|
The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
There Are No Facts In The BR Debate
There Are No Facts In The BR Debate
Page:
1
2
3
4
5
Mongrel Lofts
236 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:05 PM
|
Allan,
Spoken like a true NPRA member.. Thanks for making it all clear for us.. KGB
|
Mongrel Lofts
238 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:11 PM
|
I just wanted to make sure this post didn't get deleted.. This is the truth of it guys.. This is the difference between Birmingham roller breeders and color breeders.. This is the kind of thinking that says there is no such thing as a Birmingham roller,, Of course not, they are all pigeons,, CHING GOW!! LOL KGB
Tony,
Pigeons are of one species just as humans are of one species. Within those species there are many different races (in humans) or breeds (in Pigeons)
Your question can be answered with a simple analogy. If a Dutch man and all of his ancestry was Dutch with the exception of his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great Grandfather who was a black African, is he considered to be Dutch or of mixed race?
That's the way most of these colorful Rollers are. For example, we have evidence of Almond being in the Birmingham Roller at least 50 generations ago. Most of the more modern factors have at least 10 generations which is more than my imaginary Dutch friend had.
Are Show Rollers not Show Rollers because they introduced the Modena into them many generations ago for bigger size?
Are Indian Fantails not Indian Fantails because 10-20 generations ago they introduced another breed into them to change the standard?
Genetic experts say it takes 8 generations to breed out every trace of the other breed. Go on the genetic forum and ask them. Almost every breed of Pigeon has had other breeds introduced into it along the line, many of those projects are going on as we speak. Does that mean we have no true breed of Pigeon?.. People need to get out more and see what's going on in the world.
I admire the men who gave us such wonderful color factors in the Birmingham Roller and were able to keep the roll in them to where they even are winning the World Cup. You can't argue with success. I call it progress.
If these extremist's ideas are correct, I'll have to tell my Dutch friend he's not really Dutch, he's just a mongrel.
----------
Alan
|
Alan Bliven
343 posts
Dec 03, 2006
5:52 PM
|
I might add that I asked every single board member of the National Birmingham Roller Club about the rare colored Rollers and everyone of them said they did not agree with the extremists that are persecuting Birmingham Rollers of rare color factors. And everyone of the board members said they are true, blue Birmingham Rollers.
----------
Alan
|
Alohazona
209 posts
Dec 03, 2006
6:08 PM
|
Guys,
Trying to find out where the BR originated is pointless,its here ,has been here,and will be here far into the future.Undoutably it was mixed with other types of pigeons as it originated around Birmingham.A true spinning roller is what we all crave,and performs with the minimum of faults throughout its life.That type of bird with the most desireable attributes for performance,coupled with the ability to reproduce itself or close to itself,IS THE IDEAL WE ALL SEEK.
If pedigrees are unimportant for nothing but record keeping,than its background the birmingham roller is regardless.Knowing its [BR] origin won't make me fly,train and feed it differently from how I've figured out on my own.Have fun with your birds, be glad you have them,train and breed them to be the best.Give competions a try for a while,it makes you a better breeder and manager.When the Politics as usual gets to ridiculous and becomes a waste of your time,fly for pleasure and the ability to put a smile on someones face....Aloha,Todd
|
Mongrel Lofts
239 posts
Dec 03, 2006
6:10 PM
|
Hi Allan,
Have you ever flown in a NBRC fly or are you even a member of the NBRC?? Just wondering. KGB
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
874 posts
Dec 03, 2006
6:54 PM
|
Todd.Good point.I can guarantee you I have better rollers today that what I got from Pensom in 1962.Not saying his rollers was bad but I have sure learned better management especially since getting a computer and as you said flying in a couple competitions.One thing Competition will do is make you look at the little fine things that you normally wouldn't look for.Always searching for a little extra speed or have a little tighter roll etc.
Kenny.I will agree it is not a Pure Birmingham Roller but it still is a True Birmingham Roller in performance.Thats as close to agreeing as I will admit to for now.LOL.David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
869 posts
Dec 03, 2006
7:12 PM
|
You guys need to chill out. LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 7:21 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
870 posts
Dec 03, 2006
7:18 PM
|
So far we have 1 piece of information that no one seems to dispute, that Lewis Wright is credited with the following quote provided by David Strait: "A True Birmingham Roller turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity like a spinning ball for a considerable distance."
Unless someone can come up with a valid reason that this quote should not be attributed to Lewis Wright, please say so now...Scott, Cliff, anyone?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 7:19 PM
|
Batlizard
13 posts
Dec 03, 2006
8:02 PM
|
Velo99,
Could not have said it better myself. " The NBRC has the standard for the competetion side of our sport."
