hook line and sinker, and he is kissin' their arse, plain and simple. He played favorites. And that speaks loads about the character of the man, or lack of it. I hope Kenny and Scott are enjoyin' this! Happy now, guys? YUCK! YUCK! YUCK! It's really funny isn't it? Great for the hobby, huh? Really makes guys want to get in there and compete in the sport with guys like you. LOL! YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 17, 2006 8:24 PM
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Phantom1
109 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:13 PM
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Paul,
I'm still SO very confused where the logic is coming from on the "if you don't have the Birmingham Roller, stop claiming that you do and passing it off as something its not" theory. WHERE is that advocated by a single person on this forum???? Am I guilty of such atrocities to have the True Birmingham Roller? If so, PLEASE let me know. Furthermore, I don't feel confident after reading post upon post, that anyone in the US or the UK for that matter actually has a Birmingham Roller. It could be a dead breed for all I know. Of course it's easy to say, "When you're standing under the real deal (The Birmingham Roller), you'll know it". Man I can't wait for that day, because I've seen some really nice birds in the past year. If there's something better, then I'm in for a treat. But moreso to my point, those roller men only claimed to have Rollers. And yeah, I saw some Reduced, Indigo, Opal, and Qualmond. And for the record, I didn't even have to go to Nebraska in 2005 to see it.
This is the same crap that Kenny points out "we" do - and that's twist things around. I read word for word these posts and have a hard time finding where certain interpretations are gathered from. Just as I don't get it when he sees it that way. Perhaps these posts and ideas are being pulled from other lists that poor souls like me don't have access to LOL!
Talk to you all tomorrow,
Eric
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motherlodelofts
569 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:28 PM
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Lets get something straight Cliff , never have I boasted , my words were "there is a reason that you will never see a kit of rare mongral birds do worth a shit, put a kit of rare mongral birds together and I will fly that kit for five grand"
Your name wasn't mentioned nor were your birds, but you jumped on it anyway , now you say you don't color breed so you want to fly normal colors that may or may not have it in the background ,so why did you jump on it ? what is your beef if you don't color breed ?
Cliff I saw where this thing was going and what I saw was it was going to go even beyond the birds , I sucked it up and called it off (funny no one read the end of that post though.)
You pricks chewed me up and spit me out here and over on Slobberknockers.
The offer was put back on the table Cliff with an add that you have the entire world to pull in a kit of rare color birds, with all the color breeders you know that can't be that difficult, it was never your birds against mine , you just wanted to draw it that way, it was a "kit of "rare" color birds" and that offer still stands and it will be flown by the rules of the largest and most prostigious fly in the the world, that being the world cup, there is nothing else to talk about Cliff , it is pretty darn straight forward, either step up or don't it is up to you.
If you want to fly your birds against mine , qaulify in one of the major flys and then get back to me.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
570 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:33 PM
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"He has bought Kenny and Scott's crap, hook line and sinker, and he is kissin' their arse, plain and simple. He played favorites. And that speaks loads about the character of the man, or lack of it. I hope Kenny and Scott are enjoyin' this! Happy now, guys? YUCK! YUCK! YUCK! It's really funny isn't it? Great for the hobby, huh? Really makes guys want to get in there and compete in the sport with guys like you. LOL! YITS Cliff '
Cliff I had dropped off that list, he dropped you for his own reasons and "never" did I speak to him about it.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 17, 2006 8:43 PM
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Ballrollers
242 posts
Jan 17, 2006
8:34 PM
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Paul, I have never heard a roller man who breeds the James Turner's family of rollers EVER refer to them as "pure breds",and I probably know more of these men, and see more kits of them fly than most of you. Have you, Paul? Or are you just parroting the Ken Billings and Scott Campbell philosphy on the roller hobby? Think for yourself, man. Don't just be force fed this crap! It ain't happening anywhere but in their minds! And it ain't anymore common or any more of a sin than the pedigree guy who says I'll sell you this Pensom 514 line of rollers for $100 a pair and they don't produce one spinner! Think for yourself, man, think! YITS Cliff
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fhtfire
303 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:03 PM
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Back the horse up guys...I never said that you guys are doing that and I never claimed that you did. Do not get defensive on me. My comment was not pointed at anybody. It was an in general comment. I have seen sites with certain people on this board and they said "Birmingham Rollers" for Sale and you could see from the photo of the bird that it was a cross and they claimed it was a Birmingham roller. Eric, I have seen it with my own eyes to many times and it was not on a private site. I have even e-mailed some of these people and told them that they are a fraud and BAM the photo and bird are gone.. Again, I never just pull things from my arse and Trust me...people who know me know that I am open minded. Nobody force fed me anything. I am offended that someone would think that I am attacking them. If I attack... you will know it and I will name you. But...It was just an in general observation that there are people that are saying they have