I'd like to explore more on what the standard is for the NBRC and the competiton side of the sport it.
If you're breeding and training your birds for competition, I'm sure there are many here than expound on this topic. Perhaps a different thread.
That being said, is the NBRC all about the competition aspect of the Birmingham Roller? Is there any other aspect of this bird?
Rocy
|
Phantom1
145 posts
Dec 03, 2006
8:21 PM
|
WOW!!!! A lot of reading to catch up on and I'm lost already...
Just wanted to add...since I've been sort of pulled over already....
Somewhere on this forum...a ways back in the pages here....here if I had crossed a roller with a Scandaroon and it rolled to the "loose standard" of a Birmingham Roller that anyone and everyone would classify it as such.
I'm looking forward to reading more and see everyone's points of view on this entire topic.
EXCELLENT topic!!! No sarcasim in this what so ever!
Eric
|
Phantom1
146 posts
Dec 03, 2006
8:39 PM
|
Tony et al,
Again no disrepect to the forum, but if I myself were to put feathers on my arms and stand backside out of a plain cruising at 5000 feet and leaped backwards while pulling my knees in to assemble the fetal position and began turnging backflips. At about 4000 feet I bet I'd look like a bird spinning like a ball! LOL!!!!
In my opinion, it's simply a loose interpritation, an observation if you will. What sucks is, that there's just not a STANDARD to breed towards. It comes down to (1) Do you fly your birds (2) Do you compete in the Fall Fly or the World Cup, and lastly (3) If you do not, you do NOT have Birmingham Rollers...or otherwise..your birds are culls.
This, in my opinion, is poor way to the promote the hobby, or the sport...which ever road you're on.
Tony, you yourself (last time we spoke) did not fly competitively. Does this make your birds any less than they are? You're flying them? You're raising them? I've never been to your lofts, but then again it's none of my business. I've not been invited LOL! Like to meet you someday ya Meathead LOL!!! It doesn't make what you do as a business or otherwise any less of a meaningful part of the promotion of this hobby.
I have my opinion about the BR. I have my opinion about the "colored roller" LOL! I also have my opinion about the Scandaroon. I'll refrain from elaborating about each :-)
Eric
P.S - Kenny Ol'Buddy - sure hope you don't have any Dutch in your background LOL!!! Or African!!! I'm rolling!!! Get it? Rolling.....Vrooooooooooooom!!!!!! All in fun...
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 8:49 PM
|
luis
5 posts
Dec 03, 2006
9:11 PM
|
Good enough Tony and good luck with the experiment.Myself i will stick to type and hope that in a few years they can do some real damage.
Type being a short bird leghtwise,short keel that pitches sharply to the vent bones.Rounded chest with good muscle,short wing bones.Short narrow primaries with shorter secondaries with all around tight feathering and a strong back.Also alert and aware.This to me is a BR bred to spin.
Good luck with the debate.
--------------------------
Luis
|
fhtfire
682 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:05 PM
|
BAM....you nailed it luis...you have just given the standard of a Brimingham Roller on the Perch....and Bluesman gave the standard of a Birmingham roller in the air. Color is irrelevent...it is what it does in the air! Nothing does it like a Birmingham roller....just like no dog hits the water like a field champion Lab.....my point is....We all know what a Birmingham roller looks like on the perch...but there are other pigeons that have the same look...and there are different strains of the Birmingham roller that look a little different.....I mean...I had quite a few strains or families or what have you when I first started....and they all looked different on the perch...Tony's birds looke way different then Scotts, and Morts look close to Tonys...but real close to Chucks they all have there little different characteristics on the perch...but you put them in the air and the best of all strains...you can't tell them apart..meaning in the air they are all doing it...like a Birmingham roller should do it. The standard is what the bird does in the air....I have a super chicken..and nick likes to call it...this bird does not look like a "Birmingham roller" on the perch...it is big and I mean big...it is not cobby....it has a skinny neck...gangly legs....does not have the Brimingham look in the eye....he is Black as night and when he is in the air..he rolls and rolls hard...and you can't tell him from the other Blacks that resemble the "norm" of a birmingham roller when they are in the kit...even though he is HUGE on the perch he looks normal in the air...my point is....never judge a book by its cover....it is what it does in the air that makes it a birmingham roller...no other bird does it like a BR.....
when people ask you what a birmingham roller is...do you tell them ...well it is a small bird with a short keel, kind of cobby with the tail fethers coming together tight, and the flights just a tad short of the tail, with an apple body, that stands tall, with a strong back and an eye that is piercing and shows intelligence...they come in a broad arangement of colors and are sort of small and compact compared to your average street pigeon...
Hell no...you tell people that they roll...the drop like a ball...anywhere from 10-100' they spin so fast it is like 6-10 revolutions a second and they do it together as a team...you fly them in teams of 15-20 birds and they must stay real tight and fly together and when they pull the pin and roll fast and deep...the snap out and fly back to the group....it looks like an explosion goes off like fire works when they break...well breaking is what we call it when they all roll together...well they don't all roll together....but sometimes they do..sometimes just one rolls but then 10 will roll together...and then they all get back together again...the goal is to get them to all roll together and stay as a team with no birds flying by themselves...well when I say roll I mean..the put ther wings back and put ther e head back like they are touching there tail and they just start rolling I mean fast...like a ball spinning and falling out of the sky and then BAM they pop out like they are a rock star......get my point...the standard is what the breed is known for....ROLLING FAST AND HARD LIKE A SPINNING BALL......that is the performance standard...the show standard is what the bird looks like...
Just like there is a standard for a lab..they come in Gold (yellow), Black and Chocolate...they have to look a certain way in post cards, calanders, show pen...the big square head with the medium snout and those gentle eyes....but they also have a field standard...But what are labs known for...HUNTING...especially duck hunting...they have special fur...they have webbed feet....they love the water...and they can hold an egg in ther mouth without breaking it...to fetch game without drawing blood...they fetch everything....so that is the standard...No other dog looks like a lab...they have a look about them....but there are some out there that do not meet the standard..they have pointy noses and just don't look like your text book lab..but it is still a lab..This deabate will never end...the standard is what it is known for...what it does in the air.....But the roller does have certain colors that pertain to the breed....just like a lab....so if you have a lab and it looks like a german shepard and fetches and hunts like a lab..but looks like a shepard...well it is no longer a lab...because of the standard that we know. The standard is there....Luis explained the perch standard, Bluesman explained the performance standard....and we all know the color standards from experience. and barless lace whathave you is not one of them....the perch standard for the show pen, the performacne standard for the true BR..the color standard is just that it is not pure...What do you think woudl happen at a show or a lab field trial and the dog and a pedigree from two lab parents mother was a yellow and the father was a Black and the lab had spots like a dalmation...well everyone knows that what a lab looks like..the colors that are "lab" colors..well guess what...even if that dog could do everything a lab could...would it be able to enter a lab competition...NOPE..I bet not...even though there is the pedigree and the mom and dad...there would be a lot of eye brows raised....just like when you see a certain color of BR...get my point.....there are standards as a breed and then there are standars of what it is known for in performance. right down to the color....
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 10:15 PM
|
W@yne
41 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:18 PM
|
Lets just call this a new breed
AMERICAN COLORED BIRMINGHAM ROLLER
Solves any arguing and you still got the birmingham roller name . hey presto!!!!!
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 10:34 PM
|
motherlodelofts
1025 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:30 PM
|
" might add that I asked every single board member of the National Birmingham Roller Club about the rare colored Rollers and everyone of them said they did not agree with the extremists that are persecuting Birmingham Rollers of rare color factors. And everyone of the board members said they are true, blue Birmingham Rollers.
----------
Alan "
Allan have you ever here the term "politicaly correct" what did you expect them to say LOL How many of them have them in thier loft ? theres your answer
Scott
|
motherlodelofts
1026 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:44 PM
|
By golly Wayne I think you nailed it LOL.
It all boils down to this, the guys that have birds that have been purposely and obviously crossed with other breeds say there is no breed.
The guys that have respect for the breed, well we know where they stand , and yes the breed is live and well in this country , just not on the darkside
Here is a little bit of info, Birmingham Rollers have 12 tail feathers.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2006 10:51 PM
|
knaylor
325 posts
Dec 03, 2006
10:48 PM
|
Eric, its not about competition. There are many well respected men in this country that dont compete.
|
Phantom1
147 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:04 PM
|
Kevin,
I don't compete. Am I one of them? Truth is, you don't me but others do. Am I a "fine man in the hobby"? Just wondering.
You're right though...however, I've been told personally...on this forum...that if I don't compete with my birds, they are unjustiable, not worth mention, and culls. Only...and I'll say again...Only...because I don't compete.