Birmingham rollers for sale when they are clearly not birmingham rollers. That is bad for the new people coming in that do not know better. I care about the new guys...and trust me I gave away and donated more birds last year then I kept for myself..to help people out...so it is the brotherhood of rollers that I want to protect...You are right...do I have Birmingham rollers....I do not know if they are actual birminghams...but they sure roll like one..LOL! Again, my statement was an in general statement about cross breeding another breed. I have not seen your birds...so I do not judge and if you read all my posts on this forum...I never talk about birds that I have not seen and people that have talked to me on the phone...know that I do not talk bad about other peoples birds...ever...unless I have seen them for myself...and if they were not that good...I just say that when I saw the birds they did not do much. So again....It was a general statement...and the statement is one that I think is dishonest if "people" claim to have Birmingham rollers that are obviously crossed. I have 4 andalusians in my kit boxes right now and they are damn good. I do not call my Andalusians Birmingham rollers either..they are rollers...that is it...anyway...Please do not mis quote me or take what I say in the wrong context....I do not think that I mentioned any names in my post...I said some "PEOPLE" read the post again and you will see that I was ageeing with another post.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jan 17, 2006 9:19 PM
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Ballrollers
245 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:19 PM
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You are twisting and distorting what I say, again, Scott. I did not say tht I want to fly "normal colors that may or may not have it in their background." I said if both the parents are DEFINITELY Andalusian and the youngster is a blue-check, it should certainly qualify as a rare mongrel in the fly. If not, then I guess that makes it a pure Birmingham Roller hen, huh? LOL! Great sense of logic, my man.
You asked what my beef is. My beef is that you guys assume that any time you see an Indgo, or Andalusian or Opal or Almond you cry "color-breeder" or "mongrel breeder" and start lying and distorting the lineage of the bird which you nothing of; just like Ken did to David when he pinched his picture off the Performing Roller site, and just as you have to me. You couldn't accept or admit that a man might breed for performance and have some side color projects going which is true of many performance breeders of pure BRs. You never say, maybe this guy is a performance competitor who happens to breed a family of rollers with color modifiers. What I have been dong here is to try to define and identify what you mean by "a kit of rare mongrel birds", that's all. The reason that I made it "my kit against yours" is #1. Because of all the cryin' you and Kenny were doing about taking on all the color birds in the Carolinas. #2 to leave guys like Joe Bob, and Jay, who have more important things to do with their birds, like winning the World Cup and the NBRC Fall Fly, out of this petty crap. #3. To give me more time to breed more spinning pure rare-colored mongrels that meet your criteria for the fly! If you stick to your position that the rare color has to be displayed, not just inherited, then you are defying every law of basic genetics and you are admiting to all, here, that in your opinion, standard colored rollers bred from mongrel blood families are not considered mongrels, but are pure Birmingham Rollers, and, thus are not eligible for the mongrel vs. purebreds fly. I can accept that.
By the way, Scott. I have to give you credit for seeing where this was going when you dropped it. I was a litle naiive. I thought it could be different. I was wrong. YITS Cliff
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wizard
1 post
Jan 17, 2006
9:21 PM
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why is it that the one's who never have much always are the loadest....??
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fhtfire
304 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:23 PM
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Cliff,
You posted twice Bro...delete one...
Wizard...what do you mean...you lost me bro?????
Last Edited by fhtfire on Jan 17, 2006 9:24 PM
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merced guy
42 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:34 PM
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Gentlemens,
looks like the challange is up again,
For simplicity can we call it, color blood/color bird VS. Pure blood/ Hard color birds. the end.
Panel Judging would be fair for both sides on matters of this caliber. Every important sports event has panel judging for example the Olympics " true competition between nations" uses panel judging. common sense. use wc or NBRC fly rules, but use panel judging (at least three judges). As spectators, we (hobbiest) would want to see a fair fight and no ecuses in the end.
Please keep things simple!!!
Or else someones is going to back out again because of somethings not right or not fair.
with full anticipation,
thong
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knaylor
48 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:37 PM
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Cliff, goes to show you what you know about Scott and Kenny and the type of men they are and what they have done for the hobbie. There are so many people that have gotten started by them and for what?? To help the hobbie not to control it. Ask Paul how many birds he got from Scott and how much he paid for them. I know that the they both have helped me also. They both have my respect for the men that they are and what they have done for the hobbie. You on the other hand have done nothing for the hobbie that I have seen but bad mouth it. Kevin
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motherlodelofts
571 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:47 PM
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Cliff , I am the one saying may or may not have color behind them. Your wasting my time Cliff and doing your usual of talking around in circles.
I think that you prooved my point that a kit of rare color birds can't be done.
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
347 posts
Jan 17, 2006
9:54 PM
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Cliff, like anyone who will go beyond the ninth yard fueled by burning passion, I admire your dedication.
BUT you made a statement that is having an impact on your descretion.
"I'm just hot about this right now"
Just for shits and giggles, let me give you a little BMC advice, take it or leave it.
Some people who know me really well will say I am one mean SOB! I have an attitude that pisses fire and vinegar. Others will say he's a down to earth kind of guy.
The difference is at what point of the day and at what point of passion that person comes to make that determination. I once, (and still do sometimes) make hard core, in your face, challenge the whole damn world, till I die..decisions fueled by anger, determination and passion brewing in a cocktail of what I believe in, but was largely nothing more than misfocused animosity.
When I look back on things now that I am growing older and becoming less "volital", I realize that some of the worst actions I made and some of the least productive and countering offensive comments I conveyed to others were made under extremely similar circumstances as "I'm just hot about this right now".
This entire subject is emotional for some, entertaining and for others, and liquid bile for even other folks. But the bottom line is it is really about RESPECT. We each would like to have, to some degree, a level of respect for our passion of rollers. No two people will see exactly the same thing and often fewer will always agree with one another. But if there ever comes a day when all roller men will have RESPECT for what each individual freely chooses to breed and fly, that will be harmonious. That is, after all Cliff, what you and some of your close friends really want in this arguement.
Respect can be had, but trust me from experience, bulldogging and fighting every adversary head on, has never, ever resulted in the final goal that was originally intended. Creative and well thought out decision making (and expression) generally always ends up being the tipping hand towards that goal.
I don't agree with many philosophies that some folks have in regards to rollers. But we are free to choose whatever we want to and act upon whatever challenges we face. I consider Scott to be a good friend, yet, we have some drastically different perspectives about rollers..yet, we are still very good friends and do respect one another's opinions. Kenny and I butt heads often, usually because we are both bored. He and I have strong disagreements and most likely will until the day we are both worm food. But, we are still coordial with one another and consider one another friends in this hobby. I don't expect him or Scott to change their view points of my birds or my decisions, just as I don't expect them to embrace mine.
It is all about the approach Cliff. Approach the same passion for the goal of respect by giving some in return, even if it hurts. I have found that taking a step back to rethink things with a calmer presence of mind is extremely difficult for me, but becomes easier every time because the end result down the road is ten times more productive than it was when I try to kick the entire world's ass.
Passion is the heart of this sport. I personally thrive daily on it. Harness that passion and you will become more productive in your endeavors....I guarantee it! And you'll make a few more friends in the process.
Enemies are easy to make. Friends and respect in this hobby has a price tag you have to be willing to pay.
Brian.
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Mongrel Lofts
117 posts
Jan 17, 2006
10:45 PM
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BMC,
Well said my man.. I think I will take a deep breath and relax.. LOL Hey Brian, I do consider you a friend in this sport.. Mongrel Lofts
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nicksiders
352 posts
Jan 17, 2006
11:26 PM
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So, it is more than the performance we are after?..........geesh!
Some have more than one opinion on just one topic. We even have people trying to interpete what others are saying; some are even apologizing not for themselves, but for others. WOW!
Maybe we need to move on..........
How about them Steelers?
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Pali View Lofts
13 posts
Jan 18, 2006
12:56 AM
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Ballrollers,
Hopefully you read the above "BMC advice" post at LEAST a couple of times cuz this hobby IS about friends AND respect! By posting, BMC is giving a "friendly" bit of advice on how to start to gather some.
I'll start and say this...by taking his time to write that to you, BMC has earned some respect, in my book at least. With my one finger typing, this took about as long to complete as I am sure BMC took on his above post.
Just my opinion, now go fly some birds!
Pali View Lofts
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
432 posts
Jan 18, 2006
1:03 AM
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Hey All, as to what type of roller (Birmingham or color aka performance rollers??) is the best performer will ultimately be decided by the the "free market system" no matter what Scott, Cliff or anyone else says or claims.
If you are one of those reading and trying to follow this thread and wondering what kind of roller you should invest your time, effort and money in, I recommend you get out of your backyard and go see as many well managed teams perform as you can.
The kits that make you go WOW! DID YOU SEE THAT??!! these are the ones you should consider bringing into your backyard.
If you want to play with color crayons go right ahead, if you want to collect and parse pedigrees that's fine too.
If you want to fly the best rollers possible it is up to you to do your own due diligence. Like one of the greatest presidents we ever had said, "Trust, but verify".
It's not something I or Scott or Cliff says, it’s what YOU say. YOU decide which is the best type of roller when you crack open wallet and lay your money down. Everything else is well…BS!