I completely understand this believe it or not. Why would anyone in the competition world acquire birds from someone that didn't compete???? Again, completely understandable. If you're on the path for competition, why bother with someone's birds that were bred by someone that didn't compete! This is the logic behind what I was told. I understand it, but cannot respect it. Doesn't mean there isn't validity to what I was told. It only shows the difference between the "Comp" mentality and the "Hobbiest" mentality.
Eric
|
knaylor
326 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:11 PM
|
You're right though...however, I've been told personally...on this forum...that if I don't compete with my birds, they are unjustiable, not worth mention, and culls. Only...and I'll say again...Only...because I don't compete. I would say that if this was told to you then they are wrong. I do not know you so I really cant answer the other. Do you fly your birds? You can show people how good they are by having them over from time to time and show how they perform.
|
luis
6 posts
Dec 03, 2006
11:41 PM
|
I like your style Wayne but as you can see controversy sells.This debate(thread)could run endlessly.I jump into the CP every chance i get hoping this expirienced guys put some good info on here but it seems they rather spend their time debating and to be honest i like a little debate emphasis on "little" but when it drags this much.............. MAN IT'S AMAZING.
|
J_Star
711 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:16 AM
|
Wayne, we need to call them the “Bling Blings of Birmingham Rollers (BBBR).” They sure are fancy looking on the perch.
Eric, you can have a top notch birds without being involved with comps, but comps will aid you to achieve top notch birds and to enhance the quality of your birds. Since we all strive to win requires you to always want to make your birds perform better and better from season to season. If people tell you otherwise, it is just for them to justify and want to attach a label to their birds’ worth.
For the rest of the viewing community and posters, if you don’t like educational or non-educational debates, just stay clear from those kinds of posts. Believe or not, those kind of posts are every educational and bring out the dirty politics of this hobby to the surface and make people well aware of the issues that need to address correctly when visiting somebody’s loft or on community forum. From those kinds of debate, you will learn and understand your friends point view and where they stand on certain issues and their unspoken or undeclared agendas.
Jay
|
bman
118 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:02 AM
|
Hey Paul F.
I got a brittany that weighs 35 lbs soaking wet that kind handle 3 blind retreives and launch 15ft on a retreive.
Maybe I should paint him black?LMAO
----------
Ron
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
878 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:23 AM
|
Paul.If that Black lab was hiding something under that Black shiny coat would the judge be able to tell the difference.You know how Spread works.LOL. David
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
871 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:33 AM
|
Hello Eric, just for more clarification, I was invited to join multiple flying clubs while I lived in California, but ended up flying with one based on a friends referral.
With each fly my score improved over the one before. I was just too busy to submerge myself into a club and its schedule to continue, especially as I knew I was moving to MO.
This year (06) I have flown in the NBRC Fall Fly and while I did not score the points I expected out of my team, they did score multipliers of 1.5 for depth and 1.7 (I think only 1 scored higher 1.8) for quality. A multiplier of 2.0 is the highest one can score.
I am gearing up two kits for the World Cup and plan to fly my birds in it.
Just to add a little more to the record! LOL
---------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 6:40 AM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
872 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:38 AM
|
Ahhh, democracy in action. Everyone has an opinion. Now you know why our founding fathers established a republic! LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
879 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:03 AM
|
Tony.Your 1.7 was the highest in your region.As I said in another post I study stats but Scott has me confused on how the multipliers work.Either way I think you done really good and shows the quality of rollers you are raising.And I think it was your first NBRC Fly? David
|
ROLLERMAN
50 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:19 AM
|
compete compete compete like a broken record
who do we have to prove are birds too ?
Are selfs no one else.
do you realy think i give a rats--- what you think of my birds
you dont like people that have colored birds
you dont like people who are back yard flyers
tony why dont you just tell us were not welcome and get it over. this tread started out as a witch hunt and it still is a witch hunt. im done with this room
al
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
875 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:39 AM
|
Hey Al, EVERYONE IS WELCOME. I really don't care what you do in your backyard with your rollers. Just do it!
I was responding to a post by Eric, we have talked before and I thought I should add something to our conversation to clarify his post somewhat, that's all.
Also, I made the decision as a business owner to participate and support the national/international flys by flying my birds.