Proverb by Will Winsome: “Time will answer all questions”.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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scotty
21 posts
Jan 18, 2006
1:14 AM
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Merced guy,I don't think I could put it more simply than the way you put it on your original post.Quote;"A Birmingham roller isn't classified by it's color or pattern,but by it's performance".We are talking about performance here!!!Performance=Birmingham,Birmingham=performance.It Make's too mutch sense for me to think you all don't get it! I'd like to see a colored roller perform like a Birmingham.Remember we are talking about performance.Go back to the topic,Birmingham=performance.Yes! I would agree.I think another way to look at it would be speed,style,and frequency=Birmingham.In the sport,-Scotty
Last Edited by scotty on Jan 18, 2006 1:35 AM
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C.J.
15 posts
Jan 18, 2006
5:13 AM
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Tony, Excellent post. I think what the guys are getting caught up on is what is and isn't a Birmingham Roller? Who should and should not use the term to describe their birds.
This entire strand has prooved one thing, every single person in here is extremely passionate about their hobby. Now if everyone of us took the energy spent in here and used to get young kids out of infront of the computer and under a kit of birds the hobby would be jammed packed with young flyer's. Guys you need to agree to disagree on this one. All this is doing is getting everyone pissed off and feelings are being hurt. Lets change the subject.
So how many birds is everyone going to raise this year?
Just My Two Cents !!
C.J.
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knaylor
50 posts
Jan 18, 2006
5:31 AM
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Alot of you are totally missing the point. No one ( Not Kenny or Scott or anyone else) is trying to tell someone what type of pigeons to have. It is simply trying to get guys to call them what they are. rare colored birds are crosses. That is a fact!!!!! If not then why do they only show up in a few lofts? Kevin
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Gregg
9 posts
Jan 18, 2006
6:05 AM
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Brian,
I have been sitting back enjoying your perspective on things since I first really noticed you on Earl's list reference a certain southern disagreement. You have made a huge contribution with your last post. I know you addressed it to Cliff, but it is a lesson for everyone on any list anywhere. It is something that I have been trying to preach and practice since I got into these forums. I too have walked away a time or two. There are a few times that I wish that I had. That urge to go for the jugular is strong indeed, even in this old body. But if we don't show RESPECT, we will never earn it.
Thanks for putting another light on the word.
Gregg.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
433 posts
Jan 18, 2006
6:58 AM
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Thanks CJ,
Hey Knaylor, the debate has evolved to a point where what is really being discussed is this: “are BR and rare color rollers of equal quality or not”? As far as I can tell, this is what the jist of Scotts challenge to Cliff was all about.
I made the previous post with the intention of addressing what I believe is the reason people are fascinated with the roller at all, and that is the fact that that darn bird does somersaults in the air! I mean, what kinda bird does that?
Every time I ship birds from the post office, someone in line inevitably asks me what’s in the box? I explain that these are pigeons that roll. This leads to other questions and before you know it, anyone within earshot is listening to me talk about rollers and what we do with them (backyard hobbyists, lawn shows, nationwide and international flying competitions). Maybe I should start handing out business cards…hmmm…Anyways
Colors don’t even come up in this discussion as it’s that the pigeons can do somersaults so fast it looks like a spinning ball that hold anybodies attention.
I myself don’t really care what color a bird is. If a breeder wants to work with color rollers or not that’s his/her choice. It’s all about the roll.
If the BR is a genetic breed with unique physical and performance characteristics culminating in the superior roll then it will dominate the national, international and local flys backing the position/arguments made from certain breeders in this and other threads.
If the BR is any roller which spins with inconceivable rapidity some distance like a spinning ball then we will eventually begin to see entire color bred kits dominating the national, international and local flys as their performance abilities will propel them out front and dominate, backing the position/argument of certain other breeders in this debate.
At this time it would seem that a BR is a genetic breed with unique physical and performance characteristics as this is what dominates the flys today (not kits full of the colors in question).
My point is that eventually the market place (the buyers of rollers) will decide what kind of roller is worth owning (maybe it already has…) based on success in the air, not a debate on a forum.
If people want to debate what is and is not a Birmingham roller based on color or performance or both, that’s fine. Do it with civility and be ready to be questioned and possibly hammered for what you post. (Hammer Back! LOL)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Ballrollers
247 posts
Jan 18, 2006
8:26 AM
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Brian, Thanks for the words of wisdom. Nice piece of work. That post is probably the best advice I have seen anywhere on any list for me and, like Gregg said, for all the men in this hobby. I promise to take it to heart, in the spirit it was given, and to re-read it in my moments of greatest frustration. Thank you for caring...for the hobby and for the men engaged in it so passionately. YITS Cliff
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