I also hope my current and future Ruby Roller buyers will appreciate and feel comfortable with the fact that these birds are of competition quality and at the very least shut up the couple of guys who seem to resent that I successfully offer young birds from quality stock.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Mongrel Lofts
242 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:51 AM
|
Ahhh while ROLLERMAN waits on the WHAAAAAAAMBULANCE!! Wayne gets the prize!! Call them new crossed up rare colored roller what they are.. A newly created breed of rare colored rollers created here in America. The guys over in England don't cross rollers on other breeds for Color patterns and factors.. If the rare colored roller guys would just name and claim the new breed all could enjoy and respect the new breed.. Its the fact they insist on crossing them up, changing the looks, adding in a gene pool from other breeds and then call them the same as the Birmingham roller that causes all the controversy.. We have talked about this before.. Name it and claim it and we can all enjoy it! Keep trying to live on an established breeds Reputation and ruin its heritage and history and you will always have a divide in the ranks.. Those are facts Men, Like them or not.. KGB
|
bman
120 posts
Dec 04, 2006
8:55 AM
|
Kenny (KGB)
Do you really think a new name will put this to rest?
I personally beleive it won't.The "witch hunt" will probably be continued by some. I don't see any hope for a cease fire.Juast a honest question.
Ron
----------
Ron
|
MCCORMICKLOFTS
834 posts
Dec 04, 2006
10:03 AM
|
Ron, just do like I do. I call my rollers American Competition Rollers. I could give a flying F%^k where they orginated from or who became famous because of them. Mine are rollers, 95 percent of which are what most consider Birmingham rollers, but that name means little to me. All I care about is the competition aspect of it and breeding good rollers. I leave the blood policing to others while I breed ACRs instead of Birmingham Rollers. You won't hear anyone bitching about ACRs.
|
Phantom1
148 posts
Dec 04, 2006
12:12 PM
|
Tony,
Glad to see you got'em up in the air and enjoyed some of the competition aspect of the hobby. The last time we spoke you weren't actively competing. You mentioned it was a goal of yours, so again, I'm happy for you that you were able to engage in the activity this year!
Eric
|
Ballrollers
499 posts
Dec 04, 2006
1:02 PM
|
Absolutely, Ron. The witch hunt would just continue, and with more intensity, to be expected.
Tony,
You asked for references and more concrete data on this issue. I will post the information you requested as I generate it over a period of time....I would simply request that you leave it on this thread in the proper context and not remove it to another site. The readers can come to their own conclusions.
In a book called , "The Highflyers' Guide, Management of Tipplers, Tunblers, Rollers and Cumlets", by George Smith in 1901, Leicester: Alfred Tacey, p.50 Section titled "Rollers", "A first class kit should consist of long and Short rollers, mad tumblers, spinners and twizzlers, and those, if flown together regularly, will all work together and fly in good style for about an hour.......the long rollers will generally roll through the others, while the short rollers,spinners and twizzlers will work together at the same moment. The mad tumblers will turn a number of single summersaults as quick as lightening....A kit of this description requires superior judgement in breeding, training, and selection."
More to come,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 1:24 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
878 posts
Dec 04, 2006
1:51 PM
|
Hey Cliff, THANKS!
I will leave your posts untouched. This is the stuff I was looking for. Keep going!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Mongrel Lofts
245 posts
Dec 04, 2006
3:45 PM
|
Hi Ron,
The answer to your question is absolutely it would end this debate.. As Brian or BMC points out, who can argue with a stated new breed of roller like ACR's.. If the guys breeding the new cross colored rollers called them American colored competition rollers.. I think we all could enjoy the efforts of those working to create the breed ACCR or what ever they named their breed.. Honestly, it would end the debate over night! KGB
|
Ballrollers
500 posts
Dec 04, 2006
4:24 PM
|
Thanks, Tony. Here's another interesting excerpts from the same reference as above....page 64. "To start a large kit of rollers for a fly is a difficult job, more so if there are some deep rollers amongst them, for they go off with plenty of life and energy, often spinning, tumbling, or rolling, as the case may be, before they get away from the housetops, consequently your cannot be too careful or you will sometimes have some of your BEST BIRDS (my caps) roll and bump themselves in surrounding buildings.....
Yearbook of the United Roller Club of America
1936-37
p. 15......The roller is but a sub-variety of the Tumbler. The Tumbler has been known for ages in the Far East, through the continent of Europe and Africa, extending to the British Isles where it has been perfected by the English fanciers....There was known two hundred or more years ago in the British Isles a medium sized bird of many colors called the English Tumbler, its origin uncertain. It is known that the Crusaders brought many Tumbling pigeons from the Orient which were crossed into this English breed. In two portions of England then, this Tumbler has been cultivated extensively. First around Birmingham were the whims or fancy of the breeders produced a pigeon remarkable for rolling and flying, and around Bristol where the birds were cultivated for long and cloud flying properties.... From the first have come the Birmingham Roller and from the second we have the West of England Tumbler...There was found in Holland a variety of the Tumbler which was chiefly known for its long smooth feathers upon its feet. In 1720, Brent, an English writer brought twenty Dutch Rollers from Holland and gave them to the fanciers around Birmingham to cross upon their strains to improve their tumbling. This is why the Birmingham Roller to this day (1936) may be found both clean-legged and with grouse muffs....Crossing in these long bodied, long headed and dove headed birds, while it improved their rolling properties, changed the character and type of the Birminghams. The original birds were pearl eyed while those brought over by Brent were orange, sandy, bull, broken and mouse eyed specimens. We get in breeding today, birds showing properties of all these birds....Whims of the fanciers has dictated what has been bred for....Many standards have been promulgated from time to time, but none of the larger clubs here have yet adopted one. The author has bred the Roller since 1881, both for performance, flying, and COLOR (my caps) properties...The author then lists a number of items recommended in the breeding, training, and flying of Birmingham rollers, including the following: "Don't cross strains promiscuously. If you do you will ruin many a fine strain. Crossing upon other varieties can be done, but many years must intervene before the ideal can be reached....A cross upon an Inside Tumlber will give you birds that will roll, yes, but they have a fear that prevents them from becoming good flyers....Crossing upon Orientals will give strong hardy flyers and good oerformers as a rule, but never good kit birds...Crossing upon the common C.L. Tumbler will give you a nice lot of house warmers, splendid in coloring, but not the flyer or roller. Crossing upon Tipplers and Highflyers ruins type and performance..."
Remember, these were pre-Pensom days in Birmingham in the development of the breed. Sure sounds to me like we are dealing with a mongrel breed from the get go; one that has been crossed and re-crossed "at the whims of the fancier" for three to four hundred years. Why get all bent out of shape about the additional crosses that occurred in middle part of the 1900's to produce the families of Birmingham rollers with additional color modifiers that we see today?
More to Come.....
YITS,
Cliff
|
motherlodelofts
1027 posts
Dec 04, 2006
4:34 PM
|
Cliff what breeds weren't developed out of other breeds, DUH
|
Ballrollers
501 posts
Dec 04, 2006
4:52 PM
|
"The Pigeon Loft",November, 1945, advertisements:
"BIRMINGHAM IMPERIAL WHITINGHAM ROLLERS. Birds that fly, kit, spin. None better flown. Satisfaction guaranteed. Ralph E. Brown"
"BUKOVINA BIRMINGHAMS. Wonderful long fluers and spinners in beautiful solids, mixed, and mottles. Money-back guarantee. $5.00 per pair up. Adirondack Roller Loft, Gonverneur, NY"
"Bukovina used to be a province of North Rumania but is now a part of Russia...Approximately thirty-five years ago, Lee Crandall, curator of birds at the Bronx Park in New York City, brought back rollers from Bukovina....pearl-eyed, beautifully colored Orientals thich flew long and high, Best of all they had a fast tight spin in their performance....and mated six hens to six of his best Birmingham Roller cocks....."
Yep, sure sounds like a PURE breed doesn't it guys?
YITS,
Clif
More to come
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 5:29 PM
|
Ballrollers
502 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:28 PM
|
"History of the Pensom Roller Club by Bob Evans"-
....These birds were shipped to this country by Wm. H. Pensom...from his lofts, and others from the lofts of well-known fanciers such as Skidmore, Payne, and Harry Bellfield who had been the leading breeder for some forty years prior to this time...The offspring of these imported birds in America were advertised and sold under the name of "Pensom Rollers" and became very popular because they produced a high average of tight, deep spinners, the best of which represented the true Birmingham Roller as is was then known in Birmingham England.....This club is not trying to tell, or indicate, what anyone should do, and admits that there are many high quality A-1 rollers being bred that as far as the breeder knows never had a drop of Old Black Country Roller Blood in their veins, and they satisfy their owners."
Guys,
I would say that this is the point in time that the "purist" camp would select as "from this point forward, only these birds and their descendants could earn the title of the true Birmingham Roller that should be kept "pure". However that is strictly an arbitrary decision of "purity", and not evidenced by the facts surrounding the history of the development of the breed, or the general practices in breeding and crossing multiple breeds up to that particular point, or by genetics and science. There were many other roller breeders in Birmingham; the type of the "true BR" was all over the place depending on who you are reading at the time. It is also interesting that, knowing this, Evans and the Pensom Roller club, made no particular claim on breed as a whole; most referring to them as "Pensoms". They made no claim that only Pensoms were the true Birmingham Rollers; nor did they try to tell others in the hobby what they should do. There are those today who would try to eliminate the Whittinghams and Fireballs from the Birmingham Roller family to which they truly belong (all being derived from the same ancestry). These men would adopt the narrow and blinded point of view that only the Pensom strain represents the "true" Birmingham Roller. It is once again an arbitrary opinion; a line drawn in the sand; and has little basis in the facts surrounding the development and early days of the Birmingham.
"Birmingham Rollers were spreading throughout Canada and then into the United States long before Bill Pensom was born...Each of these early imports then became part of a breeder-directed program. Each breeder impacts his flock and by selection developes his own version of this exciting breed of bird." Joe Qunn, "The Search for Those Fabulous Whittinghams", p. 6. QB&Q Publishing, 2006
Wendall Levi (The Pigeon, 1941) indicated, "at the Lacaster PA show (1881) Birmingham Rollers were exhibited, under that name, by J E Schum, H. Hirsch, and C. Lippold."
Gentlemen, the Birmingham Roller breed is a widely distributed, varied, gentically diverse breed of rollers, and not limited to one man's particular strain, or the narrow opinion espoused of a few roller men with an agenda.
JMHO,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 5:55 PM
|
knaylor
327 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:35 PM
|
Question if all of the Birminham rollers are crossed then why are there the rare colored birds only showing up in a few certain lofts? Heck KGB has inbred more than anyone I know and there should have been oe or two pop of since they are all crossed??
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 5:36 PM
|
knaylor
328 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:46 PM
|
You mean by selecting the ones that are crossed for color??
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
884 posts
Dec 04, 2006
5:52 PM
|
Knaylor.I know KGB well enough to know that if one did pop up it would have been culled on the spot.LOL. David
|
motherlodelofts
1028 posts
Dec 04, 2006
6:31 PM
|
Cliff, what breeds were not developed from other breeds ? DUH
Where did the Birmingham Roller come from , it came from the tumbler breeds, which one's in particular ? no one Knows.
Something somewhere showed the early timers something different, so they selected and bred for it and they progressed it.
When did it become a breed ? it became a breed when the masses started accepting it as such , they were called Birmingham Rollers due to the region that these birds were being developed from much like most breeds, when did the Homer , Lahore , Modena ect ect or even the Great Dane become a breed ? there is no rubber stamp, pretty basic stuff.
As for the color breeders, yes they are still crossing other breeds into the Birmingham Roller even now as we speak , that is why it's called the "darkside" , and there is a reason that guys that are serious with the birds don't color breed , because it takes them in the wrong direction,if the oldtimers (the true founders) were color breeders we would not have what we have today , and for the most part the only one's trying to confuse the new guys are the one's that have or are crossbreeding for color and or those that have the mongral birds from or down from these guys,funny ,no one questions it except for these guys here hmmm go figure.
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2006 7:57 PM
|
Mongrel Lofts
247 posts
Dec 04, 2006
7:18 PM
|
Cliff,
Great research on guys who crossed up birds to make the Birmingham.. So, can you say this is how the Birmingham roller was created or is this just certain individuals who happen to have got recorded in that time.. I mean lets go up to today.. If you wrote down what I breed and believe you would have one idea of what the Birmingham roller is correct? Then if we went to say James Turner or Cliff Ball we could say, the breed was created by using some Mondena, swallow,ice pigeon or other caged breed to create the Birmingham roller right? The point is, these are not facts on how the breed was created, but recorded incidents in individuals lofts and what they had done.. Cliff, at what point do we have a breed? NEVER? According to your records and idea's put forward here,, We never have a breed, we just cross what we like and call them Birmingham rollers.. Birmingham roller is a known breed to many,, to others its just another pigeon that can be crossed on other pigeons to make pretty colors and call them the same Breed..No different from the Birmingham roller, as it is not a breed any how.. I guess we all have to decide where we draw that line in the sand.. Breed, or just another pigeon to be mixed and messed with.. Your point should serve the latter well in making others believe this point of view.. Good for you.. KGB
PS. David, your only half correct about knowing what KGB would do if one of them Mongrel crossed up colored birds popped up in my family of birds,, TRUTH is,, I would kill the bird and every bird in my loft related to it.. I would then call everyone who has a bird from me and tell them they needed to kill their birds from me related to that Mongrel.. That is because I only want to breed Birmingham rollers and I'm not alone.. For me,, there is a breed Birmingham roller and I will go to my grave breeding Birmingham rollers.. So you had it partly correct David.. KGB
|
maxspin
61 posts
Dec 05, 2006
6:24 AM
|
Cliff,
This sounds like some of the CROSSES that went into making the American High Flying Roller.
What is your point?
Keith
"The Pigeon Loft",November, 1945, advertisements:
"BIRMINGHAM IMPERIAL WHITINGHAM ROLLERS. Birds that fly, kit, spin. None better flown. Satisfaction guaranteed. Ralph E. Brown"
"BUKOVINA BIRMINGHAMS. Wonderful long fluers and spinners in beautiful solids, mixed, and mottles. Money-back guarantee. $5.00 per pair up. Adirondack Roller Loft, Gonverneur, NY"
"Bukovina used to be a province of North Rumania but is now a part of Russia...Approximately thirty-five years ago, Lee Crandall, curator of birds at the Bronx Park in New York City, brought back rollers from Bukovina....pearl-eyed, beautifully colored Orientals thich flew long and high, Best of all they had a fast tight spin in their performance....and mated six hens to six of his best Birmingham Roller cocks....."
Yep, sure sounds like a PURE breed doesn't it guys?
|
knaylor
329 posts
Dec 05, 2006
9:07 AM
|
KGB, LOL thats what i was going to tell him. That he doesnt know you. The whole family would be culled!!
|
W@yne
43 posts
Dec 05, 2006
9:46 AM
|
William Pensom created the birmingham roller recognised standard as far as i am concerned in todays pigeons. Correct birds was crossed many years ago to produce the birmingham roller but only performance birds was added to get the quality of roll in the pigeon. Not once did Bill Pensom say he added color to make the birds look pretty.Adding modena for color and calling them Birmingham Rollers tut tut tut.You guys will have Bill Pensom turning in his grave.THATS JUST UNDOING ALL THE HARD WORK THAT HAS BEEN PUT INTO THIS BREED OF PIGEON my opinion
regards
W@yne uk
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 10:50 AM
|
RollerJoe
11 posts
Dec 05, 2006
12:39 PM
|
Brother Wayne i'm pretty sure mr pensom was cremated i'll have to check with pastor David as for the rollers i think the easyest,best and the most modern way forward would be to just clone the best birds we have.Just my thoughts so fly on my brothers praise the lord Roller Joseph.
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
892 posts
Dec 05, 2006
1:14 PM
|
Wayne.Better slow down a little before you bust a blood vessel.LOL.
I sure have never heard of anyone breeding a Modena to a Birmingham Roller.Just when KGB makes reference of it.Maybe he can give you some names of the ones doing this.
But even if there is a select few in the World doing this do you really think that it would be the undoing of the Birmingham Roller.If the Birmingham Roller is in that desperate shape that a few crossing other breeds into them is going to be their undoing then we have no hope anyway.
Trust me it has been going on every since the name Birmingham Roller was first conceived and has never hurt the breed yet.And it never will as long as each breeder keeps selecting for performance.The numbers of them are just to small. David
|
Ballrollers
505 posts
Dec 05, 2006
2:44 PM
|
"The Search for Those Fabulous Whittinghams", Joe Quinn, Chapter 2, Pedigree, Purity, and the Problem of a Standard, p.16-18.
"The rise of the pure Pensom image created a new gap in the informational base. The expansion of the pedigreed numbers came without any documentation of trial in the air as recommended throughout Pensom's work to insure that the bird in question was a Birmingham Roller of the Pure Pensom strain. ...Each breeder in the chain had a chance to make the cost of feed lower, by sending off the entire loft generation to the next Pure Pensom breeder in line....A review of the advertisements in several pigeon magazines since that time indicates a gradual increase in the use of the word "pure" and "pedigreed"....This wave of imports from Pensom found a willing market because it capitalized on the American penchant for Import status and Pedigree. The word pedigree(d) usually associated with the word "pure" is listed in almost all Pensom related adds....As the entire pigeon fancy developed genetic practices, these thousands of pedigree documents came under the scrutiny of knowledgeable breeders...The accuracy of ALL (my caps) pedigrees came into question when many errors were found in the chartings from prestigous lofts.......giving the PRC bands to anyone not in membership or compliance with the rules also represented a serious loss of purity....If the pedigree includes the important sire or dam, and is in fact in error, the purchaser's blood line is jeopardized....The difficulties were further complicated by the fact that most, if not all breeders, used an open loft as a breeding compartment....Does it matter if the pedigree is in error.....Are certain foundation birds important to any pigeon family? Of course the answer is a resounding 'Yes!'...."
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2006 3:27 PM
|
Post a Message
|
|